Guild Wars 2

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Thaddeus.4891:

Vayne you are right, but the Elite Spec are pretty close to pay to win if you ask me.

Okay I’ve said this many times and not a single person has been able to answer me.

Can you name ANY MMORPG, any at all, that isn’t pay to win if you count expansions. I ask this because I can’t. P2W was always mean to refer to cash shops, not expansions.

Take WoW as an example. WoW raises the level cap with every expansion. That is you become far more powerful each time an expansion comes out, including in PvP. This has been true in every MMO I’ve played.

Expansions are sold and people are expected to buy them to continue to playing the game, even in a subscription game.

Now in Guild Wars 2, there’s less P2W than any other MMO because they didn’t raise the level cap and you can still compete with some builds in PvP.

P2W was meant to denote games that sold power in the cash shop that you couldn’t get in game. It never covered an expansion to my knowledge.

If it did, even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win.

Actually you have been answered in the past when you made this point. It was also pointed out that the same wiki that you have used to support your definition of other MMO terms disagrees with your limited definition of pay to win.

WoW’s expansions add character levels. A character who advances in power level via an expansion in WoW is moving on to higher level content, perhaps including a higher PvP tier where characters at the old power cap are not expected to compete.

In GW2 buying and taking advantage of the supposed (Ihave not seen analysis that demonstrates that the elite specs are objectively more powerful so I say, “supposed.”) Power increase via the expansion remain at the same character level as, in direct competition with, those who do not. WoW attempts to seperate the old power level from the new while GW2 expects old, underpoered, chaacters to compete with the new power cap.

I am not claiming that HoT is pay to win because I dont know for a fact that the elite specs are more powerful. But, if they are, the expansion becomes something for which one pays real money for an advantage over those, with whom one is in direct competition, who do not.

And I’ve answered that. Since WoW does have PvP servers, if you happen to be on a PvP server, you are facing people who are higher level than you with no chance at all to beat them in open world PvP. Open World PvP is maps devoted to PvP that all levels can enter and fight on. Therefore WoW is pay to win.

The only way you can prove it’s not is if you can tell me that people that are level 80 can’t fight peopel that are level 70 that don’t have the expansion. But you can’t tell me that, because it’s not true. On a PvP server higher level players can beat up on lower level players, even if they haven’t bought the expansion. That’s the definition of pay to win you’re using, so if you’re using WoW you’re factually wrong.

There are other advantages people get, ev3en brought up in this very thread, a few posts above this one. You can go into higher zones, come back and PvP on your level 70 character that’s twinked out with better gear from having the expansion, again pay to win.

Saying people have answered it only works if the answers actually fits. Saying you’ve answered it and ignoring the places where WOW is pay to win (by this definition which I don’t agree with anyway) is pointless.

What about non PvP servers?

You can still PvP in the open world on PvE servers in Wow. It just doesn’t happen as often, and you have to get lucky or creative to create fights. Well, unless they’ve patched that out in the last 6 years.

emma.5967:

Myralien.6754:

It doesn’t “stop” at 100, but you need to craft much better infusions to be competitive, so.. still not p2w

sure … it’s possible to get at 130 AR with 3 of these:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/20_Agony_Infusion

…. but I don’t have 25k Gold, do you?

With the same effort you’re getting with HoT to 150 AR you’re getting without HoT to 100AR. With the expansion you’re missing out on 50AR and that’s gamebreaking at Fractals 90 and above. Because you’re getting agony for staying in the near of your allies. And when you’re missing out on 50AR … you’re dead.

Okay, but please tell me how much people do 78+ levels in fractal?
Oh and do you gain something more doing these levels? Do you gain more stats? More powerful weapons? No. These levels are currently useless anyway, it’s just here for the challenge and a 100% chance fractal gold weapon, but it’s just a skin and ugly imo.

Oh and please, tell me where I can find a good MMO where you HAVE TO pay the expansion to be a “winner” as you said?

HoT is an EXPANSION. Do you really know what it is?
-Seriously? An expansion with additionnals/advantages contents than a base game? OMG? Is it true? /sarcasm

Oh and a Elite spec that are better than a simple job and a base spec. Do you know what Elite means? Simple : open a dictionnary.

But well, people loves to complain for everything.

Tou have the right to complain about it but please do it well with better arguments, this is just pointless. You can say you don’t like it but of course you can’t be better without the expansion, it’s obvious.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Thaddeus.4891:

Vayne you are right, but the Elite Spec are pretty close to pay to win if you ask me.

