Guild Wars 2

Shen Slayer.3058:

No to OP…I have only kill Tequatl once, and that’s cause I was lucky a few TTS guys were there. No more elitist gameplay, we have dungeons for that.

I’m not sure you understand the meaning of that word.

You should really stop using it.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

Do you guys think that there’s a middle ground between ultra hard and easy?

For example, I think we could clean up some of the issues with the Shatterer and just make it a more engaging experience. So rather than spending the entire fight hiding under his right paw he could, say, turn his head and attack that area? :] It doesn’t have to be hard, just a little more involved.

We tried to put in a few changes here and there when we added the new world boss timers. Reactions varied.

Honestly I felt that Mary was the perfect example of difficulty that satisfies both crowds.

Honestly I felt that Mary was the perfect example of difficulty that satisfies both crowds.

Marionette was fine in parts, but A. they needed to make the stage fights best 3/5 or something to prevent one wiped stage from ruining the whole turn, and B. they needed to scale it better for maps that had low populations, because after a few days it was really hard to get together enough people to hold more than a couple lanes.

Ideally it would have scaled down to the point where if there were even as few as twenty people in the area, they could split up four each and lane spawns would be doable for those groups, and then for the stage battle they would all be dumped onto a single stage and if they cleared it they would pass.

Really, that’s the biggest problem with “hard” content, not that they require any more player skill than most, I think there are bosses that are “harder” than Teq or Wurm, but that they have higher DPS checks and poorer scaling. They require you to max out your map with ONLY people running that content, AND in good gear, AND with the right builds, and in Wurm’s case split into groups of the right sizes.

If the events scaled better, so that even 20-30 players on a map could handle the bosses if they knew what they were doing, and not all of them would need ideal gear or builds, just good gameplay, and the important thing was the tactics involved, not the DPS during the burn phase, then then bosses would be far more palatable.

It’s like those classic Zelda type bosses, the goal is to do that thing that makes them vulnerable, and then give them ONE good whack to slash their life bar and then repeat twice more and they die. With the “mega-bosses,” you do the thing to make them vulnerable, and then burn, but if you have great burn they die in 1-3 phases, if you have weaker than expected DPS then it could take 5-6 burns, maybe even more to DPS him down, and you’re never given that much time so it fails.

The game should not expect you to have more DPS than you have, it should just expect you to use it. Design the burn phases to be inconsequential, they will succeed every time and are just there to have fun wailing on the boss. Maybe have some personal bonus system for if YOU do exceptional damage during them*, but do not hinge the overall success on the DPS of the zerg. Instead base the success of the overall mission on how the players coordinate during the “weakening” phase.

*By this I mean that if the expected average damage dealt during the burn phase is like 10,000 points per player, then after the fight is over maybe you’d come out of it with some small junk loot for each 1000 damage you deal above that, while players who don’t get that high get none of this small bonus stuff, but still get the chest and all that).

Kohlteth.3715:

Like where are all the lvl 70-80 ( 85 +) World bosses that should have been put in Orr ?

Or maybe one in Dry Top ?

Why are the biggest and best which most lvl 80’s fight, all in lvl 50 – 70 zones ?

oh wait, then again, why are many of them in STARTER zones ??

Something needs doing to let the lower levels fight the lower level bosses and the higher 70-80’s fight level appropriate bosses as the Downscale does not work, we all know that and lower levels hardly get to “tag” the bosses and certainly dont have the raw dps output needed to get anything worthwhile from bosses in their zone range !!

There are bosses in Orr – temples events are like that. I didn’t do them for some time but last time they weren’t as easy but still had issues with blobs of people. At least there wasn’t any safe spot.

Low level events should be relatively easy-medium to finish. They should not be as hard as Teq. Like I said – removing bugs and safe spots would help a lot. Making some things more engaging (like making Jormag cannons worth something or force players to have some reason to kill monsters on the ledges) would probably fix even more issues.
Like this event with pirates and galeon – it is well designed. It has some backstory, chains and you know what and why you’re doing. But again – scaling makes it boring – gate harder to break then each dragon.

