Guild Wars 2

Roles aren’t defined by your class. A bunker ele is the second strongest bunker class after guardian, certainly more so than a warrior (an elixir engi is a stronger bunker than a warrior too come to think of it), yet a warrior can be one of the strongest healers as well with their shouts. A guardian has some of the highest dps while maintaining strong support should s/he choose to do so.

All classes can perform all roles. Stop trying to bring back that antiquated system to a new and refreshing game

Reverence.6915:

Roles aren’t defined by your class. A bunker ele is the second strongest bunker class after guardian, certainly more so than a warrior, yet a warrior can be one of the strongest healers as well with their shouts. A guardian has some of the highest dps while maintaining strong support should s/he choose to do so.

All classes can perform all roles. Stop trying to bring back that antiquated system to a new and refreshing game

You call the current dungeon combat system refreshing? Honestly, I think a lot of people take some of the new mechanics the game brought along for granted; that being said, you can’t really contest the fact that it’s all DPS based. The knights in the last living story? All dps. No need for heals, just dodging. Horrible mechanics in that, and boring as hell. I find certain aspects of the game refreshing, but 90% of combat is not part of it.

Oh, and try healing allies on a necro or a thief… that second to last sentence is just false.

The current dungeon system is the result of players skipping content and purposely making it easier for themselves. Early dungeon runners had all sorts of builds as they figured out the paths. Mostly support builds.

The sad thing is Arenanet has everything in the game to do something better than the holy trinity, yet they have probably the worst and most one-dimensional system one could possibly design. I would be very disappointed if they brought the trinity in because they could go for something far more dynamic than that for PvE.

If this game had the trinity, it would be like, okay I always have 1 tank 1 healer and 3 DPS in my 5-man group because that’s what it takes, and all I have to figure is what each of these roles has to do for a boss. This would be unquestionably better than what we have, but it feels static because it’s always the same group roles. (As it does in MMOs with the trinity.)

Now, in Guild Wars 2, consider that everyone is an hybrid, that we can change role with just a weapon swap, and that we’ll soon be able to reset our traits for free. It means that if Arenanet wanted, they could create dungeons encounters that are a lot more dynamic. Instead of always having the same roles, they could create bosses where the players are constantly changing roles and strategy. Say you could have a first boss where support is important, so a few people would get their support skills out while the others keep damaging. Then the second boss could be an endurance fight where you need to get your defense skills up. Then the third boss hits like a truck but is easy to kite so range is nice, but he also uses frost so someone has to have condition cleanses as well. Fourth boss is a DPS race so everyone goes damage. And so on.

Dynamic role-switching is something that classic MMOs like WoW could never do because of how some classes are 1-dimentional, and of how hybrids are forced into one role because in a 40-man raid you have many one of every role anyway. But Guild Wars 2 could do that right now.

eye floater.7140:

Anet started the game hoping they could erase the need (and want) for the holy trinity, but I think they’re realizing that it doesn’t really work.
Considering the lack of sustained and overall effectiveness of healing/toughness/healingpower in the game, in PVE combat no one uses anything but zerk gear. Why would they? As another player mentioned in another thread, slower enemy death = more opportunity for said mob or boss to 1-shot you. When you’re playing in that scenario where any boss ability can 1—2 shot you no matter your gear, why would you run anything but zerk? Vit, toughness, and healing power are so under-powered and ineffective that no one will bother with them in PVE. I’m assuming Anet did this so no roles would develop, i.e healer or tank. Dungeons have been relatively the same since launch: Everyone runs zerg gear, skipping the mobs you don’t need to kill, dodging the massive attacks from bosses, and finishing the dungeon with no need for defense of any sort. Honestly, the only defensive ability you actually need is dodge.
Anet has started to realize that there’s not enough build diversity, so they nerfed crit damage a bit and are starting to buff survival and healing skills for almost every class(including the extra healing skill given to everyone some time ago). I just don’t see this whole lack of the trinity idea ever really working that well. The game has players, sure, but I bet there would be quite a bit more if this current system wasn’t in place. I feel like eventually, it’s gonna just come down to that.
Maybe originally they just wanted to scrap it to be new and different, and probably try and bring in more casual players with the lack of hardcore content as well.
Honestly, I think a LOT of players would be happy if the trinity got reinstated somehow, or slowly implemented. I do think though, that WVW and PVP would not benefit from that change. I think they’re fine how they are. Anyway, the trinity only really works for PVE. I doubt Anet will ever admit their shortcomings though, I don’t think I’ve seen any developer ever admit they were wrong with something major like that.

