Guild Wars 2

Promega.7628:

I think you just need to reword your argument from “grind” to “character progression”. Once you reach 80 with a full set or two of gear you are basically done.

I’d understand that argument if it were a gear grinder. But, how can one be done from a character progression standpoint when getting the end-game gear w/ max stats does not necessarily mean that the player has mastered that character as far as gameplay is concerned. I have a fully geared ele with almost all possible armor, weapon and trinkets combination. I am quite certain I have not completely learned how to play ele with so many variety of combinations of skills/weapons/situations.

I think, when people start focusing more on gameplay than on the shinies, they will get the essence of this franchise. If someone feels that the gameplay is dull and boring, maybe this is not the game franchise for that person. But, the game really began after 20 for everyone in GW. Here, ANET went further and made leveling to 80 a somewhat good experience as well.

tl;dr: GW’s character progression actually comes from character maturity where a player learns to know how to effectively use a character to take advantage of the situation and its possession.

ciannait.1945:

I didn’t say I didn’t want to spend time playing. I don’t want to feel like a certain time-sink is required in order for progression. Gated dailies are required for progress in WoW, for example, and is one reason I canceled my account.

I just think its ironic that you specifically said “I’m not looking for another job.”

ciannait.1945:

What would you like to see in the expansion, then? I’m curious.

Dare I say something along the lines of what AO did with shadowlands and alien invasion. Those expansions actually expanded the already existing game. WoW’s “expansions” are actually revisions imho.

Red Falcon.8257:

GW2 is not a grind game, it will never be, and it does not need to be.

You see things a bit too black – white. GW1 was no grind game, because everyone had max gear and could play what they liked, _ and yet_ it was a big grind game, because I think it’s without questioning that if you wanted all the titles there was a lot of grind.

And this is exactly what we need in GW2. The whole casual-friendly non-grind system is there, now we need the more grindy goals to keep the less casual players interested. Legendaries are one such thing, but at the moment they are also pretty much the only thing.

Vlaxitov.5693:

I just think its ironic that you specifically said “I’m not looking for another job.”

Really? I can spend maybe a couple of hours a night unwinding with a game I find fun, and you twist that into “but you said you don’t want another job”? That seems silly to me.

Vlaxitov.5693:

Dare I say something along the lines of what AO did with shadowlands and alien invasion. Those expansions actually expanded the game. WoW’s “expansions” are actually revisions imho.

I never played AO, so this means nothing to me.

I think the real problem here is rewards. The only items in game that require a significant investment are the legendary items, and to a lesser extent the 3 Halloween skins. But to be honest, I cant say any of them are really worth it. I think the majority of those skins are mediocre. Theres very little to invest yourself in, and none of it seems like its worth the effort. Maybe others don’t share my opinion though.

i agreed with you when you said we need more stuff to spend karma on. like, a lot more.

then you said MMOs are about grind, and i feel bad about posting in this topic >.>

ciannait.1945:

Really? I can spend maybe a couple of hours a night unwinding with a game I find fun, and you twist that into “but you said you don’t want another job”? That seems silly to me.

You already forget how you began your exchange with me? Let me remind you.

ciannait.1945:

I work for a living. I have one job already – I don’t need another one.

I didn’t twist anything you said because it was exactly what you said.

ciannait.1945:

I never played AO, so this means nothing to me.

Shadowlands and alien invasion expansions had their own seperate progression tables and they didn’t revise the entire game for the sake of the expansion.

BrunoBRS.5178:

i agreed with you when you said we need more stuff to spend karma on. like, a lot more.

then you said MMOs are about grind, and i feel bad about posting in this topic >.>

Simply put though, by grind I meant effort involved.

If I could reword that part I would. I don’t like heavy grinds myself, but some form of effort is always involved when it comes to getting a reward in an online game.

Vlaxitov.5693:

ciannait.1945:

Really? I can spend maybe a couple of hours a night unwinding with a game I find fun, and you twist that into “but you said you don’t want another job”? That seems silly to me.

You already forget how you began your exchange with me? Let me remind you.

ciannait.1945:

I work for a living. I have one job already – I don’t need another one.

