Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1

This is the only bit I have a problem with. Because nothing from GW1 exists in GW2.

If anything, the things they did take from Gw1, which were perfectly done, have been done terribly in gw2, like the targeting system (it is garbage in gw2)

RIP GW1, you will be sorely missed.

Have No Faith In Me.1840:

Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1

This is the only bit I have a problem with. Because nothing from GW1 exists in GW2.

If anything, the things they did take from Gw1, which were perfectly done, have been done terribly in gw2, like the targeting system (it is garbage in gw2)

RIP GW1, you will be sorely missed.

RIP GW2 August 2012 through November 2012. You will be sorely missed.

Vayne.8563:

Pariah.8506:

Red Falcon.8257:

The original game launched in August was pretty much what was advertised,

Persistent world – nope

fully branching personalized storyline – nope

event system to get people playing together – nope, zerging isn’t playing together, it’s people doing their own thing who just happened to have the same target

‘When you look at the art in our game, you say “Wow that’s visually stunning, I’ve never seen anything like that before.” And then when you play the combat in our game, you say “Wow that’s incredible, I’ve never seen anything like that.
In most games you go out, and you have really fun tasks occasionally to do. And the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. I swung a sword, I swung a sword again.’ – This contradicts itself really seeing how the game turned out
In the game world these horrible centaurs are standing around in a field and you get a quest step that says “Go kill ten centaurs”. We don’t think that’s OK. – Apparently, you do.

We don’t want to make the same MMO that everyone else is building – Haha, oh wow
in Guild Wars 2, it’s your world, it’s your story, you affect things around you in a very permanent way. ’ – It feel like I’m taking crazy pills reading this

You’re meeting new people, whom you will then see again. You’re rescuing a village that will stay rescued, then remember you – Unless I turn my back and the event comes rolling around again within 10 seconds. Dear fishermen of Viathan Lake, I think you should just relocate..

Ad I only pulled out the easy ones.

3. Zerging isn’t playing together? I don’t know. I’m playing with other people, even in a zerg. HOWEVER< some of us are in guilds and play with each other all the time doing events. Do you rez people when down in a zerg? Lots of people do. Maybe you don’t knwo what playing together means.

In fact, I’m not sure you’ve played this game at all.

You run up to something and attack it, another person does the same. After it is dead you both go your separate ways without ever having to say a word. Is that playing together in your book? There is negligible actual interaction between players, whether the DPS other people do comes from actual players or from bots or simply out of the sky doesn’t matter. There is no difference between a player DPSing alongside you and an AI filling the player’s place as a DPS dealer.

Vayne.8563:

2. So what makes a storyline FULLY branching or not FULLY branching? Infinite choices? Did you really expect that. It’s a storyline that branches…and it branches quite a lot. I’m not sure why you think it doesn’t live up to that. Maybe you’re reading something into the idea besides that’s being said?

The story didn’t branch out, it converged. It would not have been so if us clicking different things in dialogue options wouldn’t have been promptly forgotten by every character in the game. A Sylvari will have exactly the same dialogue as another character when talking to the Pale Tree about the vision of Orr, your sparring partner and warband your Charr has constructed will quickly be left behind and never ever be relevant or involved again and it doesn’t matter if you’ve helped Crarys and Taegwin with the mirror or Orr in the past, both them and you will be struck by amnesia and act like you’ve never met before should you meet again.
Every so often your character will start with an entirely clean slate disregarding anything they’ve done in the past. And so at those points the story doesn’t branch but converge any and all “choices” – be they made during character creation or later – into one and the same unaltered and unaffected outcome.

Chuo.4238:

ArenaNet is never, ever going to live this down, it appears. And rightly so. I hope people keep shoving the manifesto back in ArenaNet’s face for as long as it takes.

You can quibble all you want – it’s pretty clear that the spirit of the Manifesto is nothing close to what got delivered in GW2.

Nope. it’s pretty clear TO YOU. There are people in this thread who have said it’s mostly accurate.

It’s funny how this entire generation grew up with what computer companies say and do, and they STILL don’t get it. Companies make their games sound good. Your job as a consumer is to see what they’re actually saying, instead of what you want to hear.

Most people seem to be lousy at this. You should spend some time watching the show The Gruen Transfer. They talk about stuff like this all the time.

Pariah.8506:

Vayne.8563:

Pariah.8506:

Red Falcon.8257:

The original game launched in August was pretty much what was advertised,

Persistent world – nope

fully branching personalized storyline – nope

event system to get people playing together – nope, zerging isn’t playing together, it’s people doing their own thing who just happened to have the same target

‘When you look at the art in our game, you say “Wow that’s visually stunning, I’ve never seen anything like that before.” And then when you play the combat in our game, you say “Wow that’s incredible, I’ve never seen anything like that.
In most games you go out, and you have really fun tasks occasionally to do. And the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. I swung a sword, I swung a sword again.’ – This contradicts itself really seeing how the game turned out
In the game world these horrible centaurs are standing around in a field and you get a quest step that says “Go kill ten centaurs”. We don’t think that’s OK. – Apparently, you do.

We don’t want to make the same MMO that everyone else is building – Haha, oh wow
in Guild Wars 2, it’s your world, it’s your story, you affect things around you in a very permanent way. ’ – It feel like I’m taking crazy pills reading this

You’re meeting new people, whom you will then see again. You’re rescuing a village that will stay rescued, then remember you – Unless I turn my back and the event comes rolling around again within 10 seconds. Dear fishermen of Viathan Lake, I think you should just relocate..

Ad I only pulled out the easy ones.

3. Zerging isn’t playing together? I don’t know. I’m playing with other people, even in a zerg. HOWEVER< some of us are in guilds and play with each other all the time doing events. Do you rez people when down in a zerg? Lots of people do. Maybe you don’t knwo what playing together means.