So most problems are with scaling (taging too) and safe spots.

You must all remember that things that Devs could do shouldn’t force them to some extreme work because we will never see it happen. That’s why they should focus on one little step at a time. For example – let’s make one event fixed (this way or another) and see what it will change in overall gameplay.

No! Wait! I’ve got it! If we remember, Shatty is just a big chicken!

Let’s take it to the air, people.

:D

It would be cool to have another phase to the dragon where he takes off and flies around dropping crystal bombs or just crystals that spawn numerous mobs if not destroyed in time and then the players have to use siege weapons to shoot at its wings every time it passes to bring him back down. Have the dragon actually swoop in and out, hiding in the clouds as he swoops back out. Maybe allow 4 seconds of him being exposed every time he makes a pass before he takes off into the clouds again.

Shivan.9438:

Balsa.3951:

I also would be ok with a dragon which you can tank

Not hating on your idea, but tanking a dragon is silly. Look at what a dragon can do and somehow a lone mortal being is supposed to withstand claw attacks, breath weapon attacks from a being 100 times it’s size and strength along with a battery of magic attacks?

That’s like stopping a tank with a can of tuna. I believe it was Thackery that said entire nations couldn’t stop a dragon. Inb4 “but a 5 man dungeon party can”

I know it’s silly too and I don’t think it should be done that way. Teq, Shatterer and Claw are Lt’s of of the dragons themselves and it takes a big group to down them so how can 5 bring down the bigger one? Just.. silly.

ofc not one guy tank alone but lets say a line of players who need absorb dmg and switch with a second line when they feel overwhelmed …perhaps

Honestly, while it was fun I felt like the design of the marionette fight felt a little too contrived. The five paths in part felt pretty natural, but the whole “force everyone to split up by using magical teleporters” didn’t feel natural, ditto for the breachmaker. You could have the same effect be having everyone rush the boss during those phases and then destroying hcunks of a path or somesuch to split them up in stead, and the fight would feel more natural and less obviously “this is a scripted encounter with design goals” I guess it goes back to my previous post. Big bosses should destroy more things during big fights and move around a lot more to showcase their frightening destructive power. When they sit in one place the way they do now they just feel like less intelligent versions of normal mobs with a bigger HP pool rather than towering monstrosities that must be destroyed for the good of tyria.

I haven’t read the entire thread, however I would like to point out that anet has successfully developed tiers of bosses. Triple Trouble, needs a highly organised, well equipped team to complete. Teams like TTS successfully do it daily. However, it is marginally beyond the ability of pug maps to complete. I think this is perfect as the “hardest” open world content around.

Next tier is Tequatl. This is doable by marginally organised pug maps, assuming you have the numbers to complete it. Initial strategies required learning but once down, it is easy. Megaservers made this very possible (I regularly get a taxi into a map that succeeds right up to spawn, and occasionally a couple of minutes after spawn).

Karka Queen. This is simply a zerg fest, and imo has its rewards too high. The champion that spawns as one of the events that needs to be completed is harder then the queen herself. Jormag is harder.

The rest are doable with varying levels of difficulty based on players on them, but most of them are how many hits can I get in whilst AFK. And that is fine, and has a purpose.

What I would suggest is have 4 uber boss levels. 1 being Jormag (as is, maybe build some turrets to heat areas (similar to the anti poison turrets) and increase the pain from the icy debuff). 2 being a reworked shatterer, where you need to know the strategy but you don’t really need a full map. Basically inbetween Jormag and Tequatl. Then 3 – Teq, 4 – Wurm.

Tone down the champion in the karka queen event and remove it from the uber boss rotation. Considering it dies faster then Jormag and gives more rewards, is kind of ridiculous. Or give it more of a strategy other then zerg zerg zerg.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

Thread explosion! Thanks for all the (rapid) responses. There seems to be a fairly consistent feeling that yes, these fights can be more engaging without becoming as difficult as the jungle wurm.

