Maybe I expect too much. But looking back at the vision showed in the manifesto, and then thinking about the game as it stands now, i cant help asking what happened? Where did the drive and ambition go? How have we descended from aspiring to challenge the elder dragons, to now being effectively mercenaries committing genocide over a beach resort?
I feel like I’ve been promised a new Ferrari, and then I’m actually given one, only to find out its got no petrol, the tires are flat, the battery is dead, and no one can quite remember where the keys are.
Fantastic post very well articulated.
The trick is hiding what people may consider a grind behind fun activities. If GW2 wasn’t such a beautiful world, I would consider Map Completion grinding.
To me it is a grind because the hearts become very repetitive, The game would be better if it was all dynamic events.
The ambition and drive rolled over dead around the time they did halloween… It’s like the sheer mass of money they got from desperate players trying to get the skins went straight to their head and they can’t bring themselves to do anything without having a extreme version of gambling tacked onto it… To encourage this they lower drop rates to reduce gold in game so that players feel more inclined to spend cash to get gems to spend on the gambling… A bunch of people will lie to themselves using the argument “NUH UH” but anyone with a lick of sense knows it’s the truth… I still play the game despite how it’s turning out because I love the concepts and that’s what makes me so passionate about the game… The fact I keep seeing 1 badly implemented thing after another paired with the temporary content just saddens me to no end… All I can honestly ask myself is why are they letting it turn out this way… Why let down some of the older fans who have supported them since the launch of the original gw1.. Why let down so many fans in general ?
The holiday events to me make sense because the’ll come back every year but the living story being content that gets added for a month then removed… It’s like they build a extravagant mansion and show it off for a month…. Then they tear it down and build another 1 block over… Nothing is left but the memory of the other extravagant mansion…. That and the bitter memory of the gambling booth that was where the garage was supposed to be.
I feel like I’ve been promised a new Ferrari, and then I’m actually given one, only to find out its got no petrol, the tires are flat, the battery is dead, and no one can quite remember where the keys are.
Oh dear lord if that’s your problem … This only happens with overeducated people, those without any degrees wouldn’t see the problem. Ask your gardener for help.
I’ve got a compressor in the shed, petrol is a 5 minutes walk and the battery I’ll charge overnight. Who needs keys. Enjoy your Ferrari. Educated people really can’t solve the most basic problems.
But more accurate comparison … you were promised a Porsche, you expected a Ferrari, you got a Porsche and are now complaining you didn’t get a Ferrari.
But I think the game does match the manifesto.
I laughed pretty hard when I read this. Stop making excuses and reading into things. The game doesn’t match the manifesto, no matter how many times you or others say it does- people here have provided good examples of why it doesn’t. The implications of this, however, are up for debate.
But I think the game does match the manifesto.
I laughed pretty hard when I read this. Stop making excuses and reading into things. The game doesn’t match the manifesto, no matter how many times you or others say it does- people here have provided good examples of why it doesn’t. The implications of this, however, are up for debate.
I always have to laugh when people take a manifesto as an infallible unchangeable gospel that’s written by Dwayna and not humans. It is a statement that underlines the idea for the game, is pretty much open for interpretation and basically gives a direction. That direction still holds, and the manifesto has not been changed nor violated in my perception.
The cherry picked and quoted mined arguments by forum heroes don’t cut it for me. I play the game, I see the manifesto being implemented with every patch, with my own eyes. That’s what’s important to me.
In more detail…here’s the Colin Johanson paragraph that most people quote when they talk about grind…the WHOLE paragraph:
Colin Johanson: “When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”
Where does it talk about gear or mats or farming in this paragraph? Does anyone else not actually remember the original definition of grind in MMOs, before people started calling farming grinding?
Grinding was killing stuff to level. In most games you had to kill stuff over and over again to level. Aion ran out of quests and the only way to level was to kill bosses. Over and over again. That’s the grind he was talking about.
He’s talking about stuff like having big encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in a starter zone. He’s talking about stuff like being able to go right from level 2 into SPvP without doing PvE at all. He’s talking about bring the fun back to leveling.
Now you may or may not like the leveling, but that’s what he’s talking about, and for many of us, Anet accomplished what they were trying to do. This game has the best, most fun leveling experience of any MMO I’ve ever played.
There is no “original” definition of grinding for a mmo. The term grind can refer to all kinds of things, it just depends on what a player finds distasteful. Have to get an attunement? Some called that a grind. Want a particular rare mount or drop? Some people call that a grind. Rep gains, crafting, walking, gathering, filling a Heart quest, map completion, jumping puzzles, achievements, PvP ranks, Fractals, filling a DE bar, you name it…can be called a grind if people don’t enjoy it.
The trick is hiding what people may consider a grind behind fun activities. If GW2 wasn’t such a beautiful world, I would consider Map Completion grinding. If I didn’t enjoy the combat system, killing stuff for any reason would be a grind. If I didn’t enjoy farming, Legendaries would be a grind. I actually can not stand jumping puzzles and consider them to be a grind when there is content behind them I want to get to.
Obviously they failed at making leveling fun for everyone. Many people forgo the leveling process altogether and do it by sidestepping the content. Killing SB is much the same as killing the Shatterer or any other meta boss. The dungeons, which have arbitrary mechanics and which are filled with gimmicky boss fights, have to be done a ridiculous amount of times in order to accomplish anything. Everything in the game is centered around getting to max level as fast as you can, and it’s pretty fast- about an hour a level for normal players. Leveling is trivialized and it behooves a player to get to 80 as soon as possible, then continue doing everything else. The problem here is that there just isn’t anything waiting, just the exact same stuff you’ve seen at level 10.
