NPE From An Actual New To MMO Player.
Well yeah that was my question what is A.Net’s job here? Should they explain all the basics of RPGs? In this case.. good luck this will take a while. And will eat up a lot of ressources. I mean jesus.. what’s so wrong about figuring stuff out on your own.
It’s a bit of a game in itself is the thing. Some of the first game designers didn’t have to care a whole lot about player retention because there were few titles to begin with, so if you wanted to play games, you had to choose from one of the few titles available.
But now the market is absolutely flooded with options and companies are trying to pull in the crowd that used to stay away from games, in part because of the learning curve.
So now, they want players to not feel stupid trying to figure things out, while being surrounded by so many experienced gamers. But they also can’t spoonfeed everything or people will feel like they’re taking a class. It’s certainly not an exact science, but a lot of it is rooted in usability design; the customer who feels stupid and confused isn’t as likely to return as the customer who feels like the systems are intuitive and easy to grasp.
That’s where some people get confused about difficulty: Designers generally want games to be hard to master (it gives players a reason to stick around and keep trying) but it’s also ideal if the game is easy to learn. Otherwise, people may not stick around to master it at all.
So in answer to your thing about “figuring stuff out,” I think the key there is that people should get to discover the complexities on their own (such as the people who devise rotations for optimal damage output). It can be harmful to retention, however, if the basics are obscure at all.
Or words to that effect.
Slowing down the rate at which someone sees stuff does have a positive effect on a percentage of people. That is to say, information overload is a problem for many people and slowing down the rate at which information is offered is definitely one viable solution.
Yes, it does. However, changing where in the leveling process something appears, then changing the pace of leveling so that it takes about the same time to gain does nothing for those people.
What might help some people is seeing something in the level-up dialogue about new stuff. The NPE does.this a bit better than the old level up method. Ultimately, however, people don’t learn if they don’t take the time to see what newly introduced things do, no matter when they appear.
Slowing down the rate at which someone sees stuff does have a positive effect on a percentage of people. That is to say, information overload is a problem for many people and slowing down the rate at which information is offered is definitely one viable solution.
Yes, it does. However, changing where in the leveling process something appears, then changing the pace of leveling so that it takes about the same time to gain does nothing for those people.
What might help some people is seeing something in the level-up dialogue about new stuff. The NPE does.this a bit better than the old level up method. Ultimately, however, people don’t learn if they don’t take the time to see what newly introduced things do, no matter when they appear.
I don’t know that it does nothing for those people. The point is to offer it in sections, not all at once. Part of that is removing stuff from the map too. Less input. THa’ts all it takes. It doesn’t take long if you do it right.
Was I confused at some points? Of course! Did I die a lot? Hell I did! Did the hungry bunnies beat the crap out of me? You wouldn’t believe! And all of this felt great.
I really feel sorry for those bunnies. After the lobotomy they are a sad, lethargic bunch…
Except that the hungry bunnies do still knock you over if you’re not careful. I know this for a fact because it happened to my newest character the other day when I did that particular renown heart, which is now located at the bottom of the cliff in Taigan Groves. And, in point of fact, I have no quarrel with it. The renown heart as it was previously was quite tedious and the bunnies were really a bit too active, plus which you ran the risk of falling to your death if you were in the wrong spot. This new version goes a lot faster. (I also notice that nobody seems to have commented on the new state of the renown heart involving trade with the jotun. There are a lot of low-level enemies there now which makes the heart go much faster because you can kill them to get it done and get XP in the process, which IMO greatly improves that heart, which previously was the most boring one in Wayfarer.)
I completely agree some hearts needed work, however if “getting your house in order” is a basic premise they are addressing 2 years after release, they have some pretty big problems.
I’m completely of the mind that there is really no better MMORPG out there, least for me. But, now i tend to float in and out of this and other games and i’m usually a person that sticks with one for a pretty long time.
It makes me sad that the game and the team seem so mismanaged and that i just don’t feel that “deeper” connection. I’d really like to support the game, but in it’s current state and direction, i’m having a really hard time justifying it.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
Slowing down the rate at which someone sees stuff does have a positive effect on a percentage of people. That is to say, information overload is a problem for many people and slowing down the rate at which information is offered is definitely one viable solution.
Yes, it does. However, changing where in the leveling process something appears, then changing the pace of leveling so that it takes about the same time to gain does nothing for those people.
What might help some people is seeing something in the level-up dialogue about new stuff. The NPE does.this a bit better than the old level up method. Ultimately, however, people don’t learn if they don’t take the time to see what newly introduced things do, no matter when they appear.
I don’t know that it does nothing for those people. The point is to offer it in sections, not all at once. Part of that is removing stuff from the map too. Less input. THa’ts all it takes. It doesn’t take long if you do it right.
Not that we’ll ever see any exact metrics (outside of NCsoft reports), i’d really be curious if this improved purchase of the game post this last free weekend. Or if it actually improves players sticking with the game to 80. Especially since to 15 you go at a good clip, then it declines in speed fairly radically. I only know this based on feedback about the pacing, I have no intention of buying a new slot to experience it myself.
I really have a feeling keeping players engaged (the ones that actually want to play your game) is FAR more important than what they tried to do with the NPE. The gaming market is just too saturated to be worried about a new player experience 2 years out from release. I’d much rather tell the friends that left (which are ever growing) “they just introduced this really awesome thing with GW2, you have to log in and check it out”.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
Was I confused at some points? Of course! Did I die a lot? Hell I did! Did the hungry bunnies beat the crap out of me? You wouldn’t believe! And all of this felt great.
I really feel sorry for those bunnies. After the lobotomy they are a sad, lethargic bunch…
Except that the hungry bunnies do still knock you over if you’re not careful. I know this for a fact because it happened to my newest character the other day when I did that particular renown heart, which is now located at the bottom of the cliff in Taigan Groves. And, in point of fact, I have no quarrel with it. The renown heart as it was previously was quite tedious and the bunnies were really a bit too active, plus which you ran the risk of falling to your death if you were in the wrong spot. This new version goes a lot faster. (I also notice that nobody seems to have commented on the new state of the renown heart involving trade with the jotun. There are a lot of low-level enemies there now which makes the heart go much faster because you can kill them to get it done and get XP in the process, which IMO greatly improves that heart, which previously was the most boring one in Wayfarer.)
I completely agree some hearts needed work, however if “getting your house in order” is a basic premise they are addressing 2 years after release, they have some pretty big problems.
I’m completely of the mind that there is really no better MMORPG out there, least for me. But, now i tend to float in and out of this and other games and i’m usually a person that sticks with one for a pretty long time.
It makes me sad that the game and the team seem so mismanaged and that i just don’t feel that “deeper” connection. I’d really like to support the game, but in it’s current state and direction, i’m having a really hard time justifying it.
They released early as many MMOs do. This game as good enough to keep a lot of people over the two year period where they were fixing stuff. It’s a credit to the game.
Because they launched early they are playing catchup. Fixing stuff like this two years later is more normal for MMOs than not normal. Particularly big ones. Because the list of things to do is a long, long list. And hearts weren’t going to be their first priority…at least not until they launched in China and that had a whole lot of new people to do it for.
It’s just that their priorities are different from your priorities.
They released early as many MMOs do. This game as good enough to keep a lot of people over the two year period where they were fixing stuff. It’s a credit to the game.
Because they launched early they are playing catchup. Fixing stuff like this two years later is more normal for MMOs than not normal. Particularly big ones. Because the list of things to do is a long, long list. And hearts weren’t going to be their first priority…at least not until they launched in China and that had a whole lot of new people to do it for.
It’s just that their priorities are different from your priorities.
That end bit really wasn’t at all my point. Also, not my point about fixing bugs 2 years later, obviously if a bug isn’t game breaking it goes to the bottom of the list.
My entire point is the audience that has stuck with the game, paid money to buy your virtual goods, that are now disheartened by persistent bugs and smaller content updates, are the ones that need to be catered to.
And yes, it’s true that some games have gone back several years later and revamped the NPE, in almost every case, it’s shown to be a last ditch effort toward player retention to an audience that wasn’t going to stick with it anyway. This is regardless of the perceived fact that new games draw in the most numbers, giving you the most bang for your buck. Word of mouth from people that already play your game along with a positive public face are what bring people in. Right now, both of those areas need some work. I have no doubt, the NPE did improve “some” players initial experience, but are those players really your target audience? Maybe a small percentage of a much smaller base of people that will even make it to 80.
While they may have already done it for China, i still think it’s a waste of development dollars to try and fix something that was essentially not broken. I’m really of the mind that this is all about metrics and spreadsheets, which is why i feel their priorities are borked, not because they differ from mine, as i have no stake in their success to have any priorities. I just has opinions, and we know what those are like.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
They released early as many MMOs do. This game as good enough to keep a lot of people over the two year period where they were fixing stuff. It’s a credit to the game.
