Why we can`t use DPS meter?

Why we can`t use DPS meter?

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Posted by: Shadelang.3012

Shadelang.3012

@ Zui. YES I already stated that being at ranged WILL protect you from many boss mechanics. Ive ALSO stated the MANY drawbacks to a full ranged group. You can keep posting all day long how many mechanics 5 range groups avoid. That does NOTHING to deny that ranged dpsers CANNOT maintaint here strike zones except in specific circumstances. One of which is a boss that is being held completely still and facing in specific directions…next to other targets….in certain proximity to and away from..etc..etc…etc..etc..

There are only 3 weapons with such specific strike zones. Unless im forgetting one. They are mesmer greatsword, ranger longbow and ranger shortbow. Both mes gs and ranger lb are pretty easy to maintain max dps. The only times that would be hard is if they had aggro. But thats unlikely if they are staying at max range to begin with. Besides its only the auto attacks which are effected. And the auto attacks of those weapons arent exactly the best source of damage on those weapons.

Ranger longbow. Ranger Shortbow. And Mesmer greatsword are the only ones with OBVIOUS strike zones. Each other ranged DPS primary weapon has other requirments.

A rangers Axe MH must have a target to bounce off of to achieve optimal dps. A warrior rifle MUST be able to channel killshot requiring the target to be and stay in range as well as the warrior being unmoving and undodging. This is risky. Mesmer weapons often rely on phantasms. These can and often are very quickly killed by boss cleave. Even the stray attacks the closer ranged are kiting will take them out. Not to mention stray aoes strewn across the battlefield. Engi rifle and grenades require close proximity. Necro axe has a very short range for a ranged weapon. Necro staff is a control weapon far more than it is a dps weapon. Nearly all weapon ahve similar situational requirements. My use of the term strike zone is more fluid than a set zone to attack. But more a zone of prerequisites that MUST be met.

Ghost Yak

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Posted by: Dave.2536

Dave.2536

As I said earlier in the thread. The Pros of melee stacking far outweigh the cons…easily so in fact.

Even on the Fractal bosses Zui listed?

Mossman, Archdiviner, and Legendary Imbued Grawl Shaman in particular? If so, why aren’t more people meleeing these bosses then?

Content in this game will always seem
to be faceroll at the high levels, because it
needs to be accessible to the casuals and bads.

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Posted by: Wethospu.6437

Wethospu.6437

I’m pretty sure melee weapons have much smaller strike zone than ranged weapons.

I’d say Wethospu’s estimates were pretty accurate. I was going to do this for every dungeon boss too, but I imagine I’d find a similar pattern, and honestly this took way more time than I anticipated it would.

That’s why I like estimating.

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Posted by: Shadelang.3012

Shadelang.3012

The ONLY time ranged is prefered in this game by the majority of players is in fact during “glitch” spot encounters.

Dredge Powersuit? Rampaging Ice Elemental? Both Archdiviner fights? Jade Maw (tentacles)?

To even suggest that the first two can be meleed in a PUG group will either get people to suggest that you’re an idiot, that melee isn’t a thing for those bosses, immediately kicked from the group, or a group that tries it, wipes almost immediately, and concludes it melee is virtually impossible to pull off.

Oh, and note how none of them have any “glitch” spots.

Zui you are speaking of fractal bosses. Something I have already said before I hold seperate from dungeons. As many fractal’s are designed to be just as punishing to melee as they are to ranged. Some (specifically the ones you mentioned) are designed to be VERY punishing to zerker melees. However as for jade maw. I still see far more melee people hitting those tentacles than I do ranged. As there attacks are slow and easily avoidable. So I wouldnt even count them as a significant risk. Ill also remind you that hte jade elementals are IMMUNE TO ANY AND ALL FORM OF RANGED ATTACKS WHATSOEVER. Meaning that ranged playstyles SIMPLY CANNOT COMPLETE THAT FIGHT without using melee.

Ghost Yak

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Posted by: Dave.2536

Dave.2536

Ill also remind you that hte jade elementals are IMMUNE TO ANY AND ALL FORM OF RANGED ATTACKS WHATSOEVER. Meaning that ranged playstyles SIMPLY CANNOT COMPLETE THAT FIGHT without using melee.

Nope. Only projectiles.

Content in this game will always seem
to be faceroll at the high levels, because it
needs to be accessible to the casuals and bads.

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Posted by: Shadelang.3012

Shadelang.3012

Ill also remind you that hte jade elementals are IMMUNE TO ANY AND ALL FORM OF RANGED ATTACKS WHATSOEVER. Meaning that ranged playstyles SIMPLY CANNOT COMPLETE THAT FIGHT without using melee.

Nope. Only projectiles.

“Nope. Only Projectiles” I fealt I had to quote this again it made me laugh pretty hard. Welp that leaves me ONE attack on my longbow. zero attacks on the shortbow and axe.

The marks on necro staff but those aren’t exactly gonna kill all that quickly now are they?

wow man. comeon.