You’re complete wrong about this. There was/is an original definition ie, the first definition that was used, and what many old time MMOers STILL use. This is from wikipedia, the very first paragraph.
Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games. 12 The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like World of Warcraft, Tibia, or Lineage 3 in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. MUDs, generally sharing much of the same gameplay as MMORPGs, encounter the same problem. Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features.
So I’m not making this up. And since the rest of the paragraph in question was specifically about combat and fun things to do while leveling, no one can POSSIBLY construe that has having anything to do with gear grind or grinding for a legendary.
Gear was not mentioned in the paragraph. I’m pretty sure most people who aren’t being disingenuous will admit that Colin was in no way talking about gear grind, which is another issue entirely.
But I think the game does match the manifesto.
I laughed pretty hard when I read this. Stop making excuses and reading into things. The game doesn’t match the manifesto, no matter how many times you or others say it does- people here have provided good examples of why it doesn’t. The implications of this, however, are up for debate.
I laughed pretty hard when I read this. Your inability to actually see what the manifesto said and what it means is completely underwhelming. No matter how many times you say that it doesn’t match the manifesto, it doesn’t make you right.
The examples provided by others leave out words, misintepret basic information and completely ignore the explanation that came out immediately following the manifesto in the areas where people were confused. If you don’t want to take into account the very public clarication published immediately after the manifesto came out, I would suggest that’s your problem.
The trick is hiding what people may consider a grind behind fun activities. If GW2 wasn’t such a beautiful world, I would consider Map Completion grinding.
To me it is a grind because the hearts become very repetitive, The game would be better if it was all dynamic events.
The game was originally all dynamic events. But people wouldn’t stay and wait for them, they simply ran in a straight line doing nothing. Hearts were added to solve a problem because of what happened during play testing. They were a relatively late addition to the game.
In more detail…here’s the Colin Johanson paragraph that most people quote when they talk about grind…the WHOLE paragraph:
Colin Johanson: “When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”
Where does it talk about gear or mats or farming in this paragraph? Does anyone else not actually remember the original definition of grind in MMOs, before people started calling farming grinding?
Grinding was killing stuff to level. In most games you had to kill stuff over and over again to level. Aion ran out of quests and the only way to level was to kill bosses. Over and over again. That’s the grind he was talking about.
He’s talking about stuff like having big encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in a starter zone. He’s talking about stuff like being able to go right from level 2 into SPvP without doing PvE at all. He’s talking about bring the fun back to leveling.
Now you may or may not like the leveling, but that’s what he’s talking about, and for many of us, Anet accomplished what they were trying to do. This game has the best, most fun leveling experience of any MMO I’ve ever played.
There is no “original” definition of grinding for a mmo. The term grind can refer to all kinds of things, it just depends on what a player finds distasteful. Have to get an attunement? Some called that a grind. Want a particular rare mount or drop? Some people call that a grind. Rep gains, crafting, walking, gathering, filling a Heart quest, map completion, jumping puzzles, achievements, PvP ranks, Fractals, filling a DE bar, you name it…can be called a grind if people don’t enjoy it.
The trick is hiding what people may consider a grind behind fun activities. If GW2 wasn’t such a beautiful world, I would consider Map Completion grinding. If I didn’t enjoy the combat system, killing stuff for any reason would be a grind. If I didn’t enjoy farming, Legendaries would be a grind. I actually can not stand jumping puzzles and consider them to be a grind when there is content behind them I want to get to.
Obviously they failed at making leveling fun for everyone. Many people forgo the leveling process altogether and do it by sidestepping the content. Killing SB is much the same as killing the Shatterer or any other meta boss. The dungeons, which have arbitrary mechanics and which are filled with gimmicky boss fights, have to be done a ridiculous amount of times in order to accomplish anything. Everything in the game is centered around getting to max level as fast as you can, and it’s pretty fast- about an hour a level for normal players. Leveling is trivialized and it behooves a player to get to 80 as soon as possible, then continue doing everything else. The problem here is that there just isn’t anything waiting, just the exact same stuff you’ve seen at level 10.
You’re complete wrong about this. There was/is an original definition ie, the first definition that was used, and what many old time MMOers STILL use. This is from wikipedia, the very first paragraph.
Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games. 12 The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like World of Warcraft, Tibia, or Lineage 3 in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. MUDs, generally sharing much of the same gameplay as MMORPGs, encounter the same problem. Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features.
So I’m not making this up. And since the rest of the paragraph in question was specifically about combat and fun things to do while leveling, no one can POSSIBLY construe that has having anything to do with gear grind or grinding for a legendary.
Gear was not mentioned in the paragraph. I’m pretty sure most people who aren’t being disingenuous will admit that Colin was in no way talking about gear grind, which is another issue entirely.
Fail at reading comprehension much? Look at the words used. The most common usage- ie meaning not the only. And Wikipedia? Seriously? lol, Did you even bother to check the referenced sources for the article? Of course not. You are embarrassing yourself.
Fail at reading comprehension much? Look at the words used. The most common usage- ie meaning not the only. And Wikipedia? Seriously? lol, Did you even bother to check the referenced sources for the article? Of course not. You are embarrassing yourself.
1/ Wikipedia is a very reliable source, that has been confirmed on several occasions
2/ most common usage is a very good definition unless you deliberately reframe something to suit an agenda. I’d go with the wiki definition over yours any day of the week.
3/ the sources claim the same.
There’s only one person embarrassing himself.
I agree with the side claiming that they still stick to their manifesto for a big part. Any post with “there’s grind in GW2, look the legendary, so the manifesto is BS” is unfortunately another example of someone that can not read between the lines. They of course meant ‘no grind to get to the fun stuff’ (which they said clearly btw), and that is correct. The leveling part is a blast which is really something rare in MMOs.
