Guild Wars 2

Seera.5916:

1. But not to the degree of a trinity. That’s what I mean by specialization. Specialization to the point where you need others to fill other specific things. Where you have to sit and wait for a healer to have a chance at doing something. And that’s the only way changing gear and traits alone will affect the meta to allow for a variety given the current AI. And how much variety that would have is questionable. Certain classes would likely be able to fill certain roles better.

I get that there’s already some specialization given dungeon LFG’s looking for specific classes. As they can do specific things that other classes can’t. Like Ele’s bring the FGS, LH, and IB. But if you don’t get an Ele, you won’t be unable to complete the dungeon. It just won’t be as fast if it’s a dungeon that benefits from one or more of those.

And if the specialization goes the way of the trinity then the manifesto is broken yet again. Because I’d have to wait for others with a specific build to do content. And wasn’t that something this game was not supposed to have? Long waits to play the game while you waited for someone with the right build to show up.

I don’t see how the AI of this game will be anything but DPS is king with how it currently is and that’s not a wide variety of builds. So the changes to gear and stats would have to be to such a degree that it would be like having a trinity to increase variety of builds because there would be a wider variety of roles that need to be filled.

The way to change the meta is to allow for variety (which is what the OP wants), is for the AI to change. If fights are made longer due to the changed mechanics from the AI, then condi builds become more viable. Because condi damage is over time. If fights are made longer, then support builds become more viable because they give boons and remove conditions in order to speed up the fight. But no one build becomes required.

You keep on saying that specialization leads to a trinity, but that isn’t necessarily true. It’s all about the implementation and the design of the encounters that determine that. All specialization would guarantee is that you would be better at a specific role if you invest into it than other roles.

Look at PvP for instance. Specialization is very prevalent in PvP, significantly more so than in PvE. However, there are successful teams that go full roamers and successful teams that go full bunkers. If what you claimed were true, this wouldn’t be the case. These teams are successful because they make full use of the advantages of their roles.

Different roles require different tactics. You are assuming that if this change were implemented, people would still be approaching dungeons the same way they currently do. They wouldn’t, plain and simple. Teams that have a lot of defensive options would be able to grab mobs, aggro them into a corner, and blast them down while protecting the team with skills. Teams that have little defense would have to address mobs more cautiously and utilize movement and positioning to avoid damage. Both cases are successful but approach the same situation differently by utilizing the advantages of their roles. Nothing about this scenario requires a specific composition. That is something you made up.

And if you really think that tweaks to the AI will promote build diversity, you’re naive. Berserker will still be the only thing worth taking. Why? Because conditions still have the same limitations. There is still a 25 stack cap, thus limiting the amount of damage a condi user can do and hurts a party when there are more than 1 condi users. Berserker builds still apply conditions via passives and skills that overwrite the conditions from condi users. Enemies that have a lot of armor but low hp (such as the husks) are designed to be weak to condis and resistant to raw damage, but raw damage takes them down just as fast, if not faster, than condi builds.

Control skills are still relatively useless because of defiant, but getting rid of defiant will make control skills stupidly overpowered.

Defensive stats are still inferior to offensive stats because they don’t have the ability support a team. They don’t have the damage to create aggro and if mechanics are introduced to make enemies attack high armored players, then you have the trinity gameplay you hate.

The best tweaks to design and enemy mechanics can do is make players move around instead of stacking, but that doesn’t change the fundamental problem of offensive stats being superior to everything else in every situation.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

That is the only way to break zerker.

How far the developers go in that direction is up to them.

And what will this accomplish? If zerker is “broken” people will make the next best thing in terms of dps meta.
It might be Knight’s, it might be Cavalier’s. Probably a mix of the two.

What will you accomplish? You’ll have changed “zerk only ping gear” into “knights only ping gear”.

Is that better?

People that keep suggesting that Anet build encounters to “break zerker” don’t really understand what a meta is, or why a meta is meta.

Ultimately the only change that will come is making the same encounters we’ve been doing for two years last longer and become even more tedious.

Edit : also maha makes another great point. That kind of opponent and encounter is not fun to play against. Enjoy stomping the casuals into not paying the gem store again.

Loki.8793:

Seera.5916:

Loki.8793:

Seera.5916:

I don’t agree with the OP. His solution will not get rid of meta builds, which is what OP claims to hate.

All of my posts in this thread have been against this solution.

No, I never once said I hated meta builds. Where did you get this idea?

What I want and advocate for is more build variety seen in the meta and to have other stats aside from power and crits have some sort of relevance in the meta.

Because every build will never be equal to each other. There will always be a build that’s just better than the rest. Or a small set of builds.

The more variety gets coded into being required the more of a trinity this game becomes. And one of the main selling points of this game was no trinity. No having to wait for a healer. No having to wait for a tank.

I don’t have to wait for a boon booster or a condition giver or a healer or a whatever. I can go out and do things by myself. I can give myself boons. I can give conditions and I can cure conditions. I can heal myself and I can go to town on enemies.

Your solution means I have to give up things that I can do because I can’t spec for everything. Meaning there will be less things that I can solo, even if I’m the best player in the game (and I’m not). So if I give up my ability to give conditions very well, that if content is made that requires conditions be given, I’ll likely have to partner with someone else to do it.

You’re focusing way too much on the direct example I gave to illustrate my suggestion rather than the suggestion itself, which I explicitly stated multiple times not to do.

I maintain the characters are too strong at the moment and can do too many things at once with absolutely no investment. This is what has lead to the stale meta we have seen for the past 2 years. My suggestion is to limit what a character can do naturally and to open up options through specialization, where stat choices are not just purely for stats but also directly affect the potency of your skills. This is exactly what was done in GW1 and it worked fabulously, and there is very little reason why it wouldn’t work similarly here.

When your only complaint is that you don’t like the inconvenience of not having every option in front of you at all times, it’s clear you aren’t thinking about the game but instead are only thinking about yourself. You’ve been spoiled, and it shows.

There’s a reason the GW1 system of “specialization” was done away with and instead we were freely allowed to do more things in one build or with one character.

People enjoy this type of freedom.
The flip side of high specialization is that some classes’ specific specializations become much better at a certain task than others. This inevitably leads to “LFG THIS CLASS THIS SPEC” posts on the LFG tool which some players already have a problem with.

The idea that GW2 was launched and based on is that everyone will be doing mostly and pretty much everything and usually at the same time. Look at the game as a whole and you’ll see that.

You have to realize that they could very easily have gone the “specialization” route. Alpha builds of the game had a very different system with player assigned attributes that offered exactly this kind of specialization into one thing and not others. The system was scrapped and reworked into what we have now. There’s a reason for that.

Different roles require different tactics. You are assuming that if this change were implemented, people would still be approaching dungeons the same way they currently do. They wouldn’t, plain and simple.

This is wrong. People currently approach dungeons in a manner that gives the fastest clear time.

Post-changes they will still approach it in this manner – whatever gets us to the end faster.

The situation you describe sounds good on paper – a more tanky group goes head on with the mobs while a more squishy group uses positioning.

In reality people will just figure out what type of group gives the best clear times and in a month will request people to use that method and thus a new meta will be born.

This situation you’re describing existed for a bit after release until people figured out the encounters, their own classes and what combinations give the best clear times and faster rewards.

Harper.4173:

This is flawed. See the Arah no dodges video – where people in full defensive gear unbind their dodge button and faceroll one of the most challenging dungeons in the game without much effort.

Tanking is already that strong in this game. Why would we want more of this faceroll easy mode situations?

Slightly flaw argument there as other active defense were used in the video so, is there a no dodge, block, blind, weakness clear video out there you’d like to share.

When I First started Cooking Professionally I was working in a corporate Cafe. Made Breakfast and lunch for around 400 or so people. Starting at around 5 Am. I learned how to cook Eggs. I cooked all sorts of styles of Eggs and I used a 3 foot by 6 foot Flat Iron skillet. Because It was what we had.

Handfull of years Later I find myself in a Local Diner. The 24 hour breakfast type place. Had a big flat iron as well as a bunch of other things. First Day on the job I get asked if I know how to “flip” eggs using a non stick pan.

“Guess I am learning today”

2 dozen eggs later I could get a decent Flip. And By the time I was Done working there I could double Flip a 4 yolk.

Did that make My flat iron any worse for cooking Eggs? not really. I just Ended up using it for other things. and left my eggs to their pans and the spiders. Allowing me to be more efficient and have more things going on. But it came at the cost of really stepping up my game and paying even more attention to so many other things at the same time.

The risk came from if I missed one thing inevitably it all came crashing down. the reward? I could pump out more tickets and make my dining populous happy by getting their food at a reasonable time and still tasting good. Could I have just used the Flat Iron? Certainly, it just would have taken me twice as long. but I would have had less chance to screw up.

I got good at it. It took a little bit of time but I got better. and I could do more with less than when I first started.

So….
Do you take my non stick? and maybe make my Flat Iron bigger?
Do you delete Berserker Gear and make something else “more Viable”

How about instead of Us constantly going back and forth and arguing.

Give us a new and different Egg?

because frankly I, and many others are sick of everyone complaining about, and trying to give flawed logic on how we should change the chicken.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Only one way to break the zerker meta without introducing harder restrictions and that is to make the AI effective enough to counterplay it within the rulesets of the game.

- If players can dodge, so should a lot of the mobs, and should do it reactively and effectively.
- If players can lay down effective smoke fields and stack the opposition around the corner, mobs should be able to do this against players, reflects? mobs should be able to do this just as effectively.
- If players are capable of monster healing and effective water blasting etc, so should mobs.