In fact, I’m not sure you’ve played this game at all.

You run up to something and attack it, another person does the same. After it is dead you both go your separate ways without ever having to say a word. Is that playing together in your book? There is negligible actual interaction between players, whether the DPS other people do comes from actual players or from bots or simply out of the sky doesn’t matter. There is no difference between a player DPSing alongside you and an AI filling the player’s place as a DPS dealer.

Vayne.8563:

2. So what makes a storyline FULLY branching or not FULLY branching? Infinite choices? Did you really expect that. It’s a storyline that branches…and it branches quite a lot. I’m not sure why you think it doesn’t live up to that. Maybe you’re reading something into the idea besides that’s being said?

The story didn’t branch out, it converged. It would not have been so if us clicking different things in dialogue options wouldn’t have been promptly forgotten by every character in the game. A Sylvari will have exactly the same dialogue as another character when talking to the Pale Tree about the vision of Orr, your sparring partner and warband your Charr has constructed will quickly be left behind and never ever be relevant or involved again and it doesn’t matter if you’ve helped Crarys and Taegwin with the mirror or Orr in the past, both them and you will be struck by amnesia and act like you’ve never met before should you meet again.
Every so often your character will start with an entirely clean slate disregarding anything they’ve done in the past. And so at those points the story doesn’t branch but converge any and all “choices” – be they made during character creation or later – into one and the same unaltered and unaffected outcome.

Branching doesn’t mean infinite branching. Even at the end, the story branches. One person decides to go one way and one person decides to go another way. The simplest example is the conversation you have with the one tree. Depending on how that conversation goes, you get one of three different endings.

I’d call that branching by any definition I know.

I have six characters that have finished their personal story completely and I still find personal stories at the end I hadn’t done.

cesmode.4257:

Have No Faith In Me.1840:

Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1

This is the only bit I have a problem with. Because nothing from GW1 exists in GW2.

If anything, the things they did take from Gw1, which were perfectly done, have been done terribly in gw2, like the targeting system (it is garbage in gw2)

RIP GW1, you will be sorely missed.

RIP GW2 August 2012 through November 2012. You will be sorely missed.

Because the game is dead. Good try.

Vayne.8563:

Nope. it’s pretty clear TO YOU. There are people in this thread who have said it’s mostly accurate.

It’s funny how this entire generation grew up with what computer companies say and do, and they STILL don’t get it. Companies make their games sound good. Your job as a consumer is to see what they’re actually saying, instead of what you want to hear.

Most people seem to be lousy at this. You should spend some time watching the show The Gruen Transfer. They talk about stuff like this all the time.

In a general sense, I agree with you. In this case, though (not just the Manifesto, but all of the pre-release propaganda) I think most people would have felt the developers were genuine and passionate about their vision. I’m a guy who can separate the hype from the substance, but even I was caught off guard when things changed directions so quickly after launch.

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

Nope. it’s pretty clear TO YOU. There are people in this thread who have said it’s mostly accurate.

It’s funny how this entire generation grew up with what computer companies say and do, and they STILL don’t get it. Companies make their games sound good. Your job as a consumer is to see what they’re actually saying, instead of what you want to hear.

Most people seem to be lousy at this. You should spend some time watching the show The Gruen Transfer. They talk about stuff like this all the time.

In a general sense, I agree with you. In this case, though (not just the Manifesto, but all of the pre-release propaganda) I think most people would have felt the developers were genuine and passionate about their vision. I’m a guy who can separate the hype from the substance, but even I was caught off guard when things changed directions so quickly after launch.

If you think, really think, a game like this could have been created at all without vision and passion, I’d say you’re wrong.

Vision and passion do NOT preclude compromise.

Maybe it was my time in the publishing industry that has me seeing this differently but I’ve seen publishers and editors make authors change things they were passionate about. Authors are pretty much at the mercy of publishing houses, unless they’re like Stephen King or someone. Then they get a say…but most authors don’t. Authors are a dime a dozen. Slots to publish their work are few and far between. If a publisher wants something changed, you change it.

Does that mean you lack passion about your work or you’re somehow a sell out.

I can think of something I wrote that I had to change that I felt very strongly about. I could have never sold it at all and kept it as it was. It would have been pure, but no one would have ever seen it.

You can be passionate and still compromise. These things aren’t mutually exclusive.

Vayne.8563:

Branching doesn’t mean infinite branching. Even at the end, the story branches. One person decides to go one way and one person decides to go another way. The simplest example is the conversation you have with the one tree. Depending on how that conversation goes, you get one of three different endings.

I’d call that branching by any definition I know.

I have six characters that have finished their personal story completely and I still find personal stories at the end I hadn’t done.

And do tell, what is the consequence of that “choice”?

Vayne.8563:

If you think, really think, a game like this could have been created at all without vision and passion, I’d say you’re wrong.

I didn’t say that. I said the opposite, in fact. Re-read my post within the context of what you said about hype.

Pariah.8506:

Vayne.8563:

Branching doesn’t mean infinite branching. Even at the end, the story branches. One person decides to go one way and one person decides to go another way. The simplest example is the conversation you have with the one tree. Depending on how that conversation goes, you get one of three different endings.

I’d call that branching by any definition I know.

I have six characters that have finished their personal story completely and I still find personal stories at the end I hadn’t done.

And do tell, what is the consequence of that “choice”?

Branching doesn’t imply anything other than your story changes…which…get this…is different from any MMO that existed prior to that happening. In WoW all human warriors have the same story.

Anyone who didn’t know that all roads led to Zhaitan…well I don’t even know what to say to that.

Most RPGs have one ending, no matter how many roads they have to get there.

