Guild Wars 2

Nobody’s stopping you from running Nomads Book Heal Guard in dungeons if you really wanted to.

Full zerk = allows your group to quickly finish the dungeon while having a higher risk of wiping (higher if unfamiliar with dungeon).

Full Nomads/clerics = allows your group to heal & “tank” your way through the dungeon but takes longer.

Then there’s all the gearsets which fall in between that.

You really can’t expect to finish a dungeon as quick as the Min/max zerker speed runners while wearing tank gear, that’s just stupid.

I actually have a nomad set. And the reality is most of the time it is much safer to wear berserker. If I’m wearing berserker, I can just spam aegis and blind and kill monster fast enough. If I’m wearing nomad, I can’t kill fast enough, and I run out of aegis and blind and I die.

There are a few situation it is much safer to wear nomad, for example mia trin, or temple of lyssa, or tanking elemental in aetherblade path puzzle. But most of the time I would say berserker is much safer.

Not only that many encounter require you to kill fast enough, for example AC burrow, grawl fractal, ooze in asura fractal etc.

I tried nomad, and I can honestly say in fractal, berserker is much safer 90% of the time except for a few odd situation that nomad can be better(but slower).

Yet it takes so long to find a proper berserker pug that my group doesn’t even bother anymore. We usually just 4 man if no 5th is online.

That or we just take any random, even if it’s slower to run through the path I prefer it over having to wait half an hour and having to kick a lot of people who never learned how to read.

Jana.6831:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Elite Arah soloers use cleric’s gear to solo orbs!

If they’re not thieves, yes. But it’s only one aspect of path 2, every other part is done in zerkers.

Path 2 doesn’t have orbs. Only paths 3/4. Also mesmers don’t need cleric’s to make it.

Taku.6352:

Jana.6831:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Elite Arah soloers use cleric’s gear to solo orbs!

If they’re not thieves, yes. But it’s only one aspect of path 2, every other part is done in zerkers.

Path 2 doesn’t have orbs. Only paths 3/4. Also mesmers don’t need cleric’s to make it.

Neither do warriors (with perfect execution).

The point is:

If you want the zerker meta to be gone, you would have to introduce the trinity.

As long as you can succeed by just having DD’s piled up in a group, more damage is the way to go.

So, the only way to end this, would be implementing a tank/healer/damage combo, with different “roles”, you know, like in a RPG (the R stands for Role in traditional games, in GW2 it stands for RNG, yes this is a Random number generator Playing Game).

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I will state that there is still team work involved in many of the execute strats that are used heavily in content. Team blast stacks of might, vuln, fury, with quickness que in deep freeze ice bow with everyone doing a “synergistic” kill combo is still considered team work. It is an offensive team spike.

Note that he didn’t say that there was no teamwork, just that there was no need for it. Teamwork of the sort you reference speeds things up but is generally not necessary to complete content.

You can play how you want.

I can play how I want.

I chose to play as full zerker. :P

Taku.6352:

Path 2 doesn’t have orbs. Only paths 3/4. Also mesmers don’t need cleric’s to make it.

Ok, sorry path 3. I only found one mesmer soloing path 3 and I don’t really get what he was doing – he switched to the human heal skill which doesn’t seem to have that much advantage, that was all. No idea what build he was running. So – maybe mesmers can do it as well with or without clerics, I don’t know too much about mesmers – and the same goes for

Neither do warriors (with perfect execution).

warriors.
Just wanted to point out that clerics could be only usuful for certain classes during the orb thingy but that doesn’t mean that they don’t run the rest in zerker’s, which they likely do (as I said the mesmer didn’t post anything about his build)(and I haven’t watched any warrior paths 3’s, yet. I just know that the teleports help thieves and they have got a lot of them).

tom.7468:

Perfect balance is unachieveable but why can every other big gaming company pull of a decent holy trinity and some a soft trinity as in you can do trinity roles with multiplie classes like this game was advertised in the first place. It comes down to long cooldown and weak skills not even worth using.
I dont know why people try to build for anything else than damage in PvE.
And ofcourse dodging press v to avoid that obvious red circle.