Making the ai smarter does sound interesting when they encounter zerkers.

I wonder why people who don’t like this game don’t just quit? Seriously, if I disliked the core combat mechanics of a game so much that I resorted to making QQ posts on the forums about the core combat mechanics two years after the game launched I would simply uninstall.

The only thing that makes the pve in this game unique and interesting is the active combat, so ruining that is literally ruining the game. Thank heavens the devs aren’t so dumb as to take these absurd complaints seriously.

If you guys like, I can suggest a list of trinity games you can play where your main tank can soak up damage and heals from the pure healer while the DPS toons range the bosses down. You’ll be happier, since you get to play the type of game you want. I’ll be happier because I don’t have to read QQ threads about a game’s combat system two years after launch written by people who don’t have the faintest understanding of the system they purport to change.

Ropechef.6192:

How about instead of Us constantly going back and forth and arguing.

Give us a new and different Egg?

because frankly I, and many others are sick of everyone complaining about, and trying to give flawed logic on how we should change the chicken.

You could also just not be so kitten defensive and consider hypotheticals to hold down a discussion. Not that your egg metaphor wasn’t entertaining but when it all comes down to it, we’re not pushing for implementation, we’re pushing for dialog and discussion. And this community has shown it is very prone to plugging its ears and dismissing anything that so much as hints about the vastness outside of their warm safe box.

We can all start out by looking at a situation (not a problem, a situation), examine it and think “can this situation be made better?”. To that question, it should always be answered ‘Yes’ but then you shift the discussion on ‘what’ and ‘how’ to make that situation better. But most people don’t even make it to the point okittennowledging the situation being addressed, likely because there’s corn cobs in their ears.

In my perspective of this so called ‘zerk meta’, looking at the situation of this in PvE, I’m thinking of the situation in form of content. Damage becomes the answer to nearly every tough encounter in the game even to the point you can ‘nullify’ content so you don’t even have to worry about the enemy using their super strong moves. Introducing more content henceforth can be one solution and I’ve advocated that since the 6months mark of the game, but I can also look to the outside, even hypothetically, to kitten the change in the situation. You don’t have to push for implementation to do that.

But of course, asking people to do such would require work on their part and we know how lazy a forum poster around here can be.

Bran.7425:

Harper.4173:

This is flawed. See the Arah no dodges video – where people in full defensive gear unbind their dodge button and faceroll one of the most challenging dungeons in the game without much effort.

Tanking is already that strong in this game. Why would we want more of this faceroll easy mode situations?

Slightly flaw argument there as other active defense were used in the video so, is there a no dodge, block, blind, weakness clear video out there you’d like to share.

No – and do you know why?

because this game was designed around the concept of active combat and active damage mitigation through prevention.

This game was not designed to be a “take those hits and tank them” game.

If that’s what you want this game to become – I’m sorry but I’m against it and I hope the devs don’t go down this route.
The whole point of GW2’s combat is to actively manage yourself, and use active measures to defend yourself.

It rewards smart and active gameplay not getting hit and asking for more.

hybrid.5027:

I wonder why people who don’t like this game don’t just quit? Seriously, if I disliked the core combat mechanics of a game so much that I resorted to making QQ posts on the forums about the core combat mechanics two years after the game launched I would simply uninstall.

The only thing that makes the pve in this game unique and interesting is the active combat, so ruining that is literally ruining the game. Thank heavens the devs aren’t so dumb as to take these absurd complaints seriously.

If you guys like, I can suggest a list of trinity games you can play where your main tank can soak up damage and heals from the pure healer while the DPS toons range the bosses down. You’ll be happier, since you get to play the type of game you want. I’ll be happier because I don’t have to read QQ threads about a game’s combat system two years after launch written by people who don’t have the faintest understanding of the system they purport to change.

It’s because people are so convinced their way is the right way that they’ll simply keep spamming the forums long after they’ve stopped playing.

Ropechef.6192:

When I First started Cooking Professionally I was working in a corporate Cafe. Made Breakfast and lunch for around 400 or so people. Starting at around 5 Am. I learned how to cook Eggs. I cooked all sorts of styles of Eggs and I used a 3 foot by 6 foot Flat Iron skillet. Because It was what we had.

Handfull of years Later I find myself in a Local Diner. The 24 hour breakfast type place. Had a big flat iron as well as a bunch of other things. First Day on the job I get asked if I know how to “flip” eggs using a non stick pan.

“Guess I am learning today”

2 dozen eggs later I could get a decent Flip. And By the time I was Done working there I could double Flip a 4 yolk.

Did that make My flat iron any worse for cooking Eggs? not really. I just Ended up using it for other things. and left my eggs to their pans and the spiders. Allowing me to be more efficient and have more things going on. But it came at the cost of really stepping up my game and paying even more attention to so many other things at the same time.

The risk came from if I missed one thing inevitably it all came crashing down. the reward? I could pump out more tickets and make my dining populous happy by getting their food at a reasonable time and still tasting good. Could I have just used the Flat Iron? Certainly, it just would have taken me twice as long. but I would have had less chance to screw up.

I got good at it. It took a little bit of time but I got better. and I could do more with less than when I first started.

So….
Do you take my non stick? and maybe make my Flat Iron bigger?
Do you delete Berserker Gear and make something else “more Viable”

How about instead of Us constantly going back and forth and arguing.

Give us a new and different Egg?

because frankly I, and many others are sick of everyone complaining about, and trying to give flawed logic on how we should change the chicken.

Your responses are always great… but they always leave me very hungry!

Harper.4173:

Bran.7425:

Harper.4173:

This is flawed. See the Arah no dodges video – where people in full defensive gear unbind their dodge button and faceroll one of the most challenging dungeons in the game without much effort.

Tanking is already that strong in this game. Why would we want more of this faceroll easy mode situations?

Slightly flaw argument there as other active defense were used in the video so, is there a no dodge, block, blind, weakness clear video out there you’d like to share.

No – and do you know why?

because this game was designed around the concept of active combat and active damage mitigation through prevention.

This game was not designed to be a “take those hits and tank them” game.

If that’s what you want this game to become – I’m sorry but I’m against it and I hope the devs don’t go down this route.
The whole point of GW2’s combat is to actively manage yourself, and use active measures to defend yourself.

It rewards smart and active gameplay not getting hit and asking for more.

So be it, but dodge is yet another one of those active defense (by definition) so that ‘no dodge’ video remains a bad argument for stating that the defensive stats are too strong.

Take this with a grain of salt, but in my opinion the entire combat system was designed around spvp 5v5 conquest and rest of the game modes were not fully considered within this system.

So against player the defensive stats have a place, but with the systems in place in PvE (favoring high hp total/‘object’ bosses, large ‘I am going to kill you now’ attack.) the stats kind of break down.

hybrid.5027:

I wonder why people who don’t like this game don’t just quit? Seriously, if I disliked the core combat mechanics of a game so much that I resorted to making QQ posts on the forums about the core combat mechanics two years after the game launched I would simply uninstall.

The only thing that makes the pve in this game unique and interesting is the active combat, so ruining that is literally ruining the game. Thank heavens the devs aren’t so dumb as to take these absurd complaints seriously.

If you guys like, I can suggest a list of trinity games you can play where your main tank can soak up damage and heals from the pure healer while the DPS toons range the bosses down. You’ll be happier, since you get to play the type of game you want. I’ll be happier because I don’t have to read QQ threads about a game’s combat system two years after launch written by people who don’t have the faintest understanding of the system they purport to change.

Are you serious?

Bunker Guard which is for the most part a PURE tank with support requires a great deal of active play to play good with, you’re not gonna stand there and get double backstabbed by two sleight of hand thieves while a power longbow ranger pelts you from the ridge.

Tanky != no active play, TERA Online says otherwise, Dark Souls says otherwise, Global Agenda (RIP) says otherwise, Spvp says otherwise, WvW says otherwise.

The only reason as to why its this way in GW2 PvE is due to the fact that mobs are completely one dimensional. They don’t harass you forward into traps, they don’t reactively block, dodge, almost all attacks are easily telegraphed and avoidable, all of which are avoidable with the same methods using the same rhythms with no designs to try and break you out of auto pilot dodging. The same methods of engagement albeit one or two adjustments can be used to tackle a huge chunk of content without even understanding why it does what it does. You can quite literally enact one strategy and the AI will do almost nothing to counter play you or even live long enough for anything to register.

And what exactly about PvE in this game that is at all interesting? Mobs are predictable and are easy to dissect and break down everything will always do the same thing, you always expect the same outcomes the same behavior the same results, what is so interesting about monotone again?

Lupi dies to cloak and dagger backstab spam, you can literally dance circles around him while he struggle to land hits on anything until he tries to put you into bubbles. That isn’t interesting, it’s like watching a giant baby struggle in his crib.

You can spin Mai Trin in circles while first mate desperately tries to blow you up with a slow kitten cannon, that is interesting?

I honestly don’t see it, is it the jumping puzzles? well not a lot of other mmos have diverse platforming sequences anyways. I will admit that the environments are very beautiful.

This game has fantastic core mechanics, it has fantastic combat and great production values. We need PvE content that challenges us on all fronts, our ability to maneuver, to think critically, and to make core choices in our setups and forces us to really appreciate all the designs and choices we have available. Nothing in PvE does that innately.