Vayne.8563:

Branching doesn’t imply anything other than your story changes…

Ok, and how does your story change? Tonn still dies, an enemy mesmer still infiltrates the ranks and the Krait Orb is still retrieved by an unknown force which is apparently as competent as you.

And don’t bring WoW or other RPGs into this, this isn’t about them. This is about what Anet devs said about their game that turned out to be completely untrue, something that can basically be considered false advertising.

Pariah.8506:

Vayne.8563:

Branching doesn’t imply anything other than your story changes…

Ok, and how does your story change? Tonn still dies, an enemy mesmer still infiltrates the ranks and the Krait Orb is still retrieved by an unknown force which is apparently as competent as you.

And don’t bring WoW or other RPGs into this, this isn’t about them. This is about what Anet devs said about their game that turned out to be completely untrue, something that can basically be considered false advertising.

It IS about them. You’re not looking at the big picture, only the tiny sliver you want to look at.

Anet made a manifesto that talked about how they want to change the MMO genre. At the point it came out, no MMO really had a personal story. Certainly not a branching one. That’s what Anet did. It moved that aspect further. SWTOR of course did the same thing (possibly much better, but there were plenty of the same complaints in SWToR I’ve heard from people about the story not changing anything in the world).

The point is, the manifesto was showing how Anet was changing the genre. That changed the genre. that’s it.

One of the biggest misconceptions was covered in the clarification posted 3 days after the manifesto was released. Colin was talking about dynamic events and Ree was talking about the personal story. Anet said this loudly and clearly. The link to this is somewhere earlier in the thread.

So Colin was staying stuff you did in the world changed the world (which it does, just not permanently. The changes you make in the open world are persistent but not permanent. By the same token, Ree was talking about the personal story. Yes, the editing to make it look nice and artsy screwed the message a little which is WHY they came out with a clarification.

Now this is the key bit. If everyone’s personal story actually changed the world, think about it, how could that even work in an MMO? I mean I kill a guy and he’s dead for everyone, so you get a different guy? Who has the resources to do something like that? It’s not plausible nor is it reasonable to expect.

The story is going to be the same for everyone because everyone has to end up at the same place. This is how most RPGs work. You end up at the last boss, who you kill. I’m not sure why you expected anything else.

Just an observation before we I continue responding in the thread:

Vayne, you must wake up in the morning, eat your wheaties, drink some gatorade and then whip up some of that ‘vayne-forumposting’ milkshake for the road, man. Hahaha, you are relentless! Its admirable.

The changes I make in the open world are hardly persistant. Yay, I collected destroyer eggs for some Charr in some zone. Great…now what? I notice nothing is different around me.

Vayne.8563:

Anet made a manifesto that talked about how they want to change the MMO genre.

They said they wanted to innovate, not change the genre. If they’d want to change the genre they’d make it a sandbox, and a lot of other underused things. The manifesto was about the things they would include in Guild Wars 2, whether those things were innovative or not doesn’t change the fact that they clearly said what stuff would be in the game.

Vayne.8563:

The point is, the manifesto was showing how Anet was changing the genre. That changed the genre. that’s it.

Changed the genre? It’s still has the exact same gameplay premises of the majority. The fact it’s a themepark, the camera angle, the skill hotbar, the levelling centred character progression, the optional crafting, the regimented and isolated PvP and honestly I can go on and on.

Vayne.8563:

The changes you make in the open world are persistent but not permanent.

Contradictio in terminis

Vayne.8563:

Now this is the key bit. If everyone’s personal story actually changed the world, think about it, how could that even work in an MMO? I mean I kill a guy and he’s dead for everyone, so you get a different guy? Who has the resources to do something like that? It’s not plausible nor is it reasonable to expect.

The story is going to be the same for everyone because everyone has to end up at the same place. This is how most RPGs work. You end up at the last boss, who you kill. I’m not sure why you expected anything else.

I did not state that PS and open world should intermingle, in fact nobody stated that. What I said about lack of consequence and the converging has absolutely nothing to do with the open world. I do not and did not profess PS changes should affect the open world.

There is zero reason to not have branching, action reaction, choice and permanent consequence in the personal story because it is instanced. Everyone gets his own copy of a tiny area of the map where story events take place, and those story events should have some kind of effect on those that follow them up, not the entire world, but we get neither. Making the story as impersonal as can be, the battle of Fort Trinity will be exactly the same for absolutely everyone despite being instanced. Meaning they could have perfectly made players who met Tonn acquire some explosives to use against enemies and not have the Krait Orb, players who defeated the mesmer having bolstered troop morale buffing the fort’s NPCs and still not having the Orb and players that got the Orb to face less enemies due to the Orb’s aura but having nor the explosives nor the buffed NPCs.
This is an issue that concerns what they said in the manifesto, the actual game, and nothing else. Nor WoW, nor SWOTR nor any other RPG have anything to do with Anet saying one thing and doing another.

Smith.1826:

Thanks for the write-up, OP. It’s nice to be able to read it in full.

On that note, it honestly just feels like one big fancy commercial.

And while we’re on the subject of posting things said by devs, my favorite piece has to be the one by Jeff Strain, “How To Create A Successful MMO”: http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php

That speech was an extremely interesting read. Thank you!
Here is why:

“An MMO must deliver content at three distinct stages: the early game, which is the first twenty hours, the mid game, which is the first few hundred hours, and the late game, which is at a thousand hours and beyond.”

Now compare it against the last PAX interview, given by Colin:

http://imgur.com/a/Bk3UN

During this interview, Colin essentially explained that they made a mistake in their development of the game. He said that they had not expected players to reach the exotic tier gear so quickly, which is essentially why they introduced the ascended stat tier.

