Two Elite Specs need serious reconsideration

Two Elite Specs need serious reconsideration

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Tzozef.9841


The Mirage and the Weaver.

Here’s Why -

I’m gonna tackle this from multiple perspectives.

1. playing as the spec. 2. Fighting against the spec 3. The overall purpose and design concept. All in no particular order.

The primary issue with both these specs is that when it comes to the feel and playstyle, they both add nothing new to the core profession whatsoever, it comes across more cosmetic than anything.

On the contrary example, The Spellbreaker, Firebrand, and Scourge are given playstyles the core profession NEVER GOT BEFORE drastically changing the mindset and playstyle we need to learn and play, giving a fresh take on the current class.

The Spellbreaker is the Anti to all that is meta, it rips boons, warriors can never rip boons.
Firebrands are so much like Cloth-wearing Casters from classic Priests in WoW, or Mercy from Overwatch. No longer playing like Frontline Paladins, or Deadly Vanguards (referencing dragonhunter).
Scourge straight up lose a mechanic we’ve been so used to for a completely new one. It’s obvious and in-your-face changes. And you can feel it.

Now let’s get to the Weaver and Mirage. In both forums: reddit, here, and my own play experience. Both the reactions were this:

“Huh, the Core Mesmer/Elementalist can do this already, arguably do this playstyle better as core, might as well stick to that.”

With the Mirage, Core Mesmer already did Condi Spec super well and efficiently, Mirage adds nothing and rather just makes running the same type of spec inconvenient to begin with and subpar traits (Weaver has same issue, I’ll get to that in a moment)

In regards to Ambush and The Mirage’s dodge mechanic. These at best are nice cosmetic changes. There is SOME potential, which is controlling clones to change different targets.

Playing against this class, it’s just a condi mesmer with an awkard dodge mechanic with a visual difference, but the playstyle is still virtually the same.

When i fight against a Firebrand, Scourge, Spellbreaker YOU FEEL THE DIFFERENCE, both playing it, and fighting against it. This is important. And they clearly do something the core prof could not do.

The Weaver has a more glaring problem in my opinion and I’m gonna challenge the justification of the devs on this one. One of the devs said “The Elementalist never really had a playstyle where it can fight up close, the Weaver is an aggresive bruiser/brawler”

AHEM cough cough. This come across as shortsighted, have you not seen CELE ELE D/D?

“Yea but its dagger, and it’s in between close range and mid range, not melee exactly..”

Ok, so let’s look at the Weaver class and what it adds to the Elementalist then with that in mind.

“I can fight one step closer with a Sword than I did with a Dagger.”

THAT’S IT. FOR GOD’S SAKE THATS IT! Literally this entirely Elite Spec is based on fighting ONE STEP (Two steps, giving the benefit of the doubt) than I did before. But it’s the EXACT SAME PLAYSTYLE.

“Yea but Weaver can weave two elements at once” Regular Attunement Swapping was just fine. Again Weaving elements DID NOT change the playstyle, it’s a cosmetic change at best.

Weavers don’t do enough damage to matter, the traits are all sustain tank based, WHICH the Ele does super well already. Have you seen Water/Earth lines?!

I want to chart this out further to illustrate my point. When looking at an Elite Spec there two components, THE CONCEPT and WHAT IT DOES.

You can have a CONCEPT that’s new and different, BUT, It does exactly the same thing.
OR you have a concept that’s poor and distasteful but it does things differently in a new way (haven’t seen this since the Dragonhunter, which is one example)

So lets chart this out.

CONCEPT – Spellbreaker. Counters Mages and Magic, it’s the Anti-Mage.
WHAT IT DOES – Rips boons, Counters Stealth and Kiting.

Again different concept, and does things completely new a Warrior could never do.

CONCEPT – Firebrand. Uses the Knowledge of Lore to brand and smite enemies
WHAT IT DOES – Becomes a Caster Focus Spec. No longer supporting just through buffs and passives around you through proximity. But spells that DIRECTLY Cast upon your allies and enemies. Using tomes simulating kit-like mechanics and ammo usage through pages.

CONCEPT – Deadeye. It’s a Sniper.
WHAT IT DOES – Instead of Stealing, moving in, moving out. You snipe from a distance and long ranger, and focus on damaging multiplying rather than taking/stealing.

CONCEPT- Scourge. Using Sand Shades and losing your Shroud to manipulate the death from the very ground beneath you.
WHAT IT DOES – Battlefield control and Area manipulation.

Those are some strong examples. Let’s go to the Weaver and Mirage.

CONCEPT – Mirage. Through Mirror images and magic imbued in the desert ala mirages, cloak ones movement to deceive enemies.
WHAT IT DOES- It does Condi, a blur for a dodge instead of a roll, and new 1 skills as ambushes.

^ These are visual/cosmetic differences. but WHAT IT DOES is the same. It’s still a dodge, and you do condi, which mesmer already did just as well.

CONCEPT – Weaver. Weave and combine two elements together and simultaenously.
WHAT IT DOES – Fight up close as a “Bruiser/Brawler” and get Dual Attacks when combing two elements.

Yea this isn’t looking too good, at no point ever an Ele said we were lacking this. D/D did the job just fine.

