(edited by Emmet.2943)
The irony in the criticism against RNG...
It’s not a case of them lacking proof so much as a case of psychological projection. In trying to communicate their own personal feelings, they describe other people as having those thoughts and feelings when truly it’s just their personal opinion. This is a communication problem. They either don’t realize it or they are assuming that their opinion is the majority perhaps because their friends and immediate peers share the opinion and that’s all the empirical evidence they bothered to gather. Yes, it’s a misconception, but asking them to prove their claims isn’t going to teach them this lesson so much as frustrate them, which will in turn predispose them to disagree with you out of spite and create further rifts in communication.
In other words, it’s a message board on the internet.
Over the weekend on Lion’s Arch there were a bunch of people kittening about how those wings are pointless since everyone has them.
“Why reward something that is so common”
I pointed out that funny enough, that is something that RNG can solve. RNG = not everyone will get the item and you maintain exclusivity.
Of course, people continued to kitten
The trick is to put it in enough, but also not to much and in differed ways but also keep it in so people can always get it. The wings.. well everybody does the achivements so they all have the wings. The skins are RNG in a bad way and temporary so thats where other people are complaining about. Now make same rare skin drop rarely (that is also a form of RNG) in a dungeon or make a mini drop rarely from a mob, or make a recipe drop rarely and with that recipe you can make a skin or a mini (or in the future a mount). At the same time you also do it less rare.
Those people really really interested in that skin / mini / recipe will farm it and be able to get it but other won’t.. there you go everybody happy and still rare.
Now people who don’t want it might get it others spend many gold to get it but don’t get it and those wings.. well indeed everybody has those.
Lol, most complains I here and the reason that people stop playing GW2 all comes down to the gem-store focus. The gold-driven system and the RNG has a lot to do with that.
How do you get anything in this game? Being lucky, farming gold (there are like 3 ways to do that) or buy money. Well, not a small part of the player base but a huge part does not like that. Why where so many people so enthusiastic about SAB and MF?
Really? How do you know that a huge part do not like this? Where is your statistical evidence?
Almost nobody likes to just farm for gold, or buy gems to get the stuff you need. Most people don’t like that they want multiple ways playing the game, getting that. Doing dungeons, doing JP’s, doing WvW or killing mobs but not farming for gold. using real money to buy it…. And then still having a big change of not getting it.
Again, where is your proof of this?
If you really think it’s just a small part of the people I can ensure you you are wrong. But we both don’t have the numbers to proof it.
How can you assure me that? Eurogamer wrote an article on this very thing. The article used Assassin’s Creed for their statistical evidence. They said that the differences in opinions of very vocal forum posters and the thousands of other people playing were very different when they took surveys and polls. All I had to do to find this information was to do some very simple Google searches.
It is human nature for those not liking something to complain about it while those who are content or even like something will not say anything. And while I do not have actual numbers for this, I know from looking at the high number of people playing on many servers, that there are many more people playing the game than there are of those posting complaints about it in the forums. There are hundreds of posters in all of the forums commenting on all manner of subjects. There are thousands and thousands of people playing in game. They are not all posting on the forums, so yes, forum posters are in the minority. This isn’t just my guessing, there are many articles out there about internet forums compared to actual participants.
I just do not understand how you can claim these things with no proof. I would be more than happy to look into anything you had to prove what you say. I would even back you up if you had something solid to show me. Until then, I go with what I have read and that is that those who complain about anything on internet forums are usually in the minority because it is the nature of people with complaints to be vocal while those content are not.
“Really? How do you know that a huge part do not like this? Where is your statistical evidence?” Like I said “most complains I here”. I here it in the guild, I am active on some fan-forums and then you can also have a look at these forums. The number of RNG (= gem-store focus) should start ringing a bell. No statistics.
“Again, where is your proof of this?” Same as before /\ If they did not mind farming gold the complains would be there because in the end the gold buys you you what you need. Another indication is how many people talk positive about MF and SAB.. yeah also no statistics about that but everybody who opens his eyes can see that people are overall very positive about MF and SAB and very negative about the RNG / gold-driven system.