Okay I’ve said this many times and not a single person has been able to answer me.

Can you name ANY MMORPG, any at all, that isn’t pay to win if you count expansions. I ask this because I can’t. P2W was always mean to refer to cash shops, not expansions.

Take WoW as an example. WoW raises the level cap with every expansion. That is you become far more powerful each time an expansion comes out, including in PvP. This has been true in every MMO I’ve played.

Expansions are sold and people are expected to buy them to continue to playing the game, even in a subscription game.

Now in Guild Wars 2, there’s less P2W than any other MMO because they didn’t raise the level cap and you can still compete with some builds in PvP.

P2W was meant to denote games that sold power in the cash shop that you couldn’t get in game. It never covered an expansion to my knowledge.

If it did, even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win.

Actually you have been answered in the past when you made this point. It was also pointed out that the same wiki that you have used to support your definition of other MMO terms disagrees with your limited definition of pay to win.

WoW’s expansions add character levels. A character who advances in power level via an expansion in WoW is moving on to higher level content, perhaps including a higher PvP tier where characters at the old power cap are not expected to compete.

In GW2 buying and taking advantage of the supposed (Ihave not seen analysis that demonstrates that the elite specs are objectively more powerful so I say, “supposed.”) Power increase via the expansion remain at the same character level as, in direct competition with, those who do not. WoW attempts to seperate the old power level from the new while GW2 expects old, underpoered, chaacters to compete with the new power cap.

I am not claiming that HoT is pay to win because I dont know for a fact that the elite specs are more powerful. But, if they are, the expansion becomes something for which one pays real money for an advantage over those, with whom one is in direct competition, who do not.

And I’ve answered that. Since WoW does have PvP servers, if you happen to be on a PvP server, you are facing people who are higher level than you with no chance at all to beat them in open world PvP. Open World PvP is maps devoted to PvP that all levels can enter and fight on. Therefore WoW is pay to win.

The only way you can prove it’s not is if you can tell me that people that are level 80 can’t fight peopel that are level 70 that don’t have the expansion. But you can’t tell me that, because it’s not true. On a PvP server higher level players can beat up on lower level players, even if they haven’t bought the expansion. That’s the definition of pay to win you’re using, so if you’re using WoW you’re factually wrong.

There are other advantages people get, ev3en brought up in this very thread, a few posts above this one. You can go into higher zones, come back and PvP on your level 70 character that’s twinked out with better gear from having the expansion, again pay to win.

Saying people have answered it only works if the answers actually fits. Saying you’ve answered it and ignoring the places where WOW is pay to win (by this definition which I don’t agree with anyway) is pointless.

What about non PvP servers?

But you can’t really take PvP servers out. Games were never pay to win in the non-competitive aspect, because you can’t win something that’s not competitive. No one every really said a game was pay to win, unless there were really hard raids and you needed to buy stuff from the cash shop to get through them. Again raids are considered competitive content. P2W almost never talks about PvE, because PvE isn’t really competitive on most games. That leaves PvP.

Now, on a PvE server, where you’re not PvPing, it’s hardly relevevant whether you have the power, unless you’re talking about the most competitive content. In Guild Wars 2, the most competitive content is raids. But you can’t raid unless you get the expansion so it sort of equals itself out.

But for PvP, that’s the thing. A game is generally considered pay to win if you get advantage over other players in PvP through CASH SHOP purchases. That’s ALWAYS been the definition.

On a PvE server, if you NEVER enter a PVP arena, WOW is not Pay to WIn and NEITHER is Guild Wars 2. Because on the PvE server, which is pretty much the entire open world, there’s no pay to win. Are you suggesting people can’t beat events in Orr or Southsun or the Silverwastes if they don’t buy HOT? That they need those elite specs to do that content?

So if you compare the open world in WOW to the open world in Guild Wars 2, Guild Wars 2 is not pay to win but WoW is because some of the servers DO have open world PvP. You’d compare that, mostly to WvW.

Do the elite specs give you some advantage in WvW. Sure, I guess they probably do. Does having a higher level give you some advantage in WoW in open world PvP? Sure it does. Far more advantage than WvW.

And to be clear, you can also get advantage in those PvP arenas capped at lower levels if you have an expansion in WoW, according to someone in this thread. There’s apparently some way to get gear that makes your level whatever stronger than it would be if you didn’t have the expansion, so yes, WoW would be considered pay to win if you include expansions, just like every other MMO I’ve ever played.

