Guild Wars 2

Note: This is a cross-post from Reddit that I had written a few days ago. By request of some redditors, I’m making the statement here.

Three days ago Colin Johanson had this to say about the feature patch on Reddit:

I think that’s a totally fair question, as a veteran user I’d wonder that too – why does making the game better for new users benefit me when I want features that benefit me?

The simple answer is: by ensuring the game foundation is solid for new users, we’ll be in a place after the feature pack where we can do the kind of things that excite both veteran and new users simultaneously, and we’ll be able to retain a much larger percentage of the new or long returning users when they show up. Can’t say anything more than that yet – but that’s the thinking, you don’t need to agree with it, but it’s important to know why the decision was made!

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2etzxq/a_fresh_start_the_new_player_experience_in_guild/ck35jpy

The bolding was mine, because I think this statement needs to be examined and carefully considered.

People aren’t leaving the game because of the leveling process. And if they are, it’s more likely because of the trait overhaul system you implemented in April. I don’t insinuate that I know everything or why everyone necessarily leaves before 80, but if someone quits the game because they think the leveling process is too vague about what the downed mechanics mean, then there’s no way they’re going to unlock enough traits to participate in any meaningful way in end-game group-oriented content.

I can, however, more than happily illuminate as to why people leave the game upon reaching 80. People are leaving the game, and have been leaving the game since 2012, because the end-game content of GW2 is very, very basic. Tequatl is on full-blown farm status at this point, so a new player can walk up and participate in this content without actually having to show any work for it. They might even walk away with Tequatl’s Horde and not even understand what it is. (And as someone that has killed Teq hundreds of times, this happens a lot.)

The only content that regularly challenges players still and frequently fails are Wurm and high-level fractals. The problem with both of these content areas, however, are their rewards. The loot table is for the most part random and does not reward you in any way due to personal involvement. A leecher AFKing at the waypoint after tagging Tequatl once has just as equal chances to looting a Tequatl’s Horde as I do manning a turret or helping on defense. Is that appropriate?

One time there was this guild of guys that were trolling a defense group at Tequatl. They would overscale the event, they would not help out in ways that were appropriate, they would leave my guildies to die, and would pull mobs into the batteries on defense phases. They did not in any way impact our ability to complete it, but it wasn’t very nice dealing with really petty players like that. And at the end of the fight one of them looted a Tequatl’s Horde and linked it in chat. I was so furious.

We have asked so many times that you guys allow us a little more control on how Teq and Wurm is organized. We don’t necessarily need to have it fully enclosed, but some kind of mass invite system to a fresh map would go a long way at improving the quality of life for people like me that for a long time helped manage and lead these kinds of events. But you were so concerned about leaving new players out of the content that our requests were denied, ignored, or outright criticized for being elitist. I understand your desire for “facilitating friendly play,” as you put it back in April, as our leading these events were a means to an end to keep casuals playing the game and feeling included.

But the current system for Tequatl and Wurm does not suffice. The loot table is too random and poorly rewards players that show up every day. And it’s very heartbreaking for me to watch. As the year progressed it became harder and harder to push people to do turrets and defense because there was no incentive. My guild has for the past year provided a daily Tequatl kill to anyone that manages to get on our map. But what’s important to clarify is that we were often hanging by a thread getting people to step up and lead these events, or even just hopping on turrets or helping on defense.

Before I decided to quit the game, we even started doing leaderless kills because no one wanted to step up and do it. We just all wanted a chance at the loot. The system does not in any way facilitate or incentivize leading, and some of our best commanders just got tired of leading a few days a week and never getting a Horde for it.

And I wish this was the only area of the game where this is a problem, but it’s not.

In essence, as a community we have been running completely blind over the past year as to what exactly the direction of the game is and what is being done to address these end-game concerns.

This silence would more than acceptable, but this has coincided with some of the strongest gem store pushes including, but not limited to infinite harvesting tools, copper/silver-fed-salvage-o-matics, costumes, toys, and mini pets. You’re clearly dedicating resources to supporting the game and adding new content—especially with regard to the Living Story.

Are things like the FOTM loot table and Teq/Wurm rewards just not a concern for you? Because any time questions are raised about the direction of GW2’s end-game we’re met with nebulous non-speak that would even impress Peter Molyneux.

