Guild Wars 2

Narrrz.7532:

What’s the fix? will you be assigning healing power outside your wvw build? Do you expect the ‘meta’ to include healing power builds, going forward?

Not everyone should be able to finish all types of content in full DPS gear. When everyone, even new players, can complete content in the highest DPS gear then there is a problem with the content. Fix the content not the gear.

Even in PVP there are builds and professions that use full Berserker yet there are others that are not. Isn’t it better to make the game use all those just like in PVP? When the game was released everyone was running Soldier gear in dungeons.

So how do you make content smarter without being harder, and yet make healing useful without being required? We weren’t seeing it in the last beta weekend. The mobs had much higher price-of-failure difficulty, where if you missed the cues or diddn’t understand what was going on, you were likely to die; over the weekend, most people figured out how to cope with them (my revenant had trouble only when confronted by multiple smokescales, which tends to lead to them chaining their evasive mist fields and being invulnerable; she was built a lot less tanky than my current characters are)

The thing is Healing Power is already useful, you can check the countless solo/naked runs using Cleric gear with no dodge allowed. The problem with healing is that it makes content easier but considerably slower. But think about it, if they buff Healing like the OP suggests and the difference in time between healing and damage is so little then what’s the point of damage sets?

maddoctor.2738:

The thing is Healing Power is already useful, you can check the countless solo/naked runs using Cleric gear with no dodge allowed. The problem with healing is that it makes content easier but considerably slower. But think about it, if they buff Healing like the OP suggests and the difference in time between healing and damage is so little then what’s the point of damage sets?

I’m not disputing it’s useful, it’s just not viable. That people do these challenge runs just cements that for me. You don’t see people posting videos of themselves doing all-zerk runs going “HAY GAIZ LOOK WUT I CAN DEW” There’s a reason for that.

maddoctor.2738:

Not everyone should be able to finish all types of content in full DPS gear. When everyone, even new players, can complete content in the highest DPS gear then there is a problem with the content. Fix the content not the gear.

Even in PVP there are builds and professions that use full Berserker yet there are others that are not. Isn’t it better to make the game use all those just like in PVP? When the game was released everyone was running Soldier gear in dungeons.

I definitely think it’s better to make all attributes useful; that’s been my point all along. Sometimes it’s better to prune out the ones that don’t (sufficiently) contribute to the game. In the case of healing power, it’s not just that i think it doesn’t, i think it can’t. Not without such an overhaul that it’s no longer ‘healing power’ but a completely different stat which may incorporate some of the same function.
Simply adding boon duration, as many suggest, won’t fix it. It’ll make it better, sure – better to the point that the healing component will have to be cut back to prevent it being too strong. Competent pve players still won’t take it; new players of any stripe will be only more confused.

please understand i’m not advocating the removal of healing as a mechanic from the game, or the ability to build with a healing focus in pvp; i just don’t want it as a stat where it is not going to provide utility outside a narrow range, and be regarded as a useless waste of itemization in the majority of the game.

maddoctor.2738:

If Healing Power is so bad then why is it used so much in PVP/WvW? Same with Vitality and Toughness. No, the stats themselves are fine. The mobs (and even more so boss) design is what needs to change.

The problem with that line of thought is that defensive stats are useful in PvP because you cannot avoid taking damage in PvP, players are too smart. If mobs and bosses were changed to make defensive stats useful in the same way it would effectively mean they do a bunch of damage you can’t avoid and healing and tanking becomes needed purely to avoid getting killed again. That’s a step toward the trinity.

Harper.4173:

It’s weird because this was advertised as a no-tank, no-healer game. I’m wondering why people who want these made their way to GW2. Were they uninformed?

The game “advertised” me I cannot be a 100% healer but never advertised me I cannot be a half DPS / half support player. On the contrary when I used the build editor I saw that I can be a support oriented player that also does damage. In the top of that I also saw I can wear support oriented gear. So I concluded I can play a support characted in the same way I played a support characted at Battefield 3 (the guy that launchs medic pack between 2 shots). Maybe not a 100% healer like in other MMOs but a support player nevertheless.

Because why a serious dev team would provide support tools in a game in wich they are useless ?

So I bought the game the last week and chose to be a f*****g hammer/staff wielder guardian charr that protects his warband with mostly boons, controls and some heals.
And if a cannot play that support character when I reach the end game, I will leave this beautifull game.

Aetrion.8295:

maddoctor.2738:

If Healing Power is so bad then why is it used so much in PVP/WvW? Same with Vitality and Toughness. No, the stats themselves are fine. The mobs (and even more so boss) design is what needs to change.