Because they launched early they are playing catchup. Fixing stuff like this two years later is more normal for MMOs than not normal. Particularly big ones. Because the list of things to do is a long, long list. And hearts weren’t going to be their first priority…at least not until they launched in China and that had a whole lot of new people to do it for.
It’s just that their priorities are different from your priorities.
That end bit really wasn’t at all my point. Also, not my point about fixing bugs 2 years later, obviously if a bug isn’t game breaking it goes to the bottom of the list.
My entire point is the audience that has stuck with the game, paid money to buy your virtual goods, that are now disheartened by persistent bugs and smaller content updates, are the ones that need to be catered to.
And yes, it’s true that some games have gone back several years later and revamped the NPE, in almost every case, it’s shown to be a last ditch effort toward player retention to an audience that wasn’t going to stick with it anyway. This is regardless of the perceived fact that new games draw in the most numbers, giving you the most bang for your buck. Word of mouth from people that already play your game along with a positive public face are what bring people in. Right now, both of those areas need some work. I have no doubt, the NPE did improve “some” players initial experience, but are those players really your target audience? Maybe a small percentage of a much smaller base of people that will even make it to 80.
While they may have already done it for China, i still think it’s a waste of development dollars to try and fix something that was essentially not broken. I’m really of the mind that this is all about metrics and spreadsheets, which is why i feel their priorities are borked, not because they differ from mine, as i have no stake in their success to have any priorities. I just has opinions, and we know what those are like.
It’s broken if people sign up for free weekends and don’t continue on to the game. You don’t ultimately get to decide it’s broken or not broken. Also, your comments about the audience having stuck through the game implies some kind of majority are feeling this way. I accept some people are, but I think you’ll find a disproportionate amount of them post on the forums. There are still plenty of people who started 2 years ago and are still enjoying the game. And some who have left and come back.
YOU are not enjoying the game because of the stuff you’re saying. I’M still enjoying the game, because of stuff I’ve said. “The audience” you’re referring to, doesn’t exist. We’re all individuals with different likes and dislikes. In fact, not everyone dissatisfied with the game is dissatisfied for the same reasons you are, and not everyone who likes the game likes the game for the same reasons I do.
It’s broken if people sign up for free weekends and don’t continue on to the game. You don’t ultimately get to decide it’s broken or not broken. Also, your comments about the audience having stuck through the game implies some kind of majority are feeling this way. I accept some people are, but I think you’ll find a disproportionate amount of them post on the forums. There are still plenty of people who started 2 years ago and are still enjoying the game. And some who have left and come back.
YOU are not enjoying the game because of the stuff you’re saying. I’M still enjoying the game, because of stuff I’ve said. “The audience” you’re referring to, doesn’t exist. We’re all individuals with different likes and dislikes. In fact, not everyone dissatisfied with the game is dissatisfied for the same reasons you are, and not everyone who likes the game likes the game for the same reasons I do.
I think a reason people have a hard time conversing with you (i.e. the whole white knight thing), is you don’t really read into what people say, you often just react. Maybe you enjoy being argumentative?
It doesn’t really matter though, i’m not bothered. I’ve had access to a fairly large amount of opinions from players who’ve either played or are still playing the game. I also didn’t say i don’t enjoy the game, i actually said i’m disheartened with it from a direction PoV. Design decisions affect my enjoyment of the game, but it doesn’t make me have knee jerk reactions to simply hate it all the sudden.
It’s actually not broken if it’s had a pretty successful retention rate (this is still a pretty popular game from what i can tell), it’s only broken if there is some hard number it needs to maintain over a certain course of time, which has it’s own set of problems, like feeling rigged, with a stench of rough corporate control.
I’m expressing an opinion that i actually share with a pretty large audience, that’s really all. I’m also not claiming that audience is the majority or that they all share the same opinion on what’s wrong with the game, just that they do actually share a general consensus.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
It’s broken if people sign up for free weekends and don’t continue on to the game. You don’t ultimately get to decide it’s broken or not broken. Also, your comments about the audience having stuck through the game implies some kind of majority are feeling this way. I accept some people are, but I think you’ll find a disproportionate amount of them post on the forums. There are still plenty of people who started 2 years ago and are still enjoying the game. And some who have left and come back.
YOU are not enjoying the game because of the stuff you’re saying. I’M still enjoying the game, because of stuff I’ve said. “The audience” you’re referring to, doesn’t exist. We’re all individuals with different likes and dislikes. In fact, not everyone dissatisfied with the game is dissatisfied for the same reasons you are, and not everyone who likes the game likes the game for the same reasons I do.
I think a reason people have a hard time conversing with you (i.e. the whole white knight thing), is you don’t really read into what people say, you often just react. Maybe you enjoy being argumentative?
It doesn’t really matter though, i’m not bothered. I’ve had access to a fairly large amount of opinions from players who’ve either played or are still playing the game. I also didn’t say i don’t enjoy the game, i actually said i’m disheartened with it from a direction PoV. Design decisions affect my enjoyment of the game, but it doesn’t make me have knee jerk reactions to simply hate it all the sudden.
It’s actually not broken if it’s had a pretty successful retention rate (this is still a pretty popular game from what i can tell), it’s only broken if there is some hard number it needs to maintain over a certain course of time, which has it’s own set of problems, like feeling rigged, with a stench of rough corporate control.
I’m expressing an opinion that i actually share with a pretty large audience, that’s really all. I’m also not claiming that audience is the majority or that they all share the same opinion on what’s wrong with the game, just that they do actually share a general consensus.
Right and my audience is tiny. No one thinks the way I do. You’re so busy trying to prove I’m a white knight, you didn’t even read what I said. I said I have a group and you have a group and there are a bunch of other groups. I’m not sure why you’d find that so unreasonable. In fact, if you reread what I wrote, there’s nothing in it at all that’s white knightish. I just pointed out that different groups don’t always agree even if they like or don’t like the game. If you think there’s something untrue about that okay. Maybe you’re just hung up on the fact that I’m a white knight so you don’t read what I actually said.
Anet has hard numbers on how many people try the game and how many people continue playing past level 10, level 20. How many go on to buy the game. You saying it’s not broken means about as much as me saying it is. That is, neither comment holds any real weight, because we don’t have the facts.
We do have a quote from Colin saying it’s “absolutely not good enough”, referring to player retention. If you want to argue that, go ahead. But I don’t think you have the evidence, other than I know guys who think like I do. Well yeah, I know guys who think like I do.
Right and my audience is tiny. No one thinks the way I do. You’re so busy trying to prove I’m a white knight, you didn’t even read what I said. I said I have a group and you have a group and there are a bunch of other groups. I’m not sure why you’d find that so unreasonable. In fact, if you reread what I wrote, there’s nothing in it at all that’s white knightish. I just pointed out that different groups don’t always agree even if they like or don’t like the game. If you think there’s something untrue about that okay. Maybe you’re just hung up on the fact that I’m a white knight so you don’t read what I actually said.
Anet has hard numbers on how many people try the game and how many people continue playing past level 10, level 20. How many go on to buy the game. You saying it’s not broken means about as much as me saying it is. That is, neither comment holds any real weight, because we don’t have the facts.
We do have a quote from Colin saying it’s “absolutely not good enough”, referring to player retention. If you want to argue that, go ahead. But I don’t think you have the evidence, other than I know guys who think like I do. Well yeah, I know guys who think like I do.
I wish you would read what people write sometimes. I actually find your insights balanced ankitten OT in agreement of the white knight comments. It’s like a trigger or something with you when you see those words, i guess.
I’m not sure how many times i’ve said, i’m stating an opinion. I clearly don’t have access to metrics, im not trying to state things as facts. But, metrics is my point and you often defend that you think the game is healthy, which i guess isn’t the case.
Anyways, always nice typing with you.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
Right and my audience is tiny. No one thinks the way I do. You’re so busy trying to prove I’m a white knight, you didn’t even read what I said. I said I have a group and you have a group and there are a bunch of other groups. I’m not sure why you’d find that so unreasonable. In fact, if you reread what I wrote, there’s nothing in it at all that’s white knightish. I just pointed out that different groups don’t always agree even if they like or don’t like the game. If you think there’s something untrue about that okay. Maybe you’re just hung up on the fact that I’m a white knight so you don’t read what I actually said.
Anet has hard numbers on how many people try the game and how many people continue playing past level 10, level 20. How many go on to buy the game. You saying it’s not broken means about as much as me saying it is. That is, neither comment holds any real weight, because we don’t have the facts.
We do have a quote from Colin saying it’s “absolutely not good enough”, referring to player retention. If you want to argue that, go ahead. But I don’t think you have the evidence, other than I know guys who think like I do. Well yeah, I know guys who think like I do.
I wish you would read what people write sometimes. I actually find your insights balanced ankitten OT in agreement of the white knight comments. It’s like a trigger or something with you when you see those words, i guess.
I’m not sure how many times i’ve said, i’m stating an opinion. I clearly don’t have access to metrics, im not trying to state things as facts. But, metrics is my point and you often defend that you think the game is healthy, which i guess isn’t the case.