Now for the “it’s only been two years” argument, it’s true. It’s generally common that MMOs don’t really hit their stride until a few years into their life. It’s at that point the dedicated community is established and the developers have a good idea in mind of where they want to take the game. FFXI was a good game at launch (provided it was 1 year old when it reached the States), but it didn’t really enter into its prime until Chains of Promathia came out.

But the thing to keep in mind about all of this is that CoP built upon preexisting systems in FFXI. The Living Story S2 is entirely disconnected from fractals, dungeons, and even open world raiding. It all takes place in single-player instances and what open world content we’ve received is both (1) completely unrewarding for those working on legendaries and (2) does nothing to challenge or excite two-year veterans of the game.

What happened to stuff like Marionette and the Scarlet invasion? What happened to stuff like Flame & Frost? Super Adventure Box? S1 had a lot of negative stuff in it and the story was (imo) awful, but it also had some very good content that was engaging, fun, and challenging. You had to work with other players to succeed during LS1. In LS2 it’s all solitary. I don’t feel like I’m playing an MMO anymore.

And during the times that I do, like FOTM and Teq, I feel like I’m just being punished for it.

S2 is no where near as engaging kitten for this reason, even if the plot is better this time around. My guild has literally nothing to do in this game together anymore except Tequatl and Wurm, and that content is getting very old very fast due to aforementioned loot issues.

And while I’m more than happy with just walking away and taking a break until they add new stuff, I am beyond frustrated that some of my most dedicated guild members that step up every day still haven’t been rewarded for it.

I don’t know where the game is headed from here, but it would be nice if you took a few of these complaints under consideration and prevented more players from quitting the game and satisfying them, even if it is kinda too late for me.

Keeping veteran players is not and never will be a priority in b2p or f2p games. New players are much more likely to invest money in Gems for new character slots, bag space, and convenience items. Vets don’t make the company money.

It’s always about the cash. The rest is smoke, mirrors, and empty words.

That’s a lot of words for saying nothing new. I kinda feel bad for whoever typed all this out hoping it would have any effect on the direction of the game.

Look, they said they’re going to do some stuff after the Feature Patch. Let’s at least see what they’re talking about. If that’s too hard you could maybe go freeze yourself for a few months. That is, unless you have anything else to do.

^Okay I understand why you are mad you are not rewarded for your hard work but its a game and to be honest I am one of those guys who killed Telquat and did not know a thing I did not got the hoard but you see this is a great thing about this game you do not have to be great and put a lot of effort to be rewarded its not real life(I do not wanna do a lot of work in a game after a lot of work in real life) its a great system were you reward casual and its good because casual is what most of the players are and its nothing wrong with that. Do other things GW 2 has to offer like puzzles nobody does them it seems and their hard to finish because you need a group, try to solo Arah fight a champion 1vs1 and see if you can win kitten the precursors, reward yourself by doing feats other do not.

Andred.1087:

That is, unless you have anything else to do.

I do, but that’s kind of irrelevant. I love this game and would rather spend my time playing it than playing a different one.

adormtil.1605:

^Okay I understand why you are mad you are not rewarded for your hard work but its a game and to be honest I am one of those guys who killed Telquat and did not know a thing I did not got the hoard but you see this is a great thing about this game you do not have to be great and put a lot of effort to be rewarded

Some of us play video games because we want to be challenged. It’s contextual-based critical thinking. It’s like solving a jigsaw puzzle, but instead with dragons and fiery greatswords.

And I do find this more fun than stitching pieces of cardboard together.

And just to make something clear: a lot of hard work and effort goes into organizing those Tequatl kills. And we haven’t really been rewarded for it.

To provide a little more context, do you think it’s fair that easy content like Dry Top facilitates all the ways to get all the weapons you want in a reasonable time frame while FOTM 50 content, that’s actually difficult to do in the first place, is gated entirely by RNG?

They could design a system that easily keeps casuals involved while still rewarding people that show up every day. They do that exact type of system in dungeons. It confuses me that Tequatl and Wurm doesn’t have any kind of token system that would perfectly counterbalance the RNG issue while still making these skins hard to obtain.

killcannon.2576:

Vets don’t make the company money.

I am pretty sure that ArenaNet made a lot of money off me. And they will continue to do so if they implement these changes. But not anymore until they do.

Phineas Poe.3018:

killcannon.2576:

Vets don’t make the company money.

I am pretty sure that ArenaNet made a lot of money off me. And they will continue to do so if they implement these changes. But not anymore until they do.

And for every new player they will make more.

