(edited by DiogoSilva.7089)
There's no reward for higher lvl content.
Anet has successfully decoupled gear treadmill (the reason I don’t like other games) from the ability to be successful and rewarded. They have done that by recognizing that the pablum of gear treadmill linked to progression that other MMO’s give you is NOT the only way to provide players an engaging MMO experience.
That is also wrong.
GW2 has gear treadmill because of poor balance and design. When you grind to get a full set of berserker gear, and then get into raids or high level fractals and you find yourself get kicked because you don’t have condition gear, what is that? Is that not gear treadmill?
I give you: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stat_changing
You are welcome.
Also all you need for raids is exotic if you can pull your weight. Hardly a gear treadmill when you can get a full set of decent gear in aproximately 3 hours or less.
Ever increasing stats results in less and less content being available since the old stuff becomes trivial and the gear useless.
This is why most of WoW is dead content only ever visited for mount/achievement farming. Blizzard can sort of compensate for this by sheer size since they can almost(*) push out new content fast enough to keep people interested, however they still needed an entire expansion to “fix” their game as half the “vanilla” areas were dead as were the areas of all expansions between “vanilla” and Cataclysm. This was a direct result of the gear and level threadmill (compounded by their tendency to fully redesign classes each expansion)
Anet just isn’t big enough to support something like that, so keeping old content relevant by providing horizontal progression is an extremely progressive and smart move (either that or you’d have to scale players down, and then what have you gained? An even bigger balancing nightmare?). It gives new (or returning players) years of content to wade through that all is still relevant (arguably they messed up here with LS1, but that’s another topic), unlike in treadmill games where only the stuff from the latest expansion or even content update is actually relevant.
- yes: almost, keeping people busy enough so they dont’get bored and quit before the next major update is something even Blizzard has been struggling with since vanilla WoW
(edited by marelooke.9708)
I think one important difference is that both FF14 and WoW are subscription driven games.
I played 8 years of WoW initially, and recently tried a free month of FF14, and they both feel significantly more polished and actively developed. But, being subscription based, that is quite expected, as there is a lot of more dependable income to move around for development purposes.
So in a certain way it is disappointing to see GW2 be developed so slowly (lack of treadmill rewards wouldn’t be a big issue with faster development), but at the same time because it is also much better value than WoW or FF14 because I pay significantly less here.
I guess it depends on how you value content as a newer player I find there is tons to unlock with cosmetics.
(edited by Ryou.2398)
I can’t exactly grasp what I am feeling and why but GW2 feels extremely shallow to me.
Ever increasing stats results in less and less content being available since the old stuff becomes trivial and the gear useless.
It also results in lowering the amount of returning players. At least where myself and my friends are concerned, and I doubt we are so unique as to be the only people that feel this way.
Like many others I routinely take breaks from MMOs, especially when they have little content to provide.
While on such a break, Guild wars sends me an email that an expansion is starting, and I should check it out. What does it add? New story, new skins, and models and new areas to explore! I also find out the WvW has been updated, new maps, new rewards.
All we have to do is…
*Jump back into the game
And we can enjoy the new story and new PvP changes to their fullest extent.
I share it with all my friends and we jump back into Tyria for the next 4-8 months tearing it up and having a blast the whole time. PvP, collecting, or PvE we are back the next day doing the content we love. Our classes are old friends we remember, with some new additions but 100% familiar. and while the meta has changed over time
WoW on the other hand sends me an email about the new story, in the new expansion telling me to check it out. Well what does it add? New story, new skins and models and new areas to explore. The PvP has been updated with new maps and rewards. It all sounds great!
All we have to do is…
*Jump back into the game
*Level our character 10 more levels
*Learn the entirely new/revamped mechanics for our classes, which sometimes change their roles completely.
*Farm the new currency to upgrade our gear to raid level
*Join a raiding guild or start our own
*Raid each wing, and gear up between raid tiers, while waiting for more story
*Gear up (or unlock talents) with the new PvP system
And we can enjoy the new story and new PvP changes to their fullest extent.
This doesn’t even include the small breaks for a month or two where you miss a raid tier, or a PvP season. guess what? Time to play catch up grinding the “Old” content to get up to a level where you can play the new content.
I share this with my friends and we discuss at length on discord if we really want to go through another WoW expansion. If we do return, it is with much less excitement than a game like GW2, because we know we are in for 4 hours of work we don’t want to do, for ever 1 hour of fun that we do want.
GW1 and GW2 did a great job of keeping this in check. I always feel welcomed back if I leave, and eager to play again when I come back. Because I know when I return I can start doing whatever I want to do.
New legendary armor? I can start working on it day 1.
New jumping puzzles? I can head there immediately.
New story? Instantly be immersed in the lore of Tyria.
New _______? It’s all available to me because there is no power creep, or vertical progression ever.