Chrispy.5641:

Izaya.2906:

Yes toughness increases armor additively but that’s not where it stops with regards to how toughness scales with damage reduction.

You can refer to this ancient thread during the early days with regards to toughness:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/60838-math-damage-reduction-toughness-and-vitality/

I will reiterate that facetanking mobs with 99% damage reduction isn’t intended, that’s why you get diminishing returns when it comes to damage reduction from toughness. It is working as intended.

I see no conflict here. Let me show you why :::

Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (Toughness + Defense)

I’ll be using that damage formula. To make it easier for you to understand, weapon power and Defense are both equal to 1000 and the skill coefficient is 1.

If Power and Toughness were 1000 :::

1000 × 1000 × 1 / (1000 + 1000)
1,000,000 / 2000 = 500

If Power and Toughness were 2000 :::
2000 × 1000 × 1 / (2000 + 1000)
2,000,000 / 3000 = 667

If Power and Toughness were 3000 :::
3000 × 1000 × 1 / (3000 + 1000)
3,000,000 / 4000 = 750

In all three calculations, all values remained the same, except for Power and Toughness. Both of which were the same value in each calculation. Notice how damage went up. Its because Power multiplies with weapon strength (and skill coefficient) before the division takes place, while toughness only adds with armor defense. And this is before you throw in critical damage and vulnerability, both of which also multiply with the total damage to make the number even higher.

So, yeah, I’m still right. I never said that was a bad thing either, nor do I really want it to change to where all stats are equal, but my point still stands, and not one of you have been able to disprove it yet. Power is more valuable as a stat than any other stat in the game, and its foolish to invest in other stats if you want to be as effective as possible.

All you’re seeing is “I’m right” and completely missing the point that it’s intended for get dimishing returns for toughness damage reduction-wise(you should compare toughness after adding in gear/traits and base toughness, not compare how power scales with damage with respect to toughness and damage reduction).

If you’ll make toughness too effective then it will come to a point that it can totally or close to totally negate incoming physical damage which isn’t the goal of a game touting no trinity. Facetanking with toughness wasn’t planned and will not be implemented any time soon.

We all know Power gives more bang for your stat, but the is the main point of having no trinity(no one facetanking everything or healing to the point of negating all incoming damage).

In the end, does it really matter if there’s an optimal gear? I PUG dungeons every day and I can clearly tell when people are using zerker or not. The dungeon gets done either way, give or take a few minutes. I’d wager that only about 20% of the active population actually uses full zerker, so most people don’t really seem to mind that they aren’t using the best gear they can.

Hell. I use flame legion runes because I don’t want to devote that much gold to min-maxing when I do dungeons purely for gold.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

hybrid.5027:

I wonder why people who don’t like this game don’t just quit? Seriously, if I disliked the core combat mechanics of a game so much that I resorted to making QQ posts on the forums about the core combat mechanics two years after the game launched I would simply uninstall.

The only thing that makes the pve in this game unique and interesting is the active combat, so ruining that is literally ruining the game. Thank heavens the devs aren’t so dumb as to take these absurd complaints seriously.

If you guys like, I can suggest a list of trinity games you can play where your main tank can soak up damage and heals from the pure healer while the DPS toons range the bosses down. You’ll be happier, since you get to play the type of game you want. I’ll be happier because I don’t have to read QQ threads about a game’s combat system two years after launch written by people who don’t have the faintest understanding of the system they purport to change.

Are you serious?

Bunker Guard which is for the most part a PURE tank with support requires a great deal of active play to play good with, you’re not gonna stand there and get double backstabbed by two sleight of hand thieves while a power longbow ranger pelts you from the ridge.

Tanky != no active play, TERA Online says otherwise, Dark Souls says otherwise, Global Agenda (RIP) says otherwise, Spvp says otherwise, WvW says otherwise.

The only reason as to why its this way in GW2 PvE is due to the fact that mobs are completely one dimensional. They don’t harass you forward into traps, they don’t reactively block, dodge, almost all attacks are easily telegraphed and avoidable, all of which are avoidable with the same methods using the same rhythms with no designs to try and break you out of auto pilot dodging. The same methods of engagement albeit one or two adjustments can be used to tackle a huge chunk of content without even understanding why it does what it does. You can quite literally enact one strategy and the AI will do almost nothing to counter play you or even live long enough for anything to register.

And what exactly about PvE in this game that is at all interesting? Mobs are predictable and are easy to dissect and break down everything will always do the same thing, you always expect the same outcomes the same behavior the same results, what is so interesting about monotone again?

Lupi dies to cloak and dagger backstab spam, you can literally dance circles around him while he struggle to land hits on anything until he tries to put you into bubbles. That isn’t interesting, it’s like watching a giant baby struggle in his crib.

You can spin Mai Trin in circles while first mate desperately tries to blow you up with a slow kitten cannon, that is interesting?

I honestly don’t see it, is it the jumping puzzles? well not a lot of other mmos have diverse platforming sequences anyways. I will admit that the environments are very beautiful.

This game has fantastic core mechanics, it has fantastic combat and great production values. We need PvE content that challenges us on all fronts, our ability to maneuver, to think critically, and to make core choices in our setups and forces us to really appreciate all the designs and choices we have available. Nothing in PvE does that innately.

You’re the guy talking about pvp in a pve thread. So yeah.

Bran.7425:

Harper.4173:

Bran.7425:

Harper.4173:

This is flawed. See the Arah no dodges video – where people in full defensive gear unbind their dodge button and faceroll one of the most challenging dungeons in the game without much effort.

Tanking is already that strong in this game. Why would we want more of this faceroll easy mode situations?

Slightly flaw argument there as other active defense were used in the video so, is there a no dodge, block, blind, weakness clear video out there you’d like to share.

No – and do you know why?

because this game was designed around the concept of active combat and active damage mitigation through prevention.

This game was not designed to be a “take those hits and tank them” game.

If that’s what you want this game to become – I’m sorry but I’m against it and I hope the devs don’t go down this route.
The whole point of GW2’s combat is to actively manage yourself, and use active measures to defend yourself.

It rewards smart and active gameplay not getting hit and asking for more.

So be it, but dodge is yet another one of those active defense (by definition) so that ‘no dodge’ video remains a bad argument for stating that the defensive stats are too strong.

Take this with a grain of salt, but in my opinion the entire combat system was designed around spvp 5v5 conquest and rest of the game modes were not fully considered within this system.

So against player the defensive stats have a place, but with the systems in place in PvE (favoring high hp total/‘object’ bosses, large ‘I am going to kill you now’ attack.) the stats kind of break down.

They are too strong. You shouldn’t be surviving without all of your active defenses.

Clearly the most important and key aspect of the active defense system is the dodge system.
Passive stats should help but not as much so that people can make do without dodges.

Regarding the game design issues – there’s a lot there you have to look at.

GW2 sells itself as a casual game for casual people. Casual doesn’t necessarily mean bad but usually it means less invested, less knowledgeable, less competent players. I’m sorry to say it but that’s the way it is.

A guy putting in 2-3 hours a week will never really be better at a game than a guy putting in 20-30 hours per week.

GW2’s “wait for it super mega heavy hitting attack” strategy is designed to make the encounters more approachable by the casual player base.
The entire encounter system in dungeons is made not very hard because the golden rule seems to have been " everyone should be able to complete regardless of how clueless or bad they are".

And it is working.

Encounters that would force the “zerker elite” who play GW2 in a hardcore way to drop their zerker gear and put in something with more toughness and vitality because they can’t complete as full zerker would absolutely demolish the casual player base.

hybrid.5027:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

hybrid.5027:

I wonder why people who don’t like this game don’t just quit? Seriously, if I disliked the core combat mechanics of a game so much that I resorted to making QQ posts on the forums about the core combat mechanics two years after the game launched I would simply uninstall.

The only thing that makes the pve in this game unique and interesting is the active combat, so ruining that is literally ruining the game. Thank heavens the devs aren’t so dumb as to take these absurd complaints seriously.

If you guys like, I can suggest a list of trinity games you can play where your main tank can soak up damage and heals from the pure healer while the DPS toons range the bosses down. You’ll be happier, since you get to play the type of game you want. I’ll be happier because I don’t have to read QQ threads about a game’s combat system two years after launch written by people who don’t have the faintest understanding of the system they purport to change.

Are you serious?

Bunker Guard which is for the most part a PURE tank with support requires a great deal of active play to play good with, you’re not gonna stand there and get double backstabbed by two sleight of hand thieves while a power longbow ranger pelts you from the ridge.

Tanky != no active play, TERA Online says otherwise, Dark Souls says otherwise, Global Agenda (RIP) says otherwise, Spvp says otherwise, WvW says otherwise.

The only reason as to why its this way in GW2 PvE is due to the fact that mobs are completely one dimensional. They don’t harass you forward into traps, they don’t reactively block, dodge, almost all attacks are easily telegraphed and avoidable, all of which are avoidable with the same methods using the same rhythms with no designs to try and break you out of auto pilot dodging. The same methods of engagement albeit one or two adjustments can be used to tackle a huge chunk of content without even understanding why it does what it does. You can quite literally enact one strategy and the AI will do almost nothing to counter play you or even live long enough for anything to register.

And what exactly about PvE in this game that is at all interesting? Mobs are predictable and are easy to dissect and break down everything will always do the same thing, you always expect the same outcomes the same behavior the same results, what is so interesting about monotone again?

Lupi dies to cloak and dagger backstab spam, you can literally dance circles around him while he struggle to land hits on anything until he tries to put you into bubbles. That isn’t interesting, it’s like watching a giant baby struggle in his crib.

