Guild Wars 2

Crovax.7854:

They said that dead player stop to count after a certain amount of time. Nobody knows how long that is. One bossphase is 4 minutes, breach lasts 5 minutes. If the server checks every 2 minutes for example, that’s half of the time we have for the boss and not nearly enough.

While we are fighting the “issue” of scaling by dead players, maybe we should also do something for those using Sentinel or any kind of Defensive gear. Maybe also for those using condition based builds/gear.

One person using not-optimized for damage gear will make the event take way longer than a full DPS character. How about these guys? Is it the next logical step after dead players?

maddoctor.2738:

Crovax.7854:

They said that dead player stop to count after a certain amount of time. Nobody knows how long that is. One bossphase is 4 minutes, breach lasts 5 minutes. If the server checks every 2 minutes for example, that’s half of the time we have for the boss and not nearly enough.

While we are fighting the “issue” of scaling by dead players, maybe we should also do something for those using Sentinel or any kind of Defensive gear. Maybe also for those using condition based builds/gear.

One person using not-optimized for damage gear will make the event take way longer than a full DPS character. How about these guys? Is it the next logical step after dead players?

You say that but I often wonder if Anet thought about it on health scaling. Sometimes some of these mordreth dont even blink when a whole group unloads on even a normal foe. Let alone the vet and champs that spawn at the amunition spots. Do they just expect we all have 100% damage gear perhaps….

I have participated in dozens of boss fights and dead people not porting were always a big issue. And lots of times it was not because of up- or downscaling.
There are other way more simple things lots of people forget.

Some people seem to feel the need to pick everyone up. Even in big events. So not only is there one player lying around dead doing nothing, there’s also a living! player (and so IS upscaling the event) not doing any damage. Since resurrecting another player solo while under attack takes very long, some of these players go down themselves and by that pulling others towards them to help. So even more people are busy resurrecting and not fighting. During Vine fight some may miss the window to step to safety and so die too. And there goes the damage….

Another point is, there are 3 players dead, lying around at practically the same spot. Now someone goes in downstate there. People try to pick up the one in downstate but crap… resurrecting one of the dead. So they cancel and try again. And again they are missing. Now, because of conditions the downstate player dies. Too bad.. he could have made it if it was not for the dead players lying around!

This is not a fantasy of mine, I have seen this happening during vine fight in lane 2. Some missed the window and got stunned and died. People ran to rezz and got killed too. Someone went to down state, so someone came, set a reflect skill and started to help downstate player. About 10-15 secs later the boss went to center and that player missed the triangle. And so both died. In 10-15 secs someone in down state should be rezzed. So there must have been another reason. Maybe all the dead people lying around.

In Tequatl fights (even mostly in public ones) people got used to port and run and for some reason in 95% of all runs (probably 99.9% in organized ones), people succeed. Seems as if there is some connection, doesn’kitten

So imho even a cleric or a full tank player CAN do a good job (by setting walls, reflect etc.) and in the meanwhile heal and pick up people in down state, but ONLY if people make it easy for others.
I am almost 100% sure that most of the players lying around are either too cheap to pay 1.5silver for the port or just way too lazy to run from waypoint. So they prefer to fail before even considering to run. Because they get their loot anyways.

So maybe ANet should start their punishment there. If not getting rezzed for 15+ (or 30+) seconds (there could be a timer) and then not using wp makes you lose your guarantee for loot. So no chest for lazy people.

And if you think this is unfair, why should it be? If your colleague goes to work and picks his nose for 8 hours instead of working, do you really think he deserves the same money as you?
So while others are busy fighting the boss down and doing their jobs, it’s the job of the dead players to run and get ready to defend again, building up defense (like catapults etc.) or even helping other lanes if they are in trouble. Lying around dead helps no one.

