Guild Wars 2

rotten.9753:

Ashen.2907:

Belief and proof are very different things. One does not need to believe in that whih can be proven, it just is.

If you are going to attempt to use math/statistics to prove the validity of something in the manner that you did, the burden is on you to show that your same is representative of the whole. If you cannot do so the your calculations are questionable at best.

Em, I’m not trying to prove anything. I’m trying to say that neither side has more validity than the other since there’s no data available for us about that issue.

My apologies then. I was responding to the post where it seemed you were attempting to prove mathematically.

Ashen.2907:

I bet that if I were to poll a thousand players who dont PvP about whether or not dev resources should be spent on that game mode the reponse would indicate that, “a majority of GW2 players want development on PvP stopped.”

That would actually be true but that doesn’t stop anet from doing that. Same exact situation as spending resources on content that not everyone will even try to complete.

But again, a matter of perspective.

silvermember.8941:

Wildstar is the perfect example of what happens when you design content for a very loud and annoying vocal minority.

You are another one of those posters who post without reading the rest of the thread. Really sick of you guys.

1. Wildstar advertised itself for hardcore raiding
2. A lot of us want GW1-esque elite mission type raiding in GW2 with GW2 based rewards.
3. You CANNOT compare the small group 8-10 people raids we are requesting to other games.

Go back to the drawing board.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

no, not having to make schedules for a game is one of the reasons I love GW2. I don’t want to play instanced content with randoms and I don’t want the situation where people have to wait for their guildies to play content.

You already have to wait for guildies for Guild Missions, what’s your point?

Bernie.8674:

Oh, then the 1500 silk that I still need to gather in order to complete the ascended set for my main character must be all in my mind, as were the six months it took to even max my crafting as well as the other three months it took to craft the few pieces I do have. I’ll be sure to hop in and craft the remaining pieces now that I realize there’s no treadmill.

My friend, you made a choice in doing that. For approximately, 5% increase in stats – you decided to grind it out. I’ve been completely able to successfully complete all PvE activities with exotic gear and ascended weapons + trinkets. Heck, I even have 2 characters in full ascended, but that was through normal gameplay. I didn’t buy a single thing. I earned all the mats.

Also, since ArenaNet said that they won’t be releasing NEW tiers. You can rest assured when I said there won’t be any gear grinding.

Bernie.8674:

Or did you mean skins? It looks like maybe you did, judging from these statements:

Yes I meant skins. Skins are GW2 end-game progression (along with the new Mastery system they will be rolling out)

Bernie.8674:

If you think you’re going to get nine other people together on a regular basis to grind through raids for nothing more than the promise of a better skin, then you’re going to have to brace yourself for some disappointment.

I already have to rally guild members for when we do Guild Missions. To smoothly pass Guild Challenge, you need at least 10 people. So raids shouldn’t be a problem.

The hardcores can do it on a regular basis, I myself only do these type of things with friends – I’m in no rush to grind it out, since the content won’t disappear and the reward is only skins, so it won’t affect my gameplay in any way, shape or form.

Bernie.8674:

Then you really have no idea of the connotations inherent in asking for a raiding system with exclusive rewards. I hate to break it to you, but many of us have played WoW at one time or another, and our shared experience brings certain expectations of what a raid is and isn’t.

I absolutely despise jumping puzzles myself, and I would have been happy to say so if someone had started a jumping puzzle poll on these forums. However, this poll was about raiding, so I stated my opinion on that. Yours may differ, and that’s OK. You’re probably not going to change my mind, and I doubt I’ll change yours. From the sound of it, you’re thinking of Elite Missions from GW1 when you say “raid.” Those are similar, but I wouldn’t call them raids.

I do. Just because I didn’t play it, doesn’t mean I haven’t spent time reading forum posts, etc.

Like you said, and like I have explicitly expressed, I do NOT want raids systems that are available in other games. I want GW1 Elite Mission. I call them raids, because that’s what we had in GW1, that was what raids meant for us.

I respect the knowledge and anguish of raids that some of you are bringing over from WoW, but that is not what we, GW1 Veterans are requesting for. Just like you know WoW, I know GW. With the way ArenaNet is running things, I highly doubt they would release content that will highly segregate the population.

spoj.9672:

So fractals and dungeons werent worth putting in the game because they create exclusivity? I think a lot of players would have a problem with what you are implying. Even players who dont spend most of their game time in dungeons and fractals.