I didn’t twist anything you said because it was exactly what you said.

And you continue to deliberately misinterpret. Daily requirement to log in to progress, required amount of timesink (NOT just playing or questing) in order to progress, hours spent sitting on my kitten in order to get the 40 people to raid a dungeon in order to have a miniscule chance of being able to see content – that’s a job. So far, this is a fun HOBBY.

There’s a difference. Please continue to be obtuse, though. I’m done with you.

I’m a little confused as to what people are asking for here?

The game is full of long term goals, and what most would consider a grind mechanic.

By grind I think some are looking for WoW like endgame gear grind, and that’s not this game.

Sorry GW2 doesn’t have your flavor of grind, and you’re not wrong for wanting something you enjoyed in another MMO included in this one but that’s not the game they chose to make.

WoW’s endgame is not MMO genre defining. WoW is just one game in a much broader spectrum of MMO’s and the mindset that a WoW’s endgame grind is a ticket to success for MMO’s ..Well I could list a dozen or so MMO’s that flopped copying WoW’s endgame pretty much by verbatim.
I don’t think it really maters what developers do these days it’s become all too typical to see developers be steered by the fan base into a WoW clone and then be abandoned anyway.

So, if by grind you mean grind for unique armor skins and looks that have a rare chance to drop from Champion Mobs and in Dungeons ….cool I’m all for them to continue to add to the unique appearance sets they already have in the game.

It’s two months old.

Variety will come as the game matures.

ciannait.1945:

And you continue to deliberately misinterpret.

Hmmm…

ciannait.1945:

I work for a living. I have one job already – I don’t need another one.

I should have totally known that you really didn’t mean what you actually said there.

Looks like the reality is you regret that comment and now its not what you meant.

ciannait.1945:

There’s a difference. Please continue to be obtuse, though. I’m done with you.

I guess might makes you right.

‘MMOs are not about grinding.’

Oh wow how wrong is that ? Grinding imo is nearly the same as progressing. Skins or stats or achievement points, dont matter.

So, at 80 the main focus of the game is to just aquire different ‘looks’ than other people have (PvE focus here obviously)?
The main thing I am picking up from everyone vigorously shouting down the OP is that they do not want anyone to possibly be viewed as ‘better’ than them in any way and are really happy that at present this will not happen as there is no real way to be considered so.
Everyone the same, everyone doing the same, everything the same, but wooo some people look at bit ‘different’.
Great, how exciting!! /sarcasm.
Also, for those people who are about to tell me to go away as this is not the game for me, I am starting to agree. Thing is, if enough people do exit, then no matter how you choose to spin it or ignore it, the game will suffer.
However, having said all that I agree that there is nothing wrong with having a game aimed purely for people who do not want to persue really advancing or strengthening their character and being measured in game by that dynamic.
In fact, this could be a huge plus because if everyone who enjoys this type of gameplay has found their home here it means they will not then go to other games and constantly cry in other forums for everything relating to things such as raiding, gear advancement etc. to be dumbed down because they cannot achieve the same as everyone else, even though they have access to all the same content but they just do not want to put in the time or effort involved.
So, I partially agree with the people advising others this is not a game for them. Those of us who are starting to become a little demotivated by what GW2 is proving to be should probably move on somewhere else and unlike many people in so many other games who labelled themselves as ‘casual’ not cry on the forums and try to change the game.
It is what it is, if it is not suitable do not give Anet any more of your money and leave, time will tell where that will leave the game, especially when some new games come out, it may prove interesting.

hmmm… maybe they could have a side game where you could grind for gear only useable in that side game??

Personally I just re-rolled and will probably continue to do so for everyone I level to 80, unless they add some kind of “bonus” grind at 80 like realm ranks in daoc.