Anet has successfully decoupled gear treadmill (the reason I don’t like other games) from the ability to be successful and rewarded. They have done that by recognizing that the pablum of gear treadmill linked to progression that other MMO’s give you is NOT the only way to provide players an engaging MMO experience.
That is also wrong.
GW2 has gear treadmill because of poor balance and design. When you grind to get a full set of berserker gear, and then get into raids or high level fractals and you find yourself get kicked because you don’t have condition gear, what is that? Is that not gear treadmill?
No, that is not what people typically refer to as gear treadmill. So no, you are incorrect. People kicking you because of gear they think you should have is not the same as obtaining higher levels of gear to advance to the next level of raid or content.
I agree that high level content is not rewarding… but do you know why you feel that way? Its because you needed to get the end level items (ascended gear) before you could even do that content.
As a matter of fact, you don’t. If you play fractals, you’ll likely have all the resources in place to get and upgrade your ascended equipment by the time you reach the fractal levels that require that much agony resistance. If you play raids, you can in fact play them just as well in exotics if you know what you’re doing.
Not true. At all. You can get the accessories and trinkets but armor rarely if ever drops.
You will get stuck at around level 50-55. You can’t go further because you don’t have enough slots for the agony resist. I speak from personal experience. The only way to go further is to start slotting +11s into your gear and that gets really expensive/dumb. I did tier 2 fractals (dailies plus others) for 3 months and only found 2 rings and 1 weapon during that time. No armor whatsoever.
Like I said before, a lot of of folks saying they get ascended gear like candy probably already have 1 or more ascended sets. You don’t actually start getting them with any degree of regularity (and even then its pretty kitten rare) until T4 fractals and raids (which I haven’t done but I’ve heard you can acquire them from there easily).
(edited by Will.9785)
Ever increasing stats results in less and less content being available since the old stuff becomes trivial and the gear useless.
It also results in lowering the amount of returning players. At least where myself and my friends are concerned, and I doubt we are so unique as to be the only people that feel this way.
Like many others I routinely take breaks from MMOs, especially when they have little content to provide.
While on such a break, Guild wars sends me an email that an expansion is starting, and I should check it out. What does it add? New story, new skins, and models and new areas to explore! I also find out the WvW has been updated, new maps, new rewards.
All we have to do is…
*Jump back into the game
And we can enjoy the new story and new PvP changes to their fullest extent.I share it with all my friends and we jump back into Tyria for the next 4-8 months tearing it up and having a blast the whole time. PvP, collecting, or PvE we are back the next day doing the content we love. Our classes are old friends we remember, with some new additions but 100% familiar. and while the meta has changed over time
WoW on the other hand sends me an email about the new story, in the new expansion telling me to check it out. Well what does it add? New story, new skins and models and new areas to explore. The PvP has been updated with new maps and rewards. It all sounds great!
All we have to do is…
*Jump back into the game
*Level our character 10 more levels
*Learn the entirely new/revamped mechanics for our classes, which sometimes change their roles completely.
*Farm the new currency to upgrade our gear to raid level
*Join a raiding guild or start our own
*Raid each wing, and gear up between raid tiers, while waiting for more story
*Gear up (or unlock talents) with the new PvP system
And we can enjoy the new story and new PvP changes to their fullest extent.This doesn’t even include the small breaks for a month or two where you miss a raid tier, or a PvP season. guess what? Time to play catch up grinding the “Old” content to get up to a level where you can play the new content.
I share this with my friends and we discuss at length on discord if we really want to go through another WoW expansion. If we do return, it is with much less excitement than a game like GW2, because we know we are in for 4 hours of work we don’t want to do, for ever 1 hour of fun that we do want.
GW1 and GW2 did a great job of keeping this in check. I always feel welcomed back if I leave, and eager to play again when I come back. Because I know when I return I can start doing whatever I want to do.
New legendary armor? I can start working on it day 1.
New jumping puzzles? I can head there immediately.
New story? Instantly be immersed in the lore of Tyria.
New _______? It’s all available to me because there is no power creep, or vertical progression ever.
Amazing post, end thread.
Ever increasing stats results in less and less content being available since the old stuff becomes trivial and the gear useless.
It also results in lowering the amount of returning players. At least where myself and my friends are concerned, and I doubt we are so unique as to be the only people that feel this way.
Like many others I routinely take breaks from MMOs, especially when they have little content to provide.
While on such a break, Guild wars sends me an email that an expansion is starting, and I should check it out. What does it add? New story, new skins, and models and new areas to explore! I also find out the WvW has been updated, new maps, new rewards.