Now put 1 and 1 together. In order to fix their mistake, and remain a succesful MMO, they had to make a choice:

1) make a change to the “late game”, so that GW2 would have the necessary ingredient they considered essential for any succesful MMO. Namely, that your game should be designed such that players will reach the late stage of the game after having played it for more than 1,000 hours; or
2) distance themselves from the manifesto, and disappoint players that thought they had already reached the “late game”. In order to ease this pain, and to keep the old customer base happy, new content was promised on a 2-weekly basis, which admittedly is something no MMO to date has been able to pull off.

They had to make a very tough choice. It could well be that they made this choice based on the future. Let’s not forget that this future includes, amongst others, attracting millions of new players from Asia.

cesmode.4257:

Just an observation before we I continue responding in the thread:

Vayne, you must wake up in the morning, eat your wheaties, drink some gatorade and then whip up some of that ‘vayne-forumposting’ milkshake for the road, man. Hahaha, you are relentless! Its admirable.

The changes I make in the open world are hardly persistant. Yay, I collected destroyer eggs for some Charr in some zone. Great…now what? I notice nothing is different around me.

You’re missing the point….which Rift would prove. If you don’t take back an outpost, that waypoint remains contested. That’s not the case in Rift. If an invasion in Rift takes over an outpost, all by itself, it evaoporates in an hour or so. At least it did when I played. It was like it never happened.

Contrast that to what Guild Wars 2 is doing. You’ve never gone to a map and seen every waypoint contested?

Those changes are NOT permanent, but they are definitely persistent.

Buttercup.5871:

Smith.1826:

Thanks for the write-up, OP. It’s nice to be able to read it in full.

On that note, it honestly just feels like one big fancy commercial.

And while we’re on the subject of posting things said by devs, my favorite piece has to be the one by Jeff Strain, “How To Create A Successful MMO”: http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php

That speech was an extremely interesting read. Thank you!
Here is why:

“An MMO must deliver content at three distinct stages: the early game, which is the first twenty hours, the mid game, which is the first few hundred hours, and the late game, which is at a thousand hours and beyond.”

Now compare it against the last PAX interview, given by Colin:

http://imgur.com/a/Bk3UN

During this interview, Colin essentially explained that they made a mistake in their development of the game. He said that they had not expected players to reach the exotic tier gear so quickly, which is essentially why they introduced the ascended stat tier.

Now put 1 and 1 together. In order to fix their mistake, and remain a succesful MMO, they had to make a choice:

1) make a change to the “late game”, so that GW2 would have the necessary ingredient they considered essential for any succesful MMO. Namely, that your game should be designed such that players will reach the late stage of the game after having played it for more than 1,000 hours; or
2) distance themselves from the manifesto, and disappoint players that thought they had already reached the “late game”. In order to ease this pain, and to keep the old customer base happy, new content was promised on a 2-weekly basis, which admittedly is something no MMO to date has been able to pull off.

They had to make a very tough choice. It could well be that they made this choice based on the future. Let’s not forget that this future includes, amongst others, attracting millions of new players from Asia.

“I, for one welcome our new Chinese overlords”

MrRuin.9740:

You can bet if Anet learned anything from the Manifesto…its to not have one out there and to say as little as possible because this is what happens.

Actually, if there’s something they should’ve learned from the massive clusterkitten they got themselves into, is to try and sell what you’re actually developing, not what you would do in an utopistic world.

Buttercup.5871:

2) distance themselves from the manifesto, and disappoint players that thought they had already reached the “late game”. In order to ease this pain, and to keep the old customer base happy, new content was promised on a 2-weekly basis, which admittedly is something no MMO to date has been able to pull off.

Call my cynical, but where you see the Living Story as something to keep the old customer base happy I see a treadmill designed to get players to log in as often as possible and delivery system for a constant influx of temporarily available items in the cash shop.

Vayne.8563:

Pariah.8506:

Red Falcon.8257:

The original game launched in August was pretty much what was advertised,

Persistent world – nope

fully branching personalized storyline – nope

event system to get people playing together – nope, zerging isn’t playing together, it’s people doing their own thing who just happened to have the same target

‘When you look at the art in our game, you say “Wow that’s visually stunning, I’ve never seen anything like that before.” And then when you play the combat in our game, you say “Wow that’s incredible, I’ve never seen anything like that.
In most games you go out, and you have really fun tasks occasionally to do. And the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. I swung a sword, I swung a sword again.’ – This contradicts itself really seeing how the game turned out
In the game world these horrible centaurs are standing around in a field and you get a quest step that says “Go kill ten centaurs”. We don’t think that’s OK. – Apparently, you do.

We don’t want to make the same MMO that everyone else is building – Haha, oh wow
in Guild Wars 2, it’s your world, it’s your story, you affect things around you in a very permanent way. ’ – It feel like I’m taking crazy pills reading this

You’re meeting new people, whom you will then see again. You’re rescuing a village that will stay rescued, then remember you – Unless I turn my back and the event comes rolling around again within 10 seconds. Dear fishermen of Viathan Lake, I think you should just relocate..

Ad I only pulled out the easy ones.

1. The world is persistent. How can you claim it’s not. That’s the most ridiculous thing said on these forums in a long time. Persistent means it persists, even if no players are on the map…which is the case. The world is persistent.

2. So what makes a storyline FULLY branching or not FULLY branching? Infinite choices? Did you really expect that. It’s a storyline that branches…and it branches quite a lot. I’m not sure why you think it doesn’t live up to that. Maybe you’re reading something into the idea besides that’s being said?

3. Zerging isn’t playing together? I don’t know. I’m playing with other people, even in a zerg. HOWEVER< some of us are in guilds and play with each other all the time doing events. Do you rez people when down in a zerg? Lots of people do. Maybe you don’t knwo what playing together means.

In fact, I’m not sure you’ve played this game at all.