“How can you assure me that?” By opening your eyes.. And about the very vocal people.. Most people in the guild and on those fan-forums don’t post here. That are not the vocal people but many of them have similar reacts.
“It is human nature for those not liking something to complain about it while those who are content or even like something will not say anything.” But if you see many complains about the same things you might want to listen.
“I just do not understand how you can claim these things with no proof.” I claim that I hear it.. you want proof. Well can’t show you the logs of guild-chat and TeamSpeak but like I said before you can have a look on forum and I could also give you the links of the fan-forums but they are not English so you probably can’t read them.
You seem to be sure it’s just a small number.. so can you proof that to me then?
You’re saying you’d rather have better content less often…so would I…but not at the expense of the overall game.
The funny thing is that I think that the many patches with lower quality content in stead of less patches with better content (and an expansion on the way) are bad for the game.
Lol, most complains I here and the reason that people stop playing GW2 all comes down to the gem-store focus. The gold-driven system and the RNG has a lot to do with that.
How do you get anything in this game? Being lucky, farming gold (there are like 3 ways to do that) or buy money. Well, not a small part of the player base but a huge part does not like that. Why where so many people so enthusiastic about SAB and MF?
Really? How do you know that a huge part do not like this? Where is your statistical evidence?
Almost nobody likes to just farm for gold, or buy gems to get the stuff you need. Most people don’t like that they want multiple ways playing the game, getting that. Doing dungeons, doing JP’s, doing WvW or killing mobs but not farming for gold. using real money to buy it…. And then still having a big change of not getting it.
Again, where is your proof of this?
If you really think it’s just a small part of the people I can ensure you you are wrong. But we both don’t have the numbers to proof it.
How can you assure me that? Eurogamer wrote an article on this very thing. The article used Assassin’s Creed for their statistical evidence. They said that the differences in opinions of very vocal forum posters and the thousands of other people playing were very different when they took surveys and polls. All I had to do to find this information was to do some very simple Google searches.
It is human nature for those not liking something to complain about it while those who are content or even like something will not say anything. And while I do not have actual numbers for this, I know from looking at the high number of people playing on many servers, that there are many more people playing the game than there are of those posting complaints about it in the forums. There are hundreds of posters in all of the forums commenting on all manner of subjects. There are thousands and thousands of people playing in game. They are not all posting on the forums, so yes, forum posters are in the minority. This isn’t just my guessing, there are many articles out there about internet forums compared to actual participants.
I just do not understand how you can claim these things with no proof. I would be more than happy to look into anything you had to prove what you say. I would even back you up if you had something solid to show me. Until then, I go with what I have read and that is that those who complain about anything on internet forums are usually in the minority because it is the nature of people with complaints to be vocal while those content are not.
It’s not a case of them lacking proof so much as a case of psychological projection. In trying to communicate their own personal feelings, they describe other people as having those thoughts and feelings when truly it’s just their personal opinion. This is a communication problem. They either don’t realize it or they are assuming that their opinion is the majority perhaps because their friends and immediate peers share the opinion and that’s all the empirical evidence they bothered to gather. Yes, it’s a misconception, but asking them to prove their claims isn’t going to teach them this lesson so much as frustrate them, which will in turn predispose them to disagree with you out of spite and create further rifts in communication.
Haha lol, being the shrink here?
But tell me.. who says that not I but you are one of those persons? And in this case jheryn is one of your peers that share the opinion?
Yeah I indeed got it from people I talk with or see on other forums. I do not know it from everybody but really.. Have a look at this forum and you see how many people are complaining about it.
The only reason I asked this guy to prove it is because he told me that I didn’t have any numbers to prove what I said. So I just posed the question back.
I really like that people are passionate about their positions. It is good to want what you want. I just don’t like the ‘everyone thinks like I do’ mentality. I hate being lumped into groups like that. Not that it will change this happening, but I always feel the need to let people know I do not share their opinions when I disagree.