If all people would start realizing that in GW2 we all play TOGETHER and we all want to succeed, they might get over their selfishness and act as a team, not as a single player. Too bad there are so many people only caring about their own good and their own loot.
So if you think “kitten , the event failed, I am glad, I did not port, otherwise it would have cost time and money”, congrats you’re officially a bad player!

tl;dr
Lying around dead also prevents people from helping others in down state or makes them forget boss mechanics for a few seconds and gets them killed to. So it’s in everyone’s interest that dead people port, no matter if upscaling or not.

Schumi.4285:

tl;dr
Lying around dead also prevents people from helping others in down state or makes them forget boss mechanics for a few seconds and gets them killed to. So it’s in everyone’s interest that dead people port, no matter if upscaling or not.

Or you know… disable ressing dead people while IN COMBAT and during a boss fight. Solves everything

maddoctor.2738:

Schumi.4285:

tl;dr
Lying around dead also prevents people from helping others in down state or makes them forget boss mechanics for a few seconds and gets them killed to. So it’s in everyone’s interest that dead people port, no matter if upscaling or not.

Or you know… disable ressing dead people while IN COMBAT and during a boss fight. Solves everything

Your first reply to my post was complete bogus but that’s actually a pretty good solution.
edit: so since player’s aren’t able to be ressed, they might as well implement a forced WP after 10-30 seconds.

maddoctor.2738:

Or you know… disable ressing dead people while IN COMBAT and during a boss fight. Solves everything

Yep that would do the trick too

But some part of me would still prefer some sort of punishment for lazy non-porters

Crovax.7854:

so since player’s aren’t able to be ressed, they might as well implement a forced WP after 10-30 seconds.

Will they have to pay for port?

This is a ridiculous idea.

At most put a timer on them that will auto-resurrect them at a waypoint after a minute if they aren’t actively being rezzed.

As for AFKs in SW, a shorter kick timer like WvW implemented would help that. Even if it only booted the person out to Brisbane Wildlands.

Traveller.7496:

You don’t have to be near the boss to get the reward, even if you WP back and are on your way back when it ends, you get the credit if you did enough before you died. So don’t stay just because you want to get the reward.

It does suck that the WP is so far in this case but I personally feel like a mooch if I just lie there on my lazy kitten waiting for others to drop the fight and get me up (because I was stupid and died), ergo, I run back every time I die, unless there’s a huge zerg that can rez a fully-dead person in seconds. Which is not the case in SW.

Although I sure would like some confirmation from ANet how scaling & being dead actually works. What’s the timer on the downscale/upscale? Can we stop shaming deads who refuse to WP or keep pressuring them?

It takes longer to run back than it takes to get ressed, even in combat. That’s why I generally won’t WP back.

It’s a complete insult that they added the skritt tunnels to alleviate the travel problems in Silverwastes, but locked the skritt tunnels behind an event that takes longer than the run back it’s supposed to save time on.

Basically the Dev who thought that up is a grade A rear orifice.

LothiaVela.6789:

kylwilson.9137:

No, it is not as complex as you suggest. With the amount of people in each lane by the time of an encounter, it takes all of a second to resurrect a downed player if more than one person is nearby, and oh lookie here; fancy each encounter encouraging groups of players to stick close together via the mechanics built into said encounters.

Cut off the source of your issues and they cease to exist. Be proactive rather than watch someone bleed out on the floor.

Think, then post, or even -attempt- to point out why a ‘dps race’ like this is so complex, since there’s is absolutely nothing complex about a dps race. Use the god kitten built in game mechanics to help each other through an encounter.

100% agree with suggestions on auto-release within a minute.

have you ever try to rez dead people in poison aoe on the second boss ? i try sometime and die realy fast. So yes it is complex depending of the boss and the mechanic of him. If you dont kill pustule then they explose in large poison aoe and kill poeple but you need people to kill pustule and die because of rez dead player lead to more dead player and less pustule killed …

That we said from the begin is that depending of the event, boss mechanic and other situation rez is not even possible

Have you tried to rez someone in the Beekeeper? A guildie died today and i was rezzing him alone (yay for the zerg ignoring that). When I had him at 70% the troll did run to the wall and I went to hide behind the honeycomb (because otherwise i would die). Then the laser hits the room, i’m alive and i go back to rez my friend. He’s now at 5% health and not 70%.