“Well feel free to point out where I’m wrong here.
1. You get better gear.
2. The bosses get better stats.
3. The gear hasn’t improved you, it’s kept you on par. Change is only cosmetic.
1. You go back to an old instance.
2. You clear it with ease because you outgear it.
3. Outgearing content makes it trivial.
Which means the gear grind is nothing but an artificial way of saying – ‘you can’t do this instance until you’ve done that one enough times to get the gear you need’.”

you’re just looking at one aspect of it and missing the point i was trying to make entirely. im done trying to talk to you

Deli.4097:

So, at 80 the main focus of the game is to just aquire different ‘looks’ than other people have (PvE focus here obviously)?
The main thing I am picking up from everyone vigorously shouting down the OP is that they do not want anyone to possibly be viewed as ‘better’ than them in any way and are really happy that at present this will not happen as there is no real way to be considered so.
Everyone the same, everyone doing the same, everything the same, but wooo some people look at bit ‘different’.
Great, how exciting!! /sarcasm.

I don’t think people have a problem with achievements and being able to display them (the unique armor skins). Being viewed as better is an entirely different matter than being objectively and quantifiably capable of greater performance due to stat disparity.

constantly cry
dumbed down
cannot achieve the same as everyone else
do not want to put in the time or effort
cry on the forums

Maybe you should find something besides video games to base your sense of self worth and superiority over others, it’s really not a healthy thing to base your self-image on.

Just another “I wish this was X game, but I’m not going to play X game – I’m just going to complain about how I wish this was X game, but I’m not going to play X game – I’m just going to complain about how I wish this was X game, but I’m not going to play X game – I’m just going to complain about how I wish this was X gaame, but I’m not…”

And it never really ends.

Call it whatever you want – grind or “a reward for being able to play for days on end so you can brag about how you played for days on end” (or any other euphemism). End game or “I paid for this game so I’m entitled to be entertained for the rest of my living days by this game.” In the end – you only paid a one time fee for it and you have access to this game for as long as it’s up and you’re not obligated to put any more cash into this cow! Don’t also act as if ANet should feel obligated to add stuff to keep you around either – you’re not paying a sub fee. You’ve completed everything, gotten every title, maxed out all five toons, got all equipments you can – good on you. Now move on to the next thing that will keep your attention. There are some of us who’ll likely not even complete our personal story by the time the next expansion content is release!

It’s very very simple. GW and GW2 are not about loot. It’s about playing the game, not becoming stronger than others, not becoming richer than other. Low time commitment and “equality” is exactly why I like GW and GW2 over other MMO.

@ Kerri Knight, I agree with you it would indeed not be a healthy thing to do.
However, I was not aware that I was doing so. Thank you for taking the time to use your superior mind reading skills and instant personal character evaluation techniques to inform me of whom I am and of what I think and what my personal failings are. All this after reading one forum post and then taking some of the comments made totally out of context, most impressive!
It is interesting to see how defensive you appear to be, do some of the comments you have taken out of context apply to you, or are you just really that idiotic?

This is far removed from my post, but I wanted to say thank you and good on ya to Amadeuz.4617 for replying to me with such a good attitude. Rare to see that. Thank you again.

Deli.4097

@ Kerri Knight, I agree with you it would indeed not be a healthy thing to do.
However, I was not aware that I was doing so. Thank you for taking the time to use your superior mind reading skills and instant personal character evaluation techniques to inform me of whom I am and of what I think and what my personal failings are. All this after reading one forum post and then taking some of the comments made totally out of context, most impressive!
It is interesting to see how defensive you appear to be, do some of the comments you have taken out of context apply to you, or are you just really that idiotic?

You used insulting, pejorative-filled language to disparage others. Your utter disdain for people who prefer not to have endless progression as their form of entertainment couldn’t be more apparent.

If you don’t want to be perceived as insulting, maybe take a moment to consider the language you use.

Deli.4097:

@ Kerri Knight, I agree with you it would indeed not be a healthy thing to do.
However, I was not aware that I was doing so. Thank you for taking the time to use your superior mind reading skills and instant personal character evaluation techniques to inform me of whom I am and of what I think and what my personal failings are. All this after reading one forum post and then taking some of the comments made totally out of context, most impressive!
It is interesting to see how defensive you appear to be, do some of the comments you have taken out of context apply to you, or are you just really that idiotic?

Kerri’s post was eminently sensible. Your response here is juvenile at best.

Aphix.9846:

‘MMOs are not about grinding.’