I like some of the ideas being presented, feel free to keep the discussion going. It’s also helpful to hear not only what’s working but why it’s working for you.

On the topic of using siege weapons as a role mechanic in these fights, is that something we want to see more of? I often worry that siege weapons can be just as boring as standing in the safe corner pressing the same attack. Do you feel that they can also cause some contention between players?

Sorry, I’m late to this discussion so I apologize if these suggestions have already been offered.

I personally like siege weapons as a role mechanic. One of the reasons I enjoy the Teq fight so much is that there are so many jobs to be had. Turrets, Defense, Zerg, Response Team.

It might be cool to add some mechanics to The Shatterer that already exist. For example, he already summons those huge crystals that explode. Perhaps a mechanic where he only spawns those on one side of him, and you have to detonate a massive bomb or shoot him with some specific turrets on one side to knock him into his own crystals.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

Do you guys think that there’s a middle ground between ultra hard and easy?

For example, I think we could clean up some of the issues with the Shatterer and just make it a more engaging experience. So rather than spending the entire fight hiding under his right paw he could, say, turn his head and attack that area? :] It doesn’t have to be hard, just a little more involved.

We tried to put in a few changes here and there when we added the new world boss timers. Reactions varied.

Any news concerning a rewamp of the existing world bosses with HoT? :-)

If I were a giant dragon like that, I’d do a few more obvious things, like try to step on all these ants biting at my toes.

I know that factors of balancing in the meta-context must be considered, ala ‘Can melee contribute in this fight as well as ranged?’ and other similar questions, but when I look at things like the claw of Jormag and how we all converge on its left paw when the icewall goes down, I can’t help but think ‘And here is where we should all die. It should stomp us to paste and breath straight down on us all. We should not be getting close to something this big, deadly and agile…ever.’

But that’s a bit too realistic and would lend to conclusions that things like the Zhaitan fight (which actually makes a great deal of sense as its arranged even if many seem not to find it as viscerally compelling as had been hoped after) are how it should be, and I’m pretty sure not many would like that at all.

I like most of how the Tequatl fight goes, with different things going on all at once and having to shoot the big, stinky bugger out of the air so we can bring him within our ant-bite reach for a bit.

If I had a wish upon it, it’d probably be that such fights go more like the Teq fight, with different ‘teams’ having to be doing different things all at once to make a giant dragon be stuck in something for a bit, or very briefly weighted down by something or otherwise so we can beat on its head and neck or somesuch.

Beating a dragon to death by ant-biting its foot seems a bit odd, in any case. Animate it differently, make dragons being shot out of the air land prone and be stunned for a while or what have you – minor differences could get us away from this tendency to have us somehow kill giant dragons by slowly murderizing their hand that they’re apparently too stupid to crush us with.

Would be nice if they made it somehow that we had to look up. It was months before I realised that William actually had a body, head and wings. It begs the question “How dumb are the GW2 dragons?” they have wings but yet they land and let the little ants bite their toes till they die. Maybe if Anet could incorporate a reason for the dragons landing while we kill their feet like…..not my job.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

Do you guys think that there’s a middle ground between ultra hard and easy?

For example, I think we could clean up some of the issues with the Shatterer and just make it a more engaging experience. So rather than spending the entire fight hiding under his right paw he could, say, turn his head and attack that area? :] It doesn’t have to be hard, just a little more involved.

We tried to put in a few changes here and there when we added the new world boss timers. Reactions varied.

I would like a need for..the..there’s cannons, there isn’t there? I haven’t done shatterer in awhile…but those cannons are never used?

adding something like teq..that stacks unless those cannons are used, would be cool.

Like shatterer will stomp the ground..throwing everyone into the air, if he’s allowed to buff up ..idk..5 or 10 stacks of whatever.

That would add something extra..but not really more difficult.

__
Would also be cool, if he attacked at his side once and awhile. Get people to mive aorund a little

Taygus.4571:

I would like a need for..the..there’s cannons, there isn’t there? I haven’t done shatterer in awhile…but those cannons are never used?