Ghost Yak

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Posted by: ProtoGunner.4953

ProtoGunner.4953

Kill speed is very relevant to the discussion as it is the only thing valued in the dungeon community today. Slowing down the dungeon run WILL get you kicked today in many groups. As a ranged player this happens to me quite often even in situations where im actively helping my group at every turn. As the ranged player is easiest person to target for a slow kill time.

That’s not true. I recently ran some pug dungeons and I was in groups with horrible overall DPS and no one got kicked. Still most players just run whatever they want.

But overall, the experience wasn’t that bad. About 70% of the groups I pugged in AC, CM and CoF were rather speed clearers (though no focus on specific group composition) and it was a quite good experience.

‘would have/would’ve been’ —> correct
‘would of been’ —> wrong

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Posted by: Zui.9245

Zui.9245

Shadelang, no one here is denying that regardless of what you mean by strike zone (Mesmer GS auto attack damage zone, or say Guardian Scepter #2 on stationary targets, whatever), ranged groups are trading DPS for safety. That’s entirely the point. It seems like you’re just emphasizing the point (as what you’re saying is that compared to a situation where the boss is stationary with respect to the ranged player, the ranged player will get a bit less DPS when the boss is moving) while somehow trying to disagree with it.

Of course ranged groups are going to be behind in DPS compared to melee groups, providing the melee groups are actually alive and actively doing DPS to the boss. This is specifically the tradeoff being made by the group. Ranged groups do their DPS much more safely, because they don’t need to engage with anywhere near the amount of mechanics, and generally, when they do have to engage with mechanics it’s often just one or two people in the party at a time who need to engage with them, while everyone else is pretty safe (whereas in a full melee group, everyone is in equal danger).

When people die in melee groups, you also have a proportional DPS loss. People in melee groups, controlling for level of skill and experience, are much more likely to die because they have to engage with the mechanics to a much greater degree. If you take a struggling ranged group and make them melee, they’ll just die very fast. If you take a successful melee group and make them range, they’ll still successfully kill the boss, they’ll just take a lot longer. If you take a nearly successful melee group and make them range, they’re almost certainly going to successfully kill the boss too, just in a longer amount of time.

Range is slower, but it’s also easier. It’s easier for good groups, and it’s easier for bad groups. The reason that the better a group is, the more likely they are to melee, is because if you still have a high probability of success when meleeing and you’re going to save a lot of time, of course you’re going to want to save a lot of time (on average) and melee. Plus, when you’re able to successfully engage with the mechanics, you’re likely to find doing so fun, and thus find playstyles that both speed things up (getting you to the reward faster, which is fun) AND let you engage with the mechanics (also increasing the fun level) to be preferable to ones that slow things down and are comparatively boring.

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Posted by: Shadelang.3012

Shadelang.3012

Kill speed is very relevant to the discussion as it is the only thing valued in the dungeon community today. Slowing down the dungeon run WILL get you kicked today in many groups. As a ranged player this happens to me quite often even in situations where im actively helping my group at every turn. As the ranged player is easiest person to target for a slow kill time.

That’s not true. I recently ran some pug dungeons and I was in groups with horrible overall DPS and no one got kicked. Still most players just run whatever they want.

But overall, the experience wasn’t that bad. About 70% of the groups I pugged in AC, CM and CoF were rather speed clearers (though no focus on specific group composition) and it was a quite good experience.

Hey. I gotta say your right. Many people are tolerant. It still doesnt change that ranged players are more likely to be blamed for mishaps than melees. When I first started my guardian I died quite often. Using a new class took some getting used to and I often avoided stacking becuase I simply wasn’t used to being that close to another person. I didn’t understand at the time how much easier it was to play with 4 other melees right next to you ready to pick me up if I died. I never once got kicked.

On my ranger however I range the molten twins. The reason for this is im quite used to pugs dieing there. I often have a 70% success rate in soloing the rest of hte zerkers health down..rezzing my team mates and salvaging the fight. In almost every one of hte remaining 30% though. Im often kicked from the group and blamed as being hte cause of the wipe due to my (pitiful dps they had to carry) despite being the last one alive.

Ghost Yak

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Posted by: Shadelang.3012

Shadelang.3012

Shadelang, no one here is denying that regardless of what you mean by strike zone (Mesmer GS auto attack damage zone, or say Guardian Scepter #2 on stationary targets, whatever), ranged groups are trading DPS for safety. That’s entirely the point. It seems like you’re just emphasizing the point (as what you’re saying is that compared to a situation where the boss is stationary with respect to the ranged player, the ranged player will get a bit less DPS when the boss is moving) while somehow trying to disagree with it.

Of course ranged groups are going to be behind in DPS compared to melee groups, providing the melee groups are actually alive and actively doing DPS to the boss. This is specifically the tradeoff being made by the group. Ranged groups do their DPS much more safely, because they don’t need to engage with anywhere near the amount of mechanics, and generally, when they do have to engage with mechanics it’s often just one or two people in the party at a time who need to engage with them, while everyone else is pretty safe (whereas in a full melee group, everyone is in equal danger).