You can spin Mai Trin in circles while first mate desperately tries to blow you up with a slow kitten cannon, that is interesting?

I honestly don’t see it, is it the jumping puzzles? well not a lot of other mmos have diverse platforming sequences anyways. I will admit that the environments are very beautiful.

This game has fantastic core mechanics, it has fantastic combat and great production values. We need PvE content that challenges us on all fronts, our ability to maneuver, to think critically, and to make core choices in our setups and forces us to really appreciate all the designs and choices we have available. Nothing in PvE does that innately.

You’re the guy talking about pvp in a pve thread. So yeah.

LOL is that all you have for me? I clearly mentioned examples of PvE CLEARLY and no comment on those?

Tera Online’s tanking practices in PvE require more twitch, reaction, and timing than any PvE in Guild Wars 2, this is sheer proof that content can be ton that would demand high reactive capability from everyone including toughness archetypes regardless of trinity or not.

I clearly mentioned examples of how content can demand utmost dedication from all archetypes with leg room in Guild Wars 2 without introducing the trinity system and WITHOUT blowing up berserker builds in my previous posts, still no comment on those?

The truth is clear, you just want your way to be the only way with no alternatives. The Zerker Meta is holding this game back, and it needs to disappear.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Are you serious?

Bunker Guard which is for the most part a PURE tank with support requires a great deal of active play to play good with, you’re not gonna stand there and get double backstabbed by two sleight of hand thieves while a power longbow ranger pelts you from the ridge.

Tanky != no active play, TERA Online says otherwise, Dark Souls says otherwise, Global Agenda (RIP) says otherwise, Spvp says otherwise, WvW says otherwise.

The only reason as to why its this way in GW2 PvE is due to the fact that mobs are completely one dimensional. They don’t harass you forward into traps, they don’t reactively block, dodge, almost all attacks are easily telegraphed and avoidable, all of which are avoidable with the same methods using the same rhythms with no designs to try and break you out of auto pilot dodging. The same methods of engagement albeit one or two adjustments can be used to tackle a huge chunk of content without even understanding why it does what it does. You can quite literally enact one strategy and the AI will do almost nothing to counter play you or even live long enough for anything to register.

And what exactly about PvE in this game that is at all interesting? Mobs are predictable and are easy to dissect and break down everything will always do the same thing, you always expect the same outcomes the same behavior the same results, what is so interesting about monotone again?

Lupi dies to cloak and dagger backstab spam, you can literally dance circles around him while he struggle to land hits on anything until he tries to put you into bubbles. That isn’t interesting, it’s like watching a giant baby struggle in his crib.

You can spin Mai Trin in circles while first mate desperately tries to blow you up with a slow kitten cannon, that is interesting?

I honestly don’t see it, is it the jumping puzzles? well not a lot of other mmos have diverse platforming sequences anyways. I will admit that the environments are very beautiful.

This game has fantastic core mechanics, it has fantastic combat and great production values. We need PvE content that challenges us on all fronts, our ability to maneuver, to think critically, and to make core choices in our setups and forces us to really appreciate all the designs and choices we have available. Nothing in PvE does that innately.

I agree with a lot of this. I like the game’s combat as it is now, but if they could ever move PVE combat to feel more like PVP (which is a HUGE if), then it would add more diversity to game play and be a step forward from the (albeit very good) gameplay we have now.

But what youre talking about is reactive AI at a level that probably isnt possible with today’s technology.

Barring that, what we have is pretty good – with fights getting more and more interesting each time they bring in something new (Aetherpath, Triple Threat, recent living story mechanics, interesting bosses in Dry Top and Silverwastes, etc). They are obviously adapting and getting better at encouraging role diversity.

I think the game is heading in a nice direction and that non zerker builds are more viable than they were 12 months ago.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

The Zerker Meta is holding this game back, and it needs to disappear.

In which way it’s holding back the game? I only see see people hold back by their own ignorance who can’t let the trinity go.

ps: You can wear any other set beside berserker’s and assasin’s. It’s just a borderline exploit but you won’t get a ban for it.

Harper.4173:

They are too strong. You shouldn’t be surviving without all of your active defenses.

Clearly the most important and key aspect of the active defense system is the dodge system.
Passive stats should help but not as much so that people can make do without dodges.

Regarding the game design issues – there’s a lot there you have to look at.

GW2 sells itself as a casual game for casual people. Casual doesn’t necessarily mean bad but usually it means less invested, less knowledgeable, less competent players. I’m sorry to say it but that’s the way it is.

A guy putting in 2-3 hours a week will never really be better at a game than a guy putting in 20-30 hours per week.

GW2’s “wait for it super mega heavy hitting attack” strategy is designed to make the encounters more approachable by the casual player base.
The entire encounter system in dungeons is made not very hard because the golden rule seems to have been " everyone should be able to complete regardless of how clueless or bad they are".

And it is working.

Problem one not every profession and build will have the same total number of active defenses. If dodge is to be basis for the combat then there would not be a big a difference between the extremes on the professions (all) necromancer(s) being on one end and (some) thief builds on the other.

Not sure if the ‘casual’ game will ever have the challenge you desire out of it, but make that its own argument.

Doesn’t effect me at all, I play the game as a partial substitute for the lack of table top rpg groups in my area as my normal groups have gotten to the too busy to get together anymore (work, kids, other hobbies etc).

However I still find your argument lacking and the ‘passive stat are too strong because they are too strong’ backbone of the discusses is boring me and is complete invalidated by the fact that nearly every balance change in the game is centered around a complete different mode of play with completely different concerns.

Dalanor.5387:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

The Zerker Meta is holding this game back, and it needs to disappear.

In which way it’s holding back the game? I only see see people hold back by their own ignorance who can’t let the trinity go.

ps: You can wear any other set beside berserker’s and assasin’s. It’s just a borderline exploit but you won’t get a ban for it.

I do not understand the last comment.

Regardless please see my previous posts in regards to my perspective on the matter. The first post I made in this thread is a clear example of where I think PvE content should go, I am here to suggest designs that Guild Wars 2 can make their own, not copy World of Warcraft.

Going to also post this video, has some good ideas especially around the 11 minute mark

Wolfmoon.2976:

Going to also post this video, has some good ideas especially around the 11 minute mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBOlaYlBBZA

Please god no.
This isn’t a trinity game.

People need to take a minute, shake out this idea of what an mmo “should be” that they’re all stuck on.

Then sit back down and see GW2 for what it is, an action game placed into an MMO.

It’s PVE is built upon an idea of Read and React. You’re given tools to handle different things, and if you act correctly you’re going to come out more or less unscathed. That’s the design of the game, it’s beautiful.

If you want a game that’s about managing health bars, tanking, and other stuff like that… well there’s plenty out there, but it’s not GW2.

A gimmicky event that supports tank gear, I can agree with him on that, everything else he talks about in that video is promoting GW2 getting closer to a trinity system.

Jerus.4350:

Wolfmoon.2976:

Going to also post this video, has some good ideas especially around the 11 minute mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBOlaYlBBZA

Please god no.
This isn’t a trinity game.

People need to take a minute, shake out this idea of what an mmo “should be” that they’re all stuck on.

Then sit back down and see GW2 for what it is, an action game placed into an MMO.

It’s PVE is built upon an idea of Read and React. You’re given tools to handle different things, and if you act correctly you’re going to come out more or less unscathed. That’s the design of the game, it’s beautiful.

If you want a game that’s about managing health bars, tanking, and other stuff like that… well there’s plenty out there, but it’s not GW2.

A gimmicky event that supports tank gear, I can agree with him on that, everything else he talks about in that video is promoting GW2 getting closer to a trinity system.

Then why bother to even have armor/weapon stats in this game? Or different runes? Or even different classes for that matter. Why have classes that can heal or mitigate damage if its pointless? Why not even remove all the stats in the game then and just have a no stat system like one of those beat em up arcade games.

Honestly they are better off removing all the armor stats from armor/weapons/traits and just let runes decide what how your character is specced. I don’t know what else to say.

Wolfmoon.2976:

Jerus.4350:

Wolfmoon.2976:

Going to also post this video, has some good ideas especially around the 11 minute mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBOlaYlBBZA

Please god no.
This isn’t a trinity game.

People need to take a minute, shake out this idea of what an mmo “should be” that they’re all stuck on.

Then sit back down and see GW2 for what it is, an action game placed into an MMO.

It’s PVE is built upon an idea of Read and React. You’re given tools to handle different things, and if you act correctly you’re going to come out more or less unscathed. That’s the design of the game, it’s beautiful.

If you want a game that’s about managing health bars, tanking, and other stuff like that… well there’s plenty out there, but it’s not GW2.

A gimmicky event that supports tank gear, I can agree with him on that, everything else he talks about in that video is promoting GW2 getting closer to a trinity system.

Then why bother to even have armor/weapon stats in this game? Or different runes? Or even different classes for that matter. Why have classes that can heal or mitigate damage if its pointless? Why not even remove all the stats in the game then and just have a no stat system like one of those beat em up arcade games.

Honestly they are better off removing all the armor stats from armor/weapons/traits and just let runes decide what how your character is specced. I don’t know what else to say.

Because as others have mentioned, this is a casual game for casual players. Content was designed to be cleared despite how inexperienced, slow, or bad you are.

The implication here is that players can get by doing the loot pinata world boss train and not touch dungeons. No dodging necessary! No criticals needed!