Oh wow how wrong is that ? Grinding imo is nearly the same as progressing. Skins or stats or achievement points, dont matter.

Exactly, but this goes over most people’s heads even though it’s so simple.

My ultimatum to everyone: if your problem is lack of things to do at level 80, let’s talk about some constructive ideas and alternatives to grinding that might be easily and successfully implemented.

If your problem is that you think any MMO which doesn’t let you continuously grind your way to better stats is hopelessly flawed and a diabolical waste of time, we’ll have to disagree, because I’m probably never going to stop thinking you’re an insecure individual who needs superior gear to compensate for feelings of inadequacy.

Focksbot.6798:

My ultimatum to everyone: if your problem is lack of things to do at level 80, let’s talk about some constructive ideas and alternatives to grinding that might be easily and successfully implemented.

If your problem is that you think any MMO which doesn’t let you continuously grind your way to better stats is hopelessly flawed and a diabolical waste of time, we’ll have to disagree, because I’m probably never going to stop thinking you’re an insecure individual who needs superior gear to compensate for feelings of inadequacy.

That really does seem to be what separates the legitimate concern from those who just want this to turn into an kitten measuring contest.

As a general rule, avoid asking for traditional MMO features in GW2.
The playerbase does not want them, Anet does not want them.

If you suggest something make sure it is reasonable within the manifesto of GW2, aka no treadmills, inspect, world pvp or other traditional MMO garbage we don’t want.

Here’s my take on the situation. I’m somewhat okay with there being a gear plateau, I just wish there was maybe one more level because getting the best gear stats wise took no time at all. I enjoy the sense of progression and that ended pretty quickly upon hitting 80.

GW2 focuses more on grinding for aesthetics and vanity rather than better stats. That’s fine too. I just wish that it was less of a mindless grind and more of something that took effort. The grinding is too faceroll for me. DE are easy. Dungeons are easy. It’s all too easy.

In the end, it’s pretty subjective. I play games for the sense of challenge and progression. Being rewarded for doing something that takes little effort and a lot of time gives many people a sense of accomplishment. But for me, the rewards feel shallow because all it says is “I put a lot of time into this.”

People look for different things in a game. I play games for challenge and progression. An endless grind of doing the same thing over and over again is basically a job. Don’t get me wrong, I’m enjoying the game. Plus, I have no idea what their progression model will look like in the future when new content is added. The game is still young, so people have to stop being so critical.

Red Falcon.8257:

As a general rule, avoid asking for traditional MMO features in GW2.
The playerbase does not want them, Anet does not want them.

If you suggest something make sure it is reasonable within the manifesto of GW2, aka no treadmills, inspect, world pvp or other traditional MMO garbage we don’t want.

But then the entire forums will be left void and empty. The poor trolls need something to do to keep from the sun.

I think we all know what we want: A real alternative to Orr with the same idea’s just implemented better. For me a HUGE mini-dungeon with mobs that push back players and take waypoints in a linear fashion would work. Give chest loot throughout the zone (with actual good loot). Give us something like this + new dungeons w/armor and really that will appease the playerbase.

chasingfuries.9635:

“Well feel free to point out where I’m wrong here.
1. You get better gear.
2. The bosses get better stats.
3. The gear hasn’t improved you, it’s kept you on par. Change is only cosmetic.
1. You go back to an old instance.
2. You clear it with ease because you outgear it.
3. Outgearing content makes it trivial.
Which means the gear grind is nothing but an artificial way of saying – ‘you can’t do this instance until you’ve done that one enough times to get the gear you need’.”

you’re just looking at one aspect of it and missing the point i was trying to make entirely. im done trying to talk to you

Chasing, don’t use logic here without a /Logic_Alert first, your going to burst peoples altered state of reality and kill MMO’s for them forever.

Cezton.2415

Simply put though, by grind I meant effort involved.

If I could reword that part I would. I don’t like heavy grinds myself, but some form of effort is always involved when it comes to getting a reward in an online game.

i still disagree.

the effort involved is just right. not so much that it feels like a chore, but enough to not feel like it’s handed over to you in a plate. there are plenty of things to aim for after gearing up, in fact, that’s the very first step of many.

i would like to see more variety in things i can aim for in terms of looks, especially things to spend my karma on, and that’s likely coming with future updates. i would not want to see ANet add another rarity tier, or raise the level cap. content over carrots.