When people die in melee groups, you also have a proportional DPS loss. People in melee groups, controlling for level of skill and experience, are much more likely to die because they have to engage with the mechanics to a much greater degree. If you take a struggling ranged group and make them melee, they’ll just die very fast. If you take a successful melee group and make them range, they’ll still successfully kill the boss, they’ll just take a lot longer. If you take a nearly successful melee group and make them range, they’re almost certainly going to successfully kill the boss too, just in a longer amount of time.

Range is slower, but it’s also easier. It’s easier for good groups, and it’s easier for bad groups. The reason that the better a group is, the more likely they are to melee, is because if you still have a high probability of success when meleeing and you’re going to save a lot of time, of course you’re going to want to save a lot of time (on average) and melee. Plus, when you’re able to successfully engage with the mechanics, you’re likely to find doing so fun, and thus find playstyles that both speed things up (getting you to the reward faster, which is fun) AND let you engage with the mechanics (also increasing the fun level) to be preferable to ones that slow things down and are comparatively boring.

ZUI I am completely okay with ranged groups being behind melee groups dps. ALL I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DO for hte last few hours is attempt to show how that happens. I was also refuting a rather ignorant statement that ranged dps is inherently safer. Its safer yes but at a cost that compensates for that safety. All I did for the last few hours was explain the COST the ranged dpsers play for that. So that atleast some people would understand that its not exactly great for the ranged playstyle either.

I was also explaining that not every situation is gonna be safer for the ranged. As there are severe drawbacks to being a ranged dpser as well.

Edit: The TL;DR for everything ive posted so far. Ranged dpsers have lower dps to COMPENSATE for the safety involved. Taking that safety away in the long run. Longer fights means more things happen. More things happen means higher chance of something BAD happening. And when a ranged person dies. Usually no one revives them in time. Combine that with DOZENS of variables further limiting ranged dps in this game. And you cant HONESTLY say that ranged dpsers have it good in the current setup. Id say there pretty kitten even.

Ghost Yak

(edited by Shadelang.3012)

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

I think it says quite a bit when you hear “this isn’t working, let’s range it instead” all the time and never “this isn’t working, let’s melee it”.

I have. For example, the same groups that would consistently wipe on Clockheart when ranging, would have far easier time meleeing it.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: Dave.2536

Dave.2536

“Nope. Only Projectiles” I fealt I had to quote this again it made me laugh pretty hard. Welp that leaves me ONE attack on my longbow. zero attacks on the shortbow and axe.

The marks on necro staff but those aren’t exactly gonna kill all that quickly now are they?

wow man. comeon.

Staff ele says hi. Also, bringing up trash mobs in a ranged vs melee safety debate?

Let me quote you again here because I can’t say it any better.

wow man. comeon.

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to be faceroll at the high levels, because it
needs to be accessible to the casuals and bads.

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Posted by: Shadelang.3012

Shadelang.3012

I think it says quite a bit when you hear “this isn’t working, let’s range it instead” all the time and never “this isn’t working, let’s melee it”.

I have. For example, the same groups that would consistently wipe on Clockheart when ranging, would have far easier time meleeing it.

Hmm ive personally never had an issue with clockheart in either way but I could see how this has happened. I still cant recall a single time that anyone in my gaming experience has called for ranged outside of a joke ever since the stack method became popular. Usually the group disbands long before that point.

Ghost Yak

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Posted by: Shadelang.3012

Shadelang.3012

“Nope. Only Projectiles” I fealt I had to quote this again it made me laugh pretty hard. Welp that leaves me ONE attack on my longbow. zero attacks on the shortbow and axe.

The marks on necro staff but those aren’t exactly gonna kill all that quickly now are they?

wow man. comeon.

Staff ele says hi. Also, bringing up trash mobs in a ranged vs melee safety debate?

Let me quote you again here because I can’t say it any better.

wow man. comeon.

HAHAHA he brought up the tentacles first man arguably just as much a trash mob as the jade elementals the entire fight is just killing trash to collect crystals a “boss” doesnt even appear so Im not sure how this can even be counted. All I was doing was bringing up the MANDATORY TO KILL mob RIGHT next to them that needed either MELEE or AOE skills to kill them. Not the majority of ranged attacks that are projectiles.

Ghost Yak

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

I was also refuting a rather ignorant statement that ranged dps is inherently safer. Its safer yes but at a cost that compensates for that safety.

So it is safer. Nice of you to contradict yourself. You are essentially agreeing with us but at the same time disagreeing with us. Which is a little confusing.

Also the jade elementals can be killed in complete range and quickly with necro axe or scepter. They can be killed by a staff guard and gs mesmer aswell. Ofcourse a ranger is going to have trouble ranging them considering that rangers ranged weapons are all projectile based. :P

(edited by spoj.9672)

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Posted by: Dave.2536

Dave.2536

So it is safer. Nice of you to contradict yourself. You are essentially agreeing with us but at the same time disagreeing with us. Which is a little confusing.