The short answer is, I’ve never ever played an MMO where buying the expansion didn’t give you an advantage in Power. In WoW you could often go back with better/newer gear and solo older dungeons, far more easily than you can here. Because gear means so much more in WoW. It’s far less dependent on player skill, and more dependent on gear numbers.

There really isn’t even a question to answer here. You get far more power and advantage from a WoW expansion that you do from Heart of Thorns.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Thaddeus.4891:

Vayne you are right, but the Elite Spec are pretty close to pay to win if you ask me.

Okay I’ve said this many times and not a single person has been able to answer me.

Can you name ANY MMORPG, any at all, that isn’t pay to win if you count expansions. I ask this because I can’t. P2W was always mean to refer to cash shops, not expansions.

Take WoW as an example. WoW raises the level cap with every expansion. That is you become far more powerful each time an expansion comes out, including in PvP. This has been true in every MMO I’ve played.

Expansions are sold and people are expected to buy them to continue to playing the game, even in a subscription game.

Now in Guild Wars 2, there’s less P2W than any other MMO because they didn’t raise the level cap and you can still compete with some builds in PvP.

P2W was meant to denote games that sold power in the cash shop that you couldn’t get in game. It never covered an expansion to my knowledge.

If it did, even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win.

Actually you have been answered in the past when you made this point. It was also pointed out that the same wiki that you have used to support your definition of other MMO terms disagrees with your limited definition of pay to win.

WoW’s expansions add character levels. A character who advances in power level via an expansion in WoW is moving on to higher level content, perhaps including a higher PvP tier where characters at the old power cap are not expected to compete.

In GW2 buying and taking advantage of the supposed (Ihave not seen analysis that demonstrates that the elite specs are objectively more powerful so I say, “supposed.”) Power increase via the expansion remain at the same character level as, in direct competition with, those who do not. WoW attempts to seperate the old power level from the new while GW2 expects old, underpoered, chaacters to compete with the new power cap.

I am not claiming that HoT is pay to win because I dont know for a fact that the elite specs are more powerful. But, if they are, the expansion becomes something for which one pays real money for an advantage over those, with whom one is in direct competition, who do not.

And I’ve answered that. Since WoW does have PvP servers, if you happen to be on a PvP server, you are facing people who are higher level than you with no chance at all to beat them in open world PvP. Open World PvP is maps devoted to PvP that all levels can enter and fight on. Therefore WoW is pay to win.

The only way you can prove it’s not is if you can tell me that people that are level 80 can’t fight peopel that are level 70 that don’t have the expansion. But you can’t tell me that, because it’s not true. On a PvP server higher level players can beat up on lower level players, even if they haven’t bought the expansion. That’s the definition of pay to win you’re using, so if you’re using WoW you’re factually wrong.

There are other advantages people get, ev3en brought up in this very thread, a few posts above this one. You can go into higher zones, come back and PvP on your level 70 character that’s twinked out with better gear from having the expansion, again pay to win.

Saying people have answered it only works if the answers actually fits. Saying you’ve answered it and ignoring the places where WOW is pay to win (by this definition which I don’t agree with anyway) is pointless.

What about non PvP servers?

You can still PvP in the open world on PvE servers in Wow. It just doesn’t happen as often, and you have to get lucky or creative to create fights. Well, unless they’ve patched that out in the last 6 years.

I’d forgotten all about this. I remember being a newbie and WoW and getting slaughtered by higher level players in a PvE server. I had no idea what was going on. But you can flag yourself off on as a PvE player.

In know in Rift, I used to get pulled into PvP even on PvE servers accidentally. Hellling someone that was flagged for PvP would put you in PvP flagged mode and if you didn’t have better gear you were toast.

If you think that $50 is barely anything, I envy your life. For alot of people in the world, that’s all they have left at the end of a paycheck, -if that-.

And it has yet to go on sell officially despite it being half a year in. By the time they finally do put HoT on sale, it’ll be time for the next expo and they’ll be giving it away for free as part of that expo just like they did with the core game with HoT.

The PvP situation is identical to what happened with guilds: Adding required content in something that is supposed to be an optional purchase.

so what im gathering in this thread is people want the devs to give yourewards even if you dont pay them at all. seems legit.

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Thaddeus.4891:

Vayne you are right, but the Elite Spec are pretty close to pay to win if you ask me.

