Guild Wars 2

The DR is simply a hindrance for legit players.
It simply acts as an artificial timer for how long you can play.

It limits how long you can stay in a single area. I find that just stupid. Let’s say I’m in a level 40-45 area and I just want to stay around there and it’s only got the same type of creatures in there.

To solve the DR, some would say “Go explore else where, or go ____”.

Why should I do that? I want to be in that area as it would be the appropriate are for me to be in at that level. I don’t want to have to go somewhere else just to have to work around some system that wasn’t aimed at me.

Although in the cases of Orr and being 80, I’m simply left with the constant feeling of “Have I been here for too long? It’s been 10 minutes, has the DR kicked in, I should probably quit for the day for”.

Will bots suffer from this? Not as much. Why? They simply run constantly for hours. Not to mention they’ve already have hacked in teleports which I’d assume they would easily program the bot to just teleport to different locations after certain amount of time. So they wouldn’t be hindered by this.

While a legit player like me has to think if playing 10 minutes in orr is too much.

I like doing low level events. Fun and easy and still get 250 karma each time. I don’t need a legendary weapon today. It can come next week or next month for all I care. I have full exotic gear and can do any content, anywhere. That’s good enough for me and the reason I enjoy this game.

I feel the same as well. Sadly, though, I think people like us, who actually have a bit of patience and a higher maturity level are somewhat of a minority. Most of the people complaining about the DR are probably in the “I want my shinies now now NOW!” camp.

And then they complain once they get everything they want, demand more content NOW and ragequit because they purposefully rushed and ran out of things to do when the developer doesn’t immediately fall all over themselves and cave to their demands.

tOss.9024:

ounkeo.9138:

tOss.9024:

Alesana.1390:

If you want to grind for hours

Hi. I work. I don’t get to play the game, casually wandering around and enjoying the scenery, idling around and roleplaying, like the supposed developer’s vision. I log on in the weekends and play hard and fast. I shouldn’t get punished for that. I shouldn’t get my account put into some endlessly DR mode, making monsters entirely worthless to kill for god knows how long, simply because I have focused sessions when I actually get to sit down to play.

I work, go to college, and have a child to look after. Why turn this game into another job, logging on to rush to the end when you can just enjoy the ride; however long it takes? Again, why try to play a game in a manner it wasn’t meant to be played, then get upset because you can’t do it?
“I don’t get to play…” this just shows you stopped looking at this as a game.

removing impedements to game play won’t ever change how you play your game. It just won’t.

If they removed diminishing returns, how would this affect your ability to play the game you currently play? It wouldn’t. At all. And If I’m not mistaken, the greatest source of complaints is on level 80’s complaining about diminishing returns… Like I said above, i give Anet benefit of doubt that this is completely unintended for a legit player to start a large event chain and by the end, get penalised for it with diminshed returns.

How in the green earth are you or anyone else able to argue for a system as broken as that.

That is like going on a rollercoaster ride that slows down every 5 seconds and by the 15th second, it stops completely and you have to get off the carriage, wait 30 minutes (or however long) before it starts again.

You are arguing that this is the way it was intended by design. i would argue that this was not by design at all. In fact, it was designed counter to that. The slowdown and forcing you to get out of the carriage is an artificial rule enforced on a system designed to be run completely through in 1 minute instead of start/stop over the next 1 hour before you complete the ride.

Just look at the whoel design of the game. It is counter, completely counter, to your arguements. the rules they are enforcing are working against the actual design which is why we have broken diminishing returns on legit activities.

As I said a couple posts above you, I’m not saying that DR couldn’t be toned down. I’m open to different views.(as I stated in the OP) It does seem from some posts that the leash is somewhat tight. However, I know others who don’t have a huge problem with it. Again, they have access to the empirical data, not I. Which is why I argue to let the developer work towards a better, sustainable system. And, rather then being so obtuse about the matter, be patient. I don’t think that a player shouldn’t offer some insight(after all, there is an entire subforum for this) but one should be more considerate of the people doing all of the work.

Diminishing rewards is assinine. It wasn’t in the origninal design. It was a knee jerk reaction to botting. The fix was more problematic than the problem. The hackers and botters will find anotehr way to exploit the game. Its their job. They are adept at it.