He seems to be considering the cost of looking like the biggest liability to the group when something goes wrong and being the easiest scapegoat.

Also, ranger pets can attack the jade elementals with no issues, so rangers are not completely helpless even without a melee weapon.

Content in this game will always seem
to be faceroll at the high levels, because it
needs to be accessible to the casuals and bads.

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Posted by: Shadelang.3012

Shadelang.3012

I was also refuting a rather ignorant statement that ranged dps is inherently safer. Its safer yes but at a cost that compensates for that safety.

So it is safer. Nice of you to contradict yourself. You are essentially agreeing with us but at the same time disagreeing with us. Which is a little confusing.

I love how you completely ignored the rest of that post. Let me say it again for you.

The “safety” of ranged dps is compensated for. Which incase you can’t figure that out means it is taken out of the final equation in a 2-2=0 kinda way.

The “safety” of ranged dps is its freedom of movement…THATS ALL.

They restricted this by A…Lowering our damage of ranged weapons below that of melee weapons.

B. Creating mechanics specifically to counter ranged.

C. Requiring L.O.S. To hit targets.

D. Creating boss mechanics that target ranged players.

E. Creating boss arenas that limit ranged players.

F. Requiring several ranged weapons to require specific traits and utilities to be viable as weapons or to even be used effectively.

G. Requiring the lower damage ranged damage dealers to forgo tankier armor in favor of dps armor to even be comporable in dps a fully mighted meleer in knights.

H. Limiting the range of boon share abilities so that ranged players AT range will have to move out of htere strike zones in order to obtain said boons.

I. CREATING very specific requirments that must be obtained to come close to a non mighted zerk melee dealers dps.

I hope I dont have to go on.

As I said before. I am fine with and AGREE TO these limitations. I am completely okay with them in every way. I am simply attempting to dispel the false assumption that we are obtaining safety without any significant drawback. Which is very much untrue.

Ghost Yak

(edited by Shadelang.3012)

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Posted by: Shadelang.3012

Shadelang.3012

So it is safer. Nice of you to contradict yourself. You are essentially agreeing with us but at the same time disagreeing with us. Which is a little confusing.

He seems to be considering the cost of looking like the biggest liability to the group when something goes wrong and being the easiest scapegoat.

Also, ranger pets can attack the jade elementals with no issues, so rangers are not completely helpless even without a melee weapon.

Yes. Were helped by our class mechanic that both melee and ranged rangers have equally o.O

Ghost Yak

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Posted by: Coulter.2315

Coulter.2315

The general tone of this thread seems to be 2 sided.
1) I don’t want to party with people not running most optimal setup.
2) I don’t want to party with those demanding most optimal setup.

Wouldn’t the addition of DPS meters allow both these groups to get what they want more easily? I don’t see why people would argue against it.

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Posted by: ProtoGunner.4953

ProtoGunner.4953

Hey. I gotta say your right. Many people are tolerant. It still doesnt change that ranged players are more likely to be blamed for mishaps than melees. When I first started my guardian I died quite often. Using a new class took some getting used to and I often avoided stacking becuase I simply wasn’t used to being that close to another person. I didn’t understand at the time how much easier it was to play with 4 other melees right next to you ready to pick me up if I died. I never once got kicked.

On my ranger however I range the molten twins. The reason for this is im quite used to pugs dieing there. I often have a 70% success rate in soloing the rest of hte zerkers health down..rezzing my team mates and salvaging the fight. In almost every one of hte remaining 30% though. Im often kicked from the group and blamed as being hte cause of the wipe due to my (pitiful dps they had to carry) despite being the last one alive.

Yeah true. If they blame someone it is the noob with the always ranged weapon :-)

Anyway, it’s really horrible to see all the staff guardians out there. Actually, about 8 out of 10 guardians I see in dungeons run with a staff. They think the might and healing is great and do ‘good’ damage with the 1 skill… I even had a discussion recently with a guardian in our guild claiming that staff is the way to go lol. If people just knew how horrible this weapon in dungeons is…

‘would have/would’ve been’ —> correct
‘would of been’ —> wrong

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Posted by: Shadelang.3012

Shadelang.3012

The general tone of this thread seems to be 2 sided.
1) I don’t want to party with people not running most optimal setup.
2) I don’t want to party with those demanding most optimal setup.

Wouldn’t the addition of DPS meters allow both these groups to get what they want more easily? I don’t see why people would argue against it.

A personal dps meter would be fine by me. It might help to get some concrete calculations down.

Ghost Yak

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

I was also refuting a rather ignorant statement that ranged dps is inherently safer. Its safer yes but at a cost that compensates for that safety.

So it is safer. Nice of you to contradict yourself. You are essentially agreeing with us but at the same time disagreeing with us. Which is a little confusing.

I love how you completely ignored the rest of that post. Let me say it again for you.

The “safety” of ranged dps is compensated for. Which incase you can’t figure that out means it is taken out of the final equation in a 2-2=0 kinda way.