Anyways, always nice typing with you.
Right, that’s sort of my point though. You’re saying something isn’t broken. I’m saying I don’t know if it’s broken or not, but Anet would know if it was broken.
This isn’t something we get to decide, because we don’t own the company. We don’t get to decide if the game is “sticky” enough in the first 10 level or first 20 levels. No matter what our opinions. It’s one thing to say I like this or I don’t like that. It’s another to say the starting experience isn’t “broken”. Because the criteria for it being broken is not getting people to play for longer.
Right and my audience is tiny. No one thinks the way I do. You’re so busy trying to prove I’m a white knight, you didn’t even read what I said. I said I have a group and you have a group and there are a bunch of other groups. I’m not sure why you’d find that so unreasonable. In fact, if you reread what I wrote, there’s nothing in it at all that’s white knightish. I just pointed out that different groups don’t always agree even if they like or don’t like the game. If you think there’s something untrue about that okay. Maybe you’re just hung up on the fact that I’m a white knight so you don’t read what I actually said.
Anet has hard numbers on how many people try the game and how many people continue playing past level 10, level 20. How many go on to buy the game. You saying it’s not broken means about as much as me saying it is. That is, neither comment holds any real weight, because we don’t have the facts.
We do have a quote from Colin saying it’s “absolutely not good enough”, referring to player retention. If you want to argue that, go ahead. But I don’t think you have the evidence, other than I know guys who think like I do. Well yeah, I know guys who think like I do.
I wish you would read what people write sometimes. I actually find your insights balanced ankitten OT in agreement of the white knight comments. It’s like a trigger or something with you when you see those words, i guess.
I’m not sure how many times i’ve said, i’m stating an opinion. I clearly don’t have access to metrics, im not trying to state things as facts. But, metrics is my point and you often defend that you think the game is healthy, which i guess isn’t the case.
Anyways, always nice typing with you.
Right, that’s sort of my point though. You’re saying something isn’t broken. I’m saying I don’t know if it’s broken or not, but Anet would know if it was broken.
This isn’t something we get to decide, because we don’t own the company. We don’t get to decide if the game is “sticky” enough in the first 10 level or first 20 levels. No matter what our opinions. It’s one thing to say I like this or I don’t like that. It’s another to say the starting experience isn’t “broken”. Because the criteria for it being broken is not getting people to play for longer.
you always overestimate anet as a company. Too much of your reasoning is based on the idea that if anet has chosen to do something it must be because its the right answer.
First of all data is deceptive, anyone who takes statistics knows this. 2nd of all people are notoriously bad at interpreting data. People whose life work it is to collect and interpret data scientifically still OFTEN have their findings overturned, by new data or new experiments. Even if you have excellent data, what you choose to do about it or what you think causes it is often still suspect.
the people in charge are just people, they make misteps, mistakes etc.
Note, gw2, with the NPE did not do as well in china as the original did in US/EU, even though thats a larger market. Metrics were taken into account to produce what should have been a better game, but it didnt sell as well.
Metrics/descions made by people in charge are not always the right/best decsions
Right and my audience is tiny. No one thinks the way I do. You’re so busy trying to prove I’m a white knight, you didn’t even read what I said. I said I have a group and you have a group and there are a bunch of other groups. I’m not sure why you’d find that so unreasonable. In fact, if you reread what I wrote, there’s nothing in it at all that’s white knightish. I just pointed out that different groups don’t always agree even if they like or don’t like the game. If you think there’s something untrue about that okay. Maybe you’re just hung up on the fact that I’m a white knight so you don’t read what I actually said.
Anet has hard numbers on how many people try the game and how many people continue playing past level 10, level 20. How many go on to buy the game. You saying it’s not broken means about as much as me saying it is. That is, neither comment holds any real weight, because we don’t have the facts.
We do have a quote from Colin saying it’s “absolutely not good enough”, referring to player retention. If you want to argue that, go ahead. But I don’t think you have the evidence, other than I know guys who think like I do. Well yeah, I know guys who think like I do.
I wish you would read what people write sometimes. I actually find your insights balanced ankitten OT in agreement of the white knight comments. It’s like a trigger or something with you when you see those words, i guess.
I’m not sure how many times i’ve said, i’m stating an opinion. I clearly don’t have access to metrics, im not trying to state things as facts. But, metrics is my point and you often defend that you think the game is healthy, which i guess isn’t the case.
Anyways, always nice typing with you.
Right, that’s sort of my point though. You’re saying something isn’t broken. I’m saying I don’t know if it’s broken or not, but Anet would know if it was broken.
This isn’t something we get to decide, because we don’t own the company. We don’t get to decide if the game is “sticky” enough in the first 10 level or first 20 levels. No matter what our opinions. It’s one thing to say I like this or I don’t like that. It’s another to say the starting experience isn’t “broken”. Because the criteria for it being broken is not getting people to play for longer.
you always overestimate anet as a company. Too much of your reasoning is based on the idea that if anet has chosen to do something it must be because its the right answer.
First of all data is deceptive, anyone who takes statistics knows this. 2nd of all people are notoriously bad at interpreting data. People whose life work it is to collect and interpret data scientifically still OFTEN have their findings overturned, by new data or new experiments. Even if you have excellent data, what you choose to do about it or what you think causes it is often still suspect.
the people in charge are just people, they make misteps, mistakes etc.
Note, gw2, with the NPE did not do as well in china as the original did in US/EU, even though thats a larger market. Metrics were taken into account to produce what should have been a better game, but it didnt sell as well.
Metrics/descions made by people in charge are not always the right/best decsions
Actually I don’t overestimate Anet. But I don’t overestimate the forums either. Everyone on the forums is a complete stranger. I don’t know them at all. I’ve seen them post but I don’t always or even often agree with posts.
Anet is a company. The people who work there are. to some degree, proven entities. They produced a game I like. You didn’t. So I choose to trust them over you…knowing that everyone is fallible.
I believe the NPE was necessary but, as always with Anet, they took too strong a hand to it…and some of that has been subsequently rectified.
Anet as a company has often over-reacted. But it doesn’t mean the NPE was unnecessary.
Actually I don’t overestimate Anet. But I don’t overestimate the forums either. Everyone on the forums is a complete stranger. I don’t know them at all. I’ve seen them post but I don’t always or even often agree with posts.
Anet is a company. The people who work there are. to some degree, proven entities. They produced a game I like. You didn’t. So I choose to trust them over you…knowing that everyone is fallible.
I believe the NPE was necessary but, as always with Anet, they took too strong a hand to it…and some of that has been subsequently rectified.
Anet as a company has often over-reacted. But it doesn’t mean the NPE was unnecessary.
The idea of retaining more new players is a great one. The execution of that idea and effectiveness its whats questionable.
As for forums, its tricky but there are people on the forum who seem to be “Experts” in thier fields, not that they are always right, or give the complete answer, but they understand things about the game that are beyond what even anet staff can see. There are posts the day patch notes on any given topic comes out, that accurately reflect what the future response will be, and how it effects the game. There are bugs found withing the first 5 minutes of playing that QA missed in however long their testing cycle is.
You can dismiss the forum as just some nobodies who dont really know anything, but somewhere in all of those posts 20 page long discussions, is almost always the guy who saw XYZ coming, or noticed something Devs didnt consider. Its not always the same guy, but the answers are there. Even when they dont have the answer, they often give insight into how different types of players are interacting with the game.
think about it, say you have 10 smart people who play the game a lot, discussing and analyzing an issue with open minds for 20 pages. Do you really think at anet has the time and energy to duplicate that?
These forums are actually a very powerful resource that generally companies have to pay people for, Some one just has to figure out how to correctly harness that.
Actually I don’t overestimate Anet. But I don’t overestimate the forums either. Everyone on the forums is a complete stranger. I don’t know them at all. I’ve seen them post but I don’t always or even often agree with posts.
Anet is a company. The people who work there are. to some degree, proven entities. They produced a game I like. You didn’t. So I choose to trust them over you…knowing that everyone is fallible.
I believe the NPE was necessary but, as always with Anet, they took too strong a hand to it…and some of that has been subsequently rectified.
Anet as a company has often over-reacted. But it doesn’t mean the NPE was unnecessary.
The idea of retaining more new players is a great one. The execution of that idea and effectiveness its whats questionable.
As for forums, its tricky but there are people on the forum who seem to be “Experts” in thier fields, not that they are always right, or give the complete answer, but they understand things about the game that are beyond what even anet staff can see. There are posts the day patch notes on any given topic comes out, that accurately reflect what the future response will be, and how it effects the game. There are bugs found withing the first 5 minutes of playing that QA missed in however long their testing cycle is.