Asklepios.8749:

It’s very very simple. GW and GW2 are not about loot. It’s about playing the game, not becoming stronger than others, not becoming richer than other. Low time commitment and “equality” is exactly why I like GW and GW2 over other MMO.

I kind of disagree with you about GW1. It wasn’t just about playing. It was about loot and power. You needed to get gold to buy and rune up your armor and get decent weapons. You needed to unlock heroes. You needed lots of skills to not just for your character, but for your heroes (if you were to be effective) I was way more powerful over time. It was considerably harder with my first character than others. There was no level grind, but you had to grind a long time to get your character in decent shape and enough skills.

It is about the loot for both games. Its expensive getting a character through both games especially first characters. In GW2 Skill manuals were not cheap. nor is armor, weapons, waypoints and repair cost.

Cezton.2415:

Replace the word grind with having to work for “anything”. Character progression with reward is the most important part of these games.

If you don’t understand this component to online games, you just don’t get it.

Progression and reward is not that important to me, and perpetual progression is a deal-breaker. I am finished-product-oriented. I need to a have final set of maxed-out stats in sight to achieve and then be “done” with leveling and gearing up that character.

I think people are getting stuck on gear, while reasonably so considering the amount of people yelling “Gear treadmill is bad!!!!!!” I don’t think should be the focus of this thread.

Right now as a level 80, (who never has been into alternative characters) I find endgame lacking, not due to the lack of a gear “treadmill” but because of the lack of a pve challenge. Having completed every explore with relative ease (exception being pre nerf subject alpha (aka 15 minutes of dodging) and giganticus lupicius (one of the best bosses in the game imo)) I am struggling to find something that requires significant time/skill investment to do.

For some people raids were about the loot, for others (such as myself) they were about the challenge it took downing the boss. I have no problem having stats remain where they are, I simply desire a pve end game alternative that is challenging. Whether this manifests in some form of solo content, group content, (crosses fingers) pve raid content), or world event. I desire no advantage over the casual player in loot, merely aesthetics is fine. However, to state lastly, the main problem I find with making World Events challenging is that despite the stat boost npcs get in accordance the amount of pcs there, the more pcs there still makes the fight considerably easier.

TL;DR: You don’t need gear rewards for endgame, however the current endgame is lacking challenge and content.

I agree the PvE lacks challenge, Persus, but you cannot possibly claim it lacks content.
No game ever launched with 33 different dungeon paths, thousands of DEs and sub-DE chains, mini dungeons, jumping puzzled, achievements, etc.

Difficulty still needs to be fixed, but we know for a fact Anet can create really hard places.
Then again, the real skill challenge is PvP, not PvE.
Until they create a very advanced AI it’s impossible to create difficulty that is not dictated by math (high health, high damage, etc).
GW2 already went up a bunch of stairs in the way you require skill in PvE by adding places where you need to actively dodge/block and move, but it’s still as far as AI coding can get for now.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Cezton.2415

Simply put though, by grind I meant effort involved.

If I could reword that part I would. I don’t like heavy grinds myself, but some form of effort is always involved when it comes to getting a reward in an online game.

i still disagree.

the effort involved is just right. not so much that it feels like a chore, but enough to not feel like it’s handed over to you in a plate. there are plenty of things to aim for after gearing up, in fact, that’s the very first step of many.

I think this is a subjective thing. what may feel right for you may be too much for someone else. I think the karma grind is way too high for gear. I despised the game by the time I got my first full set. Granted, You probably play way more than me. It takes way too long to get 252,000 karma for an exotic set.

A million for legendary weapon? That would take me so long it would be pointless. Since they are more or less just for asthetics I can live without having one.

Anyway, I don’t think they are handing you anything. You have to grind a lot. (too much IMO) This is even worse since DR started.

Originally posted by Mammoth
“You’re confusing optional with mandatory. If you had to do lyssa to get the gear to do the easy events in cursed shore, that would be a problem.”