The “safety” of ranged dps is its freedom of movement…THATS ALL.

They restricted this by A…Lowering our damage of ranged weapons below that of melee weapons.

B. Creating mechanics specifically to counter ranged.

C. Requiring L.O.S. To hit targets.

D. Creating boss mechanics that target ranged players.

E. Creating boss arenas that limit ranged players.

F. Requiring several ranged weapons to require specific traits and utilities to be viable as weapons or to even be used effectively.

G. Requiring the lower damage ranged damage dealers to forgo tankier armor in favor of dps armor to even be comporable in dps a fully mighted meleer in knights.

H. Limiting the range of boon share abilities so that ranged players AT range will have to move out of htere strike zones in order to obtain said boons.

I. CREATING very specific requirments that must be obtained to come close to a non mighted zerk melee dealers dps.

I hope I dont have to go on.

I did not overlook the rest of the post. Im well aware of the opportunity costs of range vs melee. But that doesnt change the fact that you are argueing with us yet we are simply saying ranged combat is easier. Because it is. Which is also what you are saying. You just seem to be talking down to us like we dont know that there are disadvantages to ranging. We arent disagreeing with that. They are moot points when we are simply discussing difficulty and nullifying of boss attacks.

Although your points B and D should probably be left out. There are far more attacks and mechanics which counter melee than mechanics which counter range. Zui’s list shows just a small sample of this.

(edited by spoj.9672)

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Posted by: Shadelang.3012

Shadelang.3012

I was also refuting a rather ignorant statement that ranged dps is inherently safer. Its safer yes but at a cost that compensates for that safety.

So it is safer. Nice of you to contradict yourself. You are essentially agreeing with us but at the same time disagreeing with us. Which is a little confusing.

I love how you completely ignored the rest of that post. Let me say it again for you.

The “safety” of ranged dps is compensated for. Which incase you can’t figure that out means it is taken out of the final equation in a 2-2=0 kinda way.

The “safety” of ranged dps is its freedom of movement…THATS ALL.

They restricted this by A…Lowering our damage of ranged weapons below that of melee weapons.

B. Creating mechanics specifically to counter ranged.

C. Requiring L.O.S. To hit targets.

D. Creating boss mechanics that target ranged players.

E. Creating boss arenas that limit ranged players.

F. Requiring several ranged weapons to require specific traits and utilities to be viable as weapons or to even be used effectively.

G. Requiring the lower damage ranged damage dealers to forgo tankier armor in favor of dps armor to even be comporable in dps a fully mighted meleer in knights.

H. Limiting the range of boon share abilities so that ranged players AT range will have to move out of htere strike zones in order to obtain said boons.

I. CREATING very specific requirments that must be obtained to come close to a non mighted zerk melee dealers dps.

I hope I dont have to go on.

I did not overlook the rest of the post. Im well aware of the opportunity costs of range vs melee. But that doesnt change the fact that you are argueing with us yet we are simply saying ranged combat is easier. Because it is. Which is also what you are saying. You just seem to be talking down to us like we dont know that there are disadvantages to ranging. We arent disagreeing with that. They are moot points when we are simply discussing difficulty and nullifying of boss attacks.

The way you have phrased your posts over and over again shows me that you feel that ranged dps is gaining safety without facing DIFFERENT problems. Just as any playstyle will face different problems than any other. If I sound like im talking down to you I apologize for that. It may have something to do with being very early in the morning with that. I was never origianlly discussing the ability to nullify a bosses attacks. I was explaining what we give up in return for that. By giving up those things we EARN the ability to nulify those bosses attacks. By having to deal with a set of issues that melee dpsers in this game simply don’t have to think about.

Ghost Yak

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Posted by: Shadelang.3012

Shadelang.3012

I guess what I am trying to say is. Ranged dps is not easier. Its SAFER. Its Calmer. But it isn’t Easier. A ranged dpser has significantly more variables to worry about. We trade safety for more variables in our performance that we have to worry about ourselves. We don’t get to rely on another person to might us up or revive us when we down. We have to be able to increase our dps on our own in most cases and instead we must NEVER go down. Yes we have safety. But we also have to play our role kitten near PERFECTLY in the wider range of possibility were given.

I hope that makes sense.

Ghost Yak

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Well thats where the disagreement comes. Melee do have to think about a lot more things. They also have to memorise and counter a much larger pool of boss attacks. However the game is so old that this has become second nature for the average player. Which is why the average pug now favours melee over range in the majority of dungeons. However your newer and harder content still shows a tendency of pugs resorting to the safety of range (fractals).

Personally i dont think there is enough counters to range combat. Its way too easy and nullifies far too many mechanics. But at the same time melee is also too easy for most dungeons. But thats old content for you. In fractals the balance is a little better and hopefully that will be improved further in future content. Basically what im trying to say is I want bosses to be difficult even for ranged parties to the point where they have to deal with the same amount of attacks as melee parties do now. But I want melee players to have an even larger variety to deal with. So an overall difficulty increase. Ranged would no longer be over the top easy and melee would be even harder.