Okay I’ve said this many times and not a single person has been able to answer me.

Can you name ANY MMORPG, any at all, that isn’t pay to win if you count expansions. I ask this because I can’t. P2W was always mean to refer to cash shops, not expansions.

Take WoW as an example. WoW raises the level cap with every expansion. That is you become far more powerful each time an expansion comes out, including in PvP. This has been true in every MMO I’ve played.

Expansions are sold and people are expected to buy them to continue to playing the game, even in a subscription game.

Now in Guild Wars 2, there’s less P2W than any other MMO because they didn’t raise the level cap and you can still compete with some builds in PvP.

P2W was meant to denote games that sold power in the cash shop that you couldn’t get in game. It never covered an expansion to my knowledge.

If it did, even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win.

Actually you have been answered in the past when you made this point. It was also pointed out that the same wiki that you have used to support your definition of other MMO terms disagrees with your limited definition of pay to win.

WoW’s expansions add character levels. A character who advances in power level via an expansion in WoW is moving on to higher level content, perhaps including a higher PvP tier where characters at the old power cap are not expected to compete.

In GW2 buying and taking advantage of the supposed (Ihave not seen analysis that demonstrates that the elite specs are objectively more powerful so I say, “supposed.”) Power increase via the expansion remain at the same character level as, in direct competition with, those who do not. WoW attempts to seperate the old power level from the new while GW2 expects old, underpoered, chaacters to compete with the new power cap.

I am not claiming that HoT is pay to win because I dont know for a fact that the elite specs are more powerful. But, if they are, the expansion becomes something for which one pays real money for an advantage over those, with whom one is in direct competition, who do not.

And I’ve answered that. Since WoW does have PvP servers, if you happen to be on a PvP server, you are facing people who are higher level than you with no chance at all to beat them in open world PvP. Open World PvP is maps devoted to PvP that all levels can enter and fight on. Therefore WoW is pay to win.

The only way you can prove it’s not is if you can tell me that people that are level 80 can’t fight peopel that are level 70 that don’t have the expansion. But you can’t tell me that, because it’s not true. On a PvP server higher level players can beat up on lower level players, even if they haven’t bought the expansion. That’s the definition of pay to win you’re using, so if you’re using WoW you’re factually wrong.

There are other advantages people get, ev3en brought up in this very thread, a few posts above this one. You can go into higher zones, come back and PvP on your level 70 character that’s twinked out with better gear from having the expansion, again pay to win.

Saying people have answered it only works if the answers actually fits. Saying you’ve answered it and ignoring the places where WOW is pay to win (by this definition which I don’t agree with anyway) is pointless.

What about non PvP servers?

You can still PvP in the open world on PvE servers in Wow. It just doesn’t happen as often, and you have to get lucky or creative to create fights. Well, unless they’ve patched that out in the last 6 years.

I’d forgotten all about this. I remember being a newbie and WoW and getting slaughtered by higher level players in a PvE server. I had no idea what was going on. But you can flag yourself off on as a PvE player.

In know in Rift, I used to get pulled into PvP even on PvE servers accidentally. Hellling someone that was flagged for PvP would put you in PvP flagged mode and if you didn’t have better gear you were toast.

Yep. When I played WoW, people would hang around quest areas where PvE players were likely to tag a guard, which flagged them for PvP whether they wanted to or not, or flag themselves for PvP and run into an AoE dropped by someone careless, which also flagged the victim. In Rift, I remember getting flagged as a Chloromancer because some of my attacks healed a flagged friendly.

Hannelore.8153:

If you think that $50 is barely anything, I envy your life. For alot of people in the world, that’s all they have left at the end of a paycheck, -if that-.

And it has yet to go on sell officially despite it being half a year in. By the time they finally do put HoT on sale, it’ll be time for the next expo and they’ll be giving it away for free as part of that expo just like they did with the core game with HoT.

The PvP situation is identical to what happened with guilds: Adding required content in something that is supposed to be an optional purchase.

Except that it’s already been on sale at authorized dealers for $35 for at least a couple of months now.

I don’t see any P2W in this game. You just get more tools at your hand, but well, it’s like the VIP zones in clubs. Just pay a little and also enjoy it. It’s not like this is only for millionaires.

Back in the days, we all bought games. Or coppied the floppies..Looks at 6 floppies with DooM 2 as a ARJ archive But in general it’s “pay and get the service”. Now, they get 90% free service and complain that they don’t get the last 10%.