All we have to do is…
*Jump back into the game
And we can enjoy the new story and new PvP changes to their fullest extent.I share it with all my friends and we jump back into Tyria for the next 4-8 months tearing it up and having a blast the whole time. PvP, collecting, or PvE we are back the next day doing the content we love. Our classes are old friends we remember, with some new additions but 100% familiar. and while the meta has changed over time
WoW on the other hand sends me an email about the new story, in the new expansion telling me to check it out. Well what does it add? New story, new skins and models and new areas to explore. The PvP has been updated with new maps and rewards. It all sounds great!
All we have to do is…
*Jump back into the game
*Level our character 10 more levels
*Learn the entirely new/revamped mechanics for our classes, which sometimes change their roles completely.
*Farm the new currency to upgrade our gear to raid level
*Join a raiding guild or start our own
*Raid each wing, and gear up between raid tiers, while waiting for more story
*Gear up (or unlock talents) with the new PvP system
And we can enjoy the new story and new PvP changes to their fullest extent.This doesn’t even include the small breaks for a month or two where you miss a raid tier, or a PvP season. guess what? Time to play catch up grinding the “Old” content to get up to a level where you can play the new content.
I share this with my friends and we discuss at length on discord if we really want to go through another WoW expansion. If we do return, it is with much less excitement than a game like GW2, because we know we are in for 4 hours of work we don’t want to do, for ever 1 hour of fun that we do want.
GW1 and GW2 did a great job of keeping this in check. I always feel welcomed back if I leave, and eager to play again when I come back. Because I know when I return I can start doing whatever I want to do.
New legendary armor? I can start working on it day 1.
New jumping puzzles? I can head there immediately.
New story? Instantly be immersed in the lore of Tyria.
New _______? It’s all available to me because there is no power creep, or vertical progression ever.Amazing post, end thread.
nailed it. Only thing i would add is GW is over 10 years old, its never been about stats in those 10 years and never will be, because of benefits as described above.
“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize
Not true. At all. You can get the accessories and trinkets but armor rarely if ever drops.
You will get stuck at around level 50-55. You can’t go further because you don’t have enough slots for the agony resist. I speak from personal experience. The only way to go further is to start slotting +11s into your gear and that gets really expensive/dumb. I did tier 2 fractals (dailies plus others) for 3 months and only found 2 rings and 1 weapon during that time. No armor whatsoever.Like I said before, a lot of of folks saying they get ascended gear like candy probably already have 1 or more ascended sets. You don’t actually start getting them with any degree of regularity (and even then its pretty kitten rare) until T4 fractals and raids (which I haven’t done but I’ve heard you can acquire them from there easily).
You can get all the way through t3 with just trinkets.
Trinkets provide 2(back) + 2 accessory + 6(rings) slots.
Using +9 infusions you get 90 AR. You can get another 15 Anguished Tear of Alba. Scale 75 which is the last in t3 requires 106. One AR short isn’t going to make a huge difference and you can just stick a +10 somewhere if you think it matters.
I give you: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stat_changing
You are welcome.
Also all you need for raids is exotic if you can pull your weight. Hardly a gear treadmill when you can get a full set of decent gear in aproximately 3 hours or less.
Stat swapping is a bandaid solution.
If I need berserker for X content and viper for Y content, how much would a daily or a weekly swap swap cost me, taking into account the price of upgrades too?
No, that is not what people typically refer to as gear treadmill. So no, you are incorrect. People kicking you because of gear they think you should have is not the same as obtaining higher levels of gear to advance to the next level of raid or content.
If your DPS gear gets outdated by new gear that offers superior DPS, then you have a case of higher level gear being released over time. People will kick because you’re having mathematically inferior stats than you should have.
Not true. At all. You can get the accessories and trinkets but armor rarely if ever drops.
You will get stuck at around level 50-55. You can’t go further because you don’t have enough slots for the agony resist. I speak from personal experience. The only way to go further is to start slotting +11s into your gear and that gets really expensive/dumb. I did tier 2 fractals (dailies plus others) for 3 months and only found 2 rings and 1 weapon during that time. No armor whatsoever.Like I said before, a lot of of folks saying they get ascended gear like candy probably already have 1 or more ascended sets. You don’t actually start getting them with any degree of regularity (and even then its pretty kitten rare) until T4 fractals and raids (which I haven’t done but I’ve heard you can acquire them from there easily).
You can get all the way through t3 with just trinkets.
Trinkets provide 2(back) + 2 accessory + 6(rings) slots.Using +9 infusions you get 90 AR. You can get another 15 Anguished Tear of Alba. Scale 75 which is the last in t3 requires 106. One AR short isn’t going to make a huge difference and you can just stick a +10 somewhere if you think it matters.
T3 is not T4. I did some T3 (the ones I could do) and it still didn’t drop squat.
I give you: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stat_changing
You are welcome.