EDIT: I know lots of people would hate it if the trinity slowly gripped the game. I know lots would love it as well, but I just think Anet needs to do SOMETHING in order to fix certain gameplay aspects. Personally, I would love the trinity to happen, but would it be good for the game and the majority of the players? That, I don’t know. I hope it would be.

No..Just No. The game was released with the philosophy of freeing us from pre-defined classes. While I can see the game needs More Build diversity, and for this it needs to do what it can so that Control, and Support are viable Playstyles. Pull away from the zerker and zerg…damage above all dynamic. I do not see this as " The Holy Trinity" returning.

This game doesn’t need a Holy Trinity. To the OP plenty of games have The Holy Trinity. World of Warcraft does it quite well. All I can say is, if for an MMO to be enjoyable for you, it must have a holy trinity, you shouldn’t have bought this game, since NOT having one, was aHuge selling point, and advertised heavilly when it was released.

You bought the wrong game. Cheer up.. There are many games that still incorporate The Holy Trinity. Why not Just play one of those, Instead of try to change this into what it isn’t?

Nerelith.7360:

eye floater.7140:

Anet started the game hoping they could erase the need (and want) for the holy trinity, but I think they’re realizing that it doesn’t really work.
Considering the lack of sustained and overall effectiveness of healing/toughness/healingpower in the game, in PVE combat no one uses anything but zerk gear. Why would they? As another player mentioned in another thread, slower enemy death = more opportunity for said mob or boss to 1-shot you. When you’re playing in that scenario where any boss ability can 1—2 shot you no matter your gear, why would you run anything but zerk? Vit, toughness, and healing power are so under-powered and ineffective that no one will bother with them in PVE. I’m assuming Anet did this so no roles would develop, i.e healer or tank. Dungeons have been relatively the same since launch: Everyone runs zerg gear, skipping the mobs you don’t need to kill, dodging the massive attacks from bosses, and finishing the dungeon with no need for defense of any sort. Honestly, the only defensive ability you actually need is dodge.
Anet has started to realize that there’s not enough build diversity, so they nerfed crit damage a bit and are starting to buff survival and healing skills for almost every class(including the extra healing skill given to everyone some time ago). I just don’t see this whole lack of the trinity idea ever really working that well. The game has players, sure, but I bet there would be quite a bit more if this current system wasn’t in place. I feel like eventually, it’s gonna just come down to that.
Maybe originally they just wanted to scrap it to be new and different, and probably try and bring in more casual players with the lack of hardcore content as well.
Honestly, I think a LOT of players would be happy if the trinity got reinstated somehow, or slowly implemented. I do think though, that WVW and PVP would not benefit from that change. I think they’re fine how they are. Anyway, the trinity only really works for PVE. I doubt Anet will ever admit their shortcomings though, I don’t think I’ve seen any developer ever admit they were wrong with something major like that.

EDIT: I know lots of people would hate it if the trinity slowly gripped the game. I know lots would love it as well, but I just think Anet needs to do SOMETHING in order to fix certain gameplay aspects. Personally, I would love the trinity to happen, but would it be good for the game and the majority of the players? That, I don’t know. I hope it would be.

No..Just No. The game was released with the philosophy of freeing us from pre-defined classes. While I can see the game needs More Build diversity, and for this it needs to do what it can so that Control, and Support are viable Playstyles. Pull away from the zerker and zerg…damage above all dynamic. I do not see this as " The Holy Trinity" returning.

This game doesn’t need a Holy Trinity. To the OP plenty of games have The Holy Trinity. World of Warcraft does it quite well. All I can say is, if for an MMO to be enjoyable for you, it must have a holy trinity, you shouldn’t have bought this game, since NOT having one, was aHuge selling point, and advertised heavilly when it was released.

You bought the wrong game. Cheer up.. There are many games that still incorporate The Holy Trinity. Why not Just play one of those, Instead of try to change this into what it isn’t?