Thats the answer right there….The holy trinity works because the game specifically limits you and forces you to take a role.

Think about the most successful holy trinity based MMO. There is no Zerger like meta class of course else it wouldnt be a very successful holy trinity based game. But consider why tanks build tank builds or why cleric build cleric builds? most likely its because dungeons / raids would fail if there is isnt a healthy mix of tanks and clerics… now imagine if there were no dungeons and raids in that game… what would happen? would anyone go for a tank role or cleric role? The rest of the content which generally makes up the bulk of the game content doesnt really benefit from a tank role or cleric role.. Questing is always a lot slower when done through a tank or cleric.

DPS is always the prefered faster way for solo questing why? because ultimately in most of these games what we’re doing is we have to kill stuff.. and its DPS that gets us there.

Remove the trinity barrier (ie that you can only have 1 main role per class) and things would change.. you’d actually get the same thing that we have in Gw2. Everyone would go DPS and perhaps just switching a bit to cleric / tank for the dungeons and the raid.

You also mentioned soft trinity but lets be honest, games that offer soft trinities still have the same issues, each class has its meta and the soft trinity is really just a gimick for anyone who is a min maxer and if you’re not a min maxer then gw2 offers much more roles then just zerker!

Why do people build chars that dont focus just on damage for PvE ? simple because its fun. Why do people pick cleric in a trinity based game? sure clerics are needed and that surely is part of the reason but lets not forget DPS are also needed and so are tanks. They pick cleric because they like playing a support role. They enjoy it. Now in Gw2 there is no content where you will fail unless you have people 100% focused on support but there is still a benefit to having support so why should someone who enjoys playing support give it up just cause it is not the most efficient way of doing things (which is debatable to be honest… in some circumstances having a mix of damage and support can boost damage to high levels then having just everyone focused on damage)

Gw2 is and has always been a game about freedom. Metas are exactly the opposite of that. Metas are about being the best you can be and there is always 1 best. A holy trinity based game simply forces people into 3 different roles but they still each have a single meta.

Problem isnt that in Gw2 Damage is the most optimal way to go… thats true in every single game. Problem is that for some whatever reason people want to be forced to play what they enjoy, they seem to be incapable of just choosing it themselves of their own free will.

Jana.6831:

Ok, sorry path 3. I only found one mesmer soloing path 3 and I don’t really get what he was doing – he switched to the human heal skill which doesn’t seem to have that much advantage, that was all. No idea what build he was running. So – maybe mesmers can do it as well with or without clerics

A mesmer can solo it naked, without any healing skills.

problem with you wish is:

regarding stats:
power , main stat for dmg
precision , on crit 50% dmg extra. for 50% crit chance this equals to 25% more dps for same power
ferocity: raises the 50% extra dmg, maximum is 125-140%, resulting in added dps on crit
toughness: reduces dmg taken, more important as fights last longer. effectively adds to your health pool as vitality does, BUT completely ignored by condition dmg.
vitality: raises hitpoints, but has no influnence on healing, leaving you with a bigger healthpool but no way of refilling it…
healing: raises the amount of healing received, generally scaled to a proportion where it’s effectiveness is reduced to near nothing, and certainly inadequate to fill healthpools, especially when modified by vitality,
condition dmg: very usefull doing DOT to high armor targets, unfortunately most conditions are capped or just stacking duration,making multiple users of conditions lose on dmg, and time needed for stacking makes it useless for short duration combat
condition duration, very important with condition dmg as it works as a modifier actual % is the amount of DOT increase, no us for dps builds though, as most conitions are stackable to the max without additional duration (vunerability, blind, weakness)
boon duration, moderately usefull , due to longer uptime of fury and might, stability and protection. less usefull then p/p/f/cdmg/cdur…

leaving the order for dps
power (DPS)
precision (triggers/crits)
ferocity (modifier for crits)
(condition dmg) (additional DOT)
(condition duration) (additional DOT)
toughness (survivability)
healing/boon duration (survivability)
vitality (shouldn’t be neccesary)

and leaving the DOT (which are capped so max 1/group)
condition dmg (DOT)
condition duration (DOT modifier)
precision (trigger)
toughness/healing (survivability while DOT is stacking)
power (additional dps)
boon duration
ferocity (shouldn’t be neccesary, not enough power to modify)
vitality (shouldn’t be neccesary)

and for hybrids (which are capped so max 1/group)
power (dps)
condition dmg (dot)
precision (triggers)
condition duration (dot)
boon duration (might uptime/fury uptime)
(ferocity (dps))
toughness/healing (survival while building stacks)
vitality (shouldn’t be neccesary)