Meaning no disrespect, this reply does not make sense to me. Perhaps I did not explain my point well enough. Grind is often engaged in for rewards. If GW2 is not about grind and not about rewards, you’d think people would gravitate towards more complex, more challenging events for the fun involved. Since that is not what I’m seeing, I question what the game’s community really wants. Maybe a majority of peoples’ idea of fun is getting rewards?

I’d like to see what would happen if waypoints in dungeons were removed.
This forum would go from “blah, no challenge!” to “amagad Anet wtfu doing dung sux they 2 hard! fix dis!”.

Reality is that gamers will never be happy.

All I’ve gathered from this thread so far is,

Pro-Gear Treadmill people are saying, “I wanna grind and get better gear! I don’t care if they come out with even raids where everyone can do them, and the gear you get is cosmetic. I don’t care if those are challenging. I don’t care if they add more things to do in the game. All i want is a gear treadmill, so I can feel relevant!”

Anti-Gear Treadmill People: “We don’t want this because we like the game how it is! It’s nice to finally have a game where we’re not forced to do a gear treadmill every content patch and expansion! We want to be able to enjoy the content that ArenaNet makes, instead of feeling obligated to grind and gear up in order to SEE content. We’ll see it if we want to!”

I’m curious if any of these “gear treadmill” people would enjoy raiding if there wasn’t a gear treadmill involved, and it was purely for the challenge, fun, and cosmetic gear? Something tells me, no.

Rieselle.5079:

Really, my ideal game would be something like Dark Souls but with a proper server, some more multiplayer features and more ongoing patches / support. There’s not much grind in that game, and the loot is generally not random, but instead placed in specific locations.

This has to be the single “funniest” thing I’ve heard today. Dark Souls DOES NOT HAVE ANY GRIND. Ye let’s go with that…

lol…

Oh ye wait!

• Have to grind like kitten to get gear

• Have to grind like kitten when you die, which you will do a lot of times (though u get better with experience)

Dark souls = one looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong grind

Red Falcon.8257:

GW2 already went up a bunch of stairs in the way you require skill in PvE by adding places where you need to actively dodge/block and move, but it’s still as far as AI coding can get for now.

Not innovative though. Several games have done this befor GW 2 and yes some of them were MMORPGS.
Overall personally I don’t think the dodge feature works well in the PVE part of the game. It should have been left in PVP along with the downed state.

Speaking of the topic; my problem with GW 2 is not that it lacks gear treadmill, I really do enjoy that ArenaNet chose not to persue that model but what suck about GW 2 is that the combat skills is locked to your weapons and this along with the shallow traits system kills character progression and the leveling experience for me.

I know that there were skills that were just filler and not viable in GW1 but it was a much better idea still then what we have in GW2 where characters never evole after you hit level 30 since u will more or less roll around with the same skills until level 80. Just being able to play around with different skills in the hotbar and swap them out and swap others in is what I like in MMORPGs and not the gear treadmill, unfortunately ArenaNet did for some reason throw the GW1 design in the trash bin and IMO that really hurt PVE in GW2.

Noxu.7203:

I’m curious if any of these “gear treadmill” people would enjoy raiding if there wasn’t a gear treadmill involved, and it was purely for the challenge, fun, and cosmetic gear? Something tells me, no.

I’m fine if raiding isn’t even added to the game. Medium sized dungeons is good enough.

I would raid though for nice cosmetic rewards. I know that a lot of people are butthurt about there being no gear with better stats, but that is hardly my concern.

And labeling us as “gear treadmill people” is just being ignorant to the point that most people in this thread simply want better loot quality (not better stats, but actual loot instead of blues and greens from every single chest in the game), and more rewards for karma so the karma actually feels useful aside from the one set you can get with it.

SHM.7628:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Cezton.2415

Simply put though, by grind I meant effort involved.

If I could reword that part I would. I don’t like heavy grinds myself, but some form of effort is always involved when it comes to getting a reward in an online game.

i still disagree.

the effort involved is just right. not so much that it feels like a chore, but enough to not feel like it’s handed over to you in a plate. there are plenty of things to aim for after gearing up, in fact, that’s the very first step of many.