But there is one critic on which I fully agree : they didn’t deliver on competitive PvP, until now at least. Late tools implementation, no competition support (news, interviews, tournaments, cash prizes), excessive separation between that part of the game and the rest … Clearly their biggest fail and their only true lie in the manifesto.
For the PvE, people expect too much I’d say. Since the start there is (was, counting the temporary content) in my opinion more than 1k hour worth of content to do. That is more than enough for a 60$ game, and probably 3 times more than what you had in GW1 before Factions (talking pure PvE here). It is completely normal that people that went way over that threashold are getting bored of the game now, and that is not a “let down” by the developers. Only an expansion could just push that threshold further away.
(edited by Ouroboros.5076)
In more detail…here’s the Colin Johanson paragraph that most people quote when they talk about grind…the WHOLE paragraph:
Colin Johanson: “When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”
Where does it talk about gear or mats or farming in this paragraph? Does anyone else not actually remember the original definition of grind in MMOs, before people started calling farming grinding?
Grinding was killing stuff to level. In most games you had to kill stuff over and over again to level. Aion ran out of quests and the only way to level was to kill bosses. Over and over again. That’s the grind he was talking about.
He’s talking about stuff like having big encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in a starter zone. He’s talking about stuff like being able to go right from level 2 into SPvP without doing PvE at all. He’s talking about bring the fun back to leveling.
snip
There is no “original” definition of grinding for a mmo. The term grind can refer to all kinds of things, it just depends on what a player finds distasteful. Have to get an attunement? Some called that a grind. Want a particular rare mount or drop? Some people call that a grind. Rep gains, crafting, walking, gathering, filling a Heart quest, map completion, jumping puzzles, achievements, PvP ranks, Fractals, filling a DE bar, you name it…can be called a grind if people don’t enjoy it.
The trick is hiding what people may consider a grind behind fun activities. If GW2 wasn’t such a beautiful world, I would consider Map Completion grinding. If I didn’t enjoy the combat system, killing stuff for any reason would be a grind. If I didn’t enjoy farming, Legendaries would be a grind. I actually can not stand jumping puzzles and consider them to be a grind when there is content behind them I want to get to.
Obviously they failed at making leveling fun for everyone. Many people forgo the leveling process altogether and do it by sidestepping the content. Killing SB is much the same as killing the Shatterer or any other meta boss. The dungeons, which have arbitrary mechanics and which are filled with gimmicky boss fights, have to be done a ridiculous amount of times in order to accomplish anything. Everything in the game is centered around getting to max level as fast as you can, and it’s pretty fast- about an hour a level for normal players. Leveling is trivialized and it behooves a player to get to 80 as soon as possible, then continue doing everything else. The problem here is that there just isn’t anything waiting, just the exact same stuff you’ve seen at level 10.
snip
Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games. 12 The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like World of Warcraft, Tibia, or Lineage 3 in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. MUDs, generally sharing much of the same gameplay as MMORPGs, encounter the same problem. Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features.
snip
Gear was not mentioned in the paragraph. I’m pretty sure most people who aren’t being disingenuous will admit that Colin was in no way talking about gear grind, which is another issue entirely.
Fail at reading comprehension much? Look at the words used. The most common usage- ie meaning not the only. And Wikipedia? Seriously? lol, Did you even bother to check the referenced sources for the article? Of course not. You are embarrassing yourself.
Common usage means nothing. Seriously. If you can’t tell from reading that paragraph what Colin was talking about, common usage or not common usage, you shouldn’t even be arguing. Because you’re embarrassing yourself.
It’s clearly a paragraph that starts with one thing and ends with another thing. At no point in that ENTIRE paragraph is gear mentioned at all. So you want to take a single word, out of context, while ignoring other words in the paragraph, including the first and last bits of it just to prove a point.
Ever consider becoming a lawyer?
Totally agree with the op’s post. Sadly. Hopefully they will someday get back to their dedication to create a really good game, as we found it in the release version. Perhaps a good expansion can do the trick.
Since someone asked for my ideas for quality endgame, here are a few:
1) If you’re going to put excessive amounts of grinding in your game, make it at least somewhat dynamic for players. Nerf CoF Path 1 to the ground (along with, perhaps, HotW Path 1) and work on your world events. One-shotting AoEs, dashes, heals that have to be interrupted – I mean come on, that stuff isn’t so hard to implement! Currently I have no incentive to be an active participant in these events. What I basically do is, and I’ve mentioned it in my first post, is I double click 1, I alt-tab and do my work online.
2) Evolve the characters to where there’s at least the notion of progression. Every meaningful RPG needs it, every single one! You cannot call skin-grinding an end-game and I’m not talking about a new tier of weapons or armor, or anything stat-worthy even.
* Add branching paths in every skill so you can level up that particular skill and make it different, unique, more powerful. You’re not grinding anything- you’re playing the game the way you want and you’re being rewarded for it. Simple!
* Add special bonuses to certain spells depending on the weapon equipped. If you have a fire dagger as a thief, for example, your Backstab can immolate the target, burning him and causing a short-duration fear. Anything, anything at all, just be creative!
* Give us challenging content that should not or CANNOT be grinded. You teleported to LA and you got a Helm? No! Put that helm in a chest in a solo- instance that’s really, really hard. Put actual work in it, don’t add yet another thing that can be exploited.
There are so many more and why should we be the ones doing this sort of brainstorming? Any quality development team has these people who make up interesting content. There was a TON of engaging stuff while leveling- where did it all go? People are so content with this, frankly, mental farming that they’ve forgotten how to have fun in an RPG.
The game was originally all dynamic events. But people wouldn’t stay and wait for them, they simply ran in a straight line doing nothing. Hearts were added to solve a problem because of what happened during play testing. They were a relatively late addition to the game.