New players aren’t disillusioned or jaded and are more inclined to get the shinies. Older players are more inclined to move on regardless of the amount, or type, of content available.

Newcomers just generate more income per player. It’s part of the b2p, f2p paradigm.

It really seems gw2 does encourage only casual game play anymore, no new raids and dungeons for over a year. It makes someone wonder if the overall market strategy could have shifted to drive player in search for a more rewarding hardcore experience to a certain other MMO which has put that word on its flag … which is “surprisingly” also owned by NCsoft.

killcannon.2576:

New players aren’t disillusioned or jaded and are more inclined to get the shinies. Older players are more inclined to move on regardless of the amount, or type, of content available.

It’s not just about the type of content or the amount of it, though. It’s about how said content doles out rewards. Fractal skins are entirely RNG. There is no other way to acquire them but dumb luck. The same goes for Tequatl’s Horde.

And while there’s the tired argument that RNG lengthens play time, that it lengthens the grind, the truth is that the RNG is why I’m quitting and that a token system would have kept me around.

They could have easily balanced out a token system where it would take months of running FOTM 50 every day to acquire every fractal skin. But instead it’s entirely random. I main an engineer and I’ve gotten two fractal short bows that are of no use to me.

The status quo is so beyond frustrating.

Phineas Poe.3018:

killcannon.2576:

New players aren’t disillusioned or jaded and are more inclined to get the shinies. Older players are more inclined to move on regardless of the amount, or type, of content available.

It’s not just about the type of content or the amount of it, though. It’s about how said content doles out rewards. Fractal skins are entirely RNG. There is no other way to acquire them but dumb luck. The same goes for Tequatl’s Horde.

And while there’s the tired argument that RNG lengthens play time, that it lengthens the grind, the truth is that the RNG is why I’m quitting and that a token system would have kept me around.

That’s the kicker.

The only reason to keep veteran players around is to populate the world and make it seem like a bustling, active game.

With the Megaservers, that is not quite as important any longer.

And, let’s be honest here, you’ll be back. Maybe not next month, or even two, but vets will always come back and check out the new content….because it’s free.

killcannon.2576:

The only reason to keep veteran players around is to populate the world and make it seem like a bustling, active game.

With the Megaservers, that is not quite as important any longer.

And, let’s be honest here, you’ll be back. Maybe not next month, or even two, but vets will always come back and check out the new content….because it’s free.

I don’t think that criticism is fair. The megaservers are actually one of the things that I liked most about the April feature pack. Even if it did ruin server-organized events like the world event train and threw everyone in with everybody, it has made lesser tread ground more populated and has offered players outside of Sanctum of Rall to participate in our Teq kills.

And I am not in any way insinuating that I will not return. I would be more than happy to come back provided these types of overhauls get implemented. But that’s kind of the point: I’m not coming back unless they are.

I think something else needs to be established here: I love horizontal progression and I enjoy having a finish line. I don’t want new tiers beyond ascended added into the game, nor do I necessarily need a new carrot to chase. I would certainly like new dungeons, fractals, and world raids to be added into the game … but who wouldn’t?

The reason why I’ve quit is not because I have nothing to work on. The reason why I’ve quit is because the path to get what I want is abusive with rewards randomly delegated. I cannot stress this point enough: the RNG has to go.

To apply a little more context, going after legendaries would be a lot more enjoyable if the process to obtaining your precursor involved an actual quest line. It can be long. It can be incremental and require crafting. And it can be challenging. But standing at the forge dumping in hundreds of gold is equated to rolling a pair of dice. There’s no personal achievement in that.

I agree with everything Phineas said x 1000000. Unfortunately, GW2 has chosen to go the completely casual route. If you want t play more than 30 min or so a night this game is not for you.

They’ve already said they aren’t making more dungeons and it’s clear by now they also have intention of adding any real endgame content or making any meaningful changes to WvW.

They are going with the living story, and all the casual players will be thrilled with their 2h of single player content every 2 weeks.

Personally I think it blows because imo this is the best mmo out right now. unfortunately we can only replay the same content so many times before it gets old. And when we finally land that fractal skin after 450 runs we’ll be so kittened we won’t even stick around to admire it in another 450 runs of the same dungeons.

Phineas Poe.3018:

the RNG has to go.

Alas! The Age of the MMORNG is hard upon us, and so long as one person is willing to shell out cash for a chance at something fun, there will be someone out there selling chances.

Phineas Poe.3018:

killcannon.2576:

The only reason to keep veteran players around is to populate the world and make it seem like a bustling, active game.