As I stated in a rebuttal to an earlier comment, I don’t dislike the game. I love a lot about it, actually, but I think that the combat needs to be fixed. That’s all. Originally I thought I wanted the trinity to reappear, but I don’t actually think that entirely now. If the game was made with the trinity in place, then kitten yes! But at this point, I don’t think it would work. All I’d like now is for Anet to start getting their kitten together and fix the major problems; stop working on the LS stuff, and actually add area, skills, and improve combat for all the classes. More interesting battles, more rewarding bosses, and so on. I bought the right game, it’s just not ready for beta yet.

Nick.6972:

Trinity was removed and wasn’t replaced.

it wasn’t really removed, they just removed two thirds of the trinity roles to be available to players.

they left the DPS role to played by the players.
walls and pillars play the tank role.
dodges, blocks and going out of combat are doing healers role.
thats why the game is boring.
they TOLD, they removed the trinity. the didn’t. so playerbase had to work around it.

blakdoxa.7520:

Great. So just how much did you invest into healing power? How much damage did you have to give up in order to just sit in water element for the duration of battles?

I can already tell X/X/X/10/30 from your build.

Isn’t that the idea of the trinity? You specialise in one of the roles, here healing. Healers don’t do damage, they push red bars up.

In all my time playing this game, I never once thought to myself “We need a tank/healer in our party.” If I take too much damage or get killed, it’s my own fault.

Here is how I play:

• It is my fault if I miss a dodge.
• It is my fault if I don’t pay attention to attack animations.
• It is my fault if I use my self-healing skill at a bad time.
• It is my fauIt if I don’t equip various skills to increase my overall effectiveness.
• It is my fault that I can’t kill my foe fast enough to prevent too much damage to myself.

It is not the fault of another player. It is not because we don’t have a dedicated healing class. It is not because I have some ‘tank’ drawing the enemy’s attention.

If you can kill it fast enough, not bite more than you can chew, dodge properly, heal yourself at the right time, and use the right skills as the situations call for it, then you don’t need a healer or a tank. If you can’t then you need a healer or a tank to do your dirty work for you.

The best defense is an even better offense. This has yet to be proven false. Attack to defend.

Lalangamena.3694:

Nick.6972:

Trinity was removed and wasn’t replaced.

it wasn’t really removed, they just removed two thirds of the trinity roles to be available to players.

they left the DPS role to played by the players.
walls and pillars play the tank role.
dodges, blocks and going out of combat are doing healers role.
thats why the game is boring.
they TOLD, they removed the trinity. the didn’t. so playerbase had to work around it.

Both wrong.

Tanking is now Control, and this comes in two forms; damage control (Weakness, Hard CC, body blocking projectiles) and movement control (Cripple, Immobilize, Chill, Hard CC).
DPS, no matter what game with combat in, will always be DPS.
Healing is now Support, whether that be helping prevent your allies from dying (Aegis, Protection, Regen, Reviving, Condition Removal) or helping them do their job (Might, Fury, Swiftness).

The main difference between this system and the Trinity is that the Trinity is made up of dedicated roles, wheras in GW2, while you can build your character to specialise, you aren’t simply in one role.

When me an my friends first did dungeons at level appropriate (and this was before AC got nerfed, right at the beginning), I had a hybrid Damage/Control Warrior. I’d use a Greatsword most of the time, and then bring out a Hammer if things were getting a bit dicey. I had 10 points in Tactics for Leg Specialist, since GS and Hammer both have cripples. That’s how I’d initiate; immobilizing packs so some of the ranged could get a few shots off, then switch to GS. If someone went down, I’d switch to hammer, knock them away and immobilise them, giving others time to get the downed person back up..

However, the current issue with the system is the fact that the content doesn’t really utilise the Control and Support aspects, not that they removed tanking and healing as you know it.

• There is a trinity in the game from the beginning of its development (cc, damage and support).

• Fortunately it is not “Holy”. Play the way you want (with some restrictions, obviously, is a game with rules).

• Unfortunately, for me, does not work well. One part is the fault of the people: “go full berserker or nothing”, and another part of the problem is divided between the design of professions and the design of many fights in the game.

eye floater.7140:

Anet has started to realize that there’s not enough build diversity, so they nerfed crit damage a bit and are starting to buff survival and healing skills for almost every class(including the extra healing skill given to everyone some time ago).

Unless they implement an aggro pulling skill or definite aggro mechanics and a profession that can actually spend all of their time healing, you’re not looking at a trinity.