Yes I know, that was a mistake to do that. A dynamic event driven game is the future for the open world side of mmos. With quests only used for story instances.
I laughed pretty hard when I read this. Your inability to actually see what the manifesto said and what it means is completely underwhelming. No matter how many times you say that it doesn’t match the manifesto, it doesn’t make you right.
The examples provided by others leave out words, misintepret basic information and completely ignore the explanation that came out immediately following the manifesto in the areas where people were confused. If you don’t want to take into account the very public clarication published immediately after the manifesto came out, I would suggest that’s your problem.
Well it was misinterpreted by a lot of people then, and in exactly the same way, too many for it to be a mistake IMHO. I know how the game was sold to me prior to the BWEs, which includes not just the manifesto but their other statements around that time, and its not the game we have now. It was a clear change in philosophy from anet.
You can rationalise what they said with the benefit of hindsight all you like but at the time they marketed the game a particular way and I believed it due to their track record with GW1, and they have deviated from that for the worse. And like I said above a lot of people interpreted the marketing the same way.
I’ll just level up my Guardian, I guess, and play the game as a great single player experience. I had a lot of fun leveling up and since the game offers nothing else meaningful past level 80, I’ll stick to just exploring while Tyria is still enjoyable for me.
Also, if anyone at A.net is reading this and I doubt you are, but just in case, I’d like to apologize for putting the blame on you. I realize you guys are the developer, not the publisher, and the horrible gem store practices and RNG abuse are most likely enforced by NCsoft and that revolting lady from Nexon, I forgot her name.
Once again: no, I don’t think I’m burned out on content. I’ve played only Guild Wars 2 this year since I don’t have time to commit to more than one massive title, but my frustration doesn’t stem from merely “well, there’s nothing more to do”. What is aggravating is that there ARE things to do, they’re just being neglected in favour of insanely stupid design choices.
I’d like to elaborate on one decision in your game – why did you create so many dynamic events, dialog chains and interesting locales when, in the end, level 80 players never have an incentive to visit them again? You basically gave us zerg-fests spread around the map which is NOT exploring since we just use waypoints and you called it endgame.
You’re not doing yourselves a favor by not answering our questions in the forums. If anything, you’ll gain many people’s respect by stepping out and shedding some light on these, I dare call them, critical issues. I realize NCsoft may have already sealed the deal with GW2 as their newest cash-cow, but if they aren’t, and you still appreciate your fans’ concerns, then please respond!
As in real life one of the biggest problems in these games are a vast amount of unsociable players or players not able to socialise maybe if they have distractions around them. You can’t avoid distractions that need to be dealt with but just joining in with other players when exploring, have a chat etc isn’t much to ask. And the game needs a proper endgame which right now WvW isnt really right now.
What’s a proper end game? If you’re talking end game as I know it from the WoW-style games, it’s an instance cluster and gear treadmill. This game has dungeons(basically an instance cluster) and ascended gear(basically a gear treadmill). If that’s not enough there are PvP options.. I mean, what are you looking for.. a 12 man raid?
As in real life one of the biggest problems in these games are a vast amount of unsociable players or players not able to socialise maybe if they have distractions around them. You can’t avoid distractions that need to be dealt with but just joining in with other players when exploring, have a chat etc isn’t much to ask. And the game needs a proper endgame which right now WvW isnt really right now.
What’s a proper end game? If you’re talking end game as I know it from the WoW-style games, it’s an instance cluster and gear treadmill. This game has dungeons(basically an instance cluster) and ascended gear(basically a gear treadmill). If that’s not enough there are PvP options.. I mean, what are you looking for.. a 12 man raid?
I think he means that there needs to be more things that players can do that take time. Currently the options for longterm goals are:
-Legendary Weapons
-High-level Fractals
And that’s it. There isn’t much in terms of what to do that takes time for players that play more than a few hours a day.
I feel like I’ve been promised a new Ferrari, and then I’m actually given one, only to find out its got no petrol, the tires are flat, the battery is dead, and no one can quite remember where the keys are.
Oh dear lord if that’s your problem … This only happens with overeducated people, those without any degrees wouldn’t see the problem. Ask your gardener for help.
I’ve got a compressor in the shed, petrol is a 5 minutes walk and the battery I’ll charge overnight. Who needs keys. Enjoy your Ferrari. Educated people really can’t solve the most basic problems.But more accurate comparison … you were promised a Porsche, you expected a Ferrari, you got a Porsche and are now complaining you didn’t get a Ferrari.
No, we were promised a Porsche as an outright purchase, what we actually got was a Vokswagen on some kind of hire purchase agreement.
I don’t understand why some people call this game boring. Yes, it is true that there are some brief boring moments, but all games have them.
This is indeed true. The problem though, is that the boring moment starts when you log in and ends when you log out.
I don’t need to think how to play anymore; it all goes automatically
I don’t understand why some people call this game boring.
Edited for the part that made me giggle.
The problem though, is that the boring moment starts when you log in and ends when you log out.
I am always amazed by how many people on the internet still struggle with that whole “subjective opinion” thing.
The problem though, is that the boring moment starts when you log in and ends when you log out.
I am always amazed by how many people on the internet still struggle with that whole “subjective opinion” thing.
What evidence do you have that pricer thinks he stated anything but his opinion?
The problem though, is that the boring moment starts when you log in and ends when you log out.
I am always amazed by how many people on the internet still struggle with that whole “subjective opinion” thing.
What evidence do you have that pricer thinks he stated anything but his opinion?
He made an absolute statement with no implication of it being an opinion.
The problem though, is that the boring moment starts when you log in and ends when you log out.
I am always amazed by how many people on the internet still struggle with that whole “subjective opinion” thing.