I get the feeling that a lot of people posting in this thread did that. So many people with overblown expectations because of completely unrealistic ideals they set up in their head.

I didn’t expect more than I got when the head start went live so as a result I haven’t stressed once about how I was lied to (which I wasn’t).

Have No Faith In Me.1840:

Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1

This is the only bit I have a problem with. Because nothing from GW1 exists in GW2.

If anything, the things they did take from Gw1, which were perfectly done, have been done terribly in gw2, like the targeting system (it is garbage in gw2)

RIP GW1, you will be sorely missed.

I remember having different experiences with the targeting system in GW1. I remember it being just as bad as the one we currently have in GW2.

And you can still play GW1 you know? Unless they shut the servers down recently and I missed that announcement somewhere.

fellyn.5083:

Have No Faith In Me.1840:

Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1

This is the only bit I have a problem with. Because nothing from GW1 exists in GW2.

If anything, the things they did take from Gw1, which were perfectly done, have been done terribly in gw2, like the targeting system (it is garbage in gw2)

RIP GW1, you will be sorely missed.

I remember having different experiences with the targeting system in GW1. I remember it being just as bad as the one we currently have in GW2.

And you can still play GW1 you know? Unless they shut the servers down recently and I missed that announcement somewhere.

Go play GW1 again, I STILL DO, the targeting in GW1 is FAR SUPERIOR to that of GW2.

Im Mudbone.1437:

fellyn.5083:

Have No Faith In Me.1840:

Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1

This is the only bit I have a problem with. Because nothing from GW1 exists in GW2.

If anything, the things they did take from Gw1, which were perfectly done, have been done terribly in gw2, like the targeting system (it is garbage in gw2)

RIP GW1, you will be sorely missed.

I remember having different experiences with the targeting system in GW1. I remember it being just as bad as the one we currently have in GW2.

And you can still play GW1 you know? Unless they shut the servers down recently and I missed that announcement somewhere.

Go play GW1 again, I STILL DO, the targeting in GW1 is FAR SUPERIOR to that of GW2.

I have. It still likes to select targets for me that are in an entire different zip code of the map.

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

Three years later, a statement of intent. I think if you’re going to be 100% accurate, you’d also have to include the clarification that was posted 3 days after this though….because word for word without the clarification seems a bit misleading to me…particularly since they corrected at least one potential misintepretation publicly and right away.

Manifesto, statement of intent, propaganda…I don’t care what you call it. The fact is the ideals expressed in that “statement of intent” were sold down the river within a year of release. Just because the reversal of design philosophy doesn’t bother you doesn’t mean we should all accept it with a “meh” and a shrug of our shoulders.

I’m with you on this. Just like when they claim we should all ignore that they told us this and login for simply the “fun” of logging in, that it doesn’t matter that gear exists with higher stats or that we should just ignore that this game has become the opposite of what they claimed it would be.

To the statement above, I didn’t expect more than I was told and the manifesto was hardly the end all be all of the statements made by multiple devs (interestingly, most of those interviews disappeared entirely off the web in December of last year after people started questioning what was going on from November’s completely different direction than before so of course I don’t have those interviews to post here.) I just find it amazing that people think it’s solely due to one statement they made, it’s not it’s multiple statements over a period of 1 year prior to launch.

fellyn.5083:

Im Mudbone.1437:

fellyn.5083:

Have No Faith In Me.1840:

Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1

This is the only bit I have a problem with. Because nothing from GW1 exists in GW2.

If anything, the things they did take from Gw1, which were perfectly done, have been done terribly in gw2, like the targeting system (it is garbage in gw2)

RIP GW1, you will be sorely missed.

I remember having different experiences with the targeting system in GW1. I remember it being just as bad as the one we currently have in GW2.

And you can still play GW1 you know? Unless they shut the servers down recently and I missed that announcement somewhere.

Go play GW1 again, I STILL DO, the targeting in GW1 is FAR SUPERIOR to that of GW2.

I have. It still likes to select targets for me that are in an entire different zip code of the map.

Odd, works flawlessly for me, along with SEVERAL other things in GW1 compared to GW2..

Buttercup.5871:

Smith.1826:

Thanks for the write-up, OP. It’s nice to be able to read it in full.

On that note, it honestly just feels like one big fancy commercial.

And while we’re on the subject of posting things said by devs, my favorite piece has to be the one by Jeff Strain, “How To Create A Successful MMO”: http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php

That speech was an extremely interesting read. Thank you!
Here is why:

“An MMO must deliver content at three distinct stages: the early game, which is the first twenty hours, the mid game, which is the first few hundred hours, and the late game, which is at a thousand hours and beyond.”

Now compare it against the last PAX interview, given by Colin:

http://imgur.com/a/Bk3UN

During this interview, Colin essentially explained that they made a mistake in their development of the game. He said that they had not expected players to reach the exotic tier gear so quickly, which is essentially why they introduced the ascended stat tier.

Now put 1 and 1 together. In order to fix their mistake, and remain a succesful MMO, they had to make a choice:

1) make a change to the “late game”, so that GW2 would have the necessary ingredient they considered essential for any succesful MMO. Namely, that your game should be designed such that players will reach the late stage of the game after having played it for more than 1,000 hours; or
2) distance themselves from the manifesto, and disappoint players that thought they had already reached the “late game”. In order to ease this pain, and to keep the old customer base happy, new content was promised on a 2-weekly basis, which admittedly is something no MMO to date has been able to pull off.

They had to make a very tough choice. It could well be that they made this choice based on the future. Let’s not forget that this future includes, amongst others, attracting millions of new players from Asia.

Wrong.

Having BiS gear by level 80 was intended from the beginning. In no way was it a mistake. It was a conscious decision. This is the Eurogamer quote from Johansen that is floating around.