The game has players, sure, but I bet there would be quite a bit more if this current system wasn’t in place. I feel like eventually, it’s gonna just come down to that.

As long as you’re be willing to part with your wager.

Maybe originally they just wanted to scrap it to be new and different, and probably try and bring in more casual players with the lack of hardcore content as well.
Honestly, I think a LOT of players would be happy if the trinity got reinstated somehow, or slowly implemented. I do think though, that WVW and PVP would not benefit from that change. I think they’re fine how they are. Anyway, the trinity only really works for PVE. I doubt Anet will ever admit their shortcomings though, I don’t think I’ve seen any developer ever admit they were wrong with something major like that.

I know that I personally would quit the game the day they made a trinity. And considering how much hate there is towards gear checking already, I believe the amount of people who would do the same is quite significant.

Also, a lot of people would quit simply because their favorite professions would be changed into a role that they do not like. For example, I play a Warrior but I dislike playing a tank role, which would definitely be what a Warrior would end up as. Friend of mine plays Guardian, but if they were turned into a tank/heal hybrid, I bet they would change to something else.

EDIT: I know lots of people would hate it if the trinity slowly gripped the game. I know lots would love it as well, but I just think Anet needs to do SOMETHING in order to fix certain gameplay aspects. Personally, I would love the trinity to happen, but would it be good for the game and the majority of the players? That, I don’t know. I hope it would be.

Spoiler: Trinity is not necessary to fix the issues with PvE. A much bigger issue in PvE is that every major boss comes with Defiant, tons of HP and massive direct damage. This makes a lot of the cool mechanics, such as CC and condi removal, nearly useless in PvE.

Re-think Defiant and give more bosses condi attacks that can be removed/converted and you’ll see a lot more variance.

Of course, this still wouldn’t make condi builds any better in PvE, but there are tons of ways to solve that as well.

I wouldn’t like to see a trinity in this game, yet I wouldn’t be mad if there were dedicated healers. Many people liked to play monks in GW1, so maybe many people would like to have the possibility to come back as a monk.

However, what I don’t want is the need for a healer. Guardians are already great support and the self-healing skill (I’m using a singular since barely more than one per profession is useful) does a good job.

A healer isn’t a must but rather a plus.

What concerned me was the coming ele traits.

“Here, have cool combat stuff for ele-dagger! Oh, you use a staff….well…have heals that only work on others as that’s what mindless group healbots need”.

chronometria.3708:

What concerned me was the coming ele traits.

“Here, have cool combat stuff for ele-dagger! Oh, you use a staff….well…have heals that only work on others as that’s what mindless group healbots need”.

So use daggers… you can’t really expect them to cater to every possible build choice with every weapon. It’s like complaining that Thief dagger mainhand is not a good support weapon…

Best case scenario, healing effectiveness is increased 47% on the elementalist. It’d be 22% on all other classes. Healing isn’t allowed frequently enough and in enough magnitude to allow for a healer role to exist. As much as people will try to play that role, it’ll be something that brings down the overall potential of a party.

These number changes don’t change that healing isn’t a viable role.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Lalangamena.3694:

Nick.6972:

Trinity was removed and wasn’t replaced.

it wasn’t really removed, they just removed two thirds of the trinity roles to be available to players.

they left the DPS role to played by the players.
walls and pillars play the tank role.
dodges, blocks and going out of combat are doing healers role.
thats why the game is boring.
they TOLD, they removed the trinity. the didn’t. so playerbase had to work around it.

Both wrong.

Tanking is now Control, and this comes in two forms; damage control (Weakness, Hard CC, body blocking projectiles) and movement control (Cripple, Immobilize, Chill, Hard CC).
DPS, no matter what game with combat in, will always be DPS.
Healing is now Support, whether that be helping prevent your allies from dying (Aegis, Protection, Regen, Reviving, Condition Removal) or helping them do their job (Might, Fury, Swiftness).

I think the problem of control is twofold.

One, most of the control effects are tuned for SPVP rather than PVE. End result is that you have to stack the hell out of them to gain the CC that most games grant you with one or two skills. Just observe the PVP panic once ANet allowed immobilize to stack in duration, and they found engineers to be a stacking machine via net turret and rifle.

Two, how easily a accidental control can refresh a whole defiant stack. This because various skills have a almost cosmetic control effect added on top of its damage.