Also all you need for raids is exotic if you can pull your weight. Hardly a gear treadmill when you can get a full set of decent gear in aproximately 3 hours or less.Stat swapping is a bandaid solution.
If I need berserker for X content and viper for Y content, how much would a daily or a weekly swap swap cost me, taking into account the price of upgrades too?
No, that is not what people typically refer to as gear treadmill. So no, you are incorrect. People kicking you because of gear they think you should have is not the same as obtaining higher levels of gear to advance to the next level of raid or content.
If your DPS gear gets outdated by new gear that offers superior DPS, then you have a case of higher level gear being released over time. People will kick because you’re having mathematically inferior stats than you should have.
Well ofcourse after you have your first berserker armor set you slowly get more boxes and then stat swap the second armor set to vipers now you got condi and power build.
(edited by Linken.6345)
Anet has successfully decoupled gear treadmill (the reason I don’t like other games) from the ability to be successful and rewarded. They have done that by recognizing that the pablum of gear treadmill linked to progression that other MMO’s give you is NOT the only way to provide players an engaging MMO experience.
That is also wrong.
GW2 has gear treadmill because of poor balance and design. When you grind to get a full set of berserker gear, and then get into raids or high level fractals and you find yourself get kicked because you don’t have condition gear, what is that? Is that not gear treadmill?
If, in a future expansion, your next elite spec happens to rely on tank stats, or heal stats, or boon duration stats, and becoems the only meta pick for your entire profession, what can you do to not get yourself kicked, outside of grinding for a new set of stats?
Thing is, this is going to be incredibly hard for Anet to balance right, because many stat combinations overlap to achieve the same purpose. So players will simply pick whichever stat set is mathematically the best one for that given role.
In order to avoid gear treadmill in GW2, stat sets must become stagnant so that players will never need to replace them for superior combinations in the future. Alternatively, Anet can also make stat swapping free and convenient, but the fact that Anet has been willing to sacrifice game design and reward satisfaction for the sake of their economy, and the fact that they decided stat swapping should have been a privilege behind legendary grind instead of a core game mechanic, show that GW2 will very likely continue to be a gear treadmill game.
That’s not exactly successful game design.
If you have ascended gear it can be easily converted to condition gear. This treadmill doesn’t exist. I just switched three guys to condition gear without batting an eye.
I give you: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stat_changing
You are welcome.
Also all you need for raids is exotic if you can pull your weight. Hardly a gear treadmill when you can get a full set of decent gear in aproximately 3 hours or less.Stat swapping is a bandaid solution.
If I need berserker for X content and viper for Y content, how much would a daily or a weekly swap swap cost me, taking into account the price of upgrades too?
… if you’re able to swap sets, you’re not looking at a gear treadmill. A gear treadmill leaves the previous set completely obsolete.
If you have Berzerker stats for X content, but want Viper for Y content, then either switch to vipers and do Y content, forsaking X content, or do X content until you can afford a second set for Vipers for Y content.
I give you: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stat_changing
You are welcome.
Also all you need for raids is exotic if you can pull your weight. Hardly a gear treadmill when you can get a full set of decent gear in aproximately 3 hours or less.Stat swapping is a bandaid solution.
If I need berserker for X content and viper for Y content, how much would a daily or a weekly swap swap cost me, taking into account the price of upgrades too?
No, that is not what people typically refer to as gear treadmill. So no, you are incorrect. People kicking you because of gear they think you should have is not the same as obtaining higher levels of gear to advance to the next level of raid or content.
If your DPS gear gets outdated by new gear that offers superior DPS, then you have a case of higher level gear being released over time. People will kick because you’re having mathematically inferior stats than you should have.
Maybe, but that’s not what people mean by gear treadmill. What you are talking about is a stat swap, not a higher tier, so again, that’s not what is typically defined as a gear treadmill. You’re old set isn’t obsolete because people don’t want you to use it. Zerker gearing is STILL highly relevant for every class in this game.
Even if you want to define it that way … I still don’t see a problem. Getting an alternate set of exotic gear is an easy matter; nothing that any reasonable person would call a treadmill.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
I started this game about five months ago,
So I got all of my ascended armor and weapons and trinkets (even the underwater stuff), and filled them with the best infusions and upgrade components.
I work 75 hours/week, and don’t have tons of time.
uhhhh, riiiight. this all gels np.
Gear treadmill is a tactic to trap you into playing. I say trap because there are thousands of awesome games out there to play and if the goal of a game is to dangle carrot after carrot in hopes that you’ll be tricked into choosing to play that game instead of what you feel like playing at that moment.
What I don’t understand is, we have all this technology, communication and hard drive space, why do people want whatever game they are currently playing to do everything every other game does simultaneously? If you want a gear treadmill game, pick one. If you want a casual game, pick one. If you want a hard core game, pick one. And whatever you pick, does not make those other choices disappear.