You can dismiss the forum as just some nobodies who dont really know anything, but somewhere in all of those posts 20 page long discussions, is almost always the guy who saw XYZ coming, or noticed something Devs didnt consider. Its not always the same guy, but the answers are there. Even when they dont have the answer, they often give insight into how different types of players are interacting with the game.
think about it, say you have 10 smart people who play the game a lot, discussing and analyzing an issue with open minds for 20 pages. Do you really think at anet has the time and energy to duplicate that?
These forums are actually a very powerful resource that generally companies have to pay people for, Some one just has to figure out how to correctly harness that.
No, I don’t dismiss the forum as nobodies. Anet says they tested this and it worked. Are they lying? Are the opinions of the forums better than Anet’s tests? Are you saying Anet is too incompetent to read their own data?
Maybe they are, maybe they’re not. But they tested it. We didn’t. So until we see the proof one way or another, I’m going to go with Anet.
The forums may or may not have a point (when they can agree on anything).
Anet has made three really bad decisions since the game started as far as I’m concerned.
The introduction of ascended gear.
The trait system revamp.
The end of the personal story from the 9/9 update.
That’s three really bad changes from my point of view out of a whole lot of changes. It’s a pretty good track record for me.
That doesn’t mean I dismiss the forums. I listen to what’s said and in this instance I judge Anet’s data to be a better source…until we hear otherwise. At the very least, we should wait for data from the weekend to be processed/revealed.
Colin said if it doesn’t work they’ll let us know. Hopefully they’ll be forthcoming with some information about this soon.
Actually I don’t overestimate Anet. But I don’t overestimate the forums either. Everyone on the forums is a complete stranger. I don’t know them at all. I’ve seen them post but I don’t always or even often agree with posts.
Anet is a company. The people who work there are. to some degree, proven entities. They produced a game I like. You didn’t. So I choose to trust them over you…knowing that everyone is fallible.
I believe the NPE was necessary but, as always with Anet, they took too strong a hand to it…and some of that has been subsequently rectified.
Anet as a company has often over-reacted. But it doesn’t mean the NPE was unnecessary.
The idea of retaining more new players is a great one. The execution of that idea and effectiveness its whats questionable.
As for forums, its tricky but there are people on the forum who seem to be “Experts” in thier fields, not that they are always right, or give the complete answer, but they understand things about the game that are beyond what even anet staff can see. There are posts the day patch notes on any given topic comes out, that accurately reflect what the future response will be, and how it effects the game. There are bugs found withing the first 5 minutes of playing that QA missed in however long their testing cycle is.
You can dismiss the forum as just some nobodies who dont really know anything, but somewhere in all of those posts 20 page long discussions, is almost always the guy who saw XYZ coming, or noticed something Devs didnt consider. Its not always the same guy, but the answers are there. Even when they dont have the answer, they often give insight into how different types of players are interacting with the game.
think about it, say you have 10 smart people who play the game a lot, discussing and analyzing an issue with open minds for 20 pages. Do you really think at anet has the time and energy to duplicate that?
These forums are actually a very powerful resource that generally companies have to pay people for, Some one just has to figure out how to correctly harness that.
No, I don’t dismiss the forum as nobodies. Anet says they tested this and it worked. Are they lying? Are the opinions of the forums better than Anet’s tests? Are you saying Anet is too incompetent to read their own data?
Maybe they are, maybe they’re not. But they tested it. We didn’t. So until we see the proof one way or another, I’m going to go with Anet.
The forums may or may not have a point (when they can agree on anything).
Anet has made three really bad decisions since the game started as far as I’m concerned.
The introduction of ascended gear.
The trait system revamp.
The end of the personal story from the 9/9 update.That’s three really bad changes from my point of view out of a whole lot of changes. It’s a pretty good track record for me.
That doesn’t mean I dismiss the forums. I listen to what’s said and in this instance I judge Anet’s data to be a better source…until we hear otherwise. At the very least, we should wait for data from the weekend to be processed/revealed.
Colin said if it doesn’t work they’ll let us know. Hopefully they’ll be forthcoming with some information about this soon.
its not about incompetence, its an art and a science to truely understand and use data. Also, it may not even be anet’s error. Often companies pay some one else to gather the data and analyze the results and give them back some bullet points. Perhaps these companies didnt really understand the intricacies of the groups they were dealing with.
Point is, using data correctly at a high level isnt like look data gave me the answers, its something even people whose whole life is research fail at fairly consistently. Take a look at the salt causes high blood pressure question, numerous studies, numerous statistics, proffesionals, and still they get new data, or have to qualify their findings.
also its not so much about the forums agreeing on something, it more about what they are saying, what they are observing, why they are predicting X
anyhow it, just like metrics is not something you can just look at and it gives you the answers, they still will have to do their developer thing. But it is a resource.
They got it right with GW1 and I don’t understand how they can’t seem to get it right in GW2.
This is a step backwards.
Actually I don’t overestimate Anet. But I don’t overestimate the forums either. Everyone on the forums is a complete stranger. I don’t know them at all. I’ve seen them post but I don’t always or even often agree with posts.
Anet is a company. The people who work there are. to some degree, proven entities. They produced a game I like. You didn’t. So I choose to trust them over you…knowing that everyone is fallible.
I believe the NPE was necessary but, as always with Anet, they took too strong a hand to it…and some of that has been subsequently rectified.
Anet as a company has often over-reacted. But it doesn’t mean the NPE was unnecessary.
The idea of retaining more new players is a great one. The execution of that idea and effectiveness its whats questionable.
As for forums, its tricky but there are people on the forum who seem to be “Experts” in thier fields, not that they are always right, or give the complete answer, but they understand things about the game that are beyond what even anet staff can see. There are posts the day patch notes on any given topic comes out, that accurately reflect what the future response will be, and how it effects the game. There are bugs found withing the first 5 minutes of playing that QA missed in however long their testing cycle is.
You can dismiss the forum as just some nobodies who dont really know anything, but somewhere in all of those posts 20 page long discussions, is almost always the guy who saw XYZ coming, or noticed something Devs didnt consider. Its not always the same guy, but the answers are there. Even when they dont have the answer, they often give insight into how different types of players are interacting with the game.
think about it, say you have 10 smart people who play the game a lot, discussing and analyzing an issue with open minds for 20 pages. Do you really think at anet has the time and energy to duplicate that?
These forums are actually a very powerful resource that generally companies have to pay people for, Some one just has to figure out how to correctly harness that.
No, I don’t dismiss the forum as nobodies. Anet says they tested this and it worked. Are they lying? Are the opinions of the forums better than Anet’s tests? Are you saying Anet is too incompetent to read their own data?
Maybe they are, maybe they’re not. But they tested it. We didn’t. So until we see the proof one way or another, I’m going to go with Anet.
The forums may or may not have a point (when they can agree on anything).
Anet has made three really bad decisions since the game started as far as I’m concerned.
The introduction of ascended gear.
The trait system revamp.
The end of the personal story from the 9/9 update.That’s three really bad changes from my point of view out of a whole lot of changes. It’s a pretty good track record for me.
That doesn’t mean I dismiss the forums. I listen to what’s said and in this instance I judge Anet’s data to be a better source…until we hear otherwise. At the very least, we should wait for data from the weekend to be processed/revealed.
Colin said if it doesn’t work they’ll let us know. Hopefully they’ll be forthcoming with some information about this soon.
its not about incompetence, its an art and a science to truely understand and use data. Also, it may not even be anet’s error. Often companies pay some one else to gather the data and analyze the results and give them back some bullet points. Perhaps these companies didnt really understand the intricacies of the groups they were dealing with.
Point is, using data correctly at a high level isnt like look data gave me the answers, its something even people whose whole life is research fail at fairly consistently. Take a look at the salt causes high blood pressure question, numerous studies, numerous statistics, proffesionals, and still they get new data, or have to qualify their findings.
also its not so much about the forums agreeing on something, it more about what they are saying, what they are observing, why they are predicting X
anyhow it, just like metrics is not something you can just look at and it gives you the answers, they still will have to do their developer thing. But it is a resource.
What Anet says was that they tried a bunch of different builds and one build showed that more people stayed playing longer.
I’m not really sure how to misinterpret that.
Actually I don’t overestimate Anet. But I don’t overestimate the forums either. Everyone on the forums is a complete stranger. I don’t know them at all. I’ve seen them post but I don’t always or even often agree with posts.
Anet is a company. The people who work there are. to some degree, proven entities. They produced a game I like. You didn’t. So I choose to trust them over you…knowing that everyone is fallible.
I believe the NPE was necessary but, as always with Anet, they took too strong a hand to it…and some of that has been subsequently rectified.
Anet as a company has often over-reacted. But it doesn’t mean the NPE was unnecessary.
The idea of retaining more new players is a great one. The execution of that idea and effectiveness its whats questionable.
As for forums, its tricky but there are people on the forum who seem to be “Experts” in thier fields, not that they are always right, or give the complete answer, but they understand things about the game that are beyond what even anet staff can see. There are posts the day patch notes on any given topic comes out, that accurately reflect what the future response will be, and how it effects the game. There are bugs found withing the first 5 minutes of playing that QA missed in however long their testing cycle is.