No I said `If you really think it’s just a small part of the people I can ensure you you are wrong. But we both don’t have the numbers to proof it.`
You see WE! That is you and me. I said myself I would not be able to proof it and I said you would not be able to proof your statement. After that you started to ask me to proof it. A little bid strange but oke.
You’re saying you’d rather have better content less often…so would I…but not at the expense of the overall game.
The funny thing is that I think that the many patches with lower quality content in stead of less patches with better content (and an expansion on the way) are bad for the game.
Except that a lot of people do like the content, and that’s where your theory falls down. Those that don’t like it don’t HAVE to do it, those that like it can do it. It’s giving something for the achievement hounds to bash their head against.
I can almost guarantee you, not giving people something to DO will lose more people than giving them something meaningless to do.
I can almost guarantee you, not giving people something to DO will lose more people than giving them something meaningless to do.
He is saying, give people something better to do on a slower time table.
I am a tank at heart.
Sometimes I wonder what I’m doing here…
Sometimes I wonder what I’m doing here…
“Really? How do you know that a huge part do not like this? Where is your statistical evidence?” Like I said “most complains I here”. I here it in the guild, I am active on some fan-forums and then you can also have a look at these forums. The number of RNG (= gem-store focus) should start ringing a bell. No statistics.
Actually I didn’t say anything about the line where you said “most complaints you hear”, I was referring the the line “Well, not a small part of the player base but a huge part does not like that.” My biggest point that people with complaints and dislikes for content are the one who are vocal about it. People who do not care, or are content, or like it do not post much at all. This is true for all forums not just this one. You said ‘a huge part’. I believe it may be a huge part of what you listen to, but it certainly is not for me.
yeah also no statistics about that but everybody who opens his eyes can see that people are overall very positive about MF and SAB and very negative about the RNG / gold-driven system.
I believe that people you talk to probably are negative about RNG. And it is perfectly fine that you do not like it. However, you can in no way claim these things for ‘people overall’. You have nothing to back that up with other than posts in forums. The biggest majority of my two guilds, one small and one very huge, have no problem with RNG. Some do not like it, but most in both of these guilds do not care or are good with it. My guild members talk on a regular basis and the topic comes up. So it is not me guessing about their likes and dislikes. What I hear and what I have my eyes open to is not the same as you. So, again, I don’t understand how you can say ‘players overall’.
“How can you assure me that?” By opening your eyes.. And about the very vocal people.. Most people in the guild and on those fan-forums don’t post here. That are not the vocal people but many of them have similar reacts.
I have my eyes wide open, and my answer to this is in my both replies above. The very vocal people are a small number of the people actually playing the game. In this forum and in many others.
You seem to be sure it’s just a small number.. so can you proof that to me then?
I am certain that the people you talk with indeed hate RNG and some of the things you speak of. However, you and the people you speak with are just a small percentage of the people who play the games. I didn’t say that a small amount hate RNG, I just said that you shouldn’t claim that a huge amount of the player base hates it when you cannot speak for a huge amount of the player base. All you can speak for is the ones you hear. Your words are above, sir. You say ‘huge parts of the player base’ and ‘most people’ several times.
I think it is great when you reference those you talk to and those you chat with, but those people, just like the ones I talk to are not the majority of all players. After reading several articles that I simply googed, I now know that my complaints, just like yours are probably in the minority. So I do not claim to ‘know’ what the majority thinks. I just know that forum posters with complaints are seldom the majority.
I can almost guarantee you, not giving people something to DO will lose more people than giving them something meaningless to do.
He is saying, give people something better to do on a slower time table.
That’s what I’ve been saying. If they redo the rewards properly and switch to a more permanent system of adding content that didn’t involve dungeons, they’d see the game and the world fill up properly. I’m not really sure what’s going on to delay this (other then the standard testing to weed out any exploits) but it just seems to be it’s taking an enormous amount of time to get this situated.