When was the last time you saw a new fractal or dungeon? Besides, low level fractals are pretty easy. The most difficult fractals I’ve endured are still a little less difficult than the LFR version (easy mode raiding) of the SOO raid in WoW. I wouldn’t consider fractals and dungeons exclusive. I’ve two-manned some bosses, and I’m pretty sure that anything could be at least four-manned in there. No single player is going to prevent you from finishing a fractal.

oh cool…I didn’t expect a clear majority of this forum to be in favor of raids. That’s a very pleasant surprise to me tbh

I think raids would fit well in GW2 if they included the following:

1. They have to scale. It doesn’t have to be extreme – something along the lines of 8-15 people would be perfect.

2. Ideally, they would be short – maybe as short as a single fight (possibly unlocked/tied in to the outpost system).

3. The reward system should compliment the rest of the game. It shouldn’t be any more or less rewarding than any other content. That isnt to say that there cant be unique titles or rewards, but no more so than found through other game modes.

4. Raiding cannot be seen as the pinnacle of end game content. It should be limited in scale and cohesively fit with the rest of the game (ie, my idea about unlocking/timegating through the outpost system).

I think most people (myself at the top of the list) are most worried about raiding taking over PVE endgame the way it has in games like WoW or Wildstar. We aren’t against raiding – we just want to make sure it is done with the GW2 mindset/attitude of inclusion and community building.

Brahmincorle.1264:

How about “B team”? My guild solved this problem by setting up the B team. This raid was for PvPers, alts, those who were not ready for A team yet and those (main characters) who did not made it that week into A team raid because it was full. Mains who would normaly be in A team but registered for raid too late had guaranteed spot in A team raid next week. And gues what… it worked perfectly.

It works perfectly for the guys on the A team. It’s absolutely demoralizing for the poor saps who are stuck in remedial raiding. On the other hand, it’s a great way to gear them up and beef up their chances of getting into a guild that’s not going to treat them like second class citizens. Hearing you talk so casually about creating an sub group in your guild that is dedicated to gearing your alts just makes me appreciate the fact that I don’t have to see crap like that in this game.

Bernie.8674:

spoj.9672:

So fractals and dungeons werent worth putting in the game because they create exclusivity? I think a lot of players would have a problem with what you are implying. Even players who dont spend most of their game time in dungeons and fractals.

When was the last time you saw a new fractal or dungeon? Besides, low level fractals are pretty easy. The most difficult fractals I’ve endured are still a little less difficult than the LFR version (easy mode raiding) of the SOO raid in WoW. I wouldn’t consider fractals and dungeons exclusive. I’ve two-manned some bosses, and I’m pretty sure that anything could be at least four-manned in there. No single player is going to prevent you from finishing a fractal.

So why would raids/elite zones/missions be any different? Get your head out of other games raid systems please. I dont know how many times i can repeat that.

Avster.1935:

I already have to rally guild members for when we do Guild Missions. To smoothly pass Guild Challenge, you need at least 10 people. So raids shouldn’t be a problem.

My guild does missions weekly. They take 45 minutes total. I’m talking the puzzle, the challenge, the rush, and the bounty. At the end of it all, we each have two gold, and sometimes and exotic or ascended piece. At the very least we have lots of rares for salvage and some guild commendations. You don’t even have to stick around for all of it. If you only have time for the rush and the puzzle before bailing it’s no one’s loss. That is nothing like a traditional raid. A raid is a multi-hour commitment that requires full participation. There may be minor payouts along the way, but the ultimate payout only comes at the very end. For those who are actually along for the rewards, enduring a multi-hour crawl only to come up with vendor trash at the end is extremely frustrating.

Avster.1935:

I respect the knowledge and anguish of raids that some of you are bringing over from WoW, but that is not what we, GW1 Veterans are requesting for. Just like you know WoW, I know GW. With the way ArenaNet is running things, I highly doubt they would release content that will highly segregate the population.

If you want GW1-style elite missions you should call them that instead of raids. My guild was one of the first to tackle the Deeps, and I was fortunate enough to participate in their efforts. However, I also have to say that once I completed elite missions I was in no hurry to do them again. Even if I had wanted to repeat them, it was tough to find others willing to slog through the instance yet again. That was my experience in GW1, and it was in line with my expectations. Large scale instanced content simply provides a bad return on investment from a game designer’s perspective.

spoj.9672:

So why would raids/elite zones/missions be any different? Get your head out of other games raid systems please. I dont know how many times i can repeat that.