With the Megaservers, that is not quite as important any longer.

And, let’s be honest here, you’ll be back. Maybe not next month, or even two, but vets will always come back and check out the new content….because it’s free.

I don’t think that criticism is fair. The megaservers are actually one of the things that I liked most about the April feature pack. Even if it did ruin server-organized events like the world event train and threw everyone in with everybody, it has made lesser tread ground more populated and has offered players outside of Sanctum of Rall to participate in our Teq kills.

And I am not in any way insinuating that I will not return. I would be more than happy to come back provided these types of overhauls get implemented. But that’s kind of the point: I’m not coming back unless they are.

I think something else needs to be established here: I love horizontal progression and I enjoy having a finish line. I don’t want new tiers beyond ascended added into the game, nor do I necessarily need a new carrot to chase. I would certainly like new dungeons, fractals, and world raids to be added into the game … but who wouldn’t?

The reason why I’ve quit is not because I have nothing to work on. The reason why I’ve quit is because the path to get what I want is abusive with rewards randomly delegated. I cannot stress this point enough: the RNG has to go.

To apply a little more context, going after legendaries would be a lot more enjoyable if the process to obtaining your precursor involved an actual quest line. It can be long. It can be incremental and require crafting. And it can be challenging. But standing at the forge dumping in hundreds of gold is equated to rolling a pair of dice. There’s no personal achievement in that.

I agree with you. There needs to be progression and there needs to be meaningful, long term, small group based content based around skill and relying on your fellow party members that is fun and not zergy.

But…. lowering the common denominator of the player base makes more money and it’s a lot easier.

The only thing that Anet has ever truly listened to is money. Once this current direction runs it course and shows them that it will not improve profits or player retention in it’s western market, the players may see some actual game changing systems put into place that will improve the game in a meaningful way. Of course they will probably come tied to some sort of purchase model, but if you like the game then it’s worth it.

Vote with your wallet and your time.

Thing about the loot.. anet at first made it seem like a great thing that you wouldn’t be competing with other party members over loot that drops from a boss.. no cases of 40 people and only 3 pieces of loot to share. Everyone gets their own loot.

Unfortunately. Most of it is junk. There might be a valuable or desirable piece of loot on that boss. But it has a 1 in 250 chance or so of dropping.

So instead of 40 people trying to figure out who gets one of 3 pieces of loot, 100+ people doing Tequatl might find that 1, maybe 2 people got something that wasn’t junk from Tequatl.

That’s a worse chance at decent loot.

I totally agree with the OP’s post many things you posted are things me and my friends have discussed many times on TS/Vent, and is a good reason why nearly everyone I know has quit this game, I refuse to do FotM now because of the terrible loot system, and its general unrewarding nature, I felt sorry for the people who where forced to do it to make that recent back piece, although funny to see loads of LFG lvl 1 fractals,

However sadly your post will fall on deaf ears, we all know the reason the devs started posting was part of operation “damage limitation” from the recent interview where they basically said screw you dungeon/fractal community, sad by true.

killcannon.2576:

Keeping veteran players is not and never will be a priority in b2p or f2p games..

This is the best quote from the topic, do they really care for the long term vet players, ive stated it before that anyone who plays this game for longer than 1-2hours a day are not the target playerbase, they want causal players who log in take an hour for dailies, maybe do a quick dungeon run then log out, as these players are less likely to complain about loot drops etc, or notice bugged/nerfed events, the Vet players are the bain of the dev team,

Some of our "new " feature updates are just updates that where put into China from launch and they are rolling them out here, I did question do we really need a new levelling system in a game that is 2 years old already, when they could have spent that time making new dungeons/fractals and or actually fixing many of the bugs in game….

I like many others will await this weeks blog posts about what the vet players are supposed to get in terms of updates to keep them interested in the feature pack, but right now everything is either “it worked in china so here you go” or “we only cater for new players so suck it up”

I really do/did enjoy this game but its not living up to its potential not even close.

There are three types of gamers.

1. Casual gamers – they play games to pass the time in a fun way. A lot of this demographic has moved on to mobile gaming because it’s able to take away time in transport and whatnot while computer gaming is somewhat more restrictive in terms of required equipment.

2. Hardcore gamers – there are two variants: those who play a game because they are immersed in the world/community of the game itself, and they live the game as a second life; those who play a game because they want to feel a sense of accomplishment, and since games run on fairly consistent rules, it affords the ability to achieve in a fair environment, while in reality you could throw all your resources into something and never be rewarded when your luck is bad.