I like others tho would rather they go thru fix all of the problems with combat in PVE including CC support and condition damage and pet resistance to AOEs and AI functions, go thru correct the rewards system (which they are working on granted), go back and correct the nerfs to the three weakest classes they put into the game to balance PVP which in turn broke many aspects of PVE, update the UI to include a more modern expected set of features found in most mmos, and then start working on content for the game in a permanent sense. I think most would agree, there’s plenty of older content to hold us all over for a month while they make a kitchen sink update like this we’d be patient enough while they told us when they’d have this update wouldn’t you think?
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
“Really? How do you know that a huge part do not like this? Where is your statistical evidence?” Like I said “most complains I here”. I here it in the guild, I am active on some fan-forums and then you can also have a look at these forums. The number of RNG (= gem-store focus) should start ringing a bell. No statistics.
Actually I didn’t say anything about the line where you said “most complaints you hear”, I was referring the the line “Well, not a small part of the player base but a huge part does not like that.” My biggest point that people with complaints and dislikes for content are the one who are vocal about it. People who do not care, or are content, or like it do not post much at all. This is true for all forums not just this one. You said ‘a huge part’. I believe it may be a huge part of what you listen to, but it certainly is not for me.
yeah also no statistics about that but everybody who opens his eyes can see that people are overall very positive about MF and SAB and very negative about the RNG / gold-driven system.
I believe that people you talk to probably are negative about RNG. And it is perfectly fine that you do not like it. However, you can in no way claim these things for ‘people overall’. You have nothing to back that up with other than posts in forums. The biggest majority of my two guilds, one small and one very huge, have no problem with RNG. Some do not like it, but most in both of these guilds do not care or are good with it. My guild members talk on a regular basis and the topic comes up. So it is not me guessing about their likes and dislikes. What I hear and what I have my eyes open to is not the same as you. So, again, I don’t understand how you can say ‘players overall’.
“How can you assure me that?” By opening your eyes.. And about the very vocal people.. Most people in the guild and on those fan-forums don’t post here. That are not the vocal people but many of them have similar reacts.
I have my eyes wide open, and my answer to this is in my both replies above. The very vocal people are a small number of the people actually playing the game. In this forum and in many others.
You seem to be sure it’s just a small number.. so can you proof that to me then?
I am certain that the people you talk with indeed hate RNG and some of the things you speak of. However, you and the people you speak with are just a small percentage of the people who play the games. I didn’t say that a small amount hate RNG, I just said that you shouldn’t claim that a huge amount of the player base hates it when you cannot speak for a huge amount of the player base. All you can speak for is the ones you hear. Your words are above, sir. You say ‘huge parts of the player base’ and ‘most people’ several times.
I think it is great when you reference those you talk to and those you chat with, but those people, just like the ones I talk to are not the majority of all players. After reading several articles that I simply googed, I now know that my complaints, just like yours are probably in the minority. So I do not claim to ‘know’ what the majority thinks. I just know that forum posters with complaints are seldom the majority.
Well I hope you are right and that somehow I only speak to those people, only see those post (even tho on those fan-forums people are not just to complain) and the reality is differed but in all honesty I do not think you are.
“but to come and complain about something as if they’re entitled to it, in that spot, just because it was there before is something I will never understand.”
It’s rather simple .. people don’t like change that affects them negatively. Say you’ve been working at the same job for some time at a certain salary. One day your boss decides to make cuts (including your salary) due to hard economic times. You may understand where your boss is coming from, but you will probably not be happy about the change. You might even complain about how it will be harder to pay for things.
I think the word “entitled” is thrown around a lot on forums as a put-down. At least that’s how it comes across to me. I don’t care for the way RNG is implemented in this game. I don’t care about farming. But everyone has a right to come on forums and express their opinion without condescension or being made to feel that their “opinion” is wrong. That would be an oxymoron.