For a “tanky build”:
Toughness (survivability)
(Power/ Condition Dmg (you will need a damage source now or do you?))
Healing (heal the hits that come through)
Boon duration (buffing keeps you alive)
Vitality (larger healthpool tends to help
Condition duration
Precision
Ferocity

Hybrids and DOT builds tend to be mutually exclusive
Some conditions are spammed to much to build adequate stacks
Fire tends to be spammed by ele’s and guardians and bleeds by engineers, necro’s, (rangers) and warriors…
Leaving :
mesmer as a good hybrid choice (torment/confusion/bleeds/poison/fire)
necro as a good hybrid choice (poison/bleeds/terror/torment)
thief as a good hybrid choice (bleeds/poison/torment/confusion)
engineer as a good hybrid choice(confusion/poison/bleeds/fire)
warrior as a moderate choice (bleeds, torment, fire)
ranger as a moderate choice (bleeds/poison/fire/confusion(pet))
ele as a overall build using celestial (bleeds/ fire)
guardian … no condition-builds recommended (fire(/retaliation))…

1 non -DPS user/party is okay , but it will mean the others should be dps and preferably do not interfere with conditions.
During small fights DOT-users will have problems getting the stacks up… not getting dmg on target, a tag and hence will be losing out on drops.

You can’t change this, as survivability is granted mostly by:
dodges/boons: (protection/aegis/regen/vigor)
conditions(blinds/weakness/frost)
reflects
healing/toughness and vitality are less usefull…

Just to reconsider the buffs and conditions:
100% reduction
stuns=> no dmg for duration of stun
blind/ aegis = miss => no dmg
dodge => evade all attacks for the second you dodge => no dmg
reducing enemy dps
weakness => enemy does no crits, enemy hits have a 50% chance to do 50% dmg, lowers enemy dps by 50-70%
protection => reduce incoming dmg by 33%
frost => +66% recharge for skills, well it actually matters quite a lot, it reduces enemy dps by 40% if a character would just be using 1 skill, with the full skillset the dps loss is lower but 10-30% still……
reducing enemy conditions:
(AoE) condition clear => remove 1 or more conditions, if a stack: whole stack dissapears.
negative condition duration => (runes/food) up to 65% (25 from runes, 40% from food) leaving only 35% of the damage remaining…

Every time this topic is posted as a new thread, a puppy dies. Why do you guys hate puppies so much? Are they meta puppies?

frifox.5283:

Jana.6831:

Ok, sorry path 3. I only found one mesmer soloing path 3 and I don’t really get what he was doing – he switched to the human heal skill which doesn’t seem to have that much advantage, that was all. No idea what build he was running. So – maybe mesmers can do it as well with or without clerics

A mesmer can solo it naked, without any healing skills.

Nice, so that’s why they never show up in any LFG pugs, right?

Edit: Right, didn’t see the portal for some reason. But glad we talked this lengthy about it!

Kaiyanwan.8521:

The point is:

If you want the zerker meta to be gone, you would have to introduce the trinity.

As long as you can succeed by just having DD’s piled up in a group, more damage is the way to go.

So, the only way to end this, would be implementing a tank/healer/damage combo, with different “roles”, you know, like in a RPG (the R stands for Role in traditional games, in GW2 it stands for RNG, yes this is a Random number generator Playing Game).

The R in RPG is not what you think it is. In traditional RPGs the “R” comes from the fact that you play a “Role”, you are someone with a soul, purpose, identity and not a banch of stats and combat roles. Lots of computer RPGs fail completely at this (and almost every single MMORPG in existance)

You don’t need multiple combat roles for a successful RPG, in fact they can only turn the RPG into a combat-fest, which isn’t what a “REAL” RPG is all about.