If you want to fix a bot problem, you quickly identify them and remove them. Most people play in sessions. They get a couple of hours to play, they stop and get back to life.

Furthermore, you have a system that rewards grind. You want to become adept at crafting? = you have to grind out a huge amount of materials. You want that karma armor? You have to grind out 42,000 per piece. You want Gold? You have to grind out events.

Unless of course, this isn’t about botting. Maybe it’s just a way to fortify the cash shop. I can basically buy my armor at the cash shop. I can buy more karma with karma boosters. This is a sham way of covering up the fact that GW2 is pay for play. GW1 was actually free to play.

Nyaochan.1756:

I like doing low level events. Fun and easy and still get 250 karma each time. I don’t need a legendary weapon today. It can come next week or next month for all I care. I have full exotic gear and can do any content, anywhere. That’s good enough for me and the reason I enjoy this game.

I feel the same as well. Sadly, though, I think people like us, who actually have a bit of patience and a higher maturity level are somewhat of a minority. Most of the people complaining about the DR are probably in the “I want my shinies now now NOW!” camp.

And then they complain once they get everything they want, demand more content NOW and ragequit because they purposefully rushed and ran out of things to do when the developer doesn’t immediately fall all over themselves and cave to their demands.

You don’t get it, do you?

If I want to stay in any Orr area and do events and stuff LEGITIMATELY, then I’m still punished by the DR system, because every single of the monsters there is tagged as “risen”.

If I want to farm copper and collectables in order to level my crafting proffessions, then I should be able to do it within a day IF I want to give the required time to the game. Noone should tell me “ok,enough copper and collectables for today from this area”. Especially when the amount of materials needed for each crafting tier are humongous.

Additionally,I will just ignore your 2nd paragraph, because that’s just generalization and it’s only there to try to make your argument stronger due to lack of actual facts. Sorry, but the request is only one and it’s simple: Remove the diminishing returns.

I don’t know if you have noticed, but most of the players who ask for this are aware of how long bugs take to fix or how long new content takes to be created. If you haven’t,then you only prove your blindness and bias towards anyone who makes a complain about something.

Groonz.7825:

The DR is simply a hindrance for legit players.
It simply acts as an artificial timer for how long you can play. .

It’s a hindrance for some players, not all and in my view most players haven’t got a problem with this.

It’s not a timer for how long you can play, that is entirely self-inflicted. You can play as long as you want. You just don’t get as much reward for grinding the same mobs or events all day long. My view: boohoo.

Groonz.7825:

It limits how long you can stay in a single area. I find that just stupid. Let’s say I’m in a level 40-45 area and I just want to stay around there and it’s only got the same type of creatures in there. .

It’s not a time limit for an area but yes it does encourage you to visit more areas. Also other areas have more than one type of mob, unlike Orr, so your example doesn’t reall make sense.

Groonz.7825:

To solve the DR, some would say “Go explore else where, or go ____”. .

Why should I do that? I want to be in that area as it would be the appropriate are for me to be in at that level. I don’t want to have to go somewhere else just to have to work around some system that wasn’t aimed at me. .[/quote]

You want to grind the same mobs and events in the same area all day. You can still do that, you just don’t get rewarded for that. Very disturbing for a game that isn’t made for grinders.

Groonz.7825:

Although in the cases of Orr and being 80, I’m simply left with the constant feeling of “Have I been here for too long? It’s been 10 minutes, has the DR kicked in, I should probably quit for the day for”. .

If you have a lot of magic find and you grind the same events over and over again the time will come sooner yes. But please get it in your head that all other things aside, this game wasn’t designed around that gameplay. If that’s what you like, you really are in the wrong game. It’s that simple. You can grind, but it’s not what Anet wants to reward aside from the whole botting issue.

Groonz.7825:

Will bots suffer from this? Not as much. Why? They simply run constantly for hours. Not to mention they’ve already have hacked in teleports which I’d assume they would easily program the bot to just teleport to different locations after certain amount of time. So they wouldn’t be hindered by this. .

They are hindered by this for various reasons, but yes they will adapt and more measures are needed. No point in making it easier for them again though.

Groonz.7825:

While a legit player like me has to think if playing 10 minutes in orr is too much.