Please quit calling them raids, then. There have never been any raids in Guild Wars 1 or Guild Wars 2, so what other frame of reference to we have for raiding if not other games? Elite Missions resemble raids, but they are not raids. They’re more like guild puzzles with dungeon bosses. If you don’t want to conjure images of raiding in other games then don’t use that term.

Arguing semantics. It’s already been explained many times what people want for this game. No need to keep bringing up problems from other games that people aren’t asking for here. The devs used the word raids in the CDI while also explaining it wouldn’t be implemented the exact same way as other games here if they were to do it.

Arcadio.6875:

Arguing semantics. It’s already been explained many times what people want for this game. No need to keep bringing up problems from other games that people aren’t asking for here. The devs used the word raids in the CDI while also explaining it wouldn’t be implemented the exact same way as other games here if they were to do it.

This. Thank you.

Yes, frankly World Bosses take almost NO SKILL NEEDED, ill bring a ranger shoot from 1500+ range i hit every world boss in the face, no need to spam 2 just auto atk is fine. Dungeons in GW2 are fun but they are also old, getting new instances are better than nothing at all.

10 man raids are a defenite YES to me, You don’t have to do them if you don’t want to just as some people don’t WvW or PVP, But it is a new type of content that the current game has not yet added and i welcome it with its flaws, because i am sure that ANET listens to its playerbase and will make a More than 5 man party raid worthy to be called a RAID, just as they had done in GW1 with:
1) Underworld
2) Fissure of Woe
3) Sorrow’s Furnace
4) Urgoz Warren
5) The Deep
6) Tomb of the Primevil Kings
7) and the Domain of Anguish.

Hylgeriak.8250:

oh cool…I didn’t expect a clear majority of this forum to be in favor of raids. That’s a very pleasant surprise to me tbh

Read through the Raid CDI if you have a chance.

There was a very good discussion in there about how Raids in Gw2 should work even if some idiotic discussion slipped in now and then.

One of the primary concepts I wanted to talk about more which kinda got sidetracked was this idea of soft-roles or designing encounters with it requiring certain utilities most professions have access to like stealth, boon striping, Condi damage, reflects, interupts, etc.

The sadly the discussion got hijacked before we really could establish what should be the rules for implementing such roles should be.

rotten.9753:

I don’t want to go back to other games, I want to see statistics concerning gw2 population. Your argumentation is as solid as everyone’s else as long as you don’t present valid arguments.

So we agree there’s no valid polling statistics for GW2. In this case, we look at other games in the genre and analogous situations in GW2.

Looking at the genre: The movement is away from instanced raiding. Why is this if it isn’t due to cost/benefit analysis?