Took me a few seconds to realize that. What just happened? The laser actually makes totally dead players (not downed) lose rezzing progression, so even Anet is discouraging rezzing in that fight…

Going back to the topic, this was an issue in the marionette and it’s an issue here again because it runs on a timer. If Anet removes the freaking timer from the fight and just make the boss fight a Kill or get Killed fight, then it would be different. Of course it would have to be adjusted so the enemy can kill 30 players, not only 7-8 like they would now (poison). In the marionette the fights were that way. It was either the players killed their champ or the champ killed them, it wasn’t uncommon to see a totally wiped room.
I wouldn’t see an issue with the timer removed since it’s a closed room. As soon as every player died the event would continue, or as soon as the boss dies.

I think the opponents to this idea have stated a lot of good reasons to oppose it, and I sign on with those good reasons. The idea that you can just “not die” in order to avoid the penalty is absurd.

An empiric example: In my last Vinewrath fight I was on north lane. I’ve got all my boxes and achieves in that fight and am tired of loot, so I’m doing the fight for fun and I go to whatever lane calls for extra people at the start. I noted that our carrier was in trouble down by the ammo dump and hopped down to help out. A swarm of Mordrem roflstomped me just as our lane opened to the champ. I was well down slope from everyone else. Had a couple of very nice people not run down to rez me I’d never have made it to the fight from the nearest WP in time to help out; being forced to that WP would have been bitter indeed.

Instead they got me up and we all charged up the lane and I added my dps and rezzing of downed people to help take the champ out and win the event for everyone in all lanes.

That fight is not designed to let people run back in time to participate. Kicking people when they’re down will not make them inclined to help afterwards, and you’ll get a nice empty fight with no one dying because no one started fighting in the first place. Enjoy your Vinewrath fight with a handful of friends, please do.

Note: I almost never fully die at Vinewrath. I think that may have been the first time, in fact. When I see someone down or dead, I take a moment to help them if it won’t just also kill me.

Donari.5237:

I think the opponents to this idea have stated a lot of good reasons to oppose it, and I sign on with those good reasons. The idea that you can just “not die” in order to avoid the penalty is absurd.

An empiric example: In my last Vinewrath fight I was on north lane. I’ve got all my boxes and achieves in that fight and am tired of loot, so I’m doing the fight for fun and I go to whatever lane calls for extra people at the start. I noted that our carrier was in trouble down by the ammo dump and hopped down to help out. A swarm of Mordrem roflstomped me just as our lane opened to the champ. I was well down slope from everyone else. Had a couple of very nice people not run down to rez me I’d never have made it to the fight from the nearest WP in time to help out; being forced to that WP would have been bitter indeed.

Instead they got me up and we all charged up the lane and I added my dps and rezzing of downed people to help take the champ out and win the event for everyone in all lanes.

That fight is not designed to let people run back in time to participate. Kicking people when they’re down will not make them inclined to help afterwards, and you’ll get a nice empty fight with no one dying because no one started fighting in the first place. Enjoy your Vinewrath fight with a handful of friends, please do.

Note: I almost never fully die at Vinewrath. I think that may have been the first time, in fact. When I see someone down or dead, I take a moment to help them if it won’t just also kill me.

But you die outside the boss area, its easer to rez you in this case and if i see a dead player like you, at this place i’ll go to rez everytime i can.

maddoctor.2738:

While we are fighting the “issue” of scaling by dead players, maybe we should also do something for those using Sentinel or any kind of Defensive gear. Maybe also for those using condition based builds/gear.

One person using not-optimized for damage gear will make the event take way longer than a full DPS character. How about these guys? Is it the next logical step after dead players?

About the same as a non-skilled individual with a glass setup that doesn’t care when/if they die, I’d say.

Galphar.3901:

Easiest thing for A-Net to do is make “totally” dead players not count. Once someone is res’d, then they are added back into the mix.