As far as completing dungeons go, sometimes that means taking some passive defense. If you need the training wheels, then take them. If not, then take berserker gear.

If you’re going to gate the content in a way that makes other gear equally viable, you’re going to get one of three situations:

1.) Dungeons become loot pinatas completely. Lolwuts difficulty?

2.) More set roles makes the elitism worse. Players will be expected to have multiple sets of gear, be expected to run even more specific traits and stats (to meet whatever breakpoint of what ever “role” they’re performing), again to help ensure a fast and smooth run. When content is this old, people don’t want viable. They want optimal, and they’re going to filter until they get it.

3.) The trinity makes a full return to GW2.

Most of you posting for changes here fall into at least one of these categories.

1.) Want the return of the trinity (will probably not happen)

2.) Want the end of elitism (I guarantee you, anything resembling roles will make it worse, because others will not be able to carry you if you fail/suck)

3.) Bandwagon fanbois reposting an idea from WoodenPotatoes that merely sounded catchy (most of us have seen the video, and I personally think no content in this game should ever reward a spec as forgiving as that)

4.) Have never done dungeon content more difficult than AC or CoF and don’t understand/realize the extent of active defense

5.) Want change for the sake of change (rather than the sake of improving)

Sorry, I appreciate the time you have put into this, but the ideas are simply no good.

The advantage of Guild Wars 2’s system is that support is independent of stats, thus making the support you decide, be custom detailed to your traits and utilities.

By forcing things into stats, you are encouraging passive play and creating even more pigeonholing while simultaneously lowering the skill cap. Currently, as long as players pick their abilities and play actively, they can play their characters as long as they play actively. They can avoid selfish play without being forced to invest in various stats. Making all these changes to cater strictly to a tiny area of the game known as “dungeon speedruns” of which the goal was arbitrarily set by certain players in search of faster loot is not good balancing at all. It’s not like pve is e-sports of any kind that requires that kind of fine tuning. You also have to factor in the damage it does to “non-meta” build that do not wish to invest in various stats.

Your premise is also fundamentally flawed. There’s always going to be something that’s optimal and thus “meta”. All you are really doing is shifting the meta to your own preference. Thus, there is really no argument on either to change so-called meta. One could argue that that means other stat sets are thus “less optimal” but that’s simply a matter of how the game works.

The goal of most pve instances is to destroy the boss. As long as that is the goal, then whatever combinations of stats that cuts the bosses down fastest willl reign supreme and people are still going to exclude base on that. Unless we put in a dungeon that every fight is truly optional.

But what happens when that’s not the goal? I don’t use berserker gear in open world because often times I am ignoring most enemies and would rather just be able to tank hits and get along with my business. It’s lower effort for really little impact. It doesn’t get my goals done any faster if I kill the random enemies faster.

If you want berserker to have competition, then fix conditions.

DaveGan.8065:

Because as others have mentioned, this is a casual game for casual players. Content was designed to be cleared despite how inexperienced, slow, or bad you are.

The implication here is that players can get by doing the loot pinata world boss train and not touch dungeons. No dodging necessary! No criticals needed!

No, GW2 wasn’t made to be a casual game for casual players. GW2 was designed to be an Esports game. The open world content and dynamic events were intended to be casual. Dungeons, and team based content, were all intended to be difficult and challenging. Go look at the early developer interviews during beta. They stated they wanted the story paths of dungeons to be completable with any composition, but for the explorable paths to be some of the most difficult content in GW2 and required coordination and communication in the team to complete. It ended up failing, however, due to bad dungeon design, and then when people figured out how to exploit it and run past most of the content, people got this silly idea that it was designed to be casual.

Want some proof? Here you go. http://www.tentonhammer.com/gw2/sdcc/2011/dungeons-and-underwater-interview

Ten Ton Hammer: In terms of difficulty and group content, how do dungeons factor into Guild Wars 2? Could they be compared to any of the GW1 zones players might be familiar with like Fissure of Woe, the Underworld, or even Slaver’s Exile?

Colin Johanson: The dungeons that we have come in two modes. The story mode is basically pick-up-group friendly. They’re – difficulty-wise – balanced for five random players, and those tell the story of Destiny’s Edge, the guild from the book (Edge of Destiny). And when you finish the story version of a dungeon you unlock the explorable version of that dungeon.

Those are intended to be the super hard, very coordinated group style content like Slaver’s Exile, or Fissure of Woe, or the Underworld.

And in case you don’t know, GW1 zones like the underworld and fissure of woe were really challenging zones that could easily wipe an unprepared party. While people learned the “meta” after a few years, they were considered some of the hardest content in the game. The fact Anet intended the explorable dungeon paths to be just like those zones says a lot to how difficult they wanted the content to be.

Most of you posting for changes here fall into at least one of these categories.

1.) Want the return of the trinity (will probably not happen)

2.) Want the end of elitism (I guarantee you, anything resembling roles will make it worse, because others will not be able to carry you if you fail/suck)

3.) Bandwagon fanbois reposting an idea from WoodenPotatoes that merely sounded catchy (most of us have seen the video, and I personally think no content in this game should ever reward a spec as forgiving as that)

4.) Have never done dungeon content more difficult than AC or CoF and don’t understand/realize the extent of active defense

5.) Want change for the sake of change (rather than the sake of improving)

If those are your only options, you clearly didn’t put a lot of thought into that list. If you find yourself reflexively fighting against the concept of change, then perhaps you’ve been spoiled too much by bad, but convenient, design.

ArchonWing.9480:

Sorry, I appreciate the time you have put into this, but the ideas are simply no good.

The advantage of Guild Wars 2’s system is that support is independent of stats, thus making the support you decide, be custom detailed to your traits and utilities.

By forcing things into stats, you are encouraging passive play and creating even more pigeonholing while simultaneously lowering the skill cap. Currently, as long as players pick their abilities and play actively, they can play their characters as long as they play actively. They can avoid selfish play without being forced to invest in various stats. Making all these changes to cater strictly to a tiny area of the game known as “dungeon speedruns” of which the goal was arbitrarily set by certain players in search of faster loot is not good balancing at all. It’s not like pve is e-sports of any kind that requires that kind of fine tuning. You also have to factor in the damage it does to “non-meta” build that do not wish to invest in various stats.

Your premise is also fundamentally flawed. There’s always going to be something that’s optimal and thus “meta”. All you are really doing is shifting the meta to your own preference. Thus, there is really no argument on either to change so-called meta. One could argue that that means other stat sets are thus “less optimal” but that’s simply a matter of how the game works.

The goal of most pve instances is to destroy the boss. As long as that is the goal, then whatever combinations of stats that cuts the bosses down fastest willl reign supreme and people are still going to exclude base on that. Unless we put in a dungeon that every fight is truly optional.

But what happens when that’s not the goal? I don’t use berserker gear in open world because often times I am ignoring most enemies and would rather just be able to tank hits and get along with my business. It’s lower effort for really little impact. It doesn’t get my goals done any faster if I kill the random enemies faster.

If you want berserker to have competition, then fix conditions.

If you want see answers to your criticisms, go read the comments on this thread. Literally everything you brought up has already been addressed.

And as a side comment, if you just run past most of the enemies in the open world, you don’t even need armor in the first place. When I run through orr with full berserkers, not once do I get hit. It’s not like it’s difficult to run past mobs in the first place.

DaveGan.8065:

—snip—

I will admit I fall under point 2 but here’s what I believe. I believe that if I am to be judged, I should be judged by what I am capable of not what I dress in. In the current values of the zerker meta, I am praised as experienced because I can roll in zerker, now if I switch out into PvT or anything else now I’m considered inexperienced? I can still solo dungeons in straight zerker, I’m still the same capable person so why is that second round of judgement passed? does that not sound silly to you? This is what the zerker meta teaches, to judge people based on their character sheets not who they are or what they are capable of this is how it is practiced in groups, this is how people behave in discussion, therefore this is what it is. In sPvP and WvW, if you wanted to play bunker or a balanced setup, you can still find a place, damage? you bet, support? most def at the head of the hammer train. The Zerker Meta in PvE? unless you run full zerker you have no place there is no tolerance for you.

Some levels of elitism are justified, If I present poor motor capabilities and the refusal to learn to succeed, yes that is completely justified in that situation, but if I am judged before I am even seen in combat, because I have higher health, because I have more armor? Get Real. Elitism is fine as long as there is justification behind it, not so much if the reasons are absurd. The zerker meta balls up everyone outside of their ideals and labels them as inferior, I don’t take kindly to people that do that especially when they can’t even deliver when placed outside of their comfort zone.

It even seems more silly now that you mentioned that this is a “casual game for casual players”, wouldn’t that make the entirety of the “zerker meta” that much more of a joke? Elite zerker dungeon speed runners OF A GAME MEANT FOR CASUALS, yeah that’s fantastic to put on the resume.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

hybrid.5027:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

hybrid.5027:

I wonder why people who don’t like this game don’t just quit? Seriously, if I disliked the core combat mechanics of a game so much that I resorted to making QQ posts on the forums about the core combat mechanics two years after the game launched I would simply uninstall.

The only thing that makes the pve in this game unique and interesting is the active combat, so ruining that is literally ruining the game. Thank heavens the devs aren’t so dumb as to take these absurd complaints seriously.

If you guys like, I can suggest a list of trinity games you can play where your main tank can soak up damage and heals from the pure healer while the DPS toons range the bosses down. You’ll be happier, since you get to play the type of game you want. I’ll be happier because I don’t have to read QQ threads about a game’s combat system two years after launch written by people who don’t have the faintest understanding of the system they purport to change.