Also safer = easier.

(edited by spoj.9672)

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Posted by: Shadelang.3012

Shadelang.3012

Well thats where the disagreement comes. Melee do have to think about a lot more things. They also have to memorise and counter a much larger pool of boss attacks. However the game is so old that this has become second nature for the average player. Which is why the average pug now favours melee over range in the majority of dungeons. However your newer and harder content still shows a tendency of pugs resorting to the safety of range (fractals).

Personally i dont think there is enough counters to range combat. Its way too easy and nullifies far too many mechanics. But at the same time melee is also too easy for most dungeons. But thats old content for you. In fractals the balance is a little better and hopefully that will be improved further in future content.

I agree that fractals are better place to see hte skill involved in both ranged and melee playstyles. I still believe that ranged players when they chose to sperate from the melee group take on an extra risk. As they from then on HAVE to perform to the absolute limit or simply not even be worth having. Thats a whole nother kind of pressure. I doubt melee users really worry about getting kicked unless they die over and over and over again.

I can honestly say I use what I have to perform better than most melee players. And I also know that the reason for that is because I dont have the choice to NOT do the absolute best that the build I use holds.

I also agree that dungeons dont have enough counters for ranged content. With the exception of the Twilight Aetherpath.

Many of the new mobs are very resistant to ranged playstyles. So your getting your wish in future content.

As for melee remembering more boss mechanics. I can honestly say most melee people I knwo that do dungeons regularly dont actually know the individual mechanics of most bosses. They just dodge on muscle memory at this point. They never had to watch and study to figure out which attacks were harmless and which weren’t. They simply react to what happens. I find that most of the bosses that do infact force melee people to learn individual mechanics are the less traveled ones. Im looking at Twilight aetherpath again.

Edit: Learn that trading safety for complexity does not infact make it easier. It makes it calmer. Just because a ranged player isn’t panicking while hes playing doesn’t mean its easy for him. Also. I don’t think the mechanics in this game even remotely qualify as actually difficult as most can be mitigated or completely negated. I dont think ive heard of even a single (unavoidable guaranteed kill) mechanic in this game that you find quite often in other MMOs that usually plague meleers. I find the melee combat in this game is massively easier in comparison to what ive seen elsewhere.

Ghost Yak

(edited by Shadelang.3012)

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Posted by: Zui.9245

Zui.9245

Ok, fine, I’ll do it for some dungeons too, since you want to arbitrarily separate fractals and dungeons. How about CM?

Path 1:

Gunpowder Morgan – One melee attack, two very slow ranged attacks that hit both melee and ranged players. People melee because the melee attack isn’t that threatening and anti-projectile skills exist. It’s even easier to range behind anti-projectile skills, just slower.

Bloody Victoria – All melee attacks. People melee only because it’s faster, and not that much harder. It’s even easier to range, just slower.

Frost – Easy to AFK-range from a safe spot, but slowish. Easy to range without a safespot, but also slow. Moderately difficult to melee, but really not rocket science (if you have ~half or better of your party in meta-ish specs and no one is totally clueless, it’ll be fine), and pretty fast to do. People melee because it’s faster, despite being comparatively much harder than ranging (even though melee isn’t that hard)

Path 2:

Taylor – Only ranged attacks. Does nothing if you have anti-projectile skills. Because of this, it doesn’t matter if you range or melee. Only difference is that melee is faster. Oh, and you don’t actually even need anti-projectile skills if you’re moderately clever (versus an immobile boss) and plan to range. Ranging is still easier, but not by much, and it takes a lot longer. So people melee.

Turmaine – Punishing to melee. Can AFK range in a couple of different ways. Pretty easy to range normally without AFK-mode exploits. Nearly everyone ranges this boss.

Path 3:

Sure Shot Seamus – His shotgun doesn’t even hit you if you’re at high enough range. It’s even more trivial to sidestep at high range. He knocks you out of his range if you do get hit. You can’t be a total liability and get virtually your entire team hit. The reason people melee here is because it’s an extremely basic encounter and if you’re not completely clueless as to mechanics and pay attention (and/or just have a Guardian who drops Hallowed Ground) you can successfully melee and kill him pretty easily, with it also being fast; ranging from a very high distance is still easier.

Wahlen – Easy to range with (duh) or without (try it… it’s a joke) anti-projectile skills. Does have a melee-only attack, which hurts a decent amount. Because everything else is a projectile, you can just melee and use anti-projectile skills. Easier to range than melee, but melee is much faster and not very hard. So people melee.

Vallog – Hop attack fairly punishing and melee only. Fireball affects both ranged and melee, but is trivial to sidestep at range; but antiprojectile skills and/or block/evades exist. Reflects projectiles for portions of the fight. Much easier to range than melee, but range is also a lot slower. Melee isn’t really hard, because the boss has a low enough health pool and damage output that you can kill it behind some antiprojectile skills and totally fail to dodge the hop every single time and have it not matter at all.