What evidence do you have that pricer thinks he stated anything but his opinion?
He made an absolute statement with no implication of it being an opinion.
This is an internet forum. People should not have to put “imo” on a post that’s obviously a subjective statement, and thus their opinion. If it’s not a statement of fact (“Berserker gear contains the +Critical Damage stat.”) then it’s an opinion (“Berserker gear is better for PvE.”).
I laughed pretty hard when I read this. Your inability to actually see what the manifesto said and what it means is completely underwhelming. No matter how many times you say that it doesn’t match the manifesto, it doesn’t make you right.
The examples provided by others leave out words, misintepret basic information and completely ignore the explanation that came out immediately following the manifesto in the areas where people were confused. If you don’t want to take into account the very public clarication published immediately after the manifesto came out, I would suggest that’s your problem.
Well it was misinterpreted by a lot of people then, and in exactly the same way, too many for it to be a mistake IMHO. I know how the game was sold to me prior to the BWEs, which includes not just the manifesto but their other statements around that time, and its not the game we have now. It was a clear change in philosophy from anet.
You can rationalise what they said with the benefit of hindsight all you like but at the time they marketed the game a particular way and I believed it due to their track record with GW1, and they have deviated from that for the worse. And like I said above a lot of people interpreted the marketing the same way.
You mean most people have terrible reading comprehension skills. I agree. Most people hear what they want to hear and read what they want to read. My problem is I’m a professional editor and can’t afford to do that. And as a writer I know how to research. There’s very very little that happened in this game that I wasn’t prepared for, because before launch Anet was pretty much crystal clear on how everything worked including personal story, dynamic events, etc.
And a manifesto is nothing more than a statement of intent, not an ad for what the game is or will. be. Another thing people don’t understand.
The problem though, is that the boring moment starts when you log in and ends when you log out.
I am always amazed by how many people on the internet still struggle with that whole “subjective opinion” thing.
What evidence do you have that pricer thinks he stated anything but his opinion?
He made an absolute statement with no implication of it being an opinion.
This is an internet forum. People should not have to put “imo” on a post that’s obviously a subjective statement, and thus their opinion. If it’s not a statement of fact (“Berserker gear contains the +Critical Damage stat.”) then it’s an opinion (“Berserker gear is better for PvE.”).
In a perfect world I would agree with you, but at twenty eight years old I’ve seen literally millions of posts with people arguing “obvious opinions” as facts with an almost religious zeal. And in a world where intent and unspoken context do not translate into text and the odds are at best even that someone is trying to argue an opinion as a fact then you do actually have to state somewhere that you’re just expressing an opinion.
The problem though, is that the boring moment starts when you log in and ends when you log out.
I am always amazed by how many people on the internet still struggle with that whole “subjective opinion” thing.
What evidence do you have that pricer thinks he stated anything but his opinion?
He made an absolute statement with no implication of it being an opinion.
This is an internet forum. People should not have to put “imo” on a post that’s obviously a subjective statement, and thus their opinion. If it’s not a statement of fact (“Berserker gear contains the +Critical Damage stat.”) then it’s an opinion (“Berserker gear is better for PvE.”).
In a perfect world I would agree with you, but at twenty eight years old I’ve seen literally millions of posts with people arguing “obvious opinions” as facts with an almost religious zeal. And in a world where intent and unspoken context do not translate into text and the odds are at best even that someone is trying to argue an opinion as a fact then you do actually have to state somewhere that you’re just expressing an opinion.
It’s a matter of how you express yourself. Saying, “this movie sucks” is obviously an opinion but it IMPLIES that the movie objectively sucks. Saying “I didn’t really like the movie”, or even “I hated the movie”. has a completely different connotation.
Most people don’t really pay attention to the subtle nuances of language. For those who do, it’s hard to tell if someone is trying to say something is objectively or subjectively bad.
Maybe I expect too much. But looking back at the vision showed in the manifesto, and then thinking about the game as it stands now, i cant help asking what happened? Where did the drive and ambition go? How have we descended from aspiring to challenge the elder dragons, to now being effectively mercenaries committing genocide over a beach resort?
Easy: because MMO players want mediocrity, so that’s all ArenaNet has been giving us. Ever since the game was released, the loudest and most common criticism here has not been about holes in the story, about how dynamic events could have been better, and so on; no, it has been about grinding. Players of classic MMOs are addicted to grind, and that’s all they want. ArenaNet originally intended to cater to those who do not like other MMOs, but they failed to do so, and therefore the GW2 community is made by grinders, farmers, addicts and exploiters who couldn’t care less about “elder dragons” and etc.
Take a look at the Southsun event, it’s the perfect example. Horrible storytelling, mediocre events… But with 200% Magic Find, chest-giving events happening in multiple places of the island with a short cooldown, and a boss that has zero interesting mechanics, but that gives players two (I’m sure ArenaNet wants players to read that as “OMG, TWO!!!!111!!”) rare items.
I doubt any MMO will be better than this. The current community of MMORPG players won’t let it be so.
You mean most people have terrible reading comprehension skills. I agree. Most people hear what they want to hear and read what they want to read.
Case in point, someone hearing Colin saying “We don’t want players to grind” and making up all kinds of excuses as to why no, it doesn’t mean that ArenaNet does not want players to grind. Denial must be a great thing.
I now understand why all the content we’ve been seeing is temporary. It’s not a gift from A.net, it’s not the passionate work of designers who couldn’t care less about money – no, the sad truth is, it’s just an attempt to get people back in the game before the stuff expires. None of it is for the sake of lore or immersion, don’t let them bullkitten you – it’s the cold reality of a game that, like many, has turned rotten because of the desire of both developers and publishers to cash in on a product, rather than provide an experience worthy of remembrance.