Also, body blocking may have been a thing if one could actually obstruct the movement of mobs. But i have seen time and again mobs run right through zergs because for some reason their aggro has flagged some straggler with a ranged weapon as THE target to attack. Only to have the very same mob take one or two swings at their target before doing a 180 and go right back into the zerg.

And the spiky nature of mob DPS makes body blocking not really worth it. Either the target can take the hit no problem, or anyone taking the hit ends up downed. Meaning that body blocking will result in someone having to be rescued from down state no matter what.

Support on the other hand suffers from blandness. The protection from a support guardian and a zerker guardian only differs in how long it lasts. Meaning is that support is not something you can really build for.

And that makes me think that a serious issue here is that the build choices, at least in PVE, is only a sliding scale between bunker and (glass?) cannon. There are no other dimensions to move in, as the CC durations are so short that going 100%+ onto duration barely makes the numbers move. And boon duration is even worse (mixing 3 sets of 2 runes to get 45% longer boons?!).

End result is a sliding scale between kitten (bunker) and uber (DPS), with control and support as confetti.

In summary: Full berserker was nerfed thus prolonging fights causing the blobians to have to dodge a couple of additional attacks, this causes them to consider the system a ‘failure’ as they are not using any other gear, which they may now have to consider doing.

eye floater.7140:

Anet started the game hoping they could erase the need (and want) for the holy trinity, but I think they’re realizing that it doesn’t really work.
Considering the lack of sustained and overall effectiveness of healing/toughness/healingpower in the game, in PVE combat no one uses anything but zerk gear. Why would they? As another player mentioned in another thread, slower enemy death = more opportunity for said mob or boss to 1-shot you. When you’re playing in that scenario where any boss ability can 1—2 shot you no matter your gear, why would you run anything but zerk? Vit, toughness, and healing power are so under-powered and ineffective that no one will bother with them in PVE. I’m assuming Anet did this so no roles would develop, i.e healer or tank. Dungeons have been relatively the same since launch: Everyone runs zerg gear, skipping the mobs you don’t need to kill, dodging the massive attacks from bosses, and finishing the dungeon with no need for defense of any sort. Honestly, the only defensive ability you actually need is dodge.
Anet has started to realize that there’s not enough build diversity, so they nerfed crit damage a bit and are starting to buff survival and healing skills for almost every class(including the extra healing skill given to everyone some time ago). I just don’t see this whole lack of the trinity idea ever really working that well. The game has players, sure, but I bet there would be quite a bit more if this current system wasn’t in place. I feel like eventually, it’s gonna just come down to that.
Maybe originally they just wanted to scrap it to be new and different, and probably try and bring in more casual players with the lack of hardcore content as well.
Honestly, I think a LOT of players would be happy if the trinity got reinstated somehow, or slowly implemented. I do think though, that WVW and PVP would not benefit from that change. I think they’re fine how they are. Anyway, the trinity only really works for PVE. I doubt Anet will ever admit their shortcomings though, I don’t think I’ve seen any developer ever admit they were wrong with something major like that.

EDIT: I know lots of people would hate it if the trinity slowly gripped the game. I know lots would love it as well, but I just think Anet needs to do SOMETHING in order to fix certain gameplay aspects. Personally, I would love the trinity to happen, but would it be good for the game and the majority of the players? That, I don’t know. I hope it would be.

Yes they can they can fix the broken stats that you mentioned. I do not want trinity! I do not want more reason to play with other people. I like to play by myself. I don’t want to be forced to need people to do content. I think this is one of their biggest problems. Healing is a joke and generally is very ineffective. Toughness seems to only work with heavy armor classes. I could care less if I heal other. I care that healing myself works. They want people to play together and work together, self-servingly of course, but they have a economic policy that completely contradicts it. Selfish people make for bad playmates but they can do well on gouging you. I will play with people if I feel like it but as of now I am forced to and so I find myself playing GW2 less and less. Getting rid of the trinity was gonna make solo-ability feasible but they are destroying this with broken stats, group content, and a broken scaling system. Anet needs to just fix the game and base all of it on a mutually conducive philosophy. Trinity is NOT needed!

digiowl.9620:

I think the problem of control is twofold.