What people don’t understand is that this game is balanced around PvP. It was a PvP focused game that turned PvE because of a lack of PvP/WvW development. Zerker is meta in pve, but rarely do you get zerker elsewhere except some certain builds in WvW (zerk necro/ele backline DPS and zerk warrior cause warrior) and some DPS point roamers in sPvP (celestial is becoming much more effective in sPvP due to the nature of the game mode, for quite a few classes).

You want diverse builds? Go WvW. I carry 2-3 sets of armor on me depending on the class I play so I can switch between general zerging, solo roaming, scouting and havocing, which all use different builds, traits and utilities.

People make it sound like you desperately need a full group of pure zerkers to get stuff done.

Well, you don’t. The majority of the player base just prefers it that way.

If you don’t like partaking in the “meta”, form your own groups of like minded players and go get stuff done. I’ve seen quite a few groups advertised as “laxed” on the LFG tool.

Having said that, personally I wouldn’t mind at all if the PvE environment (dungeons mostly) and character stats were remade to encourage better build diversity, making support builds a thing for example.

It gets boring quite fast when the only considerations you’ll be making most of the time regarding group composition are: A ) making sure everyone is zerker and B ) keeping necromancers out of the party.

KSIBBQ.8123:

This Zerker meta has to end. It has killed the diversity too long. This game has such a unique build system, and you should truly be able to play how you want. However, unless you have a pre made, then people will kick you. Start building your toon the way you want to!

Ok, so how do you fix it?

It’s one thing to say “I don’t like this”, but finding a solution to address that concern which doesn’t present even greater problems is something you should consider if you expect anything to change.

Jana.6831:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

You said it right there. Soloers. Because it is impossible for a single player to put out the sheer amount of damage to quickly kill a dungeon enemy, survivability becomes much more important.

You need to put out as much damage as possible to be able to solo dungeon bosses as you need to kill them before they can kill you = avoid as many of their attacks as possible.

While true, a single player cannot put out the damage required to kill a boss before you run out of dodges (aside from thieves). Thus, building more defensively becomes optimal because those stats matter.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Jana.6831:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

You said it right there. Soloers. Because it is impossible for a single player to put out the sheer amount of damage to quickly kill a dungeon enemy, survivability becomes much more important.

You need to put out as much damage as possible to be able to solo dungeon bosses as you need to kill them before they can kill you = avoid as many of their attacks as possible.

While true, a single player cannot put out the damage required to kill a boss before you run out of dodges (aside from thieves). Thus, building more defensively becomes optimal because those stats matter.

This is so wrong on many levels do you even know how to dungeon?

Go check out some goku solo videos where he kills spider queen in 11 seconds or whatever. On an elementalist.

maddoctor.2738:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

The point is:

If you want the zerker meta to be gone, you would have to introduce the trinity.

As long as you can succeed by just having DD’s piled up in a group, more damage is the way to go.

So, the only way to end this, would be implementing a tank/healer/damage combo, with different “roles”, you know, like in a RPG (the R stands for Role in traditional games, in GW2 it stands for RNG, yes this is a Random number generator Playing Game).

The R in RPG is not what you think it is. In traditional RPGs the “R” comes from the fact that you play a “Role”, you are someone with a soul, purpose, identity and not a banch of stats and combat roles. Lots of computer RPGs fail completely at this (and almost every single MMORPG in existance)

You don’t need multiple combat roles for a successful RPG, in fact they can only turn the RPG into a combat-fest, which isn’t what a “REAL” RPG is all about.

What you are talking is just Role Play. With your definition, every game you play is a RPG as you are playing a character, a role. Which is fine.
I have been playing multiplayer RPGs while they still have been text based (MUD). In a multiplayer setting, the point of roles has always been centered around the idea, that there are certain roles that have to be filled.

That is where the holy trinity in multiplayer RPGs is coming from. That is why we still have this system in most MMOs. It gives every class/profession a reason to exist.

ANet got rid of the roles in the multiplayer setting, by rendering tanking and healing useless. So this is only a RPG in the sense of your definition, in which every single game you ever play can be seen as an RPG. Which is sort of meaningless…

nomad, bro?

oxtred.7658:

nomad, bro?

