Guild Wars 2

Hi guys,

I have a simple question today. what do you guys think the meta is right now? is it still Zerker? With the latest builds I find myself moving away from zerker with most of my characters. what are your thoughts?

Meta is still burst damage + active defenses, nothing changed about that. I don’t know if someone crafted a condi-build that can burst as hard as a direct damage build.

Ok that makes sense. It had always been my belief that raw dmg had been the meta with the philosophy, Kill the enemy faster than the enemy can kill me. I would like to see someone specify one of those condi-builds (as i want to say they exsist)

None of the condi builds can compete with direct dmg builds atm. Some might have a burst relative to direct dmg but then run into cooldowns and very low sustained dps when direct dmg keeps pumping.

Brostrodon.1657:

Hi guys,

I have a simple question today. what do you guys think the meta is right now? is it still Zerker? With the latest builds I find myself moving away from zerker with most of my characters. what are your thoughts?

I feel some classes like War were pushed further towards Zerk, others are more geared towards condi or celi.

Zerk elitist will be erroneously entrenched into thinking Zerk is best for everything. Try coming at your class with a clear head and then determine what actually works best.

Marthkus.4615:

I feel some classes like War were pushed further towards Zerk, others are more geared towards condi or celi.

Zerk elitist will be erroneously entrenched into thinking Zerk is best for everything. Try coming at your class with a clear head and then determine what actually works best.

I find it interesting that you said you feel like War was pushed further towards zerk. War seems to be the most versatile class in the game. There seems to be way more options to go with it and still do decent to good dmg

Are we talking meta for PvE?

I find myself gravitating more toward power/precision/condi builds with the recent changes. With virtually no cap on conditions, condition builds are IMO putting more pressure on the zerker builds than they did previously. I think zerker is still the accepted meta because those infrequent 20k bursts are beautiful whereas a sustainable 2.5k raw damage plus 5k+ of total condi damage seems rather plain in comparison. However, I would guess that good condi builds have better damage over time than zerker builds. If it’s a short and easy fight, I’d obviously go with the massive burst damage of the zerker. If it’s a long and difficult fight, I’d rather have decent raw power plus sustainable high condi damage. A sinister build may not put out the sexy numbers like a zerker build, but it’s more versatile (raw power for high vitality foes plus condi for highly armored foes).

If the mordrem we have now are anything like the enemies in HoT, I think a new PvE meta will emerge at least for those areas. I mean, my meta zerker warrior cannot melee the mordrem in SW for very long before dropping dead from the constant conditions or switching to ranged attack which does not put out the sexy numbers that melee does. I think ranged weapons and a higher survivability will be needed; neither of which are suited for the current full zerker builds. We could see more people sporting carrion and soldier’s gear when HoT comes out and maybe even a use for healing power and healers in general! (I won’t hold my breath on that one though.)

Karma you have some really awesome points.
This was the kind of thing I was thinking about. My thoughts were that since condition dmg is actually good now, and i wondered if this was changing the way people were doing builds. I know there are die hard Zerk elitists out there who wouldn’t even consider switching to some condi-dmg instead, even if it was more consistent. And granted Zerker does put up sexy numbers. My hope is that when HoT is released we will see some different builds and different armor stats and less people with the thought that only Zerker is the way to go, even tho it does put those sexy numbers up like u said.

It’s actually a calculator thing, not just seeing bigger numbers on the screen.

You are correct that it is easier to mix condi with tank, and that may become neccesary in HoT. We’re hoping at least, to some extent.