I think this is a subjective thing. what may feel right for you may be too much for someone else. I think the karma grind is way too high for gear. I despised the game by the time I got my first full set. Granted, You probably play way more than me. It takes way too long to get 252,000 karma for an exotic set.

A million for legendary weapon? That would take me so long it would be pointless. Since they are more or less just for asthetics I can live without having one.

Anyway, I don’t think they are handing you anything. You have to grind a lot. (too much IMO) This is even worse since DR started.

i just bought it with gold, or got from a dungeon. and they are adding more ways to earn karma.

for example, dailies now give you an account bound item that gives 4.5k karma AND is affected by karma boosters and other bonuses. completing monthly gives you 10 of those. dungeons now give karma too, though i haven’t checked how.

Well, all I’m saying Cezton, is that most of the people I’ve seen here have been wanting to get gear treadmills going, and don’t like the cosmetic idea behind upgrades of gear.

I, personally, would love to see raids of medium-sizes (10 people? Cool. More than that? Nah).

I can definitely agree that the loot quality can be improved, and even ArenaNet has said that the loot quality for dungeons is crappy and they want it fixed or given better stuff.

I like the way you did just describe your idea on the end game and how to improve it, too. The problem is, and I don’t mean you, but a lot of people tend to coincide “endgame” with “gear treadmill”. That’s where a lot of this goes wrong, because then it just turns into yet another MMO that’s all about gear.

I think that raiding for cosmetic items (or whatever you desire), could be so much more enthralling for people to participate in because it wouldn’t leave anyone out, but it would give a choice on what you want to do for endgame.

If they put in an equally challenging way to get these cosmetic items other than raiding, dungeons, or whatnot, I’d be all for that, too. It would go along with ArenaNet’s idea of, “play how you want”. By this, I don’t mean “buying with Karma, after you farm enough events”, I mean actual challenges and objectives.

I also agree with the more rewards for Karma, too. But all we can do is wait and see what they come up with, because I’m pretty sure they’re not going to just plateau right where we are. We’re going to see a lot more karma sinks coming in down the line, but we just have to be patient.

Noxu.7203:

All I’ve gathered from this thread so far is,

Pro-Gear Treadmill people are saying, “I wanna grind and get better gear! I don’t care if they come out with even raids where everyone can do them, and the gear you get is cosmetic. I don’t care if those are challenging. I don’t care if they add more things to do in the game. All i want is a gear treadmill, so I can feel relevant!”

Anti-Gear Treadmill People: “We don’t want this because we like the game how it is! It’s nice to finally have a game where we’re not forced to do a gear treadmill every content patch and expansion! We want to be able to enjoy the content that ArenaNet makes, instead of feeling obligated to grind and gear up in order to SEE content. We’ll see it if we want to!”

I’m curious if any of these “gear treadmill” people would enjoy raiding if there wasn’t a gear treadmill involved, and it was purely for the challenge, fun, and cosmetic gear? Something tells me, no.

GW was always about trying to complete hard content with the least amount of people.
I fail to see a challenge in gathering a zerg and rolling mobs with tons of health and damage.
I also don’t see how needing more people would somehow improve the content; it would just make everything more chaotic, more laggy, more gimmicky.

I can definitely see more challenging dungeons as an important addition, I just cannot see a reason of why having 10-20-50 people inside a dungeon would make anything good.

I read an article that stated only a tiny percentage of wow players actually like raids, it was something like 2-4%.
That says a lot of what the silent majority of MMO gamers thinks of zergy dungeons.

If anything, they should make the world bosses harder to a point they require 50 people or so – but even there the vocal minority wouldn’t consider them raids, but just zergs – because they can’t see beyond the traditional MMO format.

Well, if you saw my other post, I clearly stated nothing more than 10 people for a dungeon or raid.

And I also mentioned OTHER ways to get these kinds of gear through challenging content rather than raids and dungeons.

Edit: I have a vision in mind for why 10-people dungeons or raids would be different and more challenging, but it’s tough to put into words. All I can say is, it would open up for the idea of different strategies by possibly splitting up the group. Think kind of like the Lovers of Ascalonian Catacombs, that’s what I was thinking, in a vague sense.