You just care about the rewards, not what you are actually doing. I don’t believe you really enjoy Orr as an area or the events for the 100th time in a row. That’s ok if you are like that….it’s just not what this game was made for though.

It’s an example I gave in another thread. If you buy a CD with Country music on it, would you get upset and write a letter to the company to complain that there is no Heavy Metal music on it?
No, because you know that when you buy a CD like that it’s that type of music. If you want a grind game with end gear progression, why buy a game that isn’t built around that?

That is just still the biggest mystery to me. Is it just because it’s a fantasy MMO that you ignored the rest of the previews and advertisements that all talked about how this isn’t that type of game?

Nyaochan.1756:

I like doing low level events. Fun and easy and still get 250 karma each time. I don’t need a legendary weapon today. It can come next week or next month for all I care. I have full exotic gear and can do any content, anywhere. That’s good enough for me and the reason I enjoy this game.

I feel the same as well. Sadly, though, I think people like us, who actually have a bit of patience and a higher maturity level are somewhat of a minority. Most of the people complaining about the DR are probably in the “I want my shinies now now NOW!” camp.

And then they complain once they get everything they want, demand more content NOW and ragequit because they purposefully rushed and ran out of things to do when the developer doesn’t immediately fall all over themselves and cave to their demands.

Sorry but no, i did not rush and i am not demanding new content, i am just asking for the game to play as it did prior to the 9-18-12 update. I would like to be able to gather the materials for my crafting professions, in a manner that i prefer. I do not enjoy being forced to either buy gems for gold, or use the trade post for every time i want to get materials for crafting.

I am not rage quitting, i am not raging, i just would appreciate the game to allow me to play the way i prefer, and had played prior to that update.

I think that you just want to marginalize players who dislike the DR, you would rather denigrate players, and try to categorize those of us who disagree with you.

I would prefer more discussion, preferably with Anet in that conversation, but Anet has decided to cover there ears and shake there heads yelling “na na na na na i can’t hear you”.

I like doing low level events. Fun and easy and still get 250 karma each time. I don’t need a legendary weapon today. It can come next week or next month for all I care. I have full exotic gear and can do any content, anywhere. That’s good enough for me and the reason I enjoy this game.

DR is okay, as I already have everything I need.

DR is a big “screw you” to weekend warriors who play part of saturday and then get blocked from content for the rest of the weekend.

Apos.5184:

Nyaochan.1756:

I like doing low level events. Fun and easy and still get 250 karma each time. I don’t need a legendary weapon today. It can come next week or next month for all I care. I have full exotic gear and can do any content, anywhere. That’s good enough for me and the reason I enjoy this game.

I feel the same as well. Sadly, though, I think people like us, who actually have a bit of patience and a higher maturity level are somewhat of a minority. Most of the people complaining about the DR are probably in the “I want my shinies now now NOW!” camp.

And then they complain once they get everything they want, demand more content NOW and ragequit because they purposefully rushed and ran out of things to do when the developer doesn’t immediately fall all over themselves and cave to their demands.

You don’t get it, do you?

If I want to stay in any Orr area and do events and stuff LEGITIMATELY, then I’m still punished by the DR system, because every single of the monsters there is tagged as “risen”.

If I want to farm copper and collectables in order to level my crafting proffessions, then I should be able to do it within a day IF I want to give the required time to the game. Noone should tell me “ok,enough copper and collectables for today from this area”. Especially when the amount of materials needed for each crafting tier are humongous.

Additionally,I will just ignore your 2nd paragraph, because that’s just generalization and it’s only there to try to make your argument stronger due to lack of actual facts. Sorry, but the request is only one and it’s simple: Remove the diminishing returns.

I don’t know if you have noticed, but most of the players who ask for this are aware of how long bugs take to fix or how long new content takes to be created. If you haven’t,then you only prove your blindness and bias towards anyone who makes a complain about something.

You can still go farm your money by relocating to different areas regularly. In the end, it’s your own problem if DR is kicking in and your too stubborn to go farm somewhere else for a bit. It’s a HUGE world, but instead of making maybe slightly less than you would be farming the max level areas, you would rather not make anything at all because you’re too stubborn to backtrack.