Looking at analogs in GW2: They’ve stopped development on dungeons and didn’t even touch fractals for almost a year (up to the current round of bugfixes). We don’t have Arenanet’s internals, but what would the reason be if it weren’t poor player participation?

~~~

You don’t ignore industry trends because you don’t like their implications.

Windsagio.1340:

Looking at the genre: The movement is away from instanced raiding. Why is this if it isn’t due to cost/benefit analysis?

Ive not seen any evidence of this. Are you making it up?

I’d like to see raid coming in the game but with a possibility to have an “easy” mode for pug and “hard” mode for pre made/ hardcore players.

My dream solution would be boss encounters (even re hash World bosses) without trash because they are always either useless or skipped, for which you may choose several difficulty levels or have some gambits which determine a score that makes you progress on a raid reward track.
Everyone could get the same rewards but better groups would just progress faster. The concept seem to work quite well in pvp.

So then, what would raids entail in GW2?

The things I’m seeing are:
1) Scale: People usually ask for 2 group, often 8-15 players
2) Closed instances.
3) “Challenge” Fingerquotes because this is such a hard to pin down term
4) Reards
5) Recognition

What of those factors am I wrong about being key, and which of them would be different between GW raids and other games raids?

Raids can be a good thing for the game as long as they are not over-emphasized the way they are in most MMOs. So, I say yes.

J envy.5270:

Yes, frankly World Bosses take almost NO SKILL NEEDED, ill bring a ranger shoot from 1500+ range i hit every world boss in the face, no need to spam 2 just auto atk is fine. Dungeons in GW2 are fun but they are also old, getting new instances are better than nothing at all.

One player doing this can be successful. Everyone in the zone doing this is going to be a guaranteed wipe. If you’re auto-shotting your way through Teq successfully, it’s only because there are 30 other players hitting him with the turrets, cleansing the poison wells with the turrets, killing the tentacles, and protecting the megalasers. To say no skill is needed is a gross mischaracterization of how world bosses work. There’s a difference between succeeding in spite of one player’s incompetence and succeeding through incompetence. You’re equating the two, and that’s dishonest.

J envy.5270:

10 man raids are a defenite YES to me, You don’t have to do them if you don’t want to just as some people don’t WvW or PVP, But it is a new type of content that the current game has not yet added and i welcome it with its flaws, because i am sure that ANET listens to its playerbase and will make a More than 5 man party raid worthy to be called a RAID, just as they had done in GW1 with:
1) Underworld
2) Fissure of Woe
3) Sorrow’s Furnace
4) Urgoz Warren
5) The Deep
6) Tomb of the Primevil Kings
7) and the Domain of Anguish.

Those weren’t raids. They were guild puzzles with dungeon bosses. The only objection I have to that sort of thing is that interest in them is short lived. I wouldn’t mind having something like that in the game, but I don’t think it would add all that much, either. They would also be a little harder to organize here because you can’t pad out your groups with heroes and henchmen.

Tom Gore.4035:

No.

But I don’t do dungeons, so it wouldn’t affect my gameplay either way.

Exactly. I feel the same way.

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

Looking at the genre: The movement is away from instanced raiding. Why is this if it isn’t due to cost/benefit analysis?

Ive not seen any evidence of this. Are you making it up?

Leaving Wildstar aside, earlier in the thread there’s a post with a bunch of stats and quotes relating to LOTRO and them backing off of raiding, including estimates of user engagement. There’s also of course GW2 itself which has spent most of its development time with no instanced raid content nor any indication of any.

Those are the things I’m basing it on.

So you cherry picked one game? Its hardly a trend.

Wildstar was actually very successful with raiding. Its just the rest of the game was terrible. Which is the real cause of its failure. It could have worked if more effort was put into the rest. I mean a big part of raiding is having alts and if the leveling experience is crap then thats basically asking for failure.

spoj.9672:

So you cherry picked one game? Its hardly a trend.

Wildstar was actually very successful with raiding. Its just the rest of the game was terrible. Which is the real cause of its failure. It could have worked if more effort was put into the rest. I mean a big part of raiding is having alts and if the leveling experience is crap then thats basically asking for failure.

I sourced 3 games, although I was being cute with 1.

1) Wildstar – People make excuses, but one of the main things they’re trying to change to salvage the game is raiding
2) Lotro, ABSOLUTELY EXPLICIT
3) GW2 – designed without exclusive raiding. Also, apparently poor dungeon participation and disbanded dungeon team.

~~~

I’ve been accused of being dismissive, and I want to be careful with that, but this really reads me as a case of you seeing what you want to see. There’s nothing that will convince you, but you’re only setting yourself up for an ugly reality check down the line.

The alliance raids in FFXIV are the only type of raids I’d be willing GW2 to have, mainly because the scale of the raid arenas / bosses are massive, like, open-world town sizes. Plus, they’re extremely easy to deal with if only a couple people mess up.

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

So you cherry picked one game? Its hardly a trend.

Wildstar was actually very successful with raiding. Its just the rest of the game was terrible. Which is the real cause of its failure. It could have worked if more effort was put into the rest. I mean a big part of raiding is having alts and if the leveling experience is crap then thats basically asking for failure.

I sourced 3 games, although I was being cute with 1.