I think too this might be the most smart suggestion. Dead people should be turned into “non existing” for the specific area of the map they are laying in. Only problem is that a dead player is still an object code wise..dunno how to solve this, probably with some “if” statement on player status ?

Food for thought on people who actually have programmer skills

Dead players don’t scale the event. A dev has already confirmed this. Please stop spreading false information.

The real issue isn’t that they are scaling the event. The issue is you now lack enough DPS to finish the event due to the lack of players. It’s not a scaling issue, just not enough players DPSing to finish in time.

WPing back is actually a pretty bad idea. Not only does it not scale the event, that lane would now have to wait for players to run back to their lane to aid in the defense stage. Without all the players, the defense stage becomes a bear to do also. Rezzing players just after you come out of the event, failed or not, is often the best strategy since you now have everyone there to assist with the defense.

Best thing you can do is stop spreading false information and try to help out all the players participating in the event with you by educating them on the tactics so they become better.

Too often I see players being verbally abused by other players at the Vinewraith because they don’t know the tactics or are just plain not that great. Teach them and help them. Save the rants and verbal abuse. It does nothing to help the event succeed.

Mad Rasputin.7809:

Dead players don’t scale the event. A dev has already confirmed this. Please stop spreading false information.

Interesting, did not know this.
Ofc I still have to wonder how frequently events check for re-scaling. Probably once each “wave”, so in the case of the Vinewrath bosses only the next boss (and usually each lane only fights once) would adapt to the number of players. This works better I guess for wave-spawn encounters where each wave probably checks anew.

5 things.

1. There’s already another thread on this someone else already linked.

2. HP of events upscale when players arrive but do not downscale when people leave – this is obtained from results some players got by running a script to read boss HP. The script itself had been ruled illegal by Anet after its inception however, so do not attempt to use it or make your own version, since that would probably contradict ToS. Dead players don’t affect the event – rather, DYING in an event does. After you die, regardless of whether you waypoint or lie there dead, you have already scaled the boss HP up. We ask people to run at Tequatl because they can rejoin the fight from Brooloonu Waypoint – if they decide to leave the map entirely, their impact on Tequatl’s maxHP remains there. For Vinewrath this is a nonfactor since you cannot reenter once you’re kicked out.

Incidentally, if waypointing out of a boss caused its maximum HP to reduce accordingly, no timed boss would ever fail from lack of dps. Rather, it could be FASTER if more people died, because that way the condition stack limit becomes a proportionally smaller issue. It should be quite clear how that would be a problem.

3. Lying dead has a problem even though waypointing does not change boss max HP. That is, the dead body will block some attempts by players to resurrect downed players near them, which leads to some saveable players dying for no reason. This is why we ask people to WP out at Vinewrath, not because of scaling. While dead players lying there dead is thus a legit problem, it generally isn’t the reason an event fails. An event generally fails because of the people dying in the first place. If you must blame someone for a fail, blame people for dying/players near them for not ressing them in time, not for them lying there dead.

Better still, consider how teaching people about the mechanics in advance during the waiting phase would have reduced the number of people that die, whether you could have done anything to res the dead (warbanner, spirit of nature etc), and whether you could have added more dps yourself in any way. We know a lot of people have commander tags, yet the number of people I see lead Vinewrath kills is in the single digit range for my timezone. While you have limited control over others’ decisions, you have full control over your own, and it is taking responsibility for your own decisions and for teaching others that makes a good player a good player, not blaming others that haven’t become as good as you yet for not being as good as you.

4. The simple solution is to eject the dead bodies at the entrance of Vinewrath the moment they die, rather than wait until the event fails before ejecting them – because we know the code already exists. It’s just a matter of moving the condition under which the code triggers. This is what you should petition Anet for.

5. The exception to all ‘res downed’ rules is Golem Mark II and any dead bodies in lava at the Megadestroyer, because the environmental damage rate greatly exceeds the rate at which a downed player can be resurrected.