You can dismiss the forum as just some nobodies who dont really know anything, but somewhere in all of those posts 20 page long discussions, is almost always the guy who saw XYZ coming, or noticed something Devs didnt consider. Its not always the same guy, but the answers are there. Even when they dont have the answer, they often give insight into how different types of players are interacting with the game.
think about it, say you have 10 smart people who play the game a lot, discussing and analyzing an issue with open minds for 20 pages. Do you really think at anet has the time and energy to duplicate that?
These forums are actually a very powerful resource that generally companies have to pay people for, Some one just has to figure out how to correctly harness that.
No, I don’t dismiss the forum as nobodies. Anet says they tested this and it worked. Are they lying? Are the opinions of the forums better than Anet’s tests? Are you saying Anet is too incompetent to read their own data?
Maybe they are, maybe they’re not. But they tested it. We didn’t. So until we see the proof one way or another, I’m going to go with Anet.
The forums may or may not have a point (when they can agree on anything).
Anet has made three really bad decisions since the game started as far as I’m concerned.
The introduction of ascended gear.
The trait system revamp.
The end of the personal story from the 9/9 update.That’s three really bad changes from my point of view out of a whole lot of changes. It’s a pretty good track record for me.
That doesn’t mean I dismiss the forums. I listen to what’s said and in this instance I judge Anet’s data to be a better source…until we hear otherwise. At the very least, we should wait for data from the weekend to be processed/revealed.
Colin said if it doesn’t work they’ll let us know. Hopefully they’ll be forthcoming with some information about this soon.
its not about incompetence, its an art and a science to truely understand and use data. Also, it may not even be anet’s error. Often companies pay some one else to gather the data and analyze the results and give them back some bullet points. Perhaps these companies didnt really understand the intricacies of the groups they were dealing with.
Point is, using data correctly at a high level isnt like look data gave me the answers, its something even people whose whole life is research fail at fairly consistently. Take a look at the salt causes high blood pressure question, numerous studies, numerous statistics, proffesionals, and still they get new data, or have to qualify their findings.
also its not so much about the forums agreeing on something, it more about what they are saying, what they are observing, why they are predicting X
anyhow it, just like metrics is not something you can just look at and it gives you the answers, they still will have to do their developer thing. But it is a resource.
What Anet says was that they tried a bunch of different builds and one build showed that more people stayed playing longer.
I’m not really sure how to misinterpret that.
This new change discourages the creation of alts. That in turn limits how much revenue (if any) they are going to make on purchasable character slots.
Someone new to an MMO is going to be confused no matter what. This gating things at levels that don’t even make sense doesn’t help at all.
Actually I don’t overestimate Anet. But I don’t overestimate the forums either. Everyone on the forums is a complete stranger. I don’t know them at all. I’ve seen them post but I don’t always or even often agree with posts.
Anet is a company. The people who work there are. to some degree, proven entities. They produced a game I like. You didn’t. So I choose to trust them over you…knowing that everyone is fallible.
I believe the NPE was necessary but, as always with Anet, they took too strong a hand to it…and some of that has been subsequently rectified.
Anet as a company has often over-reacted. But it doesn’t mean the NPE was unnecessary.
snip
These forums are actually a very powerful resource that generally companies have to pay people for, Some one just has to figure out how to correctly harness that.
No, I don’t dismiss the forum as nobodies. Anet says they tested this and it worked. Are they lying? Are the opinions of the forums better than Anet’s tests? Are you saying Anet is too incompetent to read their own data?
Maybe they are, maybe they’re not. But they tested it. We didn’t. So until we see the proof one way or another, I’m going to go with Anet.
The forums may or may not have a point (when they can agree on anything).
Anet has made three really bad decisions since the game started as far as I’m concerned.
The introduction of ascended gear.
The trait system revamp.
The end of the personal story from the 9/9 update.That’s three really bad changes from my point of view out of a whole lot of changes. It’s a pretty good track record for me.
That doesn’t mean I dismiss the forums. I listen to what’s said and in this instance I judge Anet’s data to be a better source…until we hear otherwise. At the very least, we should wait for data from the weekend to be processed/revealed.
Colin said if it doesn’t work they’ll let us know. Hopefully they’ll be forthcoming with some information about this soon.
its not about incompetence, its an art and a science to truely understand and use data. Also, it may not even be anet’s error. Often companies pay some one else to gather the data and analyze the results and give them back some bullet points. Perhaps these companies didnt really understand the intricacies of the groups they were dealing with.
Point is, using data correctly at a high level isnt like look data gave me the answers, its something even people whose whole life is research fail at fairly consistently. Take a look at the salt causes high blood pressure question, numerous studies, numerous statistics, proffesionals, and still they get new data, or have to qualify their findings.
also its not so much about the forums agreeing on something, it more about what they are saying, what they are observing, why they are predicting X
anyhow it, just like metrics is not something you can just look at and it gives you the answers, they still will have to do their developer thing. But it is a resource.
What Anet says was that they tried a bunch of different builds and one build showed that more people stayed playing longer.
I’m not really sure how to misinterpret that.
This new change discourages the creation of alts. That in turn limits how much revenue (if any) they are going to make on purchasable character slots.
Someone new to an MMO is going to be confused no matter what. This gating things at levels that don’t even make sense doesn’t help at all.
Anet is working on something for altoholics as well, so I guess we have to see what that is. MMOs are always works in progress. Right now it’s less convenient to make an alt (even though I personally don’t have a problem with anything but the traits and the end of the personal story).
The future will bring more changes to make it better. That’s how MMOs roll. Remember when rangers were like the posterboy for underpowered. Now everyone is running around with them.
Altoholics will have their day.
Ironically, this post fits in with what I’m hearing from a lot of people who are bringing their spouse into the game.
The conflict with this patch seems to be squarely to do with just a few core components of the MMO:
- New players (to MMOs) found Guild Wars 2 hard to grasp
- Veteran players (to MMOs) found Guild Wars 2 too easy
- Anet tried to address the issue of new players joining by gating the amount of concepts to digest at the start
- In gating content Anet fundamentally challenged the way MMOs have been standardized up to this point
- The fundamental challenge is that up to this point the gaming world has been “Get in and learn it yourself”. Anet tried to lend a helping hand. That’s pretty nice of them, but how they did it was horribly wrong. This method does not require that a person starting out maintain their own initiative. Instead they require help. So Anet gives them help. Now the person expects help. Anet gives more help. “Teach a man to fish and he will have food for a life time, catch a man a fish and he will have food for a day.” The issue is Anet just said, “I’ll fish for you,”, wants to make it the standard, and doesn’t seem to think this is a bad idea.
Simple solution: implement a ‘do it yourself’ stage before level 80. Be the good parent and stop saying your child isn’t ready to be weened off diapers at five. The reality is you’re just afraid of what’s in those diapers.
Example:
“(Diapers) We’re telling you what this… (potty training) we’re telling you what is…. we’re referring you to the user manual (pointing to the bathroom).
Btw:
Anet … user manual… Press H… inform. Really. It’s that easy.
as I have said repeatedly, the game’s mechanics do not need dumbing down, the game’s systems simply need an actual tutorial (like every other MMO does). We need tutorials for crafting, dungeons, fractals, equipment grades, downed state, combo fields, etc etc.
And before anyone says it, a 2 sentence popup on level up about one small aspect of a feature =/= tutorial.
This is why the NPE was a bad direction. The concept is a great one, but the execution was very poor on ANet’s part.
Resident smug Englishman on the NA servers, just because.
Come on, people.
Every MMO I’ve ever played gates acquisition of game features/mechanics. Most of them spread that acquisition over the entire leveling curve. Many of them use level-up notifications. They all pace acquisition differently.
Assume for a moment that the game had debuted with the current leveling scheme. Assume for a moment that there was no prior leveling scheme to compare it to. If you can put aside that bias and look at the current state of leveling, I believe there would be two major complaints about leveling, and it being “too simple” would not be one of them.
What would those two complaints be?
- Mobs, especially early mobs, are too easy
- The tasks to unlock traits are very different in accessibility and effort-to-unlock
Come on, people.
Every MMO I’ve ever played gates acquisition of game features/mechanics. Most of them spread that acquisition over the entire leveling curve. Many of them use level-up notifications. They all pace acquisition differently.
Assume for a moment that the game had debuted with the current leveling scheme. Assume for a moment that there was no prior leveling scheme to compare it to. If you can put aside that bias and look at the current state of leveling, I believe there would be two major complaints about leveling, and it being “too simple” would not be one of them.
What would those two complaints be?
- Mobs, especially early mobs, are too easy
- The tasks to unlock traits are very different in accessibility and effort-to-unlock
My concern isn;t with gating of features, it’s with the fact that the core issues that new players face (ie, the introduction of advanced game features) have not been addressed with the NPE, and the NPE is simply a large number of completely unnecessary changes when they need to actually be focusing on delivering the information new players need to fully understand the game they are playing, instead of gating access to basic features
Resident smug Englishman on the NA servers, just because.