3. Professional gamers – they play games to earn money, either through tournaments or through converting ingame resources to real finances.

Professional gamers always go where the money is, and as they have a somewhat higher profile (and occasionally industry sponsorships), games sometimes like to have some of them in play every now and then for marketing exposure. But since their aim is to actually earn money, restrictive costs tends to turn them off from a game. Aside from attempts at ‘e-sports’ (which frankly will likely fail because the complexity of Guild Wars 2 mechanics is way above that of your average esports audience’s ability to grasp without doing prior research), there’s been limited effort in this department.

This thread is started and populated mostly by the achievement-type hardcore gamers. However, traditionally, game companies have relied more on keeping systems generally consistent and fair as the only effort towards this entire community, since the amount of time already invested in the game presents a very high cost to leaving a game. From Marketing’s eyes, it’s not a dollar-efficient effort to retain hardcore gamers.

Casuals seem to be the main target of a lot of these recent updates at the moment. Without time to invest in a game, pay-for-convenience features like gem-gold conversions, buying skins, or gambling RNG are ways to monetize this crowd, but it seems like to avoid turning them off from the rest of the game until they spend more, disproportionate effort has been spent in the initial phases of the game (pre-lvl 80). Once they play enough to become invested as a hardcore player, retention is no longer as much of a concern.

If you want to see things change, the hardcore gamer as a community has to undertake relatively drastic actions, involving cutting the monetization source. It does not necessarily mean you stop playing Guild Wars 2, but it means you stop spending any real world money, if you already do, and limit gold=>gem conversions. Then we engage them in dialogue over certain non-negotiable updates – say, precursor crafting.

Once a promised update has been conceded, spend money or convert gold to gems the moment the patch hits, then if the update frequency stalls, stall the monetization process as well. Once the message is clear that the community will financially support the developers only if they acquiesce to the desires of the community that supports it, it’ll be easier to see updates that you want.

If not prepared to coordinate spending behaviour in response to updates, there will be little or no chance that even developers who are interested in improving things for us will be able to convince the other departments within the company to give them the go-ahead.

I’m serious about the spending phase bit. If you’re expecting them to work for free to create patches for us when only the casuals support them financially, it’s just not going to happen.

This game lacks real end-game content.
The only thing we do have – FOTM 50 – is hugely ignored and not worth doing with the current loot system being as bad as it is.

I won’t bother going through all of it – I already did it on the fractals CDI – but they need to see this fixed if they want players to have something to do.

They need end-game difficulty with end-game rewards in more places.

And these rewards have to stop being RNG-based. I don’t care if it’s 100,1000 or 10.000 tokens – make it something you can WORK towards and keep track of your progress.

I quested for almost 9 months for my Fractal Longbow – that’s how long it took. I did get it – yes – but when I did I realized that it was just luck. That day I had been no particularly closer than I had been in those previous 9 months. That’s just terrible.

The amount of work that FOTM or Teq and Wurm ( like the OP mentioned) take make the rewards they give seem really poor.

Really experienced players find themselves hanging out in the same areas as newer players because there’s nowhere you can go and apply your experience in order to earn more rewards/better rewards/more unique rewards.

Harper.4173:

Really experienced players find themselves hanging out in the same areas as newer players because there’s nowhere you can go and apply your experience in order to earn more rewards/better rewards/more unique rewards.

Oh, how terrible! You have to see n00bs! The smell must be unbearable!

Seriously, this thread can be summed up as “I want preferential treatment for my playstyle, and who do ArenaNet think they are by catering to people with other interests?”

The sad thing is that this elite cadre of “Really Cool Veteran Players” is not united in their opinions on everything. It is just rhetoric; if you say that many people will agree with you (regardless of whether they actually do), you sound more important.

Jornophelanthas.1475:

Harper.4173:

Really experienced players find themselves hanging out in the same areas as newer players because there’s nowhere you can go and apply your experience in order to earn more rewards/better rewards/more unique rewards.

Oh, how terrible! You have to see n00bs! The smell must be unbearable!

Seriously, this thread can be summed up as “I want preferential treatment for my playstyle, and who do ArenaNet think they are by catering to people with other interests?”

The sad thing is that this elite cadre of “Really Cool Veteran Players” is not united in their opinions on everything. It is just rhetoric; if you say that many people will agree with you (regardless of whether they actually do), you sound more important.