1) Wildstar – People make excuses, but one of the main things they’re trying to change to salvage the game is raiding
2) Lotro, ABSOLUTELY EXPLICIT
3) GW2 – designed without exclusive raiding. Also, apparently poor dungeon participation and disbanded dungeon team.

~~~

I’ve been accused of being dismissive, and I want to be careful with that, but this really reads me as a case of you seeing what you want to see. There’s nothing that will convince you, but you’re only setting yourself up for an ugly reality check down the line.

GW2 doesnt count. It doesnt currently have any form of raids. Wildstar maybe changing raids to help salvage the game, i dont know anything about that. But i severely doubt their solution is to make it open world. So you still only have one example. Even accepting your examples, 3 is hardly a trend. You named 1 game which doesnt have raids in any form and 2 already released games which are suffering due to various reasons so some change is needed. But i havent seen any new under development MMO’s or other old MMO’s suddenly announcing there wont be any instanced content.

And if anything the recent complaints about living story, open world stuff not being enough and activity dropping severely before HoT was announced, suggests that people do want something different. To me that sounds like a lot of people do want instanced content.

I think its you who needs a reality check. Instanced content is not going to hurt the game but neglecting groups is. Most people would prefer anet to stop supporting PvP but thats not going to happen because its not beneficial to the game as a whole. Its the same with instanced stuff. Which is why it seems we are getting at the least some fractal attention in HoT. And i am hopeful of something else aswell based on the Raid CDI.

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

So you cherry picked one game? Its hardly a trend.

Wildstar was actually very successful with raiding. Its just the rest of the game was terrible. Which is the real cause of its failure. It could have worked if more effort was put into the rest. I mean a big part of raiding is having alts and if the leveling experience is crap then thats basically asking for failure.

I sourced 3 games, although I was being cute with 1.

1) Wildstar – People make excuses, but one of the main things they’re trying to change to salvage the game is raiding
2) Lotro, ABSOLUTELY EXPLICIT
3) GW2 – designed without exclusive raiding. Also, apparently poor dungeon participation and disbanded dungeon team.

~~~
I’ve been accused of being dismissive, and I want to be careful with that, but this really reads me as a case of you seeing what you want to see. There’s nothing that will convince you, but you’re only setting yourself up for an ugly reality check down the line.

You could have a look at how WoW has changed its system in the recent past by adding several difficulties to raids so that everyone can experience them, in term of story and armor skin.
They first introduced random raid and made it so everyone was able to set a foot in the content, this in turn made people who were scared by this part of the game to approach raiding guilds and join them.
Now they have non-fixed group size which makes people less stressed to “select” 10 or 25 people strictly. In the end, the devs are creating content for everybody and all players can find the right spot to play according to the dedication they are ready to put into the game.
Some games fail some don’t. If raid were coming in GW2 I would like to see them not fail and for that I think we as player are really responsible of how it will end.

Bernie.8674:

Brahmincorle.1264:

How about “B team”? My guild solved this problem by setting up the B team. This raid was for PvPers, alts, those who were not ready for A team yet and those (main characters) who did not made it that week into A team raid because it was full. Mains who would normaly be in A team but registered for raid too late had guaranteed spot in A team raid next week. And gues what… it worked perfectly.

It works perfectly for the guys on the A team. It’s absolutely demoralizing for the poor saps who are stuck in remedial raiding. On the other hand, it’s a great way to gear them up and beef up their chances of getting into a guild that’s not going to treat them like second class citizens. Hearing you talk so casually about creating an sub group in your guild that is dedicated to gearing your alts just makes me appreciate the fact that I don’t have to see crap like that in this game.

Dude what? Have you even read what I wrote?

Ranael.6423:

Some games fail some don’t. If raid were coming in GW2 I would like to see them not fail and for that I think we as player are really responsible of how it will end.

I’d also like to see it not fail if it happens, and I’d like to see people get the content they want (if it’s not too costly to others).

What I’d like and what I expect to happen are entirely different though, and I worry people talk themselves up.

Windsagio.1340:

1) Wildstar – People make excuses, but one of the main things they’re trying to change to salvage the game is raiding

wrong. the only thing they changed about raiding is making DS 40 to DS 20. why? because its almost impossible to find 40 players who dont suck, dont slack and try to improve constantly.

i dont really like it when people who probably havent even spent a single minute in wildstar claim stuff that is far away from reality.
wildstar did not “fail” (it didnt even fail, the devs said from the beginning they are not looking for and dont need millions of players) because of the “hard” dungeons or raids.

performance, itemization, bugs and lots of issues with pvp are the reasons. performance is actually a big part of it. i have an i5 4690k and a gtx 970 and while raiding DS 40 and sometimes in the open world i had less than 20 fps. people with worse hardware and especially the ones with AMD CPUs are even worse off than me.
and one part of the performance issues comes from terrible carbine addons like the inventory addon. there was a command line (or w/e that stuff is called) that makes your inventory update each time when your character stats are updated, which happens alot during combat and this eats alot of CPU power.

what if they fix all the bugs and issues (already happend with drop 4 and drop 4 numbers are not taken into account in the NCSoft numbers) and maybe even change their model from subscription to b2p and the population increases? will you “anti-raider” come out then and say “wildstars population increases because of raiding” ? no you wont.

but as soon as something is doing worse than predicted you always point to raiding?
LOL

please stop cherry picking stuff to prove something.