(edited by Rosen Myst.7641)
I think the word “entitled” is thrown around a lot on forums as a put-down. At least that’s how it comes across to me. I don’t care for the way RNG is implemented in this game. I don’t care about farming. But everyone has a right to come on forums and express their opinion without condescention or being made to feel that their “opinion” is wrong. That would be an oxymoron.
I agree with you 100%. The problem is, that many time people don’t just express their opinions, they try and make it sound as if everyone thinks the same way they do. Which also is not right.
I am one of those people who actually likes the RNG. I think it is fun. But when you say that you just get attacked. As you just said, I should be able to say that I like it and even that I don’t agree with other people and not get attacked for it. I don’t claim that everyone feels like I do. I don’t speak for the rest of the players playing. Still you get raked over the coals for having a different opinion. Eventually you start retaliating. Is this good? No. Is it natural. Perhaps. Either way, if people would just log in, voice their opinions while not making assumptions and grouping everyone into their opinions, and let everyone have their say, it would be good. It just doesn’t happen.
As far as the “entitlement” issue. It is my opinion that many people think they should have everything that everyone else in the game has. They feel entitled to things. I personally don’t feel this way, but many seem to. I don’t think it is said as an insult as much as it is said as a belief others notice in other people.
But I like your post. It was nice and truthful. I appreciate what you had to say and I agree with it. Except for the RNG part. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
Funnel? I’m not feeling forced to buy anything. If ANet is designing the game to entice spending, then they’re doing a better job of it than any sub game.
Good for you, doesn’t change the fact that there are clear mechanisms designed to steer average players towards using gems for gold.
I’m not spending another dime to rent a game from a developer whose only motivation is to provide gated content and mechanics designed to slow down gameplay so I pay longer.
The irony of this comment is that GW 2 also has ‘features’ that do exactly this.
Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Funnel? I’m not feeling forced to buy anything. If ANet is designing the game to entice spending, then they’re doing a better job of it than any sub game.
Good for you, doesn’t change the fact that there are clear mechanisms designed to steer average players towards using gems for gold.
Steer, as in offer the option? OK. Steer, as in force? No.
I’m not spending another dime to rent a game from a developer whose only motivation is to provide gated content and mechanics designed to slow down gameplay so I pay longer.
The irony of this comment is that GW 2 also has ‘features’ that do exactly this.
There’s a big difference — I’m not paying unless I choose to.
@Devata
I see your very passionate about what you post. But let me post something along the same lines.
I am very active on fan forums and on here. I myself don’t mind the RNG, I kinda like it this way. But I am also in two guilds. One is a large guild and one is a medium size guild. Most of the players I play with hate the SAB. Not one of really liked it after going through it once. You made comments talking about the people you talk to and ont he forums your on and everything I can do the same thing.
We will never have numbers so show either side of the argument. I get tired of reading post on here and other forums that talk about “we”, “us”, “all”. You don’t speak for anyone but yourself. That is what jheryn was trying to get across. Just like I only speak for myself. I know how my friends in game feel, but I can’t come on any forum and speak for them, I can only speak for myself, just as you can only speak for yourself.
There are agruments on both sides of the fence for RNG, for Temp Content, for most anything that gets talked about on the forums. The best thing we can do is have civil discussions about it, that way ANET can look at everything and try to make a good observation about how to make a change or to leave it the way it is.
Hjorje
______________________________________
Lead, Follow, or get the hell out of my way.
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Lead, Follow, or get the hell out of my way.
I can almost guarantee you, not giving people something to DO will lose more people than giving them something meaningless to do.
He is saying, give people something better to do on a slower time table.
I know what he’s saying. I’m saying to make GOOD content takes long enough where there won’t be anyone left to do it by the time it comes out.
They need to do the same thing Rift did. String people along with busy work until the good stuff comes out.
Edit: It should probably be pointed out too that some people’s awesome content means less than nothing to something else. I love the Fractals. I think they’re a lot of fun (though I don’t grind them). There are other people in my guild who prefer the living story to fractals.
Some people like this kind of stuff.
(edited by Vayne.8563)