Oh look, the typical “I’m gonna degrade your argument instead of actually trying to provide a counter argument” response.

Was wondering when that would show up.

I tend to get snarky when people start looking down on others with different playstyles. I am specifically referring to Harper’s quote, which apparently tries to gather support for a “gated community” where “Really experienced players” (another quote) do not have to encounter “newer players” anymore.

I am pretty sure this is against any game developer’s philosophy.

Jornophelanthas.1475:

I tend to get snarky when people start looking down on others with different playstyles. I am specifically referring to Harper’s quote, which apparently tries to gather support for a “gated community” where “Really experienced players” (another quote) do not have to encounter “newer players” anymore.

I am pretty sure this is against any game developer’s philosophy.

You seem to have missed the point of his/her post entirely then.

Jornophelanthas.1475:

Seriously, this thread can be summed up as “I want preferential treatment for my playstyle, and who do ArenaNet think they are by catering to people with other interests?”

Other interests as in enjoying dumping hundreds of gold into the forge for maybe getting a precursor? Or never getting a single fractal skin that’s actually usable on your main? Not a single person I know has ever gotten the fractal tonic to drop. We seriously question whether or not it’s still in the game. Does that kind of mystery get a rise out of you? Because I’m curious who actually bought the game to experience that kind of abuse, or why we should be satisfied playing content where we’re not exactly sure what the loot table is anymore.

These fixes are not preferential treatment if they benefit everybody. I mean let’s establish something here: would any player oppose these changes? And if so, for what reason? How would these changes negatively impact anyone?

Whilst I agree with the OP on RNG and table loot being re-worked on rewards in fracs & wurm. I disagree with precursor crafting. Increase the chances of getting a precursor – maybe as a reward for high end content like fracs lvl 50. But precursor crafting….will degrade the value of obtaining a legendary even further. The value of getting a legendary is already devalued enough as is it, when you can just buy it out right off the TP. Not to mention it will really undermine the ones that spent ages making one. I know how that would feel, spent ages just to make one and then “hey presto” craft a precursor. That would really kitten me off – all that hard work and then this.

I left for 7 months over the illusive RNG system and crap loot, I’m on that verge again. I feel like my new grind here now is to save up enough ecto to sell stacks so that maybe in two years from now I can finally by the precursor I need to make Incinerator (which has been a two year off and on process already) all because I guess I am just unlucky when it comes to RNG. Somedays I want to call shenanigans, and I know I’m not the only one…..but I know I’m just unlucky.

I have come to the realization my end game is actually trying to obtain better or cooler looking gear through the processes of doing daily events because the living story updates trickle in(and the rewards are meh). This is not a really a positive for this game by any means.

Content should be the main means to obtaining cool stuff and with a better hit rate then what I’m seeing now. TBH the Mystic Toilet if you have lots of money and mats and time seem to be the best way to getting precursors, or you can stand around and beat on critters and badies all day hoping for a drop in the next 10 years (literally).

I also find it funny that the big feature packs always address issues maybe 3 people mentioned ever, yet fails to ever address the hot button issues people care about…It’s like wanting a real motorcycle for Christmas and getting a hot wheels motorcycle you are too old to care about. Like Will Smith said, parents just don’t understand xD

Phineas Poe.3018:

These fixes are not preferential treatment if they benefit everybody. I mean let’s establish something here: would any player oppose these changes? And if so, for what reason? How would these changes negatively impact anyone?

I know many fractal regulars who wouldn’t appreciate making fractal skins more readily available. I’m not talking about the people who do a fractal run every once in a while and complain about bad rng because they don’t get anything out of it. I’m talking about players who do multiple scales daily and have done so for many months – people who have put in an absurd amount of time to get the skins that they have.

Personally it would benefit me greatly to be able to exchange pristines for fractal skins since I’m missing only a few skins and the chance that I get those skins through rng is abysmal. However, I would feel bad for anyone who has dedicated way more time than I have to complete their fractal collection.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Jornophelanthas.1475:

Seriously, this thread can be summed up as “I want preferential treatment for my playstyle, and who do ArenaNet think they are by catering to people with other interests?”

Other interests as in enjoying dumping hundreds of gold into the forge for maybe getting a precursor? Or never getting a single fractal skin that’s actually usable on your main? Not a single person I know has ever gotten the fractal tonic to drop. We seriously question whether or not it’s still in the game. Does that kind of mystery get a rise out of you? Because I’m curious who actually bought the game to experience that kind of abuse, or why we should be satisfied playing content where we’re not exactly sure what the loot table is anymore.