Windsagio.1340:

Looking at analogs in GW2: They’ve stopped development on dungeons and didn’t even touch fractals for almost a year (up to the current round of bugfixes). We don’t have Arenanet’s internals, but what would the reason be if it weren’t poor player participation?

thats cherry picking.
anet didnt not touch anything except living story for almost a year.

I did not like raids in Lord of the Rings online; it took 3 times as long to get enough people for the raid as it took to do the raid. Raids would be a waste.

Windsagio.1340:

Those are the things I’m basing it on.

If you’re going to start comparing things to other games, maybe you should also run your numbers on this little MMORPG called World of Warcraft.

promisebreaer.4967:

I did not like raids in Lord of the Rings online; it took 3 times as long to get enough people for the raid as it took to do the raid. Raids would be a waste.

so what you are saying is raids would be a waste because people are not efficient and have troubles with organisation? thats not a problem related to raids. its a problem related to the people you are playing with.

Nokaru.7831:

Windsagio.1340:

Those are the things I’m basing it on.

If you’re going to start comparing things to other games, maybe you should also run your numbers on this little MMORPG called World of Warcraft.

You mean that raid-heavy MMO where raiders are still a minority of players?

Nokaru.7831:

Windsagio.1340:

Those are the things I’m basing it on.

If you’re going to start comparing things to other games, maybe you should also run your numbers on this little MMORPG called World of Warcraft.

If you want to raid, that’s the place where they’re most heavily supporting it, so feel free.

Astralporing.1957:

Nokaru.7831:

Windsagio.1340:

Those are the things I’m basing it on.

If you’re going to start comparing things to other games, maybe you should also run your numbers on this little MMORPG called World of Warcraft.

You mean that raid-heavy MMO where raiders are still a minority of players?

this logic is wrong beause if you take any part of the game and players who are focusing primarily on this part, they will always be a minority compared to the rest of the player base.

What is WoW doing good is having bunch of options for everyone (pls we are talking about 2015 WoW, not 10 years ago WoW). If you make new dungeons your dungeon minority will be happy and keep spending money on your game. If you do the same for PvP comunity they will also be happy and keep spending etc. etc. etc. So now you have bunch of happy minorities and if you combine them together you have happy majority.

As a part of the dungeon loving minority in GW2 I am not happy right now.

I like how people try to use failed MMO as example of why raid is bad. I can play this game too. Look at games like WoW, FFXIV and Tera, all are very successful because of raids.

Lifestealer.4910:

I like how people try to use failed MMO as example of why raid is bad. I can play this game too. Look at games like WoW, FFXIV and Tera, all are very successful because of raids.

I would like to use Teq as a example why raid is bad.

Teq raid is basically 100 people stacking over each other to dps the boss down. Dungeon is no better.

10 man dungeon will end up the same way. It doesn’t matter how skilled the AI designer will be. At the end when everyone learns the run, it will always be stack, stack, stack.

Yes.More choices is always better than none.

Lifestealer.4910:

I like how people try to use failed MMO as example of why raid is bad. I can play this game too. Look at games like WoW, FFXIV and Tera, all are very successful because of raids.

It’s not that raids are bad per se, but rather that they’re not terribly played or a terribly good business decision to invest in..

Lifestealer.4910:

I like how people try to use failed MMO as example of why raid is bad. I can play this game too. Look at games like WoW, FFXIV and Tera, all are very successful because of raids.

The problem there is that one could just as easily claim that those games are successful in spite of having raids.

Ashen.2907:

Lifestealer.4910:

I like how people try to use failed MMO as example of why raid is bad. I can play this game too. Look at games like WoW, FFXIV and Tera, all are very successful because of raids.

The problem there is that one could just as easily claim that those games are successful in spite of having raids.

That logic can be applied for all the fail MMO’s that you mentioned.

Yes, if it comes with a good automatic “Group Finder” and has flexible rewards to fits everyone’s needs.

Lifestealer.4910:

Ashen.2907:

Lifestealer.4910:

I like how people try to use failed MMO as example of why raid is bad. I can play this game too. Look at games like WoW, FFXIV and Tera, all are very successful because of raids.

The problem there is that one could just as easily claim that those games are successful in spite of having raids.