If a mistake was made, then it was making it too easy to get to level 80 in the first place. I recall in launch week, when someone got to level 80 in 2 days via crafting, Anet called her an “exploiter” and later had to apologize. So clearly they had not expected people to level so quickly.

If that was problem, then where Ascendeds the best solution?

Short term maybe, but not long term. Best long term to solution to easy leveling is raising the level cap, and make the leveling from old level cap to new harder.

But you can’t raise the level cap 2 months after launch, so they went with the short term solution of gear grind at the current level cap.

Thrumdi.9216:

Buttercup.5871:

Smith.1826:

Thanks for the write-up, OP. It’s nice to be able to read it in full.

On that note, it honestly just feels like one big fancy commercial.

And while we’re on the subject of posting things said by devs, my favorite piece has to be the one by Jeff Strain, “How To Create A Successful MMO”: http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php

That speech was an extremely interesting read. Thank you!
Here is why:

“An MMO must deliver content at three distinct stages: the early game, which is the first twenty hours, the mid game, which is the first few hundred hours, and the late game, which is at a thousand hours and beyond.”

Now compare it against the last PAX interview, given by Colin:

http://imgur.com/a/Bk3UN

During this interview, Colin essentially explained that they made a mistake in their development of the game. He said that they had not expected players to reach the exotic tier gear so quickly, which is essentially why they introduced the ascended stat tier.

Now put 1 and 1 together. In order to fix their mistake, and remain a succesful MMO, they had to make a choice:

1) make a change to the “late game”, so that GW2 would have the necessary ingredient they considered essential for any succesful MMO. Namely, that your game should be designed such that players will reach the late stage of the game after having played it for more than 1,000 hours; or
2) distance themselves from the manifesto, and disappoint players that thought they had already reached the “late game”. In order to ease this pain, and to keep the old customer base happy, new content was promised on a 2-weekly basis, which admittedly is something no MMO to date has been able to pull off.

They had to make a very tough choice. It could well be that they made this choice based on the future. Let’s not forget that this future includes, amongst others, attracting millions of new players from Asia.

Wrong.

Having BiS gear by level 80 was intended from the beginning. In no way was it a mistake. It was a conscious decision. This is the Eurogamer quote from Johansen that is floating around.

If a mistake was made, then it was making it too easy to get to level 80 in the first place. I recall in launch week, when someone got to level 80 in 2 days via crafting, Anet called her an “exploiter” and later had to apologize. So clearly they had not expected people to level so quickly.

If that was problem, then where Ascendeds the best solution?

Short term maybe, but not long term. Best long term to solution to easy leveling is raising the level cap, and make the leveling from old level cap to new harder.

But you can’t raise the level cap 2 months after launch, so they went with the short term solution of gear grind at the current level cap.

It’s all assumption really, obviously Anet wants people to keep playing their game. The more time someone spends in the game and the more time it takes to obtain a item either through rng or timegating or whatever implementation is used, the more likely it becomes that people will open up their wallets. From a business perspective it makes complete sense, however why they could have not simply applied the time factor into obtaining more skills or replaceable traits etc etc is beyond me. Introducing a gear chase just to satisfy a base of players that can’t see progression through any other means than inflated stats boggles the mind when they could have gone in so many other directions. Now that ascended gear is in the game, if they do not increase statistical difficulty of the enemies you face then the higher statistics of ascended becomes largely wasted developer resources. As it stands now ascended is little more than a carrot on the stick, that Anet said they wanted to avoid. I know Colin J has given reasons as to why they don’t just release all the ascended gear at once, but personally I would rather it be done that way as opposed to this structured release schedule they have now since the end result is the exact same as releasing new tiers it keeps you constantly chasing.

Manifesto=Campaign promise end of story . im tired of hearing about it .

So it all still comes down to players being generally unhappy with the introduction of a higher tier of gear? I mean, how is that a deterrent from playing the game? In fact, I’ve heard from so many that the skins aren’t even something to really gawk over so why the big fuss?

Good luck to you guys who seem so utterly dissatisfied with the game all the time. If something makes you unhappy constantly, logic would have it that you move on to something else. Bar the recent lag/disconnect issues and certain bugs in-game, this game is a gem.

Pariah.8506:

You’re meeting new people, whom you will then see again. You’re rescuing a village that will stay rescued, then remember you – Unless I turn my back and the event comes rolling around again within 10 seconds. Dear fishermen of Viathan Lake, I think you should just relocate..

I loled so hard but yeah, this is one of the things about Dynamic Events that irritate me. Sad but true.

darkace.8925:

One of the main reasons I got into this game is because the developers in every blog, interview, and video game the impression that they believed in what they were doing. Their passion for making something better than the genre-norm was as refreshing as their reversal on that ideal was disappointing.

Spot on, the manifesto was the centrepiece of those ideals but it was in almost every single piece of info released by anet around that time eg. Colin’s blog about fun. To have them panic and go against those ideals within 2 months of launch was hugely disappointing. And then to not only not address the change but to deny there was a change at all was rubbing salt into the wound.

As for persistent world, on wikipedia its defined as “A persistent world (PW) is a virtual world that continues to exist even after a user exits it, and to whose state user-made changes are to some extent permanent”

For minor changes sure its persistent but for major changes its not really.

From a more personal point of view the treatment of world v world just makes it worse, a part of the game that has hardcore guilds playing it has been treated shamefully.

Thrumdi.9216:

Wrong.

Having BiS gear by level 80 was intended from the beginning. In no way was it a mistake. It was a conscious decision. This is the Eurogamer quote from Johansen that is floating around.