While I guess it is understandable that Anet is trying to position Guild Wars 2 differently from other MMOs and the target audience too appears to be different, there are a very large number of veteran mmo players here who are not happy with the changes.
The current changes are not suited for the hardcore PC gamers. Maybe when the game is available on consoles or tablets…..the casual gamer numbers there are large and such changes would be attractive to them.
Please put efforts on improving end game content and skill effects etc……a tutorial would help!
A certain supremely complicated space based MMO has a fairly effective tutorial too, I don’t see why we cant do it here!!
My concern isn;t with gating of features, it’s with the fact that the core issues that new players face (ie, the introduction of advanced game features) have not been addressed with the NPE, and the NPE is simply a large number of completely unnecessary changes when they need to actually be focusing on delivering the information new players need to fully understand the game they are playing, instead of gating access to basic features
I’d have to agree, as I don’t think the NPE made any dramatic improvements in actually teaching the game’s few core mechanics. However, that wasn’t my point. Veteran players had to figure that stuff out originally, and would have figured them out if the NPE had been the Original Player Experience.
I get to level 15 in an hour and a half. Yes several people DO disagree with me. You’re clearly ignoring the people who agree with me. I’m not so sure what percentage is what anymore.
Most of the complaining about the NPE stopped after Anet made changes to it. Most people seemed relatively content after that.
Are there still complaints? Sure. There are also complaints about no mounts, no open world PvE, and Keg Brawl…so yeah.
It had NEVER taken me, and i mean NEVER taken me an hour or more to get to level 7 in this game. Ever. I could get to level 10 in about 15-20 minutes, so saying that gating something like weapons swap behind level 15 being the same as it being at level 7 is disingenuous. I find it hard to believe anyone that has played this game regularly took that long to get to level 7. Ever.
You must be special then, because it took many people a whole lot longer. Sure, if you know the game and you run run run, you could always do things fast. Now you do things fast without particularly trying. I never got to level 10 in 15-20 minutes or even in an hour, so I have no idea what you’re on about.
I played the game, did the hearts, gathered mats, discovered vistas and poi’s, and did personal story steps for plenty of XP to get me there that fast. Now I have to more or less clear most of the starter zone and do the level 10 story step just to get to the point of swapping my weapons. That’s ridiculous.
[OTR] – Greck Howlbane – Guardian
Soraya Mayhew – Thief
Melissa Koris – Engie – SF for Life!
Soraya Mayhew – Thief
Melissa Koris – Engie – SF for Life!
In regards to what OP said, my friends (both new to MMOs and otherwise) were having real challenges with things like bank and crafting as well. Changing the labeling on some of these items would help immensely.
For example, right now crafting materials aren’t all labeled as such. When a player first starts, there’s not an easy distinction between crafting materials and trophies. Giving them the descriptors “crafting material” and “junk” would make that difference much more clear. Plus it would take the guess work out of the “sell junk” button at vendors. Before you come to understand what it does, there’s the question “is this item important? Should I be keeping it for something? It says ‘trophy’ so what do I do with it?”
Second, an optional crafting tutorial would really help things get going. Every player I personally know (including myself) had to be shown exactly how to discover recipes and craft weapons. Maybe each master crafter could have a simple walkthrough that you can opt to watch, like the heart scouts.
For example, right now crafting materials aren’t all labeled as such. When a player first starts, there’s not an easy distinction between crafting materials and trophies. Giving them the descriptors “crafting material” and “junk” would make that difference much more clear. Plus it would take the guess work out of the “sell junk” button at vendors. Before you come to understand what it does, there’s the question “is this item important? Should I be keeping it for something? It says ‘trophy’ so what do I do with it?”
The tool-tip gives a wealth of information, that’s what the new player need to learn: use the informational tool-tips.
For example, right now crafting materials aren’t all labeled as such. When a player first starts, there’s not an easy distinction between crafting materials and trophies. Giving them the descriptors “crafting material” and “junk” would make that difference much more clear. Plus it would take the guess work out of the “sell junk” button at vendors. Before you come to understand what it does, there’s the question “is this item important? Should I be keeping it for something? It says ‘trophy’ so what do I do with it?”
The tool-tip gives a wealth of information, that’s what the new player need to learn: use the informational tool-tips.
Yes, learn to read.
For example, right now crafting materials aren’t all labeled as such.
They are since the 9/9 patch. “Deposit all materials” before that it was “Deposit all collectibles” and yes, that confused me as well. Just like the “trophy” thing – I had the rule that I wouldn’t sell or dispose anything unless I know what purpose it serves so I had all these trophies and had no idea how to make them useful – took me a long while to get that one can mostly use them while doing a heart, if the heart is completed they’re useless.
But an oiled leather pack is really useful when it comes to junk items.
I have to say that, as someone who has been playing the game for a while, I found the NPE incredibly annoying.
If it had been there when I started the game, though, my start might have been less rocky. I’ve played a lot of games, but other than EVE Online (where I was fortunate enough to actually know the game very well by the time I first played and also had my brother’s corp on hand to explain what I needed explained) and a brief foray into WoW’s starter edition (I don’t think I even hit the level cap), GW2 is my first MMO. I was super excited about it before launch and read all the blogs and watched the videos and all that, but my first couple of days playing did not go well AT ALL.
I found it freeing but also confusing, and I think I would have liked the way the NPE introduces new concepts at a rate that someone who might not have a lot of experience with MMOS can absorb better.
That being said, can I turn the kittening thing off please? Or at the very least the stupid pop-ups about the BLT and levelling and underwater combat and blah blah blah. Maybe make it so that those popups only appear the first time you level a toon?
I can see how your first MMORPG can be a bit confusing at the beginning. But the thing is, different game types are enjoyed by different people.
I understand how the things you brought up can be very confusing at first, but I do not understand how this can cause any major frustration. I just grew into it in my first game of this type.
Chances are, telling by your GF´s reaction, she will just not enjoy this type of game even when she has managed to understand its various aspects. That is in no way insinuating she is stupid or something like that. You say she likes Sim City. Those kind of games are very complex (at least they used to be, no idea about the latest iteration) and you do not grasp all concepts on your first “playthrough” usually. Still, some people enjoy those too.
If you twist a game into something liked by people who usually dislike this type of game, it will stop being this type of game, to the detriment of the people who liked it originally.
But if you change the first ten levels to something that might get new people into this type of game who never would have tried it before, then that’s fine.
Anet hasn’t really changed the core game. The dungeons are still dungeons. The fractals are still fractals. The new zone has harder PvE than older zones,. with new creatures.
Anet isn’t changing the game. They’re changing the introdution to the game to be more forgiving.
I’m not sure why so many seem to think that’s a big deal or a bad thing.
If it’s only pleasing a fraction of the players who get annoyed then it’s not fine.
I for one heard only a few players that they liked the changes and none that said that they love the new way to unlock weaponskills or how the personal story plays out now or that they can dance in front of cows to please them or that they don’t have a downstate for the first few levels.
If it’s only pleasing a fraction of the players who get annoyed then it’s not fine.
Well if it’s only a fraction of the players who get annoyed then there shouldn’t be a problem?
If it’s only pleasing a fraction of the players who get annoyed then it’s not fine.
Well if it’s only a fraction of the players who get annoyed then there shouldn’t be a problem?
If the fraction of players who get annoyed is vastly larger than the fraction of players who are pleased then there is a problem because those players either stop playing the game, are not recommending the game or don’t buy gems at all.
Dumping down the game to make it easier will always be subpar to explaining the game properly. League of Legends had the same problems, players who complain that the game was too difficult to understand. Riot now creates better tutorials and that’s what ANet should also do. The game is not complicated, not by any means. It just has to be explained first.
This game need a proper one-time tutorial.
I can see how your first MMORPG can be a bit confusing at the beginning. But the thing is, different game types are enjoyed by different people.
I understand how the things you brought up can be very confusing at first, but I do not understand how this can cause any major frustration. I just grew into it in my first game of this type.
Chances are, telling by your GF´s reaction, she will just not enjoy this type of game even when she has managed to understand its various aspects. That is in no way insinuating she is stupid or something like that. You say she likes Sim City. Those kind of games are very complex (at least they used to be, no idea about the latest iteration) and you do not grasp all concepts on your first “playthrough” usually. Still, some people enjoy those too.
If you twist a game into something liked by people who usually dislike this type of game, it will stop being this type of game, to the detriment of the people who liked it originally.
But if you change the first ten levels to something that might get new people into this type of game who never would have tried it before, then that’s fine.
Anet hasn’t really changed the core game. The dungeons are still dungeons. The fractals are still fractals. The new zone has harder PvE than older zones,. with new creatures.
Anet isn’t changing the game. They’re changing the introdution to the game to be more forgiving.
I’m not sure why so many seem to think that’s a big deal or a bad thing.