These fixes are not preferential treatment if they benefit everybody. I mean let’s establish something here: would any player oppose these changes? And if so, for what reason? How would these changes negatively impact anyone?

What Phineas is saying is totally true about the Fractals. It’s such fun challenging content and the community has given stellar feedback on how to fix it. To be fair, the Dredge Fractal fix was fantastic, but beyond that with them saying the loot tables are fixed etc. I question the validity of that. There is a group of serious players in my guild that have been running Fractals regularly since they came out. The game play is better now, but the rewards are awful.

I think I figured out part of the disconnect though. RPGs were never built this way. Even going back to tabletop games. It feels like this game doesn’t want to reward the tabletop-type long term gamer. The vet is getting the short end of the stick and that is counter-intuitive to how RPGs and MMOs have been since they started. Even down to the LS, they seem to want players that can play 2-3 hours a week. Spending 2-3 hours a week playing this game(and never having played more than that) seems to be their target audience. I am sure they see the metrics. People that play hours a day don’t have to buy gems with real world money. I am sure the people that spend just a little time in the game spend more money per month(sans the whales of course) than the vets do.

It’s created a class distinction too. ArenaNet employees have referred to Veteran Players and Casual Players and New Players. The marketing team has put us in pie charts and the people that have been hyped about this game while we were still running Frostmaw Speed clears in GW1 are getting the crappy section of the pie chart.

No longer are the Dungeon Masters at ArenaNet designing awesome content for the guys and girls in their 5 year long D&D campaign(The vets). They are having over the dude bros and gurrrrlies for beers and snacks and playing dress up D&D and charging for cosmetics at the end of a short dungeon(the casuals and new players). Every two weeks there is another 1-3 hour experience to be had. I know there are people at ArenaNet that have played the long game. That’s why you started working for a game company in the first place. Now you have abandoned what it means to be RPG makers for a watered down experience and it sucks because you sold all of us on this game years ago and then traded it in for what it is now and it’s not even a shadow of what it was going to be when you first started the journey.

Vanive.3804:

I left for 7 months over the illusive RNG system and crap loot, I’m on that verge again. I feel like my new grind here now is to save up enough ecto to sell stacks so that maybe in two years from now I can finally by the precursor I need to make Incinerator (which has been a two year off and on process already) all because I guess I am just unlucky when it comes to RNG.

Considering the popular weapon precursors have broken the 1k mark, you’re going to need a lot of ecto…

killcannon.2576:

Keeping veteran players is not and never will be a priority in b2p or f2p games. New players are much more likely to invest money in Gems for new character slots, bag space, and convenience items. Vets don’t make the company money.

It’s always about the cash. The rest is smoke, mirrors, and empty words.

Im sure anet knows that vet players are just as impt as their advertisings. Never underestimate word of mouth. If vets are happy they stay in game, they promote it and in return anet will get some new players.

I came close to getting hardcore into this game… but, the RNG pretty much killed that idea for me… for pretty much the reasons that have been pointed out in this thread.
I have done big world bosses and got nothing but junk… but pulled some nice exotic items out of a chest at the end of a jumping puzzle. (not even a difficult one)
So…. why put the effort into the big events when I have just as much chance to get something good anywhere else in the game?

So now I just try to explore, and enjoy the time I can play with friends.

TL:DR: Anet turned me into a casual

(death to the RNG)

Substance E.4852:

Vanive.3804:

I left for 7 months over the illusive RNG system and crap loot, I’m on that verge again. I feel like my new grind here now is to save up enough ecto to sell stacks so that maybe in two years from now I can finally by the precursor I need to make Incinerator (which has been a two year off and on process already) all because I guess I am just unlucky when it comes to RNG.

Considering the popular weapon precursors have broken the 1k mark, you’re going to need a lot of ecto…

That was pretty much what my point was.

Jornophelanthas.1475:

Harper.4173:

Really experienced players find themselves hanging out in the same areas as newer players because there’s nowhere you can go and apply your experience in order to earn more rewards/better rewards/more unique rewards.

Oh, how terrible! You have to see n00bs! The smell must be unbearable!

Seriously, this thread can be summed up as “I want preferential treatment for my playstyle, and who do ArenaNet think they are by catering to people with other interests?”