Yeah I’ve said it before but that quote is bizarre, I think he’s either misremembering or being disingenuous. Plus there’s the fact that at launch exotic gear wasn’t that easy to get unless you did certain things exactly right. They in fact made it much easier with the introduction of karma jugs as rewards around about the time ascended trinkets were introduced.

ToPocHi.2480:

So it all still comes down to players being generally unhappy with the introduction of a higher tier of gear? I mean, how is that a deterrent from playing the game? In fact, I’ve heard from so many that the skins aren’t even something to really gawk over so why the big fuss?

Good luck to you guys who seem so utterly dissatisfied with the game all the time. If something makes you unhappy constantly, logic would have it that you move on to something else. Bar the recent lag/disconnect issues and certain bugs in-game, this game is a gem.

It’s only a vocal minority of people who post on the forum that feel that way. The majority of people are playing the game and are perfectly okay with it.

You just watch, some one will reply to this and be like “but my entire guild of 482 people all quit because of it! Anet done goofed!”. Which is a claim not even the person who made it can back up with any sort of proof.

Tis hard. Guild Wars 2 is like your lying and cheating Girlfriend who was once loyal to you and changed over time and you’re still staying with her because of the good old times that you had.

fellyn.5083:

It’s only a vocal minority of people who post on the forum that feel that way. The majority of people are playing the game and are perfectly okay with it..

So what’s the purpose of a forum?

1: Game is great!
A:NET = Thanks for the response, we appreciate it
2: Game sucks!
A:NET = You’re just a vocal minority. Those who enjoy the game don’t go to the forums

Say WAT!

alcopaul.2156:

So what’s the purpose of a forum?

The purpose of a forum is to interact. That interaction can either be positive or negative, and there’s no problem with either.

That said, official forums (for any game really) are generally a TERRIBLE sample size of the player base as a whole. That’s also true.

Maybe you ARE a minority. Arena.net seems to think so. So what? Your complaints are just as valid (or not) completely on their own merits.

alcopaul.2156:

fellyn.5083:

It’s only a vocal minority of people who post on the forum that feel that way. The majority of people are playing the game and are perfectly okay with it..

So what’s the purpose of a forum?

1: Game is great!
A:NET = Thanks for the response, we appreciate it
2: Game sucks!
A:NET = You’re just a vocal minority. Those who enjoy the game don’t go to the forums

Say WAT!

I thought it was a pretty widely known thing that only a small portion of the player base bother with posting on the forums.

Thats not the point. Just because its a minority thats speaking out doesnt mean their arguments arent valid or that the general population wouldnt like those ideas. The general population from what i have seen dont care what comes out just that theres something new to do (thats not a dungeon because for some reason people dont like dungeons and neither does anet).

champ.7021:

Thats not the point. Just because its a minority thats speaking out doesnt mean their arguments arent valid or that the general population wouldnt like those ideas. The general population from what i have seen dont care what comes out just that theres something new to do (thats not a dungeon because for some reason people dont like dungeons and neither does anet).

This comment is especially ironic considering the update next week revolves around a dungeon.

I wasn’t aware I said anyones arguments weren’t valid. I just said that by and large the complainers on the forum don’t speak for anywhere near the majority.

But as far as the manifesto and ascended stuff goes I look at it like this. No matter what anet did some one would complain. Just look at the AP rewards for a perfect example of that. Anet literally gave away a bunch of stuff to people for free and people complained about it. So for one person it could be the most mind blowing amazing game ever made but for the next it could be the worst.

See where I’m going with this..? People were going to complain no matter what they did. But at the end of the day they had to do something.

yeah i know about next week’s “dungeon”. All the past ls dungeons seemed boring (never did molten facility but i watched strifes video and i could hear it in his voice how painful it was to go through it). Also they still havent fixed any of the bugs in the paths or revamped encounters.

champ.7021:

yeah i know about next week’s “dungeon”. All the past ls dungeons seemed boring (never did molten facility but i watched strifes video and i could hear it in his voice how painful it was to go through it). Also they still havent fixed any of the bugs in the paths or revamped encounters.

That is something I agree with.

fellyn.5083:

champ.7021:

Thats not the point. Just because its a minority thats speaking out doesnt mean their arguments arent valid or that the general population wouldnt like those ideas. The general population from what i have seen dont care what comes out just that theres something new to do (thats not a dungeon because for some reason people dont like dungeons and neither does anet).

This comment is especially ironic considering the update next week revolves around a dungeon.

I wasn’t aware I said anyones arguments weren’t valid. I just said that by and large the complainers on the forum don’t speak for anywhere near the majority.

But as far as the manifesto and ascended stuff goes I look at it like this. No matter what anet did some one would complain. Just look at the AP rewards for a perfect example of that. Anet literally gave away a bunch of stuff to people for free and people complained about it. So for one person it could be the most mind blowing amazing game ever made but for the next it could be the worst.

See where I’m going with this..? People were going to complain no matter what they did. But at the end of the day they had to do something.

It’s interesting that you seem to know what the majority wants either way. Many people simply do not post on the forums either in the negative or the positive. Game forums (much like democratic governments) do not actually represent the majority of a population, only the majority of the people who participate. This is the reason you see such divisiveness on these forums and also in real life, because many times the truly moderate don’t participate.

Yes, the majority of the MMO population are very casual. They’d don’t post on forums and don’t even socialize with other people. The biggest problem designing content for this type of player is that you have absolutely no idea if they’re going to like the content.

These players could all disappear tomorrow without a trace and the developers would probably never understand the reasons why they left. That’s what happens with developers that don’t talk to their own communities.

fellyn.5083:

alcopaul.2156:

fellyn.5083:

It’s only a vocal minority of people who post on the forum that feel that way. The majority of people are playing the game and are perfectly okay with it..

So what’s the purpose of a forum?