Are you serious?

Bunker Guard which is for the most part a PURE tank with support requires a great deal of active play to play good with, you’re not gonna stand there and get double backstabbed by two sleight of hand thieves while a power longbow ranger pelts you from the ridge.

Tanky != no active play, TERA Online says otherwise, Dark Souls says otherwise, Global Agenda (RIP) says otherwise, Spvp says otherwise, WvW says otherwise.

The only reason as to why its this way in GW2 PvE is due to the fact that mobs are completely one dimensional. They don’t harass you forward into traps, they don’t reactively block, dodge, almost all attacks are easily telegraphed and avoidable, all of which are avoidable with the same methods using the same rhythms with no designs to try and break you out of auto pilot dodging. The same methods of engagement albeit one or two adjustments can be used to tackle a huge chunk of content without even understanding why it does what it does. You can quite literally enact one strategy and the AI will do almost nothing to counter play you or even live long enough for anything to register.

And what exactly about PvE in this game that is at all interesting? Mobs are predictable and are easy to dissect and break down everything will always do the same thing, you always expect the same outcomes the same behavior the same results, what is so interesting about monotone again?

Lupi dies to cloak and dagger backstab spam, you can literally dance circles around him while he struggle to land hits on anything until he tries to put you into bubbles. That isn’t interesting, it’s like watching a giant baby struggle in his crib.

You can spin Mai Trin in circles while first mate desperately tries to blow you up with a slow kitten cannon, that is interesting?

I honestly don’t see it, is it the jumping puzzles? well not a lot of other mmos have diverse platforming sequences anyways. I will admit that the environments are very beautiful.

This game has fantastic core mechanics, it has fantastic combat and great production values. We need PvE content that challenges us on all fronts, our ability to maneuver, to think critically, and to make core choices in our setups and forces us to really appreciate all the designs and choices we have available. Nothing in PvE does that innately.

You’re the guy talking about pvp in a pve thread. So yeah.

LOL is that all you have for me? I clearly mentioned examples of PvE CLEARLY and no comment on those?

Tera Online’s tanking practices in PvE require more twitch, reaction, and timing than any PvE in Guild Wars 2, this is sheer proof that content can be ton that would demand high reactive capability from everyone including toughness archetypes regardless of trinity or not.

I clearly mentioned examples of how content can demand utmost dedication from all archetypes with leg room in Guild Wars 2 without introducing the trinity system and WITHOUT blowing up berserker builds in my previous posts, still no comment on those?

The truth is clear, you just want your way to be the only way with no alternatives. The Zerker Meta is holding this game back, and it needs to disappear.

I’ve already said everything that an intelligent, objective person reading this thread would need to be said in order to arrive at the correct conclusions. I don’t need to pick nits with you. But I will say this, if Tera pve is so good, why don’t you go back to it?

Loki.8793:

And as a side comment, if you just run past most of the enemies in the open world, you don’t even need armor in the first place. When I run through orr with full berserkers, not once do I get hit. It’s not like it’s difficult to run past mobs in the first place.

Sure, I’ve done stuff without armor in Orr or whatnot just for kicks but it’s safer and minimizes the chances of any trouble. Like I can res for daily reviver or gather stuff without having too much issue while enemies are attack. And that’s often why I use speed runes as well. The few extra seconds of killing veterans or whatnot is largely irrelevant when they die in a few hits anyways. To me, this is more “efficient” use of my gameplay time.

I view gear as a convenience, and appreciate the game as it is currently, which is why I disagree with there really being a problem. Sometimes I will play a dungeon and some guardian will generously res me and I’ll notice a shield bubble going off . Sure, I then realize he’s using some crappy tank build, but on second thought who really cares as long as the dungeons get done? And yes, i think the current system works fine in these cases. I use zerker gear in dungeons of course though still not “meta”, but I would never call people to be executed for not being zerker.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

The Zerker Meta is holding this game back, and it needs to disappear.

My opinion is mine therefore it’s correct and it should be taken seriously.

There never should of been gear stats in PvE. It should be entirely through traits, runes and sigils. But its too late for that now. You just have to live with it.

Loki.8793:

snip

Didn’t that esports announcement come around the time of the manifesto about horizontal progression? Have we seen how wildly successful this esports approach has been? Given the “wild success” of esports, the time passed since this announcement, and the aftereffects of that manifesto, I think you need to come up with a more recent source.

I also think my list is fine. That dodge roll key is the reason I still play this game (in both PvP and PvE), and I don’t wish for the game to cheapen it with passive defense. But honestly, just like with the FGS nerf, the dungeoners in this thread aren’t being defensive.

They’re warning you all—the changes you ask for will not give you the effects you seek. Content will become even less accessible to the casual player, and players will be even more elitist about it.

What, you only have one set of gear? /kick
What, you don’t have 1500 condition damage? /kick
What, you only have a greatsword/axe/mace? /kick
What, you don’t have all these obscure traits unlocked? /kick
What, you have Australian internet? /kick (or maybe we’ll just let you play DPS—mash those keys hard bby)

“Roles” (primarily tank, healer, and control) in other MMOs do nothing but concentrate the difficulty of the encounter on a few key players, because other players do not have the specialization to cover a miss.

This is a game where the most effective groups see everyone doing everything. Might and fury are stacked by multiple players instead of just a single buffbot. CC (blinds, cripples, disables) are chained with all the players contributing, rather than a single controlbot.

A fully buffed berserker group has around double the output (or more) of a yolopugswug berserker group. People in these forums think berserker is more effective than it really is, because they’re crediting the party buffs and combo fields to the gear stat, not the player coordination. The reason the disparity between most zerkers and non-zerker groups is so wide is because most players who have figured out the combo fields bit are players who have also made the switch to berserker. That’s two changes, not one.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

if I switch out into PvT or anything else now I’m considered inexperienced? I can still solo dungeons in straight zerker, I’m still the same capable person so why is that second round of judgement passed? .

Snipped that out.

Why? because you’re consciously making a decision to make it easier on yourself while contributing less to the group.

It’s really as simple as that.

You’ll be doing less than half the damage you could have been doing and what’s the tradeoff there? It lets YOU have more defense so if YOU screw up you don’t die, no benefit to the group.

Why should anyone treat you like anything other than a selfish kitten or a noob if that’s how you’re acting? And at least personally, I have no problems with noobs, but people who know better still sticking in that defensive gear… why? I mean at least stack healing power and do something there, it’s unneeded but it’s at least something that can be used.

spoj.9672:

There never should of been gear stats in PvE. It should be entirely through traits, runes and sigils. But its too late for that now. You just have to live with it.

I don’t fully disagree, but I can honestly say I was glad to have the defensive power of Soldier gear when I started the game, as I learned I was able to strip it away, but it was much easier learning in gear that I didn’t splat on every mistake than in the gear where a mistake meant missing out on the rest of the fight. At least in some cases, others I didn’t fully learn till I went full out and took the “sink or swim” mentality.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

DaveGan.8065:

—snip—

I will admit I fall under point 2 but here’s what I believe. I believe that if I am to be judged, I should be judged by what I am capable of not what I dress in.

As I pointed out to Loki, berserker groups look significantly stronger than non-berserker groups not only because of the berserker gear, but also because that group is more likely to bring group buffs and take advantage of combo fields (and these are the groups you see on Youtube).

Do you know why some of us ask for berserkers then? It’s a filter. It’s profiling. And because this game has equality of opportunity and gearing is a choice, profiling and filtering in this game is not some unforgivable social injustice.

1.) A player with berserker gear is more likely (of course, not guaranteed) to know the importance of combo fields and group support.

2.) Even if that player does not know about combo fields and group support, at least that player has berserker gear and can somewhat contribute to damage. The rest of us will just try to carry him.

On a side note, I’m totally fine if you don’t like the elitism in this game. But berserker is a pretty moderate filter if you ask me. What are some alternatives?

1.) AP needing to be above a certain threshold taken seriously by even more people. It won’t be perfect, but at least it suggests some experience.

2.) Ping weapons ping utilities state builds. GW1 didn’t really have gear stat differences so people were asked to ping builds and traits. In this game most berserker groups don’t even gear check; they just leave it there in hopes of filtering out some/most non-berserkers.

3.) More statics and less PUGs. Right now asking for berserker is enough for some groups to go into LFG and find someone. The alternative isn’t that these groups become more inclusive; they will become more exclusive but you won’t notice it since they will no longer be interacting via LFG This is because just having berserker will make you “good enough” even if you suck at everything else.

Jerus.4350:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

if I switch out into PvT or anything else now I’m considered inexperienced? I can still solo dungeons in straight zerker, I’m still the same capable person so why is that second round of judgement passed? .

Snipped that out.

Why? because you’re consciously making a decision to make it easier on yourself while contributing less to the group.

It’s really as simple as that.

You’ll be doing less than half the damage you could have been doing and what’s the tradeoff there? It lets YOU have more defense so if YOU screw up you don’t die, no benefit to the group.

Why should anyone treat you like anything other than a selfish kitten or a noob if that’s how you’re acting? And at least personally, I have no problems with noobs, but people who know better still sticking in that defensive gear… why? I mean at least stack healing power and do something there, it’s unneeded but it’s at least something that can be used.