Pretty much, you may notice that there’s temporary content every month or so…effectively they’re attempting to foster the same mentality as a subscription only difference being one you need to pay to experience (so you’re pretty much guaranteed to be logging in) compared with if you aren’t logging in in this limited window you won’t be experiencing content.
The whole thing is about getting $$$ not providing a good game, it’s the same thing with the cash shop chests/lockboxes it’s an exploitation of their customers naivety for $$$ rather than offering a paid way to get the rare skin because they make more exploiting the customer with minuscule change. It took 9 years for Anet to get a solid reputation but it’s taken 9 months for them to really start ruining it and start being another company people don’t trust and with the general MMO player once you screw you up there isn’t any second chance.
Case in point, someone hearing Colin saying “We don’t want players to grind” and making up all kinds of excuses as to why no, it doesn’t mean that ArenaNet does not want players to grind. Denial must be a great thing.
Context is important. It is pretty clear if you actually take into account everything Colin said in that segment it is obvious that he was talking about grinding to unlock content, like gear gating or raid progression. And when was the last time you needed to grind to reach new content in Guild Wars 2?
And in a world where intent and unspoken context do not translate into text and the odds are at best even that someone is trying to argue an opinion as a fact then you do actually have to state somewhere that you’re just expressing an opinion.
You do realise that you just did the same thing do you? In your opinion, in this world you do have to state that you are just expressing an opinion. In my opinion obviously. Allegedly.
Case in point, someone hearing Colin saying “We don’t want players to grind” and making up all kinds of excuses as to why no, it doesn’t mean that ArenaNet does not want players to grind. Denial must be a great thing.
It’s so sad to see what happens when people try to explain to an editor how to read English. The idea of a paragraph is to group ideas together. Taking one sentence out of a paragraph and trying to extract meaning from it is called taking a sentence out of context. The rest of the paragraph gives that sentence it’s actual meaning.
Can you show me where in that paragraph it talks about gear grind? How in the name of the seven hells can anyone honestly say that that sentence was about gear grind, when the entire rest of the paragraph COMPLETELY AND LOGICALLY explains what Colin is talking about. Here’s the set up quote that talks about grind…
“In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff.”
What is this topic about? Tasks to do. He’s talking about in other games having to level up to 80 to start playing the game. What he’s NOT talking about is grinding for gear.
In MMO paralance, grind originally referred to killing enemies over and over again to level. Grindy games were korean grinders that you had to kill stuff over and over again to get to the next level. Farming is not grinding.
But it doesn’t matter. You can take one sentence out of a paragraph and try to say it means something it doesn’t. The rest of the paragraph disagrees with you.
One sentence does not a paragraph make.
For me GW2 is like the new episodes from the star wars saga.
Compared to the old ones its just flat, a clichee and almost a persiflage of itself with stunning visual effects added.
GW2 is like a disney themepark ride of GW1.
GW2 is like a beatiful chick but as soon as she opens her mouth…
Sure, there are things I enjoy and which I find an improvement over GW1.
But GW2 has lost the core what made GW1 so successfull (for me).
It shouldnt even be called “Guild Wars” at all….maybe Tyria Wars /shrug
There is no G U I L D Wars in GW2 and please dont start with that ridiculous lore excuse.
Lore is (should be) the explanation for the game(play) and not the other way round.
But thats just a side note.
Manifesto, Manifesto, Manifestooooo…its PR blabla and PR has ZERO worth.
They simply screwed their old fan base and now try some mish mash to appease everyone…
OP I feel ya. Should have stuck with the other MMOs and if not for my guildies I would have uninstalled months ago. Most of em feel like you, but have so much time invested in it they don’t want to leave.
It’s like one of those abusive relationships. They know the next living update content is going to be a giant let down, but they can’t help it anymore.
Aren’t you guys getting tired of making the same kind of dramatic post about how bad the game is and how you will quit etc…?
Case in point, someone hearing Colin saying “We don’t want players to grind” and making up all kinds of excuses as to why no, it doesn’t mean that ArenaNet does not want players to grind. Denial must be a great thing.
It’s so sad to see what happens when people try to explain to an editor how to read English. The idea of a paragraph is to group ideas together. Taking one sentence out of a paragraph and trying to extract meaning from it is called taking a sentence out of context. The rest of the paragraph gives that sentence it’s actual meaning.
Can you show me where in that paragraph it talks about gear grind? How in the name of the seven hells can anyone honestly say that that sentence was about gear grind, when the entire rest of the paragraph COMPLETELY AND LOGICALLY explains what Colin is talking about. Here’s the set up quote that talks about grind…
“In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff.”
What is this topic about? Tasks to do. He’s talking about in other games having to level up to 80 to start playing the game. What he’s NOT talking about is grinding for gear.
In MMO paralance, grind originally referred to killing enemies over and over again to level. Grindy games were korean grinders that you had to kill stuff over and over again to get to the next level. Farming is not grinding.
But it doesn’t matter. You can take one sentence out of a paragraph and try to say it means something it doesn’t. The rest of the paragraph disagrees with you.
One sentence does not a paragraph make.
You go to great stretches to argue your points, and in my opinion often overstretch in the process. I think that there are different ways to interpret “this paragraph”, and you have provided one interpretation. You seem to not accept that others may have other valid interpretations, and just simply brush them off, even going as far as to criticize their reading comprehension.
For example, perhaps due to being more challenging, Fractals 30 is “the fun stuff” for me. In order to be appropriately geared to do this level of the fractals, I will need to grind for my gear and level in order to get there. You may not agree with that interpretation, but you must admit that it is a possible one, just as yours is. Perhaps for others, outfitting their character with various new shiny skins is also “the fun stuff”.