1: Game is great!
A:NET = Thanks for the response, we appreciate it
2: Game sucks!
A:NET = You’re just a vocal minority. Those who enjoy the game don’t go to the forums

Say WAT!

I thought it was a pretty widely known thing that only a small portion of the player base bother with posting on the forums.

Yeah, that’s what they say. They also say the forums were full of people demanding gear grind shortly after launch, which is why we got ascended gear. Funny how that works.

I don’t know, I’ve never seen ANY manifesto, by ANYONE that has been lived up to. Ever.

A manifesto is more than just a statement of intent. It’s a statement of ideals. Did the Communist Manifesto live up to what Karl Marx wrote?

It’s something you strive for, not something you necessarily attain. They started working from this basis that this is what we want to do. This is what we want to accomplish. That’s what a manifesto is.

You don’t necessarily attain it. All these quibbles like a people calling out a fully branching personal storyline. Compared to other MMOs when the manifesto was made, that was accomplished. Unless you’re saying that in WoW your human warrior has a different story than my human warrior.

This whole nickle and diming word for word in a manifesto is not only pointless, but counterproductive.

Ideals don’t always work so well in the real world. Sometimes, you have to compromise to stay in business. Anet felt they had to. If you don’t feel they had to you should invest your millions of dollars and your five years into a game and see how you react when people stop playing it, which was what was happening last November.

It was too early for them to be losing the numbers they were losing BEFORE the advent of ascended gear.

They made a compromise that many hated and many left. But I’m sure in their mind, they believed they saved the game. Because if only those people who left ended up staying, the game wouldn’t have been as successful…or so Anet believes (and they probably have better evidence than we do).

I don’t know how anyone can see this as a casually or easily made decision. Sure they didn’t get to do what they wanted to do. That’s life. There are a lot of times that’s happened to me in life as well.

And as long as it’s your millions of dollars and five years on the line, it’s easy to judge.

Calae.1738:

Yes, the majority of the MMO population are very casual. They’d don’t post on forums and don’t even socialize with other people. The biggest problem designing content for this type of player is that you have absolutely no idea if they’re going to like the content.

These players could all disappear tomorrow without a trace and the developers would probably never understand the reasons why they left. That’s what happens with developers that don’t talk to their own communities.

Kinda yes… and kinda no.

Arena.net DOES know where their players are gravitating. They can see what the players are doing as a general rule. They know from those metrics and logs that [x] number of people did [y] for [z] amount of time.

It of course doesn’t tell them if the players are doing it because [y] is fun or because the players feel they have to do it… or if those players like investing [z]. And that’s where feedback can come in handy. Official forums are but one source of feedback a company can tap into.

Tachenon.5270:

fellyn.5083:

alcopaul.2156:

fellyn.5083:

It’s only a vocal minority of people who post on the forum that feel that way. The majority of people are playing the game and are perfectly okay with it..

So what’s the purpose of a forum?

1: Game is great!
A:NET = Thanks for the response, we appreciate it
2: Game sucks!
A:NET = You’re just a vocal minority. Those who enjoy the game don’t go to the forums

Say WAT!

I thought it was a pretty widely known thing that only a small portion of the player base bother with posting on the forums.

Yeah, that’s what they say. They also say the forums were full of people demanding gear grind shortly after launch, which is why we got ascended gear. Funny how that works.

Fair point. But just because complaints happened to align with a decision that Anet came to doesn’t nessarily mean the complaints on the forum held sway over that decision.

We won’t ever know until Anet tells us. And they won’t.

Vayne.8563:

Did the Communist Manifesto live up to what Karl Marx wrote?

Yes the communist manifesto lived up to what karl marx wrote…because he wrote it lol
im guessing you were trying to say “did communism/communists live up to karl marx’s ideals” the answer is no because his ideology (although the communist manifesto is titled communist) was actually marxism, while communism was more of an oligarchical marxism (in a way or rather a monarchy) and they didnt fully get rid of classes.
Also you shouldnt judge communism solely on SU and other countries. In cuba it actually works quite well although they claim they are socialist. I forget the name of this documentary but oliver stone went to talk to castro and some of the things you see are quite unexpected, in a good way.

champ.7021:

Vayne.8563:

Did the Communist Manifesto live up to what Karl Marx wrote?

Yes the communist manifesto lived up to what karl marx wrote…because he wrote it lol
im guessing you were trying to say “did communism/communists live up to karl marx’s ideals” the answer is no because his ideology (although the communist manifesto is titled communist) was actually marxism, while communism was more of an oligarchical marxism (in a way or rather a monarchy) and they didnt fully get rid of classes.
Also you shouldnt judge communism solely on SU and other countries. In cuba it actually works quite well although they claim they are socialist. I forget the name of this documentary but oliver stone went to talk to castro and some of the things you see are quite unexpected, in a good way.

In Cuba it doesn’t really work quite well, I’ve read quite a bit about Cuba and there are many issues, including their recent push to become more capitilist and relaxing some of their laws. Interesting article about it recently in Time Magazine.

And yes, you phrased it better than I did. Karl Marx wrote something idealistic that can’t exist in the real world. The Anet devs had some issues getting their stuff to work in the real world.

It was three years ago, deal with it.

Yeah ive kind of moved to your side of the argument that we shouldnt keep bringing up the manifesto because thats stupid as kitten. But that doesnt mean we shouldnt ask for less gear grind we should just stop saying Anet lied because if you say that they are less likely to listen and even less likely to change because that would prove they were lying.

The whole communist thing was me nickel and diming

I would go into it more but that would be for another time. I know cuba has problems but i think there are many good aspects to it. I havent looked into it that much recently that documentary was a couple years old, but i think that it showed a much needed perspective of cuba as most American articles and such, although not entirely wrong, usually paint a negative picture of it.