This made me chuckle.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

The point is:

If you want the zerker meta to be gone, you would have to introduce the trinity.

As long as you can succeed by just having DD’s piled up in a group, more damage is the way to go.

So, the only way to end this, would be implementing a tank/healer/damage combo, with different “roles”, you know, like in a RPG (the R stands for Role in traditional games, in GW2 it stands for RNG, yes this is a Random number generator Playing Game).

I take it you’ve played literally nothing outside of a traditional MMO.

fishball.7204:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Jana.6831:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

You said it right there. Soloers. Because it is impossible for a single player to put out the sheer amount of damage to quickly kill a dungeon enemy, survivability becomes much more important.

You need to put out as much damage as possible to be able to solo dungeon bosses as you need to kill them before they can kill you = avoid as many of their attacks as possible.

While true, a single player cannot put out the damage required to kill a boss before you run out of dodges (aside from thieves). Thus, building more defensively becomes optimal because those stats matter.

This is so wrong on many levels do you even know how to dungeon?

Go check out some goku solo videos where he kills spider queen in 11 seconds or whatever. On an elementalist.

Spider Queen is squishy for a dungeon boss, though. I’d love to see solo kill times like that on Howling King from the same path, for example. Or other dungeon bosses like Subject Alpha or Searing Effigy, to say nothing of Arah bosses.

Plus, that kill time was before the FGS nerf. It’s impossible now.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

fishball.7204:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Jana.6831:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

You said it right there. Soloers. Because it is impossible for a single player to put out the sheer amount of damage to quickly kill a dungeon enemy, survivability becomes much more important.

You need to put out as much damage as possible to be able to solo dungeon bosses as you need to kill them before they can kill you = avoid as many of their attacks as possible.

While true, a single player cannot put out the damage required to kill a boss before you run out of dodges (aside from thieves). Thus, building more defensively becomes optimal because those stats matter.

This is so wrong on many levels do you even know how to dungeon?

Go check out some goku solo videos where he kills spider queen in 11 seconds or whatever. On an elementalist.

Spider Queen is squishy for a dungeon boss, though. I’d love to see solo kill times like that on Howling King from the same path, for example. Or other dungeon bosses like Subject Alpha or Searing Effigy, to say nothing of Arah bosses.

Plus, that kill time was before the FGS nerf. It’s impossible now.

It was post fgs. But even on long bosses like lupicus, berserker does fine provided you know how to play.

Link to the video, then? Only kill times I’ve seen that fast were FGS field stacking.

Zerker can do well, yes. There it depends on the boss mechanics specifically.

^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF0ttD5lGkY

He also did it in 5 seconds in duo.

Thank you. I’ll admit, that was pretty impressive. No way to tell if that was before or after FGS nerf from the video, but it doesn’t matter because he never used Firey Rush.

Galen Grey.4709:

Now in Gw2 there is no content where you will fail unless you have people 100% focused on support but there is still a benefit to having support so why should someone who enjoys playing support give it up just cause it is not the most efficient way of doing things (which is debatable to be honest… in some circumstances having a mix of damage and support can boost damage to high levels then having just everyone focused on damage)

To be honest it’s not debatable. Since gear doesn’t affect damage avoidance (blinds, reflects, dodges, blocks) and isn’t effective in damage reduction (most bosses will still 2-shot you in tanky gear) and on top of that classic zerk meta builds can mantain 25 stacks o’ might without +boon duration your effectiveness can only go down if someone focuses on supporting/tanking.

Not that I like the system, but eh, just nitpicking.

So “this meta has to end”….

…so another one can takes its place? Then people can complain about the new one?

“Meta” is just an optimized build. No matter what changes they make to the build system, there will always be an optimal build for a specific type of content.

The problem isn’t the meta, it’s that people really need to stop joining PUGs with different playstyles. Make your own LFG or find a casual guild.

dlonie.6547:

So “this meta has to end”….

…so another one can takes its place? Then people can complain about the new one?

“Meta” is just an optimized build. No matter what changes they make to the build system, there will always be an optimal build for a specific type of content.