The problem with that line of thought is that defensive stats are useful in PvP because you cannot avoid taking damage in PvP, players are too smart. If mobs and bosses were changed to make defensive stats useful in the same way it would effectively mean they do a bunch of damage you can’t avoid and healing and tanking becomes needed purely to avoid getting killed again. That’s a step toward the trinity.

There are already examples of encounters with unavoidable damage for example the Toxic Spores and the entire Tower of Nightmares had constant degeneration effect.

If mobs and bosses had much faster attacks (that dealt lower damage) then you would make a lot of things more useful, not only healing and tanking. Support is one thing that is currently somewhat lacking, the other is Control.

You can CC with full Berserker gear, there is no stat that governs CC. So to survive faster mobs that you can’t dodge all their attacks, you would have to use control skills, as a Staff Ele you would need to switch to other attunements to provide control, chill, cripple etc and not just camp fire and spam your rotation. Still in full Berserker gear. As a Warrior you might take a Mace or a Hammer for extra stun/daze instead of Axe+GS for damage. As a Thief you could use S/P (already done is some encounters) for the blind field instead of pure D/D damage rotation.

Then you might need to bring in extra Support skills. If all party members can drop Support and Healing effects, for example a Staff Ele popping Healing Rain often. If ALL party members rotate support there is no need for a pure Healer. If ALL party members rotate control there is no need for a pure Tank.

Then you have to choose, either the entire team brings all three or some members can specialize. The Zerker Staff Ele that HAS to switch to Healing Rain to heal and cure conditions or switch to Earth to use Shockwave is losing a LOT of DPS. IF another party member was specialized in doing that then that Zerker Staff Ele would just stay and DPS and leave Support and Control to others.

Control mobs, Support your team and Damage, isn’t that the Trinity the game was supposed to have?

Example:
Imagine a random 5 player team, if the encounters are designed to not be dodged easily, then all 5 players might need to pop Control and Support skills and not just damage. Alternatively, one of them that is specced in Support (more Healing Power) could provide the needed support for the team on his own, so the others don’t have to deal with it.

Both ways should be valid to complete the encounter.

Scipion.7548:

Harper.4173:

It’s weird because this was advertised as a no-tank, no-healer game. I’m wondering why people who want these made their way to GW2. Were they uninformed?

The game “advertised” me I cannot be a 100% healer but never advertised me I cannot be a half DPS / half support player. On the contrary when I used the build editor I saw that I can be a support oriented player that also does damage. In the top of that I also saw I can wear support oriented gear. So I concluded I can play a support characted in the same way I played a support characted at Battefield 3 (the guy that launchs medic pack between 2 shots). Maybe not a 100% healer like in other MMOs but a support player nevertheless.

Because why a serious dev team would provide support tools in a game in wich they are useless ?

So I bought the game the last week and chose to be a f*****g hammer/staff wielder guardian charr that protects his warband with mostly boons, controls and some heals.
And if a cannot play that support character when I reach the end game, I will leave this beautifull game.

You can play that character so what’s the issue? It won’t be optimal but it’s still perfectly viable.
Also as a Guardian the amount of defensive support you can pump out is awesome (blinds, reflects, stability, aegis, condi cleanse, regen etc.), along with some offensive boons (might, fury, quickness) depending on how you build. You can be the reason a team doesn’t wipe with one well timed aegis. Surely that’s worth it? And you can do that in any gear you want.

maddoctor.2738:

Example:
Imagine a random 5 player team, if the encounters are designed to not be dodged easily, then all 5 players might need to pop Control and Support skills and not just damage. Alternatively, one of them that is specced in Support (more Healing Power) could provide the needed support for the team on his own, so the others don’t have to deal with it.

Both ways should be valid to complete the encounter.

That’s kinda the bones of my idea. Healing power would be tied to a boon tied to a trait, accessible by professions who are proficient at providing outgoing healing to other allies. Thus, rather than needing a full set of healing gear which significantly diminishes their offensive utility, they instead respec to access the heal-amplification. The balance is through the loss of a trait or perhaps a different trait line, and their needing to bring a specific heal or utility skill to accomplish their healing.

AdaephonDelat.3890:

You can play that character so what’s the issue? It won’t be optimal but it’s still perfectly viable.

Never being able to actually be considered a great character is the issue.

Is it so hard to imagine that someone can care about how they play the game at the same time as caring about their performance in that role?

Aetrion.8295:

AdaephonDelat.3890:

You can play that character so what’s the issue? It won’t be optimal but it’s still perfectly viable.

Never being able to actually be considered a great character is the issue.

Is it so hard to imagine that someone can care about how they play the game at the same time as caring about their performance in that role?

But if they’re taking defensive support utilities and using them to support their group then how are they not performing in that role?