It’s really not that hard to make money/get stuff by just running along the roads back through previous areas and just killing everything you run across. And you’d be constantly switching areas/seeing different mob variety, and so DR wouldn’t be kicking in as prominently.

And if you can’t actually use the mats you pick up doing this, then just sell them. Less income is still better than none at all.

I hear a ton of argument (@Red Falcon, @deriver, @Nyaochan) against a player suggesting an issue w/ the game, but not one argument as to why DR needs to stay.

Seriously, if you want to defend DR so much, do so with valid points.

And if you know “Game Design 101” so well, then you’d likely also know “User Experience 101” well enough to know that you don’t impose a negative impact on one system to accommodate another unless there is clearly no other alternative and that you are guaranteed a better result than otherwise.

Last I checked, bots are in full swing, growing in numbers. So who did the DR really have an affect on?

Nyaochan.1756:

You can still go farm your money by relocating to different areas regularly. In the end, it’s your own problem if DR is kicking in and your too stubborn to go farm somewhere else for a bit. It’s a HUGE world, but instead of making maybe slightly less than you would be farming the max level areas, you would rather not make anything at all because you’re too stubborn to backtrack.

It’s really not that hard to make money/get stuff by just running along the roads back through previous areas and just killing everything you run across. And you’d be constantly switching areas/seeing different mob variety, and so DR wouldn’t be kicking in as prominently.

And if you can’t actually use the mats you pick up doing this, then just sell them. Less income is still better than none at all.

I didn’t say anything about farming money,I said about farming for crafting.

If I’m willing to give the required time, then there should be absolutely no mechanism stalling my progress towards a goal. It’s simple as that. If they want something to take longer, then just make it take longer, don’t hinder the player.

And no,I won’t farm lower materials and sell them, first of all because it’s most likely to keep them for an alt instead of selling them, but this is not what I want to do at that time. I want to progress towards a specific tier of crafting, not a different one. Not to mention that the tax cuts will mean that I’m also progressing slower once again.

If I want to pvp for a whole day,I should and I am able to do it.
If I want to WvWvW for a whole, I should be able to do it. Right now I can’t, because the diminishing return system is so badly made that it affects killing players as well.
If I want to level up a crafting proffession for a whole day,I should be able to do that as well.

A game gives options of doing X,Y,Z, whatever. Noone should dictate that you did enough of X for the day.

It has nothing to do with botting, it’s about the fact that what you are supposed to offer is a world where the player is able to log in and do what he wants from the options he is offered.

Isn’t that what Anet was bragging about trying to make?

Lance Coolee.9480:

I hear a ton of argument (@Red Falcon, @deriver, @Nyaochan) against a player suggesting an issue w/ the game, but not one argument as to why DR needs to stay.

Seriously, if you want to defend DR so much, do so with valid points.

And if you know “Game Design 101” so well, then you’d likely also know “User Experience 101” well enough to know that you don’t impose a negative impact on one system to accommodate another unless there is clearly no other alternative and that you are guaranteed a better result than otherwise.

Last I checked, bots are in full swing, growing in numbers. So who did the DR really have an affect on?

^^This ^^

Great comment.

The saddest thing is that i fear the DR was truly implemented now to get players to spend money on gems. It has done nothing to curtail the botters, in fact it made them fall back on more intrusive tactics that affect players even more (like multiboxing in Orr events).

I truly never really put much stock into that idea (that DR was only implmented to force players to buy gems) but the more they remain silent on this subject and the more i see how detrimental it has been to honest players vs botters, well i just end up coming to a really bad conclusion.

Thanks for your post Coolee.

Groonz.7825:

The DR is simply a hindrance for legit players.
It simply acts as an artificial timer for how long you can play.

It limits how long you can stay in a single area. I find that just stupid. Let’s say I’m in a level 40-45 area and I just want to stay around there and it’s only got the same type of creatures in there.

To solve the DR, some would say “Go explore else where, or go ____”.

Why should I do that? I want to be in that area as it would be the appropriate are for me to be in at that level. I don’t want to have to go somewhere else just to have to work around some system that wasn’t aimed at me.

But the entire game is level appropriate, only some drops outside of Orr and even within give gear that’s 4 levels below yours. Think outside the box.