The problem isn’t the meta, it’s that people really need to stop joining PUGs with different playstyles. Make your own LFG or find a casual guild.

Only thing I see about the meta that has to end is how universal it is. Every path will have a meta. That’s unavoidable. Having every path have the same meta, on the other hand…

You can play as you wish OP. If your friends aren’t online, just create your own LFG instead of joining someone elses.

Yes, if they simply post ‘P1’ or whatever and then kick you because they want all zerk and didn’t say as such, they are in the wrong. However, if they clearly state that’s what they desire and you join anyway knowing you don’t meet their play preference, then you are in the wrong. They have just as much right to play how they please as you do.

Personally, I run assassin on my mesmer, valk on my thief, think i have valk on my ele. Not sure who else has what to be honest. I plan on running Verata’s on my necro, just have to get all the materials together to craft it. I don’t generally have an issue finding people to play with when I desire company.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

dlonie.6547:

So “this meta has to end”….

…so another one can takes its place? Then people can complain about the new one?

“Meta” is just an optimized build. No matter what changes they make to the build system, there will always be an optimal build for a specific type of content.

The problem isn’t the meta, it’s that people really need to stop joining PUGs with different playstyles. Make your own LFG or find a casual guild.

Only thing I see about the meta that has to end is how universal it is. Every path will have a meta. That’s unavoidable. Having every path have the same meta, on the other hand…

That’s a valid concern. I’d point out that WvW and PvP don’t rely on zerk so much, but that still leaves zerk as being optimal for pretty much all of PvE.

Is the problem really the build system, though? All the zerk meta means is: once you’ve figured out the content, you can do it with pure DPS gear. You don’t need passive defense, because active defenses are sufficient (and IMO, waaaaay more fun!). Once you’ve learned to dodge, interrupt, block, blind, etc the important attacks in every encounter, there’s just no reason to bring gear that increases your survivability.

Which leads us to the root of the problem: Boredom. Back when we were figuring out the dungeons for about the first year after launch, zerk was a popular choice. But, so was knights/soldiers, etc. Altruistic Healing guardians were in style. There was room for tankier builds, because, well….we hadn’t memorized the encounters.

Now new players come along that don’t have the encounters memorized, and they have problems in pure DPS gear. Those people need to find a good guild or dungeon group that is willing to teach them and let them learn.

tl;dr Zerk domination isn’t a build variety problem, it’s a boredom problem.

KSIBBQ.8123:

I can play how I want, unless I have no friends on and everyone wants to do speed Zerker clears and kicks you

Why are you playing an MMO?
It’s supposed to be a social experience, go make some like minded friends.
That or go play a single player game.

Yes, this meta has to end. I want back 4 W groups.

A List of Things Most People Don’t Know

1. guild wars 2 has soft roles…
a. Offensive support (engineer, warrior, ranger)
b. Defensive support (mesmer, guardian
c. Might/fury Stacking (elementalist, warrior, engineer)
d. Stealth/Blinds support (Thief, engineer/ guardian)

2. Multiple classes can fulfill those roles using a wide variety of builds. If you think that the only viable builds are the ones listed on metabattle, you’re wrong.

3. You can fulfill those roles with ANY GEAR you want. If you, for example, play elementalist and aren’t confident in berserker gear and want to play with Soldiers or Celestial, so long as you stack Might properly and know when and how to use Ice Bow people really aren’t going to notice or care. You will be successful and be happy.

4. The problem is when people expect an elementalist player to fulfill one of the roles outlined above but the player would prefer to fulfill some role that doesn’t exist in guild wars 2: like CC bot, pure healer, mob kiter. When people don’t want to play with you because you don’t do the basic, non-gear related things you’re expected to do thats an issue with your own maturity as a player and how you react to it is an issue with your maturity as a person.

Jana.6831:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Elite Arah soloers use cleric’s gear to solo orbs!

If they’re not thieves, yes. But it’s only one aspect of path 2, every other part is done in zerkers. Because:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

You said it right there. Soloers. Because it is impossible for a single player to put out the sheer amount of damage to quickly kill a dungeon enemy, survivability becomes much more important.