If it’s only pleasing a fraction of the players who get annoyed then it’s not fine.
I for one heard only a few players that they liked the changes and none that said that they love the new way to unlock weaponskills or how the personal story plays out now or that they can dance in front of cows to please them or that they don’t have a downstate for the first few levels.
I’ve heard from a quite a few players that really don’t like it. I’ve heard from a few players who barely even know about it. I’ve spoke to some who liked it.
The people it’s meant for our new players. So if a handful, and I believe it is a handful, of players really cant’ stand it and leave and we get more new players out of it, that’s how businesses grow.
This idea that some how there’s this vast majority of people who are going to be so annoyed they’re going to leave over this, or even more, are even really badly affected by this is just a forum firestorm and nothing more.
Anet knows it. Most people probably realize it, so it’s not going to change.
If the over all benefit is more players then it did its job. Anyone who leaves over this was probably going to leave the game anyway. It’s just not that big a deal.
I can see how your first MMORPG can be a bit confusing at the beginning. But the thing is, different game types are enjoyed by different people.
I understand how the things you brought up can be very confusing at first, but I do not understand how this can cause any major frustration. I just grew into it in my first game of this type.
Chances are, telling by your GF´s reaction, she will just not enjoy this type of game even when she has managed to understand its various aspects. That is in no way insinuating she is stupid or something like that. You say she likes Sim City. Those kind of games are very complex (at least they used to be, no idea about the latest iteration) and you do not grasp all concepts on your first “playthrough” usually. Still, some people enjoy those too.
If you twist a game into something liked by people who usually dislike this type of game, it will stop being this type of game, to the detriment of the people who liked it originally.
But if you change the first ten levels to something that might get new people into this type of game who never would have tried it before, then that’s fine.
Anet hasn’t really changed the core game. The dungeons are still dungeons. The fractals are still fractals. The new zone has harder PvE than older zones,. with new creatures.
Anet isn’t changing the game. They’re changing the introdution to the game to be more forgiving.
I’m not sure why so many seem to think that’s a big deal or a bad thing.
If it’s only pleasing a fraction of the players who get annoyed then it’s not fine.
I for one heard only a few players that they liked the changes and none that said that they love the new way to unlock weaponskills or how the personal story plays out now or that they can dance in front of cows to please them or that they don’t have a downstate for the first few levels.I’ve heard from a quite a few players that really don’t like it. I’ve heard from a few players who barely even know about it. I’ve spoke to some who liked it.
The people it’s meant for our new players. So if a handful, and I believe it is a handful, of players really cant’ stand it and leave and we get more new players out of it, that’s how businesses grow.
This idea that some how there’s this vast majority of people who are going to be so annoyed they’re going to leave over this, or even more, are even really badly affected by this is just a forum firestorm and nothing more.
Anet knows it. Most people probably realize it, so it’s not going to change.
If the over all benefit is more players then it did its job. Anyone who leaves over this was probably going to leave the game anyway. It’s just not that big a deal.
ANet has created the NPE, they’re backpedaling since. They call it “finetuning”.
This alone shows that the changes aren’t fleshed out and created based on incomplete facts. They’ve said that the NPE got developed based upon a survey for players who stopped playing within the first hours. There is only a very minor part of players, otherwise the humanity would be doomed, who stopped playing GW2 because it was too complicated for them and then filled out the survey.
You have to keep in mind that those players got “overwhelmed” by the things the game offers but showed no interest in understanding the things. Do you wholeheartly believe that they will show more interest now that they just have to press 1 all day long to win the game?
Every mechanic this game offers, and those aren’t much, can be explained in a proper tutorial. Nothing has to be dumbed down. Nothing has to be dumbed down so much that it reaches dance-in-front-of-cows-to-please-them level.
If it’s only pleasing a fraction of the players who get annoyed then it’s not fine.
Well if it’s only a fraction of the players who get annoyed then there shouldn’t be a problem?
If the fraction of players who get annoyed is vastly larger than the fraction of players who are pleased then there is a problem because those players either stop playing the game, are not recommending the game or don’t buy gems at all.
True, but that’s not what you wrote and I couldn’t resist “trolling” you =)
Dumping down the game to make it easier will always be subpar to explaining the game properly. League of Legends had the same problems, players who complain that the game was too difficult to understand. Riot now creates better tutorials and that’s what ANet should also do. The game is not complicated, not by any means. It just has to be explained first.
So you say the game needs a tutorial but that this tutorial is “dumbing” down the game? That’s a pretty hard task to master, isn’kitten No idea what exactly you mean with “one time tutorial” that veteran players can turn off the tips and tricks, or that new players would have to master a starter area to progress in the game? I don’t really care about the tool tips to be honest, I can click them away, so whether or not they’re there doesn’t inflict me. I like the “yay you leveled up, here’s some stuff” thing because it makes leveling less boring. If it were a tutorial in which the players were “trapped” until they were able to progress in this game, they would probably be annoyed before they even finished it. I know that I played the tutorials in my offline games after I finished the game.
I can see how your first MMORPG can be a bit confusing at the beginning. But the thing is, different game types are enjoyed by different people.
I understand how the things you brought up can be very confusing at first, but I do not understand how this can cause any major frustration. I just grew into it in my first game of this type.
Chances are, telling by your GF´s reaction, she will just not enjoy this type of game even when she has managed to understand its various aspects. That is in no way insinuating she is stupid or something like that. You say she likes Sim City. Those kind of games are very complex (at least they used to be, no idea about the latest iteration) and you do not grasp all concepts on your first “playthrough” usually. Still, some people enjoy those too.
If you twist a game into something liked by people who usually dislike this type of game, it will stop being this type of game, to the detriment of the people who liked it originally.
But if you change the first ten levels to something that might get new people into this type of game who never would have tried it before, then that’s fine.
Anet hasn’t really changed the core game. The dungeons are still dungeons. The fractals are still fractals. The new zone has harder PvE than older zones,. with new creatures.
Anet isn’t changing the game. They’re changing the introdution to the game to be more forgiving.
I’m not sure why so many seem to think that’s a big deal or a bad thing.
If it’s only pleasing a fraction of the players who get annoyed then it’s not fine.
I for one heard only a few players that they liked the changes and none that said that they love the new way to unlock weaponskills or how the personal story plays out now or that they can dance in front of cows to please them or that they don’t have a downstate for the first few levels.I’ve heard from a quite a few players that really don’t like it. I’ve heard from a few players who barely even know about it. I’ve spoke to some who liked it.
The people it’s meant for our new players. So if a handful, and I believe it is a handful, of players really cant’ stand it and leave and we get more new players out of it, that’s how businesses grow.
This idea that some how there’s this vast majority of people who are going to be so annoyed they’re going to leave over this, or even more, are even really badly affected by this is just a forum firestorm and nothing more.
Anet knows it. Most people probably realize it, so it’s not going to change.
If the over all benefit is more players then it did its job. Anyone who leaves over this was probably going to leave the game anyway. It’s just not that big a deal.
ANet has created the NPE, they’re backpedaling since. They call it “finetuning”.
This alone shows that the changes aren’t fleshed out and created based on incomplete facts. They’ve said that the NPE got developed based upon a survey for players who stopped playing within the first hours. There is only a very minor part of players, otherwise the humanity would be doomed, who stopped playing GW2 because it was too complicated for them and then filled out the survey.
You have to keep in mind that those players got “overwhelmed” by the things the game offers but showed no interest in understanding the things. Do you wholeheartly believe that they will show more interest now that they just have to press 1 all day long to win the game?Every mechanic this game offers, and those aren’t much, can be explained in a proper tutorial. Nothing has to be dumbed down. Nothing has to be dumbed down so much that it reaches dance-in-front-of-cows-to-please-them level.
You say this is a minority of players. How do you know? Can you show me some evidence.
It’s obviously not a minority, or Anet wouldn’t have gone through the time and expense of actually making the changes. Colin’s words “absolutely not good enough” doesn’t seem like a minority to me. Sounds to me like the minority continue on past those levels and they’re trying to get more players to play for longer.
Compromise isn’t backpedaling btw, because much of the changes are still in the game. If they’ve back pedaled so much why are people still complaining, hmmm?
So you say the game needs a tutorial but that this tutorial is “dumbing” down the game? That’s a pretty hard task to master, isn’kitten No idea what exactly you mean with “one time tutorial” that veteran players can turn off the tips and tricks, or that new players would have to master a starter area to progress in the game? I don’t really care about the tool tips to be honest, I can click them away, so whether or not they’re there doesn’t inflict me. I like the “yay you leveled up, here’s some stuff” thing because it makes leveling less boring. If it were a tutorial in which the players were “trapped” until they were able to progress in this game, they would probably be annoyed before they even finished it. I know that I played the tutorials in my offline games after I finished the game.
No, I mean that this game needs a tutorial instead of dumping down tha game.