Cezton.2415:

Heads up folks, MMOs are about grinding.
. . .
The cosmetic approach, the approach for all to have fun and be equal feels like it will be the downfall of this game after a few months of everyone doing the same things.

MMOs are “about” whatever you make them about. If one person is entertained by logging in and running circles around LA every day, that’s not really any of your concern. If you decide to quit an MMO because it doesn’t offer what is important to you, that really has no more significance than simply ‘what is important to you.’

I don’t care to grind.

If the game is fun, I’ll still play.

I’ve stopped working toward other items in other MMOs just because it wasn’t fun to play that dungeon or area. If I got what I wanted helping guildies, fine, otherwise I’m not going to go out of my way and work toward a item. I still played the game because there was still a lot of other stuff that I liked doing because it was fun, I just didn’t care if I got certain stuff or not.

If the game is fun, I’ll still play. I don’t need a grind.

I also don’t think MMOs are about a grind. I play to socialize and compete against other players. I’m not playing just to grind out something. Like I’m really going to sit down and think “hey, I’m bored today. I think I’ll play a game like it is a job.” Give me a break.

I really, really, REALLY agree with the topic title.

Noxu.7203:

All I’ve gathered from this thread so far is,

Pro-Gear Treadmill people are saying, “I wanna grind and get better gear! I don’t care if they come out with even raids where everyone can do them, and the gear you get is cosmetic. I don’t care if those are challenging. I don’t care if they add more things to do in the game. All i want is a gear treadmill, so I can feel relevant!”

Anti-Gear Treadmill People: “We don’t want this because we like the game how it is! It’s nice to finally have a game where we’re not forced to do a gear treadmill every content patch and expansion! We want to be able to enjoy the content that ArenaNet makes, instead of feeling obligated to grind and gear up in order to SEE content. We’ll see it if we want to!”

I’m curious if any of these “gear treadmill” people would enjoy raiding if there wasn’t a gear treadmill involved, and it was purely for the challenge, fun, and cosmetic gear? Something tells me, no.

I’d be fine without the gear. I’ve said that I play for the challenge and progression. If the rewards were cosmetic, I’d be completely fine with it… if it were possible to balance new content in that way…

But here’s the problem that I see. If the gear plateaus and doesn’t become any better, and new content comes out, you’re already overgeared for the new content and it’ll be easy. To explain, new content in traditional MMOs are never actually more “difficult” from a mechanical standpoint. It’s simply “new” and so you have to learn the content + your gear is barely good enough to get you through if you’re skilled.

Imagine when you first did an explorable like CoF or HotW for the first time. You were in rares and didn’t know the content. It was a challenge and maybe you got through it. Now, say you’ve never been into TA but you’re now in full exotics from running the other dungeons. It was probably a piece of cake for you and your exotic geared buddies because you were able to brute force it. TA is technically new content for you, but it presented little challenge. Any new content without a gear treadmill would end up the same way.

Now, suppose that new content comes out where the enemies hit harder, have more health, etc. Your exotics are now as effective as the rares you were wearing when you first started explorables. Now, you’re actually challenged because you’re not overgeared for the content.

They can’t simply release progressively more and more mechanically difficult content, because then people will start to complain that they don’t get to see content. The gear treadmill allows people of varying skill levels clear new content while still being challenged. It creates a few possibilies: people that are highly skilled and can finish the content with little to none of the new gear but it was challenging AND people that need to slowly work their way up towards finishing the content, gearing themselves until they can finish the more difficult parts of it. Only problem is, you only get tokens at the END of a dungeon. This means if you can only clear part of a dungeon you would get nothing… and that sucks. However, I believe ANet has stated that they wanted to change how token rewarding works still.

Either way, I see it as a win-win unless you simply enjoy mindlessly grinding easy content. I understand that GW2 isn’t like the traditional MMO and maybe there’s a better way to keep new content challenging (plus I have no idea how GW1 handled new content and gear progression), but I welcome the “treadmill” as it is a solution for keeping new content challenging.