You need to put out as much damage as possible to be able to solo dungeon bosses as you need to kill them before they can kill you = avoid as many of their attacks as possible.

Ehm, the orb is an bundle which damages you overtime and not an enemy …
I like when casuals want to be smarter than the part of the playerbase who they bash 24/7 for no reason. *sigh

Wolfheart.1938:

Galen Grey.4709:

Now in Gw2 there is no content where you will fail unless you have people 100% focused on support but there is still a benefit to having support so why should someone who enjoys playing support give it up just cause it is not the most efficient way of doing things (which is debatable to be honest… in some circumstances having a mix of damage and support can boost damage to high levels then having just everyone focused on damage)

To be honest it’s not debatable. Since gear doesn’t affect damage avoidance (blinds, reflects, dodges, blocks) and isn’t effective in damage reduction (most bosses will still 2-shot you in tanky gear) and on top of that classic zerk meta builds can mantain 25 stacks o’ might without +boon duration your effectiveness can only go down if someone focuses on supporting/tanking.

Not that I like the system, but eh, just nitpicking.

Its not just might that effects damage dealt. you have vulnerability stacks and also quickness that both benefit from boon duration and condition duration. As for DPS effectiveness in the long run if you’re a party of 5 and 1 focuses on support maintaining vulnerability, might and as much quickness as possible it may do more damage then having all 5 focusing just on dps. Besides I dont think all professions have a meta that allows them to maintain 25 stacks of might either.

Quickness isn’t a boon. It doesn’t get increased by boon duration.

Zerker meta is caused by one and only thing, absence of essential “roles” in PvE, aka trinity or similar system.
So until the game gets total overhaul, there will be zerker meta. Anet is clearly ok with that, so there’s no way to change that.

tl,dr: take it or leave it.

The only place the “zerker beta” exists is in dungeon pug groups. Find a group of friends or a good guild open to trying new things and you’ll find the game a lot more fun (and, if you advertise smartly for your own pugs, you can even do so there).

Also, just a point of clarification – zerker is a gearing decision and is only one small piece of your build. Your more important build decisions (traits and skills) can still vary significantly and be very effective. In fact, many best in class builds do not max out the power and precision lines – opting to go after strong traits in other lines instead.

A more realistic argument would be to debate the efficacy of stats other than power, precision and ferocity given the heavy focus on damage and “kill the fastest” in the game’s design.

STRanger.5120:

Zerker meta is caused by one and only thing, absence of essential “roles” in PvE, aka trinity or similar system.
So until the game gets total overhaul, there will be zerker meta. Anet is clearly ok with that, so there’s no way to change that.

tl,dr: take it or leave it.

Please see my post a few posts above wherein I show how wrong this is.

Flitzie.6082:

I once got aksed if I ran full zerker.
I posted my zerker amulet and they believed me fully.
Little did they know at the time this had been my only zerker piece alongside a lot of soldier or knights pieces.

Eventually I gave in myself ankitten ow running full zerker. Then again I never really worried about it. Just play as you like.

WOW respect for ur leeching skills , u dont like zerker but u try to join them so they carry u

i will remember u :P

After i crafted my entire light ascended, zerk daggers, staff, scepter and fous and spent cca 200 or more gold on it, i agree with you 110%. Like, totally. I would love to repeat the process with some other ascended armor.

STRanger.5120:

Zerker meta is caused by one and only thing, absence of essential “roles” in PvE, aka trinity or similar system.
So until the game gets total overhaul, there will be zerker meta. Anet is clearly ok with that, so there’s no way to change that.

tl,dr: take it or leave it.

1. There are many ways to break the ideals without the game devolving into WoW without a subscription model. I’m not against the trinity system myself, what I am saying is that things are not white and black like that.

2. Anet is clearly not ok with the meta ideals as demonstrated by newer content, their issue is that they could care less about older sPvE dungeon content which is where the new designs that are being implemented would have the most impact. They have tools but decide not to use them in areas that could use it the most.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

maddoctor.2738:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

The point is:

If you want the zerker meta to be gone, you would have to introduce the trinity.

As long as you can succeed by just having DD’s piled up in a group, more damage is the way to go.