When you do a straight up DPS calculation, zerker still usually comes on top, even when using conditions from your skills. However, here’s a few notes on both:

Physical damage:
Is applied instantly and cannot be removed after application
Can crit
Is affected by more damage boosting traits, runes and team bonuses
—-
Can be evaded
Is reduced by toughness
Is reduced by weakness
Can be reflected, retaliated or made too dangerous to apply in melee
Requires three stats for optimal application

Condition damage:
Cannot be evaded once applied
Bypasses toughness entirely
Requires only 1-2 stats for optimal application (can mix with tank/healing)
Does not proc confusion/retaliation per tick
—-
Can (QUITE FREQUENTLY) be removed before doing its full damage
Can be converted to boons on enemies or reflected back onto you
Cannot crit
Has fewer modifiers and does not multiply up as much as physical damage with team bonuses (such as frost spirit, banners, spotter)
Lacks instant application

The whole point of the PvE meta is to put up those sexy numbers. Those “infrequent 20k hits” you are talking about are quite common and more like 30k+. Basically by the time the condition build user is done stacking some bleeds, burning, etc., the zerker has already cleaved through the enemies and is running to the next fight.

serenke.4806:

The whole point of the PvE meta is to put up those sexy numbers. Those “infrequent 20k hits” you are talking about are quite common and more like 30k+. Basically by the time the condition build user is done stacking some bleeds, burning, etc., the zerker has already cleaved through the enemies and is running to the next fight.

Ehh, for trash yes, it’s an issue for condi when you can only get 1-2s in, but at least for engi you’re ramped up by about kitten in, so not a big deal for bosses. That said, condi is far more fickle than power damage. Most professions can do quite well with power right now, but for condi there are some professions proficient in power but weak in condi. Both power and condi engi for example are on the top end of damage.

I get 25 might in dungeons and perma fury… I run sigil of bloodlust

this coupled with empower allies and banner of strength gives me 3200 + power and 2300 + condition dmg with 70 % + crit chance

even though SS has a lousy autoattack (1500/hit (very fast though)) it will be able to stack up to 18 bleeds and 33+ when fully ramped, 5 torment, immobilizes burning and much more… most people tend to forget though S/S has 2 good DPS attacks behind skills #3 and #4 these will do 9000+ and 4500+ dmg on hit and a quite good ranged swap weapon able to do 6K dmg on burst and decent dmg while stacking burns and bleeds

dps will be lacking but DOT will cure it, and I’m free to res ppl while my conditions continue ticking for a couple of seconds (~16s)

What is Meta?

Baby don’t hurt me. Don’t hurt me. No more.

meta!

Karma.1498:

However, I would guess that good condi builds have better damage over time than zerker builds.

They don’t, sorry to burst your bubble on the topic.

Brostrodon.1657:

Marthkus.4615:

I feel some classes like War were pushed further towards Zerk, others are more geared towards condi or celi.

Zerk elitist will be erroneously entrenched into thinking Zerk is best for everything. Try coming at your class with a clear head and then determine what actually works best.

I find it interesting that you said you feel like War was pushed further towards zerk. War seems to be the most versatile class in the game. There seems to be way more options to go with it and still do decent to good dmg

Wars can afford a lot due to their high HP and Armor base values. Guardians rely heavily on active defenses, which can vary between builds; But War HP is always there.

NikeEU.7690:

Karma.1498:

However, I would guess that good condi builds have better damage over time than zerker builds.

They don’t, sorry to burst your bubble on the topic.

Got some – I dunno – math to back that up? Or are we just supposed to take your word for it?

I do a level 29 fractal with my full zerk meta warrior and get mossman. After I’ve maxed out my might stacks, my GS skill 2 puts out on average 25k. Casting time of 3.5 sec and cooldown of 8 seconds. My GS 1 attack does on average 3k damage per tick. In 11.5 seconds, I’ve done 49k damage.

I do the same fractal level against the same boss with my sinister/rampager burn guard but with no might. My 1 skill averages 2k per tick and by just using skill 4 with a torch, the passives from my virtue, and the burn chance from my sigil of fire, I get another 4k total per tick from conditions. In 11.5 seconds, I’ve done 65k damage. And that’s not even using the 2 utility skills that can put out even more burning stacks. Certainly a well-built condi necro or ele could improve upon my guard’s condition numbers.