So what pattern do we see here? Ranged against bosses is still invariably easier than melee. It’s just that for nearly every boss, melee is extremely easy, and the sole exception to that (Turmaine) is basically always ranged except by a small fraction of players who can melee him (…and it’s not even that hard, TBH). And the partial exception of Frost is often exploit-ranged, especially if the group dies after trying and failing to melee

Basically, the only reason people melee is because the encounters are simple in terms of mechanics, not very punishing in terms of mechanics, and melee is a lot faster with little added difficulty here.

End Part 1 of this post.

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Posted by: Zui.9245

Zui.9245

So hey, let’s look at Honor of the Waves next!

Path 1:

Icebrood Troll – it gets ranged, because it has very punishing (albeit trivially easy to deal with) melee attacks. Range is much easier than melee; it also takes a lot longer, but people still do it.

Aldus Stormbringer – Extremely easy to range, just don’t attack when he’s reflecting projectiles. His ranged attacks are reflectable (at any distance), but also very easy to avoid at high range. His PBAoE only affects melee players, and can wreck them if they’re clueless. For the HotW1 PUGs I’ve been in, a pretty good number range despite how insanely easy (and how much faster) this guy is to melee.

Ginva the Butcher – Nearly every group ranges. It takes forever and he reflects projectiles for part of the fight, but his melee attacks are fast and very punishing, especially his whirling defense.

Path 2:

Torn Fur – Much more punishing at melee than range. About 50% of groups/players still range this guy, because melee is “hard”.

Jaddeor Icefist – Optional boss everyone skips except especially clueless parties. A complete joke to range. Medium (on the low end of medium) difficulty to melee.

Balgrenn Creedbreaker – Ranged attacks are even easier to avoid when you’re ranging. You can totally ignore the fear when you’re ranging. Much easier to range than melee. A lot of groups range.

Andal the Thug + Quaggans – If you pug this, expect to see everyone using a ranged weapon to make it easymode. Ranged is a joke, but very long. Melee is harder and also longish because this is HotW and all bosses must have massive amounts of HP.

Wollam the Plunderer – Decent damage melee autoattack, a throw mine attack that you can nearly totally ignore if you’re ranging, and an rush attack that will wreck you if you’re in melee, but is trivial to dodge if you’re ranging. Pretty much everyone is ranging here, despite it taking longer, because it’s easymode.

Path 3:

Icebrood Goliath – A joke to range. Mild difficulty to melee. If you pug it, expect practically everyone to range because it’s very easy.

Svanigandr – Not hard at all to range. Extremely punishing to melee. People range.

Fimbul – Much easier to range, again. Expect lots of ranging to occur.

Sorge the Zealot – Easy to range. More difficult to melee. Expect everyone to range.

In Honor of the Waves, the difficulty difference between ranging and meleeing is often very large. Ranging is a joke, and meleeing is moderately difficult to hard, or at least quite punishing of mistakes. And nearly everyone in your party is going to range absolutely everything, because it’s easy

What can we conclude from this? I’d say we can conclude that the odds of meleeing something only improve when it’s not much harder than ranging it, and when there few punishing melee mechanics you have to worry about.

The exact same pattern we see in fractals applies to dungeons. People generally range difficult to melee encounters even though it’s slower, and generally melee easy to melee encounters just because it’s faster. Difficulty seems to be the main factor. Virtually every encounter is eaier at range than melee, except for a handful which are effectively equally easy.

End final part of this post.

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Posted by: hybrid.5027

hybrid.5027

I guess what I am trying to say is. Ranged dps is not easier. Its SAFER. Its Calmer. But it isn’t Easier. A ranged dpser has significantly more variables to worry about.

This has to be a joke. You claim to have been playing since beta but you don’t understand that the range-kite method is essentially playing PvE in easy mode?

More variables? Really? Like what? You have to avoid the occassional attack that comes your way maybe 1/5th of the time. You have to backpedal. Yeah thats totally more variables than what’s happening in an organized group melee’ing a boss.

oh wait its not.

I know who I am, do you know who you are?

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Posted by: Shadelang.3012

Shadelang.3012

I guess what I am trying to say is. Ranged dps is not easier. Its SAFER. Its Calmer. But it isn’t Easier. A ranged dpser has significantly more variables to worry about.

This has to be a joke. You claim to have been playing since beta but you don’t understand that the range-kite method is essentially playing PvE in easy mode?

More variables? Really? Like what? You have to avoid the occassional attack that comes your way maybe 1/5th of the time. You have to backpedal. Yeah thats totally more variables than what’s happening in an organized group melee’ing a boss.

oh wait its not.

Hybrid. Ive already typed out my response to this exact thing your saying. Feel free to go back and read it. If you still feel differently feel free to maintain that opinion. If you don’t want to see it you wont. its as simple as that. Atleast others here understood what I was actually saying though.

Ghost Yak

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Posted by: Shadelang.3012

Shadelang.3012

For now though im gonna get some sleep. TY those of you that actually attempted to comprehend. And to the person that sent me a mail Im having some trouble replying using this website but ill get with you when I can in game.