So, the only way to end this, would be implementing a tank/healer/damage combo, with different “roles”, you know, like in a RPG (the R stands for Role in traditional games, in GW2 it stands for RNG, yes this is a Random number generator Playing Game).

The R in RPG is not what you think it is. In traditional RPGs the “R” comes from the fact that you play a “Role”, you are someone with a soul, purpose, identity and not a banch of stats and combat roles. Lots of computer RPGs fail completely at this (and almost every single MMORPG in existance)

You don’t need multiple combat roles for a successful RPG, in fact they can only turn the RPG into a combat-fest, which isn’t what a “REAL” RPG is all about.

What you are talking is just Role Play. With your definition, every game you play is a RPG as you are playing a character, a role. Which is fine.
I have been playing multiplayer RPGs while they still have been text based (MUD). In a multiplayer setting, the point of roles has always been centered around the idea, that there are certain roles that have to be filled.

That is where the holy trinity in multiplayer RPGs is coming from. That is why we still have this system in most MMOs. It gives every class/profession a reason to exist.

ANet got rid of the roles in the multiplayer setting, by rendering tanking and healing useless. So this is only a RPG in the sense of your definition, in which every single game you ever play can be seen as an RPG. Which is sort of meaningless…

I don’t think all games allow the player to make choices that influence the outcome of the game in a meaningful way. I don’t think all games allow the player to play a character that has a personality, goals and ideals that can be shaped and formed by the player himself (that is to role play the character). Most games allow the player to follow a predetermined plot with zero ability to influence the outcome with actual player choices, that’s what RPGs do differently (REAL RPGs).

Also, from the rest of your post you seem like you’ve never played an actual RPG in your life. The Trinity and things like tanking and healing do not even exist in real RPGs, because real RPGs don’t need strictly defined roles to be successful and engaging. The trinity is a horrible mechanic that exists only in MMORPGs and maybe some RPGs that try too hard to mimic MMORPG mechanic. Play at least one RPG and you will realize that roles are not needed to have a fun and interesting RPG experience.

By your definition of calling anything with roles an RPG, Call of Duty is an RPG…

STRanger.5120:

Zerker meta is caused by one and only thing, absence of essential “roles” in PvE, aka trinity or similar system.
So until the game gets total overhaul, there will be zerker meta. Anet is clearly ok with that, so there’s no way to change that.

tl,dr: take it or leave it.

Most great RPGs don’t have “essential roles” either, yet they have interesting mechanics and encounters. No RPG needs healers and tanks to have good mechanics, the Trinity is strictly used in MMORPGs, nowhere else.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

dlonie.6547:

So “this meta has to end”….

…so another one can takes its place? Then people can complain about the new one?

“Meta” is just an optimized build. No matter what changes they make to the build system, there will always be an optimal build for a specific type of content.

The problem isn’t the meta, it’s that people really need to stop joining PUGs with different playstyles. Make your own LFG or find a casual guild.

Only thing I see about the meta that has to end is how universal it is. Every path will have a meta. That’s unavoidable. Having every path have the same meta, on the other hand…

They dont. You use different strategies and different class compositions for different dungeons. And this often means that the builds are tweaked specifically for a path. Some dungeons dont require the added defence of a guardian or the utility of a mesmer. Others benefit from having 2 mesmers (double portals). So each path does have a different meta. Its just they all happen to use the same gear stat. But individual builds and compositions are tweaked quite considerably.

If you are just going for your casual tour or a pug then you might see the same balanced composition everywhere (still all berserker). But thats not the most optimal for every dungeon.

maddoctor.2738:

STRanger.5120:

Zerker meta is caused by one and only thing, absence of essential “roles” in PvE, aka trinity or similar system.
So until the game gets total overhaul, there will be zerker meta. Anet is clearly ok with that, so there’s no way to change that.

tl,dr: take it or leave it.

Most great RPGs don’t have “essential roles” either, yet they have interesting mechanics and encounters. No RPG needs healers and tanks to have good mechanics, the Trinity is strictly used in MMORPGs, nowhere else.

Many games even class based shooters have it disguised in some way shape or form. The key here is that it is entirely optional because of how the game works and not mandatory.