Granted, those are quick tests without using any utility skills, only two weapon skills, and very simplistic math, but you can see my point. A good condi build can certainly keep up with the typical zerker build. Zerker may turn out to be a little better with better testing, but there really is no need to scoff at good condi builds anymore. The damage difference (if there even is any) is minimal.

Karma.1498:

Got some – I dunno – math to back that up? Or are we just supposed to take your word for it?

He has. (DnT is probably the most known guild concerning theorycrafting in PvE)

Karma.1498:

I do a level 29 fractal with my full zerk meta warrior and get mossman. After I’ve maxed out my might stacks, my GS skill 2 puts out on average 25k. Casting time of 3.5 sec and cooldown of 8 seconds. My GS 1 attack does on average 3k damage per tick. In 11.5 seconds, I’ve done 49k damage.

I do the same fractal level against the same boss with my sinister/rampager burn guard but with no might. My 1 skill averages 2k per tick and by just using skill 4 with a torch, the passives from my virtue, and the burn chance from my sigil of fire, I get another 4k total per tick from conditions. In 11.5 seconds, I’ve done 65k damage. And that’s not even using the 2 utility skills that can put out even more burning stacks. Certainly a well-built condi necro or ele could improve upon my guard’s condition numbers.

Granted, those are quick tests without using any utility skills, only two weapon skills, and very simplistic math, but you can see my point. A good condi build can certainly keep up with the typical zerker build. Zerker may turn out to be a little better with better testing, but there really is no need to scoff at good condi builds anymore. The damage difference (if there even is any) is minimal.

Average 25k on 100b ? It should be easily 35k… (assuming your team is meta as well).

engi is probably the best condi class for PvE and condi engi is around 15k dps i think, berserker 17k (in optimal situations).

also 65k in 11.5 seconds is 5700 dps, which is pretty low.

Rahveiz.7461:

Karma.1498:

Got some – I dunno – math to back that up? Or are we just supposed to take your word for it?

He has. (DnT is probably the most known guild concerning theorycrafting in PvE)

As of two weeks ago, DnT had nothing comparing condi builds directly to zerker builds under the same circumstances. If they’ve posted something since, I’d love to see it.

Rahveiz.7461:

Average 25k on 100b ? It should be easily 35k… (assuming your team is meta as well).

I had a couple friends help me with wisps and then went solo against mossman to get those numbers.

Any build that could deal high damage with celestial gear, will benefit from Sinister. Engineers dish out both conditions and direct damage, so I anticipate that they will get higher numbers with Sinister gear.

Another advantage of condition builds is that they can more easily keep up conditions such as chill, weakness, vulnerability, and immobilized.

Karma.1498:

As of two weeks ago, DnT had nothing comparing condi builds directly to zerker builds under the same circumstances. If they’ve posted something since, I’d love to see it.

The only condi build that is close to optimal in groups is Engineer. The rest are distinctly suboptimal in reference to the direct damage counterparts. You can either trust me, or not based on my past history of being pretty accurate in my statements. But before you accuse me of being part of some anti-condi conspiracy just be aware that having condi builds be meta would be the best thing possible for me as a youtube content creator. So the fact that I’m saying it’s not optimal despite it being greatly in my interests for it to be optimal should help you figure out if I’m tell you the truth or not.

NikeEU.7690:

Karma.1498:

As of two weeks ago, DnT had nothing comparing condi builds directly to zerker builds under the same circumstances. If they’ve posted something since, I’d love to see it.

The only condi build that is close to optimal in groups is Engineer. The rest are distinctly suboptimal in reference to the direct damage counterparts. You can either trust me, or not based on my past history of being pretty accurate in my statements. But before you accuse me of being part of some anti-condi conspiracy just be aware that having condi builds be meta would be the best thing possible for me as a youtube content creator. So the fact that I’m saying it’s not optimal despite it being greatly in my interests for it to be optimal should help you figure out if I’m tell you the truth or not.