Another thing I’d like to point out is that you assume these bits and pieces of talking points all were originally intended to come together in a paragraph, but you can only assume this. How do we not know that this dialogue actually reads like this?:
“When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’
In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”
Sighs. I edit for a living. If you’re going to argue English with me, you’re going to lose. Really.
The term grind is mentioned in what you have to consider the same paragraph. The bit about art would arguably be a different paragraph, but the grind, same paragraph for sure. Even you put it there.
So, they’re defining grind EARLY in the paragraph, so use of the word grind later in the paragraph remains as defined. Simple, clear, English. No one who speaks English well would bother to deny it. If you don’t want to see it, it can only be because you have an agenda.
Likewise the closing of the paragraph (all said in one breath) denies that this is about gear grind.
Anyone who knows the language should agree that taking a single sentence from the middle of a paragraph can change the definition of a sentence. I’m not sure how anyone can deny the interpretation I put on this without being either completely disingenuous, or not even bothering to listen to/look at the facts.
well, my topic wasnt finished- got mixed up with the tabs and accidentally sent rather than add another paragraph, which is why I deleted right away, but apparently you pressed refresh faster than I the delete button.
assume it reads like this:
“When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’
In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great.
We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”
Also, you don’t know me, nor what I do. Perhaps I’m also a “professional editor”. I hardly see how that validates your arguments any more.
well, my topic wasnt finished- got mixed up with the tabs and accidentally sent rather than add another paragraph, which is why I deleted right away, but apparently you pressed refresh faster than I the delete button.
assume it reads like this:
“When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’
In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great.
We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”Also, you don’t know me, nor what I do. Perhaps I’m also a “professional editor”. I hardly see how that validates your arguments any more.
It’s the use of the word grind earlier in the piece, defining the word grind used later in the piece. When you define a word in a document, even if NOT in the same paragraph (and I feel it is anyway), you’ve defined the word. Colin defined the word, then reused the word a line or two later.
There are only two sentences between the two uses of the word grind. It’s illogical to assume that it would suddenly change definition.
Again, you are making assumptions. There is no official “definition” of grind at all. I think most people would agree that the definition of the word “grind” is more complex than simply “I swung a sword. I swung a sword again”, or are you referring to the sentence before? If that’s the case, why would you use the word “grind” in a sentence to describe itself? You also haven’t replied to how other people may interpret “fun stuff”.
You’re still stuck on the idea that this is a written document, when it is most likely (and sounds like if listened to) a collection of sound bites being pieced together, with, IMO, the intent to convince it’s viewers in general that Anet doesn’t want its “players to grind” because they realize that “no one enjoys that” and “no one finds it fun”. If you limit this to include only the leveling experience, that’s your interpretation. I and many others have further interpretations however.
I’ve gotten my opinion across, so I’ll leave it at that. Do what you want with it. Honestly, the manifesto doesn’t matter much to me anyway. I care much more about the state of the game now and the direction it has been going. I’m not very happy about what I see for many of the reasons people have pointed out here. I do have hope though.
Again, you are making assumptions. There is no official “definition” of grind at all. I think most people would agree that the definition of the word “grind” is more complex than simply “I swung a sword. I swung a sword again”, or are you referring to the sentence before? If that’s the case, why would you use the word “grind” in a sentence to describe itself? You also haven’t replied to how other people may interpret “fun stuff”.
You’re still stuck on the idea that this is a written document, when it is most likely (and sounds like if listened to) a collection of sound bites being pieced together, with, IMO, the intent to convince it’s viewers in general that Anet doesn’t want its “players to grind” because they realize that “no one enjoys that” and “no one finds it fun”. If you limit this to include only the leveling experience, that’s your interpretation. I and many others have further interpretations however.
I’ve gotten my opinion across, so I’ll leave it at that. Do what you want with it. Honestly, the manifesto doesn’t matter much to me anyway. I care much more about the state of the game now and the direction it has been going. I’m not very happy about what I see for many of the reasons people have pointed out here. I do have hope though.
Actually I’m not making ANY assumptions. When a word like grind is used in a piece and is defined by the context of the piece, that becomes the definition of the word in the piece. It really is that simple.
If I write a paper (and I’ve published many), it doesn’t matter what the dictionary definition of a word is, as long as I’ve defined the word in the piece by usage, which is what was done here.
You’re arguing to try to prove that a sentence taken alone is more important than a sentence taken in context. The first usage of the word defines how Colin is using it.
Why would ANYONE assume that the second usage a line or two later has changed definition?
The onus would be on you to prove that word has changed definition and given the words here, you simply can’t do it.
Actually I’m not making ANY assumptions. When a word like grind is used in a piece and is defined by the context of the piece, that becomes the definition of the word in the piece. It really is that simple.
Really? Here is a piece in which I use the word grind with different meanings:
So, I take the fifth exit, just like every other night, when the car suddenly stops. Just grinds to a halt you know? Its raining, so hard that the wipers barely let me see through the deluge. I see blurred neon over on the other side of the street, got to be a strip club, nothing else it could be in this part of town. Perhaps they’ll have a phone? I button my coat up tight around my neck and get out of the car. Man, what a grind.
I enter the club and ask to use the phone. I am told, bluntly, there are no phones for customers and do I want a drink or do I want to get lost? I order a whisky. Five minutes later, a cute blonde is sitting on my lap, I feel her grind against me……
Got bored, it was so generic. But etc etc …..
Actually I’m not making ANY assumptions. When a word like grind is used in a piece and is defined by the context of the piece, that becomes the definition of the word in the piece. It really is that simple.