That logic can be applied for all the fail MMO’s that you mentioned.

Honest question, what fail MMOs did I mention?

I am not saying that raiding is a bad thing. I am one of those on the side of the argument that a GW2 version of raiding that keeps to this game’s design philosophies could be a good thing.

Attempting to copy WoW or similar raiding here seems unlikely to succeed. Something like the Deep, Urgoz, DoA, UW, FoW from GW1, adapted to fit in here, perhaps designed to scale for varying part sizes, could be very fun.

Avster.1935:

Why are you so haunted by raids? It’s not going to be a conventional raid.

Before you reply, please read the previous posts that I’ve made on this thread. I’m naturally curious.

A valid question. Here’s the answer: World of Warcraft.

The raiding system created a culture of unbelievable elitism. Select ‘guilds’ would be dominated by a clique of people. They used the guild’s numbers to buffer their chances to attain shiny loot and bragging rights.

And once they got all that loot for themselves?

Move onto the next raiding content with new and better loot.

You can believe me when I tell you these people created an environment so toxic, so negative, it killed any future interest in raids. And then their drama spilled over into chat, forums, and other media.

Yes, I’m looking at you Argent Dawn and Blackrock.

Chest-thumping and ego-wrangling in public while butt-snorkling, to stay in the good graces of the clique, in private.

And for what? An electronic piece of armor, or whatnot, that doesn’t even exist.

No to raids. Ever. I don’t want to see that chaos, of the haves versus the have-nots, controlled by an elect few, in Guild Wars 2.

Bad enough some ‘commanders’ think they’re leadership material because they spent 100 gold . . . but that’s another topic.

I am simply amazed people saying “i like muh world bosses and champion trains”
your actions do not matter in the zerg, and guess what people want their actions to matter and seek a challenge too
which brings me to point 2: how often do you guys play the aetherpath in TA?
I can anticipate it’s not much, and I can tell you why – the difficulty is higher, and all you get in return are a couple of bent lockpicks form the aether-chests
GW2 needs some kind of high difficulty – high reward pve content, call it magic-group-adventure for all I care since people are so afraid of the word ‘raid’
I am sure people feel nice when they show off their dragon rank finishers in pvp, so why can’t we have something like that in pve
I never got into hardcore raiding in wow, but whenever I saw a guy with the Liberator of Orgrimmar title for example, I thought ‘nice this person has achieved something’; and whenever I see the be-all and the end-all title here I think “wow this person got lucky enough so those bosses spawned on his map”

KGS.9842:

I am simply amazed people saying “i like muh world bosses and champion trains”
your actions do not matter in the zerg, and guess what people want their actions to matter and seek a challenge too
which brings me to point 2: how often do you guys play the aetherpath in TA?
I can anticipate it’s not much, and I can tell you why – the difficulty is higher, and all you get in return are a couple of bent lockpicks form the aether-chests
GW2 needs some kind of high difficulty – high reward pve content, call it magic-group-adventure for all I care since people are so afraid of the word ‘raid’
I am sure people feel nice when they show off their dragon rank finishers in pvp, so why can’t we have something like that in pve
I never got into hardcore raiding in wow, but whenever I saw a guy with the Liberator of Orgrimmar title for example, I thought ‘nice this person has achieved something’; and whenever I see the be-all and the end-all title here I think “wow this person got lucky enough so those bosses spawned on his map”

Funny … look at the prices of the weapons you can get from aetherpath path ..
there is your high reward .. if you play it often enough to get one of those.

And hey .. that exactly is what i read hundreds of times from all those old GW1
players : Oh .. GW1 was soooo great .. we played zone X for 8 years again and
again .. just to get those special drops there.

So .. there you have exactly what “players” wanted .. challenge .. and the high reward
that motivates you to play the content forever .. at least if you believe what people
posts on the forums.

I meant a reward that is tied directly to your skill instead of luck; those were the two parts of the equations
challenge <—> reward; in this case it is
challenge <— lots of luck —> reward

KGS.9842:

I meant a reward that is tied directly to your skill instead of luck; those were the two parts of the equations
challenge <—> reward; in this case it is
challenge <— lots of luck —> reward

So .. the faster you can click your mouse the more gold you get ?
Because what is “skill” mostly in a game like GW2 ? You need to be fast on your mouse
and keyboard .. if your old and have never learned typing and thus are a mouse-clicker
you simply are less skilled.