This is the problem with the content and because of how the content has been balanced, this type of perspective was allowed to come into fruition, I am proposing to rebalance the content to rebalance the perspective, go back to my very first post in this thread, look at my suggestions, my very first post here, look at the state of the game, there is a clear divide in the community because of how content is treated and balanced and what happens to people that make different choices, that divide is allowed to fester. I am proposing content where people can find a place regardless if where they are coming from as long as you can own up to your game. Berserker, PvT, Clerics, Settler’s, Celestial, everything becomes horizontal tools, everyone who has made different decisions can collaborate in a competitive environment as long as they are capitalizing on the advantages their builds can provide.

DaveGan.8065:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

DaveGan.8065:

—snip—

I will admit I fall under point 2 but here’s what I believe. I believe that if I am to be judged, I should be judged by what I am capable of not what I dress in.

As I pointed out to Loki, berserker groups look significantly stronger than non-berserker groups not only because of the berserker gear, but also because that group is more likely to bring group buffs and take advantage of combo fields (and these are the groups you see on Youtube).

Do you know why some of us ask for berserkers then? It’s a filter. It’s profiling. And because this game has equality of opportunity and gearing is a choice, profiling and filtering in this game is not some unforgivable social injustice.

1.) A player with berserker gear is more likely (of course, not guaranteed) to know the importance of combo fields and group support.

2.) Even if that player does not know about combo fields and group support, at least that player has berserker gear and can somewhat contribute to damage. The rest of us will just try to carry him.

On a side note, I’m totally fine if you don’t like the elitism in this game. But berserker is a pretty moderate filter if you ask me. What are some alternatives?

1.) AP needing to be above a certain threshold taken seriously by even more people. It won’t be perfect, but at least it suggests some experience.

2.) Ping weapons ping utilities state builds. GW1 didn’t really have gear stat differences so people were asked to ping builds and traits. In this game most berserker groups don’t even gear check; they just leave it there in hopes of filtering out some/most non-berserkers.

3.) More statics and less PUGs. Right now asking for berserker is enough for some groups to go into LFG and find someone. The alternative isn’t that these groups become more inclusive; they will become more exclusive but you won’t notice it since they will no longer be interacting via LFG This is because just having berserker will make you “good enough” even if you suck at everything else.

In regards to your first points, you don’t think that is an impressive leap in logic? “I’m more likely to know things if I wear a stat setup, use blast finishers etc”, the hammer trains in none EoTM Mist Wars says hello. Yes I know you clearly stated the statement is not always guaranteed but my god the direction is still there.

I honestly can’t give you any suggestion on filtering alternatives. I’ve always given everyone I met an honest chance, to get to know them, but I guess that is where I’m different.

If you’re going to gate the content in a way that makes other gear equally viable, you’re going to get one of three situations:

Most of you posting for changes here fall into at least one of these categories.

1.) Want the return of the trinity (will probably not happen)

2.) Want the end of elitism (I guarantee you, anything resembling roles will make it worse, because others will not be able to carry you if you fail/suck)

3.) Bandwagon fanbois reposting an idea from WoodenPotatoes that merely sounded catchy (most of us have seen the video, and I personally think no content in this game should ever reward a spec as forgiving as that)

4.) Have never done dungeon content more difficult than AC or CoF and don’t understand/realize the extent of active defense

5.) Want change for the sake of change (rather than the sake of improving)
———

Again I am not really understanding the opposite side of these arguments. If would add more depth to the game and keep people playing more and longer. All of these pro berserker meta points you give seem like rubbish to me.

1.) No we’re not asking for a trinity, we’re asking other sets to be useful instead of the mass majority of pve being done as a full glass cannon spec. Again I bring this argument up, why did they even bother to add stats in this game at all if none of it even matters other then Berserker? What is the fear here, that you might be asked to wear a different armor set once in awhile and not be able to see giant numbers?

2.) Never be able to stop elitism in any game, period. There is probably elitists in Goat Simulator.

3. ) I barely know who Woodenpotatoes is other then folks dropping his name from time to time. All I am doing is agreeing to some of the points the person in this video is making, how the stats in this game are all wonky.

4.) I have done every dungeon a very large amount of times. While I agree AC and CM should be on the easier side, same with story modes. I really think its cheesy/boring to have a whole group be pure glass cannon, run past all mobs with no consequence, stack in the corner and go AFK and have the boss die in 3 seconds. I’m not insulting anyone who does find that fun and not to get mad at others for not finding that fun. I’m just curious as to what game you previously came from before GW2.

5.) No its not change for the sake of change, its obviously something a lot of players (especially new players) don’t understand about the game design and want to improve upon. We’re trying to improve the game and many have given suggestions on how to do so and go about it. I’m going to ask this again, for the people who get annoyed at others for wanting other gear sets to be as viable as berserkers , what is the flippin point of even having other gear stats then? Or skills that do anything other then pure damage? If my berserker wearing guardian has the same about of healing and damage mitigation as a soliders/cleric/nomad guardian and they are just wasted stats, why even have armor/weapon/trait stats? Again, just make it closer to Team Fortress 2 where just all classes bring some skill or mechanic to the group and there are no stats.

Now I’m sure some pro meta/status quo players are going to respond and just tell me to “go play something else then n00b” or something. But perhaps its these players that should find something else to play because I think your playing the wrong genre of games . I’m very confused as to why people play games set in a fantasy setting with a mage, warrior, rogue, and cleric arch type if in fact they do not really like that sort of thing.

Bran.7425:

Harper.4173:

They are too strong. You shouldn’t be surviving without all of your active defenses.

Clearly the most important and key aspect of the active defense system is the dodge system.
Passive stats should help but not as much so that people can make do without dodges.

Regarding the game design issues – there’s a lot there you have to look at.

GW2 sells itself as a casual game for casual people. Casual doesn’t necessarily mean bad but usually it means less invested, less knowledgeable, less competent players. I’m sorry to say it but that’s the way it is.

A guy putting in 2-3 hours a week will never really be better at a game than a guy putting in 20-30 hours per week.

GW2’s “wait for it super mega heavy hitting attack” strategy is designed to make the encounters more approachable by the casual player base.
The entire encounter system in dungeons is made not very hard because the golden rule seems to have been " everyone should be able to complete regardless of how clueless or bad they are".

And it is working.

Problem one not every profession and build will have the same total number of active defenses. If dodge is to be basis for the combat then there would not be a big a difference between the extremes on the professions (all) necromancer(s) being on one end and (some) thief builds on the other.

Not sure if the ‘casual’ game will ever have the challenge you desire out of it, but make that its own argument.

Doesn’t effect me at all, I play the game as a partial substitute for the lack of table top rpg groups in my area as my normal groups have gotten to the too busy to get together anymore (work, kids, other hobbies etc).

However I still find your argument lacking and the ‘passive stat are too strong because they are too strong’ backbone of the discusses is boring me and is complete invalidated by the fact that nearly every balance change in the game is centered around a complete different mode of play with completely different concerns.

Necro has less dodges because necro has a high health pool. And two health bars.

Passive stats are strong and they reward lazy and passive gameplay and that’s why i feel they should not be made stronger. They’re strong enough as it is.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I honestly can’t give you any suggestion on filtering alternatives. I’ve always given everyone I met an honest chance, to get to know them, but I guess that is where I’m different.

To be brutally honest, most people aren’t about fairness, but quickness in this game. As I mentioned before, gear is a choice everyone can make and equality of opportunity exists for the most part.

Referencing your unquoted bit, I’m pretty sure you understood my logic, but intentionally chose not to accept it. You showed your understanding when you brought up “filtering alternatives”.

You also don’t need to be so passive aggressive or personal. I’m not very elitist myself (I generally ask for 80 zerkers but do not check gear or traits), nor do I do many dungeons anymore. However, I absolutely support a group’s right to prioritize quickness over fairness even with the use of not-always-reliable filtering and profiling.

Wolfmoon.2976:

snip

Let me be brutally honest with you too. You seem to be more against the “meta” than the “berserker” in “berserker meta”.

This idea is perfectly fine, but is little more than naive idealism.

IllegalChocolate, What you’re asking for can’t happen without the introduction of the trinity system. You’re asking for a reason to stack defense and have it be just as useful… you’re asking for tanks to exist, and if you count healing power as well… you’re asking for healers… NO

Just no, this isn’t that kind of game, stop it.

DaveGan.8065:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I honestly can’t give you any suggestion on filtering alternatives. I’ve always given everyone I met an honest chance, to get to know them, but I guess that is where I’m different.

To be brutally honest, most people aren’t about fairness, but quickness in this game. As I mentioned before, gear is a choice everyone can make and equality of opportunity exists for the most part.

Referencing your unquoted bit, I’m pretty sure you understood my logic, but intentionally chose not to accept it. You showed your understanding when you brought up “filtering alternatives”.

You also don’t need to be so passive aggressive or personal. I’m not very elitist myself (I generally ask for 80 zerkers but do not check gear or traits), nor do I do many dungeons anymore. However, I absolutely support a group’s right to prioritize quickness over fairness even with the use of not-always-reliable filtering and profiling.

I understand this mentality as my previous proposals seek to rebalance the setups that allow multitudes of ideologies be competitive in the terms of quickness. I am not asking for everyone to slow down, I am asking for everyone the ability to be competitive as long as the dedication is as strong. Take a look at my previous suggestions that don’t have me wailing on the zerker meta from a personal opinion standpoint, I personally find them reasonable.

Flawed, but I believe my ideas to be in the right direction as far as making content that can be considered threatening but with its own forgiving systems.