The game should explain the downstate rather than locking it off, the game should explain bundles you can pick up rather than removing them, the game should explain class mechanics and skills instead of locking them away. The game got dumbed down because there is no proper tutorial. There are some quick tips you get here and there but they wont help. A one-time tutorial could help new players before they start playing regular, while vetaran players don’t have to bother with the tutorial. At the moment vetaran players, as they level an alt, have to bother with that non-existing mechanics just because it could be too complicated for new players.
So you say the game needs a tutorial but that this tutorial is “dumbing” down the game? That’s a pretty hard task to master, isn’kitten No idea what exactly you mean with “one time tutorial” that veteran players can turn off the tips and tricks, or that new players would have to master a starter area to progress in the game? I don’t really care about the tool tips to be honest, I can click them away, so whether or not they’re there doesn’t inflict me. I like the “yay you leveled up, here’s some stuff” thing because it makes leveling less boring. If it were a tutorial in which the players were “trapped” until they were able to progress in this game, they would probably be annoyed before they even finished it. I know that I played the tutorials in my offline games after I finished the game.
No, I mean that this game needs a tutorial instead of dumping down tha game.
The game should explain the downstate rather than locking it off, the game should explain bundles you can pick up rather than removing them, the game should explain class mechanics and skills instead of locking them away. The game got dumbed down because there is no proper tutorial. There are some quick tips you get here and there but they wont help. A one-time tutorial could help new players before they start playing regular, while vetaran players don’t have to bother with the tutorial. At the moment vetaran players, as they level an alt, have to bother with that non-existing mechanics just because it could be too complicated for new players.
Tutorials don’t work for everyone. They’re often ignored by the people who need them the most. I’ve seen it too often for it to be just a random occurrence.
And that doesn’t really deal with the whole package anyway. Anet is talking about people starting to play and not continuing on. They tried various solutions and this one worked best.
It’s not just about “dumbing down”. It’s about pacing, about rewards and about teaching. This is what they chose, because in tests this gave the best results. If it was just about teaching, there might be more to talk about.
No, I mean that this game needs a tutorial instead of dumping down tha game.
The game should explain the downstate rather than locking it off, the game should explain bundles you can pick up rather than removing them, the game should explain class mechanics and skills instead of locking them away. The game got dumbed down because there is no proper tutorial. There are some quick tips you get here and there but they wont help. A one-time tutorial could help new players before they start playing regular, while vetaran players don’t have to bother with the tutorial. At the moment vetaran players, as they level an alt, have to bother with that non-existing mechanics just because it could be too complicated for new players.
Well anet thought that the average player would be smart enough to figure the downed state themselves. They just delayed the introduction of it so people would have to deal with one thing at a time.
And as a veteran player I tell you it doesn’t bother me. I level that fast in general that being restricted until level 7 isn’t a hinderance.
You say this is a minority of players. How do you know? Can you show me some evidence.
It’s obviously not a minority, or Anet wouldn’t have gone through the time and expense of actually making the changes. Colin’s words “absolutely not good enough” doesn’t seem like a minority to me. Sounds to me like the minority continue on past those levels and they’re trying to get more players to play for longer.
Compromise isn’t backpedaling btw, because much of the changes are still in the game. If they’ve back pedaled so much why are people still complaining, hmmm?
Sounds hyperbole to me, which is in line with their previous announcements.
Yes, out of all players who stopped playing GW2 and filled out the survey, those players are the majority. Out of all players who have played or are still playing the game, they’re the vast minority.
Players are still complaining because the mechanics are still locked away. No one complains about level reward, even if I think that that’s the wrong way to approach the boring leveling, they complain about things like dancing in front of cows instead of feeding them like before.
And ANet is backpedaling, they rushed their NPE changes expecting no great uprising. But the backclash came and it was intense. How do you want to claim you’re catering to the masses if the “features” are upsetting so many players.
Tutorials don’t work for everyone. They’re often ignored by the people who need them the most. I’ve seen it too often for it to be just a random occurrence.
And that doesn’t really deal with the whole package anyway. Anet is talking about people starting to play and not continuing on. They tried various solutions and this one worked best.
It’s not just about “dumbing down”. It’s about pacing, about rewards and about teaching. This is what they chose, because in tests this gave the best results. If it was just about teaching, there might be more to talk about.
I say it once again: If players are “overwhelmed” and reject the help given to them then there is no need to hold these players because they would leave sooner than later anyway. Then GW2 isn’t their game. On the other hand the old introduction to the game was able to hold more than 3 million players who are still active.
And the NPE changes do not teach. They remove everything that would have to be teached. They could tell new players that they have to hit weaponswap to get rid of bundles, instead they removed bundles. They could show players what the downstate is and what it’s good for, instead they locked it. They could’ve told player that the get their armor back in the Sylvari PS, if they go to the marked NPC, instead the Sylvari are now wearing their gear from the beginning. They could explain players the classmechanics, instead the locked them away. They could explain gathering nodes, instead the lock them away. It’s not about teaching, not in the slightest. It’s about locking everything away that would have to be teached.
(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)
You say this is a minority of players. How do you know? Can you show me some evidence.
It’s obviously not a minority, or Anet wouldn’t have gone through the time and expense of actually making the changes. Colin’s words “absolutely not good enough” doesn’t seem like a minority to me. Sounds to me like the minority continue on past those levels and they’re trying to get more players to play for longer.
Compromise isn’t backpedaling btw, because much of the changes are still in the game. If they’ve back pedaled so much why are people still complaining, hmmm?
Sounds hyperbole to me, which is in line with their previous announcements.
Yes, out of all players who stopped playing GW2 and filled out the survey, those players are the majority. Out of all players who have played or are still playing the game, they’re the vast minority.
Players are still complaining because the mechanics are still locked away. No one complains about level reward, even if I think that that’s the wrong way to approach the boring leveling, they complain about things like dancing in front of cows instead of feeding them like before.
And ANet is backpedaling, they rushed their NPE changes expecting no great uprising. But the backclash came and it was intense. How do you want to claim you’re catering to the masses if the “features” are upsetting so many players.
Anet didn’t say they were catering to the players that are playing the game with the NPE. They said they were catering to the public not playing the game.
I’m willing to bet that more people don’t play this game than do. I’d even go as far to say there are more people not playing this game who would enjoy it than currently play it. It’s a pretty safe bet. Those are the masses. Not the people currently playing.
I say it once again: If players are “overwhelmed” and reject the help given to them then there is no need to hold these players because they would leave sooner than later anyway. Then GW2 isn’t their game. On the other hand the old introduction to the game was able to hold more than 3 million players who are still active.
The first help players get in this game is the thing you deem useless and “dumbing down” the game. There was no help before that other than 2 pop ups.
(edited by Jana.6831)
Tutorials don’t work for everyone. They’re often ignored by the people who need them the most. I’ve seen it too often for it to be just a random occurrence.
And that doesn’t really deal with the whole package anyway. Anet is talking about people starting to play and not continuing on. They tried various solutions and this one worked best.
It’s not just about “dumbing down”. It’s about pacing, about rewards and about teaching. This is what they chose, because in tests this gave the best results. If it was just about teaching, there might be more to talk about.
I say it once again: If players are “overwhelmed” and reject the help given to them then there is no need to hold these players because they would leave sooner than later anyway. Then GW2 isn’t their game. On the other hand the old introduction to the game was able to hold more than 3 million players who are still active.
What evidence do you have this this game has held 3 million players, or even close to that number?
3 million or so started playing the game and we know a boatload of them left when ascended gear was introduced…or if we don’t know it, we can infer it from both what people have said and what we saw in game.
There may or may not be 3 million people playing this game, but I suspect the number is quite a bit less. It would be very surprising to me if it were that many.
People leave games all the time. There’s a natural attrition in games. We haven’t yet heard that the game has old five million copies.
And yes, there are probably people in China right now playing that would up the number considerably but do you really think such a huge percentage of people are still playing two years later?
That means getting more players. Your assertion that people who reject help they need one stay anyway is based on what? What makes you think they’d leave anyway?
If people are being helped in spite of themselves and it gives them an anchor into the game, there’s more chance they’re stay, not leave. That’s logical in my mind anyway.
No, I mean that this game needs a tutorial instead of dumping down tha game.
The game should explain the downstate rather than locking it off, the game should explain bundles you can pick up rather than removing them, the game should explain class mechanics and skills instead of locking them away. The game got dumbed down because there is no proper tutorial. There are some quick tips you get here and there but they wont help. A one-time tutorial could help new players before they start playing regular, while vetaran players don’t have to bother with the tutorial. At the moment vetaran players, as they level an alt, have to bother with that non-existing mechanics just because it could be too complicated for new players.Well anet thought that the average player would be smart enough to figure the downed state themselves. They just delayed the introduction of it so people would have to deal with one thing at a time.
And as a veteran player I tell you it doesn’t bother me. I level that fast in general that being restricted until level 7 isn’t a hinderance.
They don’t only locked the downstate but also the skills of the downstate, which you will unlock later. Yet they’re still not explaining the downstate or its skills.