I’d love to trust you, really, but you’re basically telling me that you have no evidence or will provide no evidence that an optimized zerker build does more damage OVER TIME than an optimized sinister/rampager build. (I’m not arguing that a zerker cleaves their way through a trash mob slower than a sinister/rampager does.) Have you done any standardized test to compare damage output over time outside of a party? Have you recorded solo battles against the same exact level 80 champion using optimized zerker vs. condi builds? Do you have any spreadsheets with the formulas and the damage calculations? Have you calculated the average in-game time and damage output to complete a rotation for zerker vs. condi builds? I mean, how do you KNOW you’re being accurate? Personal experience, theoretical formulas, controlled experiments, what? I’m not doubting that you’re being truthful; I’m doubting the validity of your testing methodology (because I don’t know what that methodology is).

I’ve heard the “zerker is best” mantra for years now. Up until a few weeks ago, it really was the best for damage (unless the zerker in question didn’t know how to stay alive), but now with the changes to conditions and traits, it’s hard to believe that choosing ferocity over condition damage is the way to go for classes that have access to an @rsenal of conditions. Obviously certain classes would never do well with condi builds because they don’t have the weapons, skills, and traits for it, but I think the ones that do are closing the damage gap, especially against heavily armored foes.

Karma.1498:

I’d love to trust you, really, but you’re basically telling me that you have no evidence or will provide no evidence that an optimized zerker build does more damage OVER TIME than an optimized sinister/rampager build. (I’m not arguing that a zerker cleaves their way through a trash mob slower than a sinister/rampager does.)

I have plenty of evidence, actually.

Have you done any standardized test to compare damage output over time outside of a party?

Yes.

Have you recorded solo battles against the same exact level 80 champion using optimized zerker vs. condi builds?

That is only tangentially related to DPS.

Do you have any spreadsheets with the formulas and the damage calculations?

Yes.

Have you calculated the average in-game time and damage output to complete a rotation for zerker vs. condi builds? I mean, how do you KNOW you’re being accurate?

Yes, we know how to do DPS rotations. And how do we know we are accurate? Video evidence. The game’s damage formula isn’t a secret. When you record a DPS rotation it is relatively easy to review the recording and plug in the skill coefficients you see into a damage formula. Calculating condition damage is bit more complicated, but we have proprietary tools for that which are rather advanced.

I’m doubting the validity of your testing methodology (because I don’t know what that methodology is).

http://dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/viewforum/4280860

Take the time to read up on the state of theorycraft in GW2. Some of our things are private simply because we aren’t ready to release preliminary information.

but I think the ones that do are closing the damage gap, especially against heavily armored foes.

Engineer is close. As NoTrigger told you, Condition Engineer in a full group makes 15k dps over long (30 second) fights. Berserker makes 17k. That is the closest gap between condi and direct of any class. The gap is so close that in duos and trios Condi engineer is superior to direct damage, mostly due to greater self-sufficiency. No other class is close enough for that to be true except, perhaps warrior.

I’m still very curious to see more info on the condi Engi stuff and what you all are running.

And, I think +%damage modifiers should work on Condi’s too, maybe that’d bump condi’s over that hump for some professions to be competitive with power? I don’t know, but it still needs a little something… but of course eSports!…

Condis can get food that increase condi duration by 40%. That boost their damage a lot more than zerk food boost zerkers.

Does that push them over the edge? idk.

Marthkus.4615:

Condis can get food that increase condi duration by 40%. That boost their damage a lot more than zerk food boost zerkers.

Does that push them over the edge? idk.

The calculations people run is generally with the best food available. In the case of Engi I believe they run with Koi Cakes (or Rare Veggie Pizza) and the Toxic Tuning Crystal. Both of which are expensive and a bit on the crazy side to use in general play. Personally I go with Super Pizza and Quality Tuning crystals for day to day play.