Agemnon.4608:

Groonz.7825:

The DR is simply a hindrance for legit players.
It simply acts as an artificial timer for how long you can play.

It limits how long you can stay in a single area. I find that just stupid. Let’s say I’m in a level 40-45 area and I just want to stay around there and it’s only got the same type of creatures in there.

To solve the DR, some would say “Go explore else where, or go ____”.

Why should I do that? I want to be in that area as it would be the appropriate are for me to be in at that level. I don’t want to have to go somewhere else just to have to work around some system that wasn’t aimed at me.

But the entire game is level appropriate, only some drops outside of Orr and even within give gear that’s 4 levels below yours. Think outside the box.

See a lot of us are not talking about “gear” we are mostly talking about crafting mats that mobs drop, you do not get those from killing mobs in low level areas, you get the low level materials from low level areas. If i could acquire those materials in any area then i would not have any issues with DR, but i can’t so i do have a problem.

Lance Coolee.9480:

I hear a ton of argument (@Red Falcon, @deriver, @Nyaochan) against a player suggesting an issue w/ the game, but not one argument as to why DR needs to stay.

Seriously, if you want to defend DR so much, do so with valid points.

And if you know “Game Design 101” so well, then you’d likely also know “User Experience 101” well enough to know that you don’t impose a negative impact on one system to accommodate another unless there is clearly no other alternative and that you are guaranteed a better result than otherwise.

Last I checked, bots are in full swing, growing in numbers. So who did the DR really have an affect on?

Personally, it’s not that I am defending DR. I didn’t think it was the most elegant solution, but I don’t know what all happens behind the scenes at Anet and I just figure that they do have a reason to do it.

Partially I am sure it is part of their anti-botting approach but a small part of it and this part also affects the playstyle of a relatively small group of players.
I say small because most people aren’t level 80 yet as it is and I there are also players like myself who are level 80 and are not affected at all by this DR situation.

Aside from that it touches on a deeper issue and this has to do with playstyles and not so much with DR itself. GW2 was made for the people who aren’t affected by this. They are the target audience as I see it and by default then you are not.

So, again, I am not defending DR but I don’t have a problem with it myself and I when I see the reasons from people who are against DR generally, I can only say that these people are playing the wrong game. This isn’t a game that fits your playstyle. And so most of my comments come from not understanding why you would buy a game that per definition isn’t about your playstyle. Sure, you may have found a way to make the game fit your playstyle for a little while but I am convinced that what you guys did with this Orr grinding is diametrically opposed to what this game was made for. I would say that what you did was something Anet perhaps didn’t even expect to happen.

So, DR by itself has not love from me, but when I see who is upset about it and why, then suddenly it becomes a good thing to me, because I would hate for this game to turn into an Orr grind for everybody just because that’s what other people are already doing, thereby completely bypassing what this game is for. That by itself could be detrimental to this game and a danger to its existence.

I am sorry that it screws up your game but you were playing it in a way that was not intended. You could say it’s your choice, but then as being the group that rushed to 80, you also set the tone for those who follow. And there I am not sad if this is broken. Sure, a number of people will leave because of it or already have, but for what I think the game is intended for, that’s probably for the best.

Just my view. For the rest see my signature

In the end it doesn’t matter. If a bot can teleport to monsters and kill them, the bot can also teleport around the map and kill monsters. It could go through portals and kill monsters.

Dradiin.8935:

Agemnon.4608:

Groonz.7825:

The DR is simply a hindrance for legit players.
It simply acts as an artificial timer for how long you can play.

It limits how long you can stay in a single area. I find that just stupid. Let’s say I’m in a level 40-45 area and I just want to stay around there and it’s only got the same type of creatures in there.

To solve the DR, some would say “Go explore else where, or go ____”.

Why should I do that? I want to be in that area as it would be the appropriate are for me to be in at that level. I don’t want to have to go somewhere else just to have to work around some system that wasn’t aimed at me.

But the entire game is level appropriate, only some drops outside of Orr and even within give gear that’s 4 levels below yours. Think outside the box.