The cannons are never used, because they are bugged and cannot be used (any shot fired pushes you off the cannon, and that makes the shot miss). It is a bug that is here from the very beginning of the game, by the way.

Shen Slayer.3058:

Atin.1237:

I fail to see how Dungeons are Elitist gameplay? If they are then it was the community that made it that way. As the most dungeons are still quite casual and do not require very much planning or organizing.

You’re right, it’s the community that made it Elitist, but also Anet’s fault too. They weakened all the other profession except Warrior and Ele, so in a sense, they created the hostility when other class try to join a pug.

Lol, warrior was #5 for dps back when they were considered good. Now warrior’s bring banners and poor dps. Ignorance is what makes people believe wars are the end all be all for pve. You invite a war for banners these days, other classes do the dps part better.

Shatterer could be much more fun, just remember people don’t enjoy fighting a giant hp pool when you make the changes. Focus on players utilizing tools to open opportunities to attack. Also make the core mechanics anti troll, I remember when people would grab turrents in Teq and do nothing. The success shouldn’t hinge on the success of any one small group or single person. VW is a good example, where even if one group fails it can still be won. Teq is a poor example where one person on a turret can impact the entire fight or one group failing a battery can spell doom for the map.

If you want to make ultra difficult content then please move it to a raid instance, so people who want to do it don’t have to fight the server system, other players, and can organize easier with their guilds and without relying on boss timers. You can even have an easier open world version with the same drops, only much lower percentage. Then have the hard mode raid nearby (instanced and available once a day or week anytime) that requires more coordination, but is more rewarding.

Tequatl is hardly ultra hard. He is basically on farm status. Even on pug overflows which start 5min before spawn its a successful kill nowadays.

Hylgeriak.8250:

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

Do you guys think that there’s a middle ground between ultra hard and easy?

For example, I think we could clean up some of the issues with the Shatterer and just make it a more engaging experience. So rather than spending the entire fight hiding under his right paw he could, say, turn his head and attack that area? :] It doesn’t have to be hard, just a little more involved.

We tried to put in a few changes here and there when we added the new world boss timers. Reactions varied.

Any news concerning a rewamp of the existing world bosses with HoT? :-)

Well in an interview with Colin Johanson, which I can’t remember if it was Richie or Aurora or someone else that asked the specific question if there will be any revamp to the old bosses of Tyria, he said that there are no current plans on it because they feel that going back on old content doesn’t really progress the game, and that players were also interested in new world bosses, so they rather stick to developing new content instead.

I for one want to see new content, and new world bosses with unique mechanics, BUT for god sake, the old world bosses in this game are just painfully bad, they are a joke right now… excluding Teq and TT.

They should at least give us one revamped old world boss per year, I’ll take that if nothing else.

Malediktus.3740:

Tequatl is hardly ultra hard. He is basically on farm status. Even on pug overflows which start 5min before spawn its a successful kill nowadays.

That just means a lot of people have done Teq so often that many of us are super-familiar with how to do it properly, not that the Teq fight is easy.

I’d wager that a bunch of people that’ve never done it before and had no guidance from experienced heads would faceplant so kitten a fight like that it’d be comical to watch, and they’d keep faceplanting until they figured out both what needed to be organized for and how to do that.

I’m not gonna go out on a limb here and say that Teq is ultra-hard, but lets not be arrogant snots either – Teq’s a well designed challenge, and its not Anet’s fault that we get good at things eventually, some sooner, some later.

I still see Triple Trouble fail a lot just for general lack of people other than at specific times of day. Ho hum. Not everything is a cake walk for everybody, turns out.

Tequatl is easy. If it would be hard the whole map would have to give its best. What I am seeing is 20 people afking at tequatl, most do not use any bufffood and suboptimal gear and builds. Judging at the amount of people who get downed a lot of people cant even dodge.
A hard encounter would need all people do its best, use optimal builds and gear and bufffood. Even triple trouble is not hard, just a lot of logistics to organize 3 zergs.