Really? Here is a piece in which I use the word grind with different meanings:
So, I take the fifth exit, just like every other night, when the car suddenly stops. Just grinds to a halt you know? Its raining, so hard that the wipers barely let me see through the deluge. I see blurred neon over on the other side of the street, got to be a strip club, nothing else it could be in this part of town. Perhaps they’ll have a phone? I button my coat up tight around my neck and get out of the car. Man, what a grind.
I enter the club and ask to use the phone. I am told, bluntly, there are no phones for customers and do I want a drink or do I want to get lost? I order a whisky. Five minutes later, a cute blonde is sitting on my lap, I feel her grind against me……
Got bored, it was so generic. But etc etc …..
As I’ve already stated, once a word is defined in a specific document, ANY document, it takes on that meaning in that document. Basic, basic English.
Particularly a word like grind. Colin defined the word how HE was using it and then went on to say AFTER that that “we don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2”.
If he had a different definition why would he have defined it in the first place? Why would he change the definition.
It is COMPELTELY, 100% IRRELEVANT as to what it might or might not mean, once someone has taken the time to define it in a specific piece.
You can agree or disagree with the definition but you have to apply the definition that was given. If you don’t, you’re still taking the words out of context.
(edited by Moderator)
Actually I’m not making ANY assumptions. When a word like grind is used in a piece and is defined by the context of the piece, that becomes the definition of the word in the piece. It really is that simple.
Really? Here is a piece in which I use the word grind with different meanings:
So, I take the fifth exit, just like every other night, when the car suddenly stops. Just grinds to a halt you know? Its raining, so hard that the wipers barely let me see through the deluge. I see blurred neon over on the other side of the street, got to be a strip club, nothing else it could be in this part of town. Perhaps they’ll have a phone? I button my coat up tight around my neck and get out of the car. Man, what a grind.
I enter the club and ask to use the phone. I am told, bluntly, there are no phones for customers and do I want a drink or do I want to get lost? I order a whisky. Five minutes later, a cute blonde is sitting on my lap, I feel her grind against me……
Got bored, it was so generic. But etc etc …..
You really need to learn to read. As I’ve already stated, once a word is defined in a specific document, ANY document, it takes on that meaning in that document. Basic, basic English.
Particularly a word like grind. Colin defined the word how HE was using it and then went on to say AFTER that that “we don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2”.
If he had a different definition why would he have defined it in the first place? Why would he change the definition.
It is COMPELTELY, 100% IRRELEVANT as to what it might or might not mean, once someone has taken the time to define it in a specific piece.
You can agree or disagree with the definition but you have to apply the definition that was given. If you don’t, you’re still taking the words out of context.
You are stating your opinion as fact. Go to the back of the class.
Actually I’m not making ANY assumptions. When a word like grind is used in a piece and is defined by the context of the piece, that becomes the definition of the word in the piece. It really is that simple.
Really? Here is a piece in which I use the word grind with different meanings:
So, I take the fifth exit, just like every other night, when the car suddenly stops. Just grinds to a halt you know? Its raining, so hard that the wipers barely let me see through the deluge. I see blurred neon over on the other side of the street, got to be a strip club, nothing else it could be in this part of town. Perhaps they’ll have a phone? I button my coat up tight around my neck and get out of the car. Man, what a grind.
I enter the club and ask to use the phone. I am told, bluntly, there are no phones for customers and do I want a drink or do I want to get lost? I order a whisky. Five minutes later, a cute blonde is sitting on my lap, I feel her grind against me……
Got bored, it was so generic. But etc etc …..
You really need to learn to read. As I’ve already stated, once a word is defined in a specific document, ANY document, it takes on that meaning in that document. Basic, basic English.
Particularly a word like grind. Colin defined the word how HE was using it and then went on to say AFTER that that “we don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2”.
If he had a different definition why would he have defined it in the first place? Why would he change the definition.
It is COMPELTELY, 100% IRRELEVANT as to what it might or might not mean, once someone has taken the time to define it in a specific piece.
You can agree or disagree with the definition but you have to apply the definition that was given. If you don’t, you’re still taking the words out of context.
You are stating your opinion as fact. Go to the back of the class.
This isn’t an opinion. It’s a fact that the term was defined. 100% fact. Are you saying it’s an opinion it was defined in the piece?
No. I’m saying it was your opinion that it was defined in the piece. Nowhere in the piece does it state,“here is my definition of grind, anything I say beyond this point must be taken in the same way”. And in fact, even if you take it the way that Colin allegedly meant it, he’s still wrong…because the combat is spectacularly “hit-one-button”.
Case in point, someone hearing Colin saying “We don’t want players to grind” and making up all kinds of excuses as to why no, it doesn’t mean that ArenaNet does not want players to grind. Denial must be a great thing.
Context is important. It is pretty clear if you actually take into account everything Colin said in that segment it is obvious that he was talking about grinding to unlock content, like gear gating or raid progression. And when was the last time you needed to grind to reach new content in Guild Wars 2?
I’ve been through one of the paths in Twilight Arbor three times now and still don’t have enough dungeon tokens or whatever they are to get ONE lousy stinking piece of Twilight Arbor armor. Armor, to me, is content – see also: fun stuff – that I can only get to in this game if I repeat a particular activity repeatedly (see also: grind).
@Vayne.8563: what truly baffles me is that you broke the sentence:
In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘
and only used half of it in order to show that their meaning is grind to unlock areas. while the second part
I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great.
We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”
clearly show that Anet is referring grind as a mindlessly killing the same enemies over and over again. something introduced by the latest dailies (kill 50 ascelonians, kill 25 underwater).
I prefer a gear gating that would take me to harder and harder areas, one that getting the new gear would take the small effort of running other dungeons or buying (took me few days to reach end game gear in other game) then mindlessly killing enemies as time gating.
you can use my grammar as a way to show that i truly don’t understand as a wonderful spin.
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