Yea, a lot of people wanted a sword, but we wanted to do something different too. And Dual attacks ARE STILL ATTACKS, it needs to interact differently with the environment around it, which it doesn’t do compared to core ele, just gives different passives…

(edited by Tzozef.9841)

Two Elite Specs need serious reconsideration

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Tzozef.9841


Suggestions -

Again, it is NOT a Concept issue… it’s WHAT IT DOES.


Right now it doesn’t have enough Clone generation for the whole Mirage mechanic to matter. And the dodge is inconsequential to the point Core Mesmer was equally more deceptive and illusive than Mirage already is. It’s just a Mesmer in the desert, does nothing different.

A lot like the edition of Continuum Split from Chronomancer, the Mirage gets something new in its Mechanic bar. TWO New CLONES

So when you look above your shatters, there are 3 circles representing the amount of phantasms/clones you have present. NOW you have 5! With the Two Mirage Clones represented by this Diamond Shape.

How does this interact differently? When you click any of your Shatter skills, Three of your core clones/phantasms shatter, but NOT your Mirage clones (which are generated by your dodges alone)

What this does you have Two extra clones, not designed for damage, but for DEDICATED DECEPTION. emphasis on Dedicated! What this does you have Two clones at all times that can be used to confuse and deceive your enemies, trying to guess which one is which.

This is a playstyle Mesmer don’t have, Mesmers always at some point have to shatter their Clones/Phantas to get the most use out of it. If you gave us extra two Mirage type clones designed for deception specifically via dodging. It would DO something different as intended.


If you really want to make this Ele up close and personal, the issue is not damage or statistics, Eles already do tons of damage, condi and direct damage alike. That’s not the issue. ( Yes sword has huge lack of damage in that department, but that’s a smaller problem compared to this)

It’s what it does when it gets up in your face. Weavers should be centered around:
A. Evading
B. Parrying
C. Blocking
D. Dazes/other interrupts

Dual attacks need to be built around this in spades.

ALL available on the Weapon bar, not utilities, but interactively via sword and dual attacks. Barrier is not interactive enough, its passive too similar to auras, we need something where we can INTERACT differently to our world and environment as an unclose bruiser, not just a new variety of passives (barrier).

Here are some skills from other professions as examples.

As you can see, the purpose of bringing Weaver in this direction with it’s Sword and Dual Attacks would be to allow it to ACTUALLY go toe to toe in melee range, you are NOT just doing damage “one step closer,” you are blocking! parrying! evading! and so forth.

All of which Ele’s had very little off. The ONLY way Ele’s could block is through passives through boons and auras, but not ACTUAL physical blocking like warriors, rangers, or guardians. That’s what allowed them to melee when they did.

Hope this reaches to you well guys and gals!

I would have posted this on either of the profession forums, but there were two who shared the same problem, so i brought it to Gw2 main discussion

(edited by Tzozef.9841)

Two Elite Specs need serious reconsideration

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Posted by: BadSanta.6527


say thanx that your not a ranger main

Two Elite Specs need serious reconsideration

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Posted by: Genesis.5169


I absolutely agree with you on the weaver, its just not built to pvp at all it, mirages biggest issue is that the dodge invul time is way shorter then regular dodge i actually feel more squishy using that dodge then the old one tbh.

These forums are a joke its not for opinions or debate its just a safe place for people to cry at.

Two Elite Specs need serious reconsideration

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Posted by: Thornum.8607


I like your approach (concept vs what it does), and I love your idea for the Mirage, very thematic!

Do try to keep your tone constructive as well (your feedback itself already was), feedback is perceived better that way.

Two Elite Specs need serious reconsideration

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: BunjiKugashira.9754


I like your approaches. The mirage one looks like it will really make the mirage do what it’s supposed to do.

As for the weaver: sword not providing the means to survive in melee range is only half the story.

CONCEPT – Weave two elements at once, surprising your enemy by creating opportunities with mixed element attacks. The enemy never knows what’s coming next.
WHAT IT DOES – By putting the 4 and 5 skill in a queue and only accessing the skill you want after 4 seconds, weavers pay a huge opportunity cost. The long global cooldown limits the weaver’s options further, almost enforcing a strict rotation and making the weaver probably the most predictable elementalist of all times.

A possible solution would be to allow switching the mainhand and offhand attunements independently (F5 to switch between main- and offhand) and to track cooldowns for main- and offhand attunement switches separately.

Shana Flamewielder
Sylvari Elementalist of [SFF]
Abaddons Maul

Two Elite Specs need serious reconsideration

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Posted by: FrizzFreston.5290


I don’t see them reworking any of the elite specializations at all. In a Months time they are releasing the expansion, they should focus on balance and bugfixes.

Plus at some point you’re going to run into "but this class already does close melee damage, close condi damage, ranged condi damage, ranged damage and support. There is nothing new to this new spec, thing.

Some of your “what it does” explanations are fairly biased just to prove your point.

The Main functionality of the weaver is using two elements at once. You don’t even mention it in the what it does department. Especially with elementalist which has access to all of those things at any given time. And they can only use one weapon set. This means that a weaver can be ranged or medium ranged as well by using other weapons with weaver specced.

While adding a new weapon to each elite spec IS a thing, I do think that that isn’t the main feature of each elite spec. You need to take into account all the other weapons you can use as well.

“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik

(edited by FrizzFreston.5290)