I don’t play Guardian very often and I don’t (knowingly) play meta builds but when I’ve played Guard I’ve managed to help and support my team with things like Aegis and Condi Cleanse all whilst doing damage. Surely I’m fulfilling my role of a supporter by keeping the team alive when I reflect those projectiles? Or when I use Aegis so a team member doesn’t get downed? Or removing the harmful conditions on allies so they don’t have to worry about them?

As far as I’m concerned that’s all support. Do you disagree with that?

AdaephonDelat.3890:

Aetrion.8295:

AdaephonDelat.3890:

You can play that character so what’s the issue? It won’t be optimal but it’s still perfectly viable.

Never being able to actually be considered a great character is the issue.

But if they’re taking defensive support utilities and using them to support their group then how are they not performing in that role?

I think his problem is that it’s not the current ‘meta’

The meta can’t be so easily controlled. it’s the unforseeable outcome of a very complex interplay of a very large number of variables, some of which are player perceptions and general game culture, hence why the meta can spontaneously shift.

Narrrz.7532:

AdaephonDelat.3890:

Aetrion.8295:

AdaephonDelat.3890:

You can play that character so what’s the issue? It won’t be optimal but it’s still perfectly viable.

Never being able to actually be considered a great character is the issue.

But if they’re taking defensive support utilities and using them to support their group then how are they not performing in that role?

I think his problem is that it’s not the current ‘meta’

The meta can’t be so easily controlled. it’s the unforseeable outcome of a very complex interplay of a very large number of variables, some of which are player perceptions and general game culture, hence why the meta can spontaneously shift.

Yeah I understand that but not every build can be meta. I believe this is the current hammer meta build by Obal. As far as I can see if offers good group support (reflects, aegis, might, fury, quickness, reflects, condi cleanse, group heals, protection) and solid damage. Seems pretty support oriented to me.

I was only really replying to the person talking about Guardian (which is why I’m focusing on that class) but as far as I can tell the support offered by the above meta build is exactly what that person was looking for. I guess I just have a hard time how someone can complain that they want to play support and support not being wanted when one of the current meta (ish?) builds is basically built around support.

Scipion.7548:

The game “advertised” me I cannot be a 100% healer but never advertised me I cannot be a half DPS / half support player. On the contrary when I used the build editor I saw that I can be a support oriented player that also does damage. In the top of that I also saw I can wear support oriented gear. So I concluded I can play a support characted in the same way I played a support characted at Battefield 3 (the guy that launchs medic pack between 2 shots). Maybe not a 100% healer like in other MMOs but a support player nevertheless.

Because why a serious dev team would provide support tools in a game in wich they are useless ?

So I bought the game the last week and chose to be a f*****g hammer/staff wielder guardian charr that protects his warband with mostly boons, controls and some heals.
And if a cannot play that support character when I reach the end game, I will leave this beautifull game.

You can be whatever you want.
You can also decide who’s worth playing with, instead of kowtowing to jerks too high on loot. Just be wary of dungeon LFGs and don’t try to fit in with meta-running groups.
I, for one, am willing to offer my hammer and banner to a fellow Charr.

Narrrz.7532:

I think his problem is that it’s not the current ‘meta’

The meta can’t be so easily controlled. it’s the unforseeable outcome of a very complex interplay of a very large number of variables, some of which are player perceptions and general game culture, hence why the meta can spontaneously shift.

The meta isn’t just made up though, the difference between playing with whatever random group and playing with people who are somewhat aligned with the meta is pretty noticeable, and the latter is a much smoother ride.

All demands for game balance always come from two competing motivations in the individual player. The desire to express themselves by making the character they want, and the desire to perform by making a character that is powerful in the game. There are people who care very little about one or the other, for example, someone who’s going to reroll their character without blinking to fit into “the meta” probably only cares about performance. Someone who’s going to be fine with likely never completing the really hard fractals because they only run when they can get a group that doesn’t care if its full of characters that are theme builds likely only cares about expression.
Most players care about both though, which is why the game needs a balance between being able to express yourself by making a character that suits you and being able to perform by having all characters be useful.

What I see a lot here is people treating the entire discussion as though people can only ever care about one or the other. Like if someone wants to complete all the content, do it fast, and always be welcome in a group then they should not care one lick about what they play with. Likewise people seem to act as though if someone cares about making a character to suit a theme because that’s just what they enjoy then they should not care about being able to get into groups and being appreciated by other players for being there.

So it really doesn’t help anything to say “If you care about personalizing your build don’t care about meta” or “If you care about meta don’t care about building something different”. That speaks to a few people in the extremist camps that don’t want game balance, and ignores everyone else who wants to enjoy a bit of both.