Tequatl was stealthily nerfed. The hardest thing about Triple Trouble is to get in that organized map.
Edit: on topic
Shatterer should be easily to be revamped, on a small scale, just to remove that safe spot, as was done in the Claw of Jormag event.( I still wonder why Pact Researcher Darrin keeps saying “Use the terrain to our advantage!” Nobody told him yet that there is no safe spot ?)

JackDaniels.1697:

Hylgeriak.8250:

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

Do you guys think that there’s a middle ground between ultra hard and easy?

For example, I think we could clean up some of the issues with the Shatterer and just make it a more engaging experience. So rather than spending the entire fight hiding under his right paw he could, say, turn his head and attack that area? :] It doesn’t have to be hard, just a little more involved.

We tried to put in a few changes here and there when we added the new world boss timers. Reactions varied.

Any news concerning a rewamp of the existing world bosses with HoT? :-)

Well in an interview with Colin Johanson, which I can’t remember if it was Richie or Aurora or someone else that asked the specific question if there will be any revamp to the old bosses of Tyria, he said that there are no current plans on it because they feel that going back on old content doesn’t really progress the game, and that players were also interested in new world bosses, so they rather stick to developing new content instead.

I for one want to see new content, and new world bosses with unique mechanics, BUT for god sake, the old world bosses in this game are just painfully bad, they are a joke right now… excluding Teq and TT.

They should at least give us one revamped old world boss per year, I’ll take that if nothing else.

If that’s really what Colin said, it would go against the Living World concept as its core level. New content is def a priority, but revamping old content in line with this is essential for the concept to fully bear out.

I think Shatterer is the one that needs the most work and I don’t see it happening until we start on the road to Kralkatorrik. I don’t even bother going to it anymore, which is sad because the artwork involved in that boss is stunning!

Taygus.4571:

Would also be cool, if he attacked at his side once and awhile. Get people to mive aorund a little

At the moment it doesn’t matter if Shatterer will attack to the side, because months after I first posted about it in this thread, he’s still susceptible to Blind. Shatterer could have a 5000 range instant kill attack, and it wouldn’t matter because a single thief using Black Powder on his foot guarantees it would whiff on everyone.

This was fixed with the Great Jungle Wurm in Caledon with the boss revamp, and sometime quietly over the last few months it was also fixed for Golem Mark II which is now likewise immune to Blind. Shatterer is still not so fortunate.

Randulf.7614:

JackDaniels.1697:

Hylgeriak.8250:

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

Do you guys think that there’s a middle ground between ultra hard and easy?

For example, I think we could clean up some of the issues with the Shatterer and just make it a more engaging experience. So rather than spending the entire fight hiding under his right paw he could, say, turn his head and attack that area? :] It doesn’t have to be hard, just a little more involved.

We tried to put in a few changes here and there when we added the new world boss timers. Reactions varied.

Any news concerning a rewamp of the existing world bosses with HoT? :-)

Well in an interview with Colin Johanson, which I can’t remember if it was Richie or Aurora or someone else that asked the specific question if there will be any revamp to the old bosses of Tyria, he said that there are no current plans on it because they feel that going back on old content doesn’t really progress the game, and that players were also interested in new world bosses, so they rather stick to developing new content instead.

I for one want to see new content, and new world bosses with unique mechanics, BUT for god sake, the old world bosses in this game are just painfully bad, they are a joke right now… excluding Teq and TT.

They should at least give us one revamped old world boss per year, I’ll take that if nothing else.

If that’s really what Colin said, it would go against the Living World concept as its core level. New content is def a priority, but revamping old content in line with this is essential for the concept to fully bear out.

I think Shatterer is the one that needs the most work and I don’t see it happening until we start on the road to Kralkatorrik. I don’t even bother going to it anymore, which is sad because the artwork involved in that boss is stunning!

Ahh it was Aurora Peachy who asked him that question. Around 12 minutes she asks him about it.