See a lot of us are not talking about “gear” we are mostly talking about crafting mats that mobs drop, you do not get those from killing mobs in low level areas, you get the low level materials from low level areas. If i could acquire those materials in any area then i would not have any issues with DR, but i can’t so i do have a problem.

That’s the way it should be, especially since character level typically outpaces crafting level. You’ll still need jute when you’re getting wool and even cotton (and in my case even silk) drops. Have you tried relogging or entering another map and switching back?

@Gehenna:

We have already established that the DR returns barely affect bots. Alright?

Having the DR system punishes those who “are not the target audience”, like you like to claim.

Not having the DR system punishes noone. Since it doesn’t affect you when it exists, its absence won’t have an effect on your type of players, right?

So…I’ll let you make the logical conclusion of this. Especially since most of the players can see that the DR system has barely scratched the bot activity in-game.

and now you are guilty of doing exactly what you said I was doing, you are taking my words and being over literal with it, when I say arbitrary imitation I mean within the context of the game, there is a difference between a mechanic that serves a purpose to further gameplay and a mechanic that imposes a limitation on gameplay for the sake of imposing a developers personal will on people that may disagree (again, not something I’m saying ANet are doing, just a distinction that I think people (in particular you) need to understand)

I understand the distinction perfectly. Do you?

What do you say about the experience points curve needed to level up? Does GW2, by having 60 more levels, hinders the gameplay experience of someone used to GW1 or furthers it?

I can’t think of a reason that would lead me to believe that the experience per level has any other objective than to hinder people’s gameplay, to an extent. People hate when leveling up takes so long, don’t they? WoW did a great job reducing by 1/10 the time investment needed to level up since it’s first days.

Now, do you think that those numbers are anything but the devs personal visions about how long it should take for you and me to level up? By your definition, the leveling curve would fit the evil mechanic side, but it’s clearly not the case. And like it, almost every single other mechanic they’ve put in place on their game is nothing more than their vision about what should be an expected gameplay experience.

Someone like to farm? He will have to farm as fast as the game allows him. Same with leveling… Some people like to race to the top, but no matter how fast he would love to get there, he can only go as fast as the system allows. Admittedly not with a DR system in place for the former, although if they wanted us to level slower, they could just increase the numbers between levels.

Now going back on topic…

In this game there is no resource or loot “tagging”, meaning everyone will have a share of the goodies. This mechanic alone (that no other MMO i’ve played so far has) brings way more artificially created resources to the economy as any other mechanic in any other game. If people were free to farm as much as they wanted, how long would you think it would take to completely saturate the market and make everything cost nothing but a penny? Would this be a good thing to the game’s economy?

Apos.5184:

@Gehenna:

We have already established that the DR returns barely affect bots. Alright?

No you haven’t. You just think you have but there are no facts presented here other than a few people saying there are still or more bots. That doesn’t make it a fact, nor does it establish anything.

Apos.5184:

Having the DR system punishes those who “are not the target audience”, like you like to claim.

It doesn’t reward a repetitive grind style of play, which is LOGICAL in a game that claims not to be about grind.

Apos.5184:

Not having the DR system punishes noone. Since it doesn’t affect you when it exists, its absence won’t have an effect on your type of players, right?

Not having DR makes that grinding Orr becomes the trend again. That is a bad trend for the game and all the players who don’t play like you, so I disagree with you yet again.

Apos.5184:

So…I’ll let you make the logical conclusion of this. Especially since most of the players can see that the DR system has barely scratched the bot activity in-game.

There is no logical conclusion as you base yourself on opinions and non sequiturs.

Also most of the players haven’t reached level 80 yet, so per definition your comment is false. And since DR is probably just a small part of the total approach I cannot say what their intent is with it an what effects they are actually trying to generate with this. It could very well be that they, for example, expected an increase in bots, since they need more bots for the same gain. And they forced this because the more visible they are, the easier it is to get to the root of the problem. Just banning the bots without deeper research would be pointless. So I think you overestimate your knowledge of what is really going on on Anet’s side. Neither of us knows, but at least I am not saying I know, just what I think. That’s not the same.

And let me make clear, that I am not saying that there are no bots but on my server (Piken Square) I haven’t seen many at all, but then I don’t spend all evening in Orr because I prefer variation over reward per second gameplay.

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