Jerus.4350:

IllegalChocolate, What you’re asking for can’t happen without the introduction of the trinity system. You’re asking for a reason to stack defense and have it be just as useful… you’re asking for tanks to exist, and if you count healing power as well… you’re asking for healers… NO

Just no, this isn’t that kind of game, stop it.

WvW and Spvp says hello.

EDIT: and im not asking for a mandatory trinity system you dolt, I am asking for it to be a competitive option along with hybrids as long as your player skill is maximum

EDIT 2: What I am trying to achieve here is a mentality where stats and skill can no longer be associated with each other in which case the content has to allow this to happen. If you are bad, its because we clearly saw you do something stupid.

Jerus.4350:

IllegalChocolate, What you’re asking for can’t happen without the introduction of the trinity system. You’re asking for a reason to stack defense and have it be just as useful… you’re asking for tanks to exist, and if you count healing power as well… you’re asking for healers… NO

Just no, this isn’t that kind of game, stop it.

I remember reading a thread in the DnT forums by the regulars regarding using warrior with some Knight gear (high toughness) to tank the Archdiviner. The idea of using aggro wasn’t to facetank the damage, but to keep the boss in place (or at least moving and angled predictably) so everyone else could unload perfect DPS rotations without having to chase/dodge/kite.

I would be very receptive to this idea, but reiterate that toughness anchors fell out of favor because toughness alone was found to be insufficient at keeping aggro once players started mastering encounters and meleeing them for more damage.

I would also like to reemphasize that such a character would be more “anchor” (keep boss in one place than “tank” (facetank hits), and would require a higher, not lower, degree of skill.

Where am I going with this? I would be perfectly fine if the toughness trait lines (and even gear with high toughness) had an effect that greatly increased aggro. But facetank-friendly anchoring should never be supported or encouraged by this game.

Edit: really rough instantyolo proposal: perhaps the toughness tree should carry something like +2x threat, the power/precision/ferocity lines +1x each, and healing/vitality -1x (negative). Anchors could add toughness for aggro, but if they went overboard (vitality/healing) they would quickly lose aggro to DPS specced players.

Yes I realize the DPS traits are effectively multiplicative, so the numbers would need to be scaled accordingly. I just wanted to provide a quick illustration.

Toughness + Power + Precision player: +4x aggro
Power + Precision + Ferocity player: +3x aggro
Toughness + Power + Healing Power player: +2x aggro
Toughness + Power + Vitality player: +2x aggro
Toughness + Healing Power + Vitality player: +0x aggro

Loki.8793:

No, GW2 wasn’t made to be a casual game for casual players. GW2 was designed to be an Esports game. The open world content and dynamic events were intended to be casual. Dungeons, and team based content, were all intended to be difficult and challenging. Go look at the early developer interviews during beta. They stated they wanted the story paths of dungeons to be completable with any composition, but for the explorable paths to be some of the most difficult content in GW2 and required coordination and communication in the team to complete. It ended up failing, however, due to bad dungeon design, and then when people figured out how to exploit it and run past most of the content, people got this silly idea that it was designed to be casual.

A lot of things were said during development – if dungeons were indeed intended to be challenging then given what we got on release and what we have today I must conclude that they gave up on that idea.

Why? Because dungeons aren’t challenging and it’s pretty clear no dungeon except Arah was intended to be a challenge.

The trash in most of them is just that – trash.
There are very predictable boss mechanics and very simple strategies that need to be applied.

There is no penalty for failure whatsoever. You wipe? Res and repeat. – Just that fact should give you an indication of how challenging they were designed to be.

In GW1 if your party wiped in a dungeon death penalty would accumulate – get enought of it and you had to restart. That was a challenge – not a huge one but a challenge.

It was designed so you couldn’t fail it over and over and over again and then finally beat it.

Mobs were dangerous. The design of some dungeons actually needed players to explore and use their mind to solve puzzles sometimes – not just fight mobs.

The fact that they said they intended something to be a certain way doesn’t mean they did it and doesn’t mean they kept true to their word.

I remember when they said they intended legendary weapons to be a truly astonishing feat – a coronation of your achievements in game.

Look at what legendary weapons ended up being – a trading post list after you’ve grinded all your karma.
Heck – you can buy one straight up with cash if you convert cash to gems in the gem store.

Just because they said it does not make it true . How much of the original manifesto has been scrapped or reworked?

If you think dungeons weren’t designed to be casual you’re wrong. Dead wrong.
You mention people “exploiting” by running past mobs but it’s obvious that if they didn’t want you running past them they could have made it so that you couldn’t progress until you cleared a room. Or given you better rewards based on how much you kill.

Your arguments are really bad since all you’ve got to go on is what they said they wanted at one point – but the game itself contradicts you – what we have in game now does not match what they promised and said they would do. Not for dungeons and not for a lot of things.

DaveGan.8065:

Jerus.4350:

IllegalChocolate, What you’re asking for can’t happen without the introduction of the trinity system. You’re asking for a reason to stack defense and have it be just as useful… you’re asking for tanks to exist, and if you count healing power as well… you’re asking for healers… NO

Just no, this isn’t that kind of game, stop it.

I remember reading a thread in the DnT forums by the regulars regarding using warrior with some Knight gear (high toughness) to tank the Archdiviner. The idea of using aggro wasn’t to facetank the damage, but to keep the boss in place (or at least moving and angled predictably) so everyone else could unload perfect DPS rotations without having to chase/dodge/kite.

I would be very receptive to this idea, but reiterate that toughness anchors fell out of favor because toughness alone was found to be insufficient at keeping aggro once players started mastering encounters and meleeing them for more damage.

I would also like to reemphasize that such a character would be more “anchor” (keep boss in one place than “tank” (facetank hits), and would require a higher, not lower, degree of skill.

Where am I going with this? I would be perfectly fine if the toughness trait lines (and even gear with high toughness) had an effect that greatly increased aggro. But facetank-friendly anchoring should never be supported or encouraged by this game.

Edit: really rough instantyolo proposal: perhaps the toughness tree should carry 4x threat, the power/precision/ferocity lines 1x each, and healing/vitality -1x (negative). Anchors could add toughness for aggro, but if they went overboard (vitality/healing) they would quickly lose aggro to DPS specced players.

a strategy is quite doable on the archdiviner, extremely easy to do using a net turret + rifle + supply crate setup as an engineer, regardless of toughness or not. Whether the loss in damage was worth it was a different discussion.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

DaveGan.8065:

—snip—

I will admit I fall under point 2 but here’s what I believe. I believe that if I am to be judged, I should be judged by what I am capable of not what I dress in. In the current values of the zerker meta, I am praised as experienced because I can roll in zerker, now if I switch out into PvT or anything else now I’m considered inexperienced? I can still solo dungeons in straight zerker, I’m still the same capable person so why is that second round of judgement passed? does that not sound silly to you? This is what the zerker meta teaches, to judge people based on their character sheets not who they are or what they are capable of this is how it is practiced in groups, this is how people behave in discussion, therefore this is what it is. In sPvP and WvW, if you wanted to play bunker or a balanced setup, you can still find a place, damage? you bet, support? most def at the head of the hammer train. The Zerker Meta in PvE? unless you run full zerker you have no place there is no tolerance for you.

Some levels of elitism are justified, If I present poor motor capabilities and the refusal to learn to succeed, yes that is completely justified in that situation, but if I am judged before I am even seen in combat, because I have higher health, because I have more armor? Get Real. Elitism is fine as long as there is justification behind it, not so much if the reasons are absurd. The zerker meta balls up everyone outside of their ideals and labels them as inferior, I don’t take kindly to people that do that especially when they can’t even deliver when placed outside of their comfort zone.

It even seems more silly now that you mentioned that this is a “casual game for casual players”, wouldn’t that make the entirety of the “zerker meta” that much more of a joke? Elite zerker dungeon speed runners OF A GAME MEANT FOR CASUALS, yeah that’s fantastic to put on the resume.

You don’t get it.

You’re going to be judged first and foremost by your intentions and objectives.

People (like me) want to play with similarly minded people. First and foremost I will judge your mentality. I don’t care if you’re the world’s best dodger or most competent player.
If you’re not in the gear that gives the best clear times then obviously fast clear times are not your #1 absolute priority and if that’s the case we have no business playing together.

I won’t play with players who don’t play like me – and that’s something nobody can force me to do. The way I filter these players is my business. If feel that what gear you’re in matters then that’s my filter for the parties and runs I set-up.

It doesn’t have to be right, wrong or fair. It’s my choice.

The zerker meta teaches people to judge and categorize based on what goals people have. If you’re not running the gear that indicates to me our goals are the same – then why should we party up?

The meta has nothing to do with gear or dps. If another set or build was made the best and became the meta people would use that as an indicator and still try to party up with similarly minded people.

There’s also a justification behind this – I don’t want to take any chances – sure you could be a good player and not have my exact mindset but am I going to take the time to test it for the millionth time? No.

I want people who straight up prove they’re there for the same reason I am. I want fast rewards. I want clean runs with no wipes where everybody knows the encounter by heart and it all goes down as easy as A B C.

Am I going to chance the quality and enjoyment of my gaming experience and test out every player that’s not meta just because " he might be good" and I " should give him a chance to prove himself in combat" ? No.

Why? Because I’ve got a limited time to play and limited patience. Finding up that person is not up to par at the worst possible time is not efficient and is not fun. It really kills the enjoyment for me if a run goes badly. So sorry – as selfish as it might be I won’t risk it. I’ll stick to the chances I get with meta players.