1. Most of the control effects are tuned for SPVP rather than PVE. End result is that you have to stack the hell out of them to gain the CC that most games grant you with one or two skills. Just observe the PVP panic once ANet allowed immobilize to stack in duration, and they found engineers to be a stacking machine via net turret and rifle.

2. How easily a accidental control can refresh a whole defiant stack. This because various skills have a almost cosmetic control effect added on top of its damage.

3. Also, body blocking may have been a thing if one could actually obstruct the movement of mobs. But i have seen time and again mobs run right through zergs because for some reason their aggro has flagged some straggler with a ranged weapon as THE target to attack. Only to have the very same mob take one or two swings at their target before doing a 180 and go right back into the zerg.

And the spiky nature of mob DPS makes body blocking not really worth it. Either the target can take the hit no problem, or anyone taking the hit ends up downed. Meaning that body blocking will result in someone having to be rescued from down state no matter what.

4. Support on the other hand suffers from blandness. The protection from a support guardian and a zerker guardian only differs in how long it lasts. Meaning is that support is not something you can really build for.

1. I’d say the reason for this is because, even in PvE, combat is ‘faster paced’, if you will, than a traditional MMO. In the ideal encounter, you’re not simply being aware of your role, but your team-mates as well. Long CC durations would slow this pace down, coupled with Defiant being removed, would mean we’d simply move from a zerk meta to a stunlock-zerk meta.

Ideally, CC would be a tool to:

• Help team-mates that are struggling
• Interrupt big attacks.

IMO, shorter durations with longer cooldowns are better for this than stupidly long durations. At least by default.

Maybe make it so that if the use of the skill meets a condition, then the CC duration is increased? For example, if the foe is Weakened, then Backbreaker (Warrior Hammer 5) knocks the target down for 4 seconds, as opposed to 2, or . Bear in mind, this is an example, not an actual suggestion for the skill

This rewards the player with longer CC for appropriate use of the skill, rather than simply spamming the skill.

2. Unfortunately, yes.

I’d say a solution to this would be rework Defiant so that

• it decays at a set rate
• Defiant isn’t triggered if you interrupt an attack.

Maybe have modifiable skills as well? For example, Wild Blow on Backbreaker would increase the damage, but it’d lose the CC effect, while Unstoppable Force reduces the damage but increases the duration of the CC. This way, players have more freedom as to what weapons they want to use, while not having to worry about triggering Defiant for the CCer.

Of course, this doesn’t have to be limited to CC skills (for example, maybe there’d be a modifier that increases the range of an AoE, but reduces damage / duration), it’d also open up more customization.

3. In terms of body-blocking, I meant getting in the way of projectiles sort of thing (which is currently in the game).

On the subject of mob DPS however, yeah, this should be altered: smaller hits more frequently, more variety, and give AI the same tools as players including traits, runes, sigils, weapon swapping ect.

4. I’d say the reasons for low durations, both on CC and Support, is that ANet didn’t want people to build purely for a specific ‘role’, but rather build to go with the flow of the fight (i.e Hybrid).

I used to run a Greatsword / Hammer Warrior on out first dungeon runs (way back when the game was new and there wasn’t a zerk meta). I sacrificed some of my damage for Control in the form of Hammer and Leg Specialist. I’d Immobilise groups of trash for my team to burst down without them getting close, and when it come to boss fights, I’d use GS. If someone went down / was in a bit of trouble, I’d break out the Hammer, knock the boss away and Immobilise them.

On the other hand, my mate built his Warrior focusing on Support (bear in mind support doesn’t only mean protecting others, but also helping them do what they do best). He built Banners / Shouts (depending on the situation), Longbow and Sword and Warhorn.

Given the level we were, I feel that if we went in simply trying to smash things in the face, we’d have had more problems.

To finish off, I’d say while the combat system has flaws (Defiant, Combo System), I’d say it’s encounter design either having a lack of mechanics, or not enforcing them mechanics enough so that players can simply brute-force them, that’s the cause of lack of build diversity.

Jack of all trades, master of none? Except that straight up distilled DPS trumps all…

digiowl.9620:

Jack of all trades, master of none? Except that straight up distilled DPS trumps all…

As long as encounter design doesn’t require people to use control and support elements, dps will always trump all.

However, if you had an encounter that, say, required you to immobilise an enemy, you sacrifising a bit of damage to contribute to that mechanic will be just as helpful as simply damaging the enemy.