Ghost Yak

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Posted by: Zui.9245

Zui.9245

My entire long post was a response to your statement of:

“Zui you are speaking of fractal bosses. Something I have already said before I hold seperate from dungeons. As many fractal’s are designed to be just as punishing to melee as they are to ranged. Some (specifically the ones you mentioned) are designed to be VERY punishing to zerker melees.”

Instead of you saying that range is a joke and you barely need to engage with the mechanics when you range stuff (and you even supposedly agree with that last point), you decided to essentially just say that range is ‘different’ and ‘safer’, but not ‘easier’. And then you decided to try and artificially separate dungeons and fractals, when the exact same pattern exists across all content (even world bosses). So I decided to show that the exact same pattern exists across dungeon content, too.

The supposedly unique challenges you present as facing ranged players cannot be serious. Especially that argument about how if you get downed while ranging, you’ll likely go defeated. And then of course, someone will probably resurrect you at (temporary) greater DPS loss, because the DPS loss of ressing you is better than you not contributing for the rest of the fight, and everyone being up is even safer still. Your objection to range trading DPS for safety basically boils down to “yeah, but range also trades DPS for safety so you’re just not getting it!”

And then your objection to equating safety with ease. Of course something that requires you to engage with less mechanics, factor in less variables (…not buying the argument that ranged players need to account for more variables, increasing difficult enough that the added safety is balanced out by the extra variables so it’s just as difficult…), and where the mechanics you have to engage with are virtually always less punishing than they would be in melee (or at worst, merely equally punishing) is going to be easier. If you have x time to react to a projectile attack at melee, and 3x time to react when you’re sitting at 1000 range, of course it’s going to be easier to react. If you have less variables to manage, and less mechanics to manage in addition to that, of course it’s going to be easier. Every single factor you can identify as providing difficulty in this game provides less difficulty when you’ve got to react to a reduced set of mechanics, with more time to react, and only need to react about 20% of the time anyway. Ranging is objectively and demonstrably easier than meleeing in virtually every encounter (except maybe pre-fix spider queen… but that’s not true anymore), especially any encounter than anyone would deem difficult.

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Im with Zui on this. He has definately succeeded in comprehending your posts. He was simply providing examples which proves your statement of “range has more variables to deal with” incorrect.

Hes not wrong with any of his statements. And is looking at things objectively. Whereas you seem to be discounting the variety of attacks and their relative difficulty at countering in melee and range. You are ignoring an important variable which is the main reason for ranged combat being easier and having less things to deal with.

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Posted by: fishball.7204

fishball.7204

Ranging is definitely harder. Harder to stay awake cuz it’s so boring & slow.

FOR THE GREEEEEEEEEEEEN

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Posted by: Shadelang.3012

Shadelang.3012

So after completely failing to sleep I went ahead and came back on. I reread the posts from the beginning and I realize they were worded and phrased poorly. I also dismissed other perspectives. I blame lack of sleep on this one as my last few days have been hell. I should not have posted in the state of mind I have been in. Note this is not an excuse but simply a statement of fact.

I still largely disagree with you. But I realize now its simply a matter of perspective. The dangers you refer to in melee simply don’t seem as dangers to me. And the difficulties I see in ranged you don’t see as significant. That isnt meant to be a slight but simply how I see things now that I have calmed down.

I will apologize for my tone in my earlier posts. And ill even delete some of the more aggressive ones. However I believe that the points I made are still infact valid. However I admit they are heavily subject to perspective.

I PERSONALLY have no problems with the melee content in this game. I should not have used that to judge the overall difficulty of mechanics. Again that isn’t a slight. Ive been a gamer since I was 8 so my reactions to certain mechanics are higher than most. My reactions to ranged style of combat however or not nearly as well developed. Its likely that colors my current view of the game. If the majority of people view what im saying as wrong it is very likely that they are in fact the correct view as far as the health and path of the game is concerned.

I will not say I was wrong. Because I do not believe I am. I do however believe I should have phrased what I stated in a better matter to better push forward my perspective. I will endavor to do so in future posts.

Ghost Yak

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Posted by: Bernie.8674

Bernie.8674

My intent was closer to this:

  • Zerkers kill some bosses before their abilities can trigger
  • Stackers nullify some bosses’ game mechanics

Part of the misunderstanding might be that your intent was, “some bosses’ game mechanics,” but you said, “all bosses.”

I said “all boss mechanics.” Diagram the sentence. Boss was a modifier in that sentence, not a noun. Glad I could clear that misunderstanding up for you.

keep in mind that this is not conjecture; it’s based on years of WoW experience and extensive use of the Recount DPS meter.

It is very much conjecture that an element in an old-school raiding game would work the same, or have the same impact, in a casual non-raiding game. Not saying that I disagree with you about the impact, just that it is still conjecture.

This wasn’t only the case in raiding. It was also the case in heroic dungeons, especially in the Cataclysm days. Heroic dungeons in WoW during that period were harder than fractals are now.