The sad thing is that this elite cadre of “Really Cool Veteran Players” is not united in their opinions on everything. It is just rhetoric; if you say that many people will agree with you (regardless of whether they actually do), you sound more important.

No friend. You missed my point.

It has nothing to do with “noobs” and has everything to do with the fact that I’ve had no progression in the past year and a half.

Even though my knowledge of the game has improved. Even though I’ve got better gear and my skill level has gone up I’ve still been stuck in the same places/areas since release.

There’s no place you can go to where the game is harder and more rewarding and that you have to work towards getting there ( FOTM is close – but the rewards are terrible and it’s not really that hard).

It’s not about the players around me – it’s about the fact that I’ve gotten better but the game has stayed the same. I’m not saying I want the game to change – I’m saying harder areas should be added so players that want them have something to do.

I do not want the game to change and give me special treatment – I want them to add something that gives me some sort of place to continue growing as a player.

Jornophelanthas.1475:

I tend to get snarky when people start looking down on others with different playstyles. I am specifically referring to Harper’s quote, which apparently tries to gather support for a “gated community” where “Really experienced players” (another quote) do not have to encounter “newer players” anymore.

I am pretty sure this is against any game developer’s philosophy.

The idea was that being in the same areas with new players means I haven’t progressed at all.
There’s no end-game. No place you really have to know what you’re doing in order to succeed.

I’m talking about Liadri-grade difficulty places here. We don’t have that and it’s not helping.

GW1 had this progression.

You went through the game and at the end you had really deadly areas such as the Ring of Fire Island chain ( for exploring) but also UW and FOW which you couldn’t just stroll into on day 1 and succeed.
You needed to have learned a bit about the game and improved to get there and succeed. It felt rewarding and accomplishing to go to these places and do well.

We don’t have that in GW2 sadly.

Iason Evan.3806:

What Phineas is saying is totally true about the Fractals. It’s such fun challenging content and the community has given stellar feedback on how to fix it. To be fair, the Dredge Fractal fix was fantastic, but beyond that with them saying the loot tables are fixed etc. I question the validity of that. There is a group of serious players in my guild that have been running Fractals regularly since they came out. The game play is better now, but the rewards are awful.

I think I figured out part of the disconnect though. RPGs were never built this way. Even going back to tabletop games. It feels like this game doesn’t want to reward the tabletop-type long term gamer. The vet is getting the short end of the stick and that is counter-intuitive to how RPGs and MMOs have been since they started. Even down to the LS, they seem to want players that can play 2-3 hours a week. Spending 2-3 hours a week playing this game(and never having played more than that) seems to be their target audience. I am sure they see the metrics. People that play hours a day don’t have to buy gems with real world money. I am sure the people that spend just a little time in the game spend more money per month(sans the whales of course) than the vets do.

It’s created a class distinction too. ArenaNet employees have referred to Veteran Players and Casual Players and New Players. The marketing team has put us in pie charts and the people that have been hyped about this game while we were still running Frostmaw Speed clears in GW1 are getting the crappy section of the pie chart.

No longer are the Dungeon Masters at ArenaNet designing awesome content for the guys and girls in their 5 year long D&D campaign(The vets). They are having over the dude bros and gurrrrlies for beers and snacks and playing dress up D&D and charging for cosmetics at the end of a short dungeon(the casuals and new players). Every two weeks there is another 1-3 hour experience to be had. I know there are people at ArenaNet that have played the long game. That’s why you started working for a game company in the first place. Now you have abandoned what it means to be RPG makers for a watered down experience and it sucks because you sold all of us on this game years ago and then traded it in for what it is now and it’s not even a shadow of what it was going to be when you first started the journey.

I’m glad to see it – you nailed it.
This is exactly it – I too was immensely hyped about GW2 when it was announced. Got me to push towards my HOM points.
I refreshed the GW2.com page EVERY single day hoping to get more info. I provided feedback when they asked for it.

The first time the game was playable to the public ( Gamescom in Koln in 2010) I drove almost 2000 kms to be there. Just to play 30 minutes of the game. And it was worth it then. Because we were all full of hope.

I also do a lot of FOTM runs – and can attest that the majority of the skins I got were received Pre-Fractured. The loot in FOTM is broken beyond belief and they don’t seem to be trying to give us a fix despite the very good options offered in the FOTM CDI a while back.

Yes Dredge was fixed. Yes the gameplay is better but at the end of a fun run the incredibly underwhelming rewards leave a very bitter taste.