Guild Wars 2

All that happens in your suggestion is that meta groups take four berserker’s and one healway guardian/water elementalist. Or five zerker warriors each running battle standard.

berserker/assassin meta is not the issue.
Unstoppable/unshakable/defiant is the issue. When you can’t stun them, interrupt; daze, confuse; knock back, knock down; immobilise, conditions stacks max quickly that only leaves one thing left..BERSERKER.

It’s like they took a monkey, a fish, a horse, a dog and goat and said, “To make this even we’ve given you all the same test..go climb that tree over there.”

TexZero.7910:

Remove Unshakeable and Defiant. Give boss encounters access to boons and conditions. …

You’d get permanently stunned bosses ganked by full berserker parties. Berserker still takes their health away the fastest.

Rezz.8019:

Zerker = high risk and high reward (timewise)
Defensive stuff = low risk and low reward (timewise)

Working as intended.

You lost me at ‘high risk’.
Unless we’re talking only about d/d eles, flamethrower engis, sw/d rangers, or d/d thieves who never swap weapon and have all offensive utilities on their bar. Then yeah, it is risky enough for the reward.
Everything else – including different builds on the professions above – is low/med risk high reward, as compared to non-zerker being low/med risk low reward.

I’m maining a zerk warrior myself in dungeons and low lvl fotm, don’t get me wrong. I’m far from being a zerker hater, or a ptv newbie who needs extra wheels to roll; way past that point.
I still wouldn’t mind any changes as i would simply adapt, and i do agree that the current meta in both PvE and WvW has got too stale to be as fun as it could be. PvP meta is broken, but at least not that stale and limited in builds.

Zerker gear is not the problem.

Poor dungeon and combat design is the problem.

How do you fix it?
You don’t! At some point during the development cycle, someone decided that the bosses in Guild Wars 2 should be no more challenging than a boss from Mega Man 2.

End the zerk meta, create a new meta. People who don’t want to use the optimal build cry about the new meta. And so it goes on and on and all the while those who have bothered to get ascended get the shaft each time.

If we suddenly arrive at a mixed group optimal meta (trinity style group) then people moan that their causal five man ranger group can’t do stuff and clamour for a change because they “can’t play how I want to play”.

I also gather that we will be nerfing/ending the PVT meta in W3 at the same time? Not only does it dominate the bulk of W3, it is also relatively strong in PVE. Quick nerf it into the ground, it’s just not fair!

JoxerNL.3752:

Harper.4173:

The issue here is that the casuals and bads will never complete content. Plus there’s the issue of dying in a dungeon.

So your saying everyone who isn’t in Zerker gear is either a casual or a bad?
Interesting.

I’m saying that regardless of their gear the casuals and bads will be excluded from dungeons by this change.
No – not all casuals and bads are " not in zerker gear " there’s quite a few of them in zerker.

I’m really not sure why people want to end the “meta”. There’s always a better way of doing something and it always goes that way. If you don’t want to follow the hip build Just don’t party with kittens and be happy. Get some friends.

The short of it is that I think ANet’s intent is different gear for different situations. Zerks in groups and dungeoning, while soloing have other, more viable options. P/V/T or T/V/CD for WvW, both powerful builds in their own right. The problem is, without being able to save/switch trait builds switching gear is a pain and requires a trip to a trainer, which isn’t worth the hassle, so people run less than optimal gear. What we really need is multiple gear/trait/slot-skill tabs, so multiple builds are more convenient.

drkn.3429:

You lost me at ‘high risk’.
Unless we’re talking only about d/d eles, flamethrower engis, sw/d rangers, or d/d thieves who never swap weapon and have all offensive utilities on their bar. Then yeah, it is risky enough for the reward.
Everything else – including different builds on the professions above – is low/med risk high reward, as compared to non-zerker being low/med risk low reward.

I’m maining a zerk warrior myself in dungeons and low lvl fotm, don’t get me wrong. I’m far from being a zerker hater, or a ptv newbie who needs extra wheels to roll; way past that point.
I still wouldn’t mind any changes as i would simply adapt, and i do agree that the current meta in both PvE and WvW has got too stale to be as fun as it could be. PvP meta is broken, but at least not that stale and limited in builds.

Zerk warrior is the easiest zerker class to play by a large margin. Try something like an ele or a thief. Preferably without guardians.

This idea wouldnt end the zerker meta but it is a great idea. They had this in gw1 and it made the dungeons much better. There should also be an entrance fee.

Judge Banks.9018:

Zerker gear is not the problem.

Poor dungeon and combat design is the problem.

How do you fix it?
You don’t! At some point during the development cycle, someone decided that the bosses in Guild Wars 2 should be no more challenging than a boss from Mega Man 2.

This.

Aeonblade.8709:

Heavy diminishing returns on stacking the same stats comes to mind. For instance, wearing 4 or more berserker items has 10% reduced stat threshold on each following berserker piece.

This would do 2 things, make people think about their characters beyond just stacking the most OP set currently in the game, and promote build diversity using multiple armor types. As it stands now, berserker gear just makes the game’s PvE the laughing stock of MMOs.

Further clarity: This diminishing return applies to all armor types, not just berserker. This way no one would want more than 4 pieces of the same type.

This is a silly idea – here’s why.
People would stack 4 x berserker pieces and 2x assassin pieces and that would become the new " zerker meta". You’d have fixed nothing.

The new Knight’s meta would probably be 4 x Knight’s +2 x Cavalier’s and so on.

You wouldn’t be promoting more builds.
For each class and each area of content there are OPTIMAL stat ratios.
Say for a speed clear of CoF P1 class x will optimally have y amount of toughness, z amount of power and q amount of precision.
You’ll just be making it more difficult for people to get to those values – but that’s what will happen and nothing you can do will change the fact that people will ALWAYS want the most bang for their buck.

Zerker will always be the meta because there is a huge imbalance between the different roles the 8 classes can do along with bad boss AI and design. Since GW2 doesnt use the cut and dry trinity system it did not get the fine tweaking it needed. This is why underwater combat is a disaster and they refuse to fix it because they don’t want to admit that they screwed up. Everything below zerker needs to be useful to the point its just as valuable.

We have DoT DPS that are shared by every class and is caped at 25 stacks or seconds between players. This was a huge mistake, the damage conditions should have been unique to certain classes or builds where you had to be heavily specced into it. Weapons, and easily accessible traits/sigils stack bleeds and thus a 40/sec bleed replaces a 140/sec because the zerk warrior cant help that his rifle 1 skill applies it everytime.

Healing is pitiful in this game. They made dodging everything since endurance recharges so fast. Aegis is also completely OP, can block 1 to infinite damage as it stands and any effects of the attack like conditions or CC. It doesn’t help that dungeon mobs can hit for 20-90% of your hp pool in successive hits while abilities heal 1-3k on 20 second CDs.

Tanking… it exists. High toughness is pretty high up there on the agro totem pole, close to DPS. Why isn’t it needed? Because proactive skills are broken and healing sucks.

Its pretty obvious why CC or debuffs aren’t used.

Their promise of any group setup can complete a dungeon is a flawed idea. They should have ditched it long ago with their other promises.

TL;DR: Their system has failed because they did not fine tweak it and left the dodge mechanic as a band aid just like defiant.

Fenrir.3609:

It isn’t the only build. It is the go to build for those players and groups capable of using it.

Exactly, it’s the build to go for capable people. There should be a variety of equal “top tier” stat sets, not just one.

That there are many non-zerker viable builds in WvW means that the problem is in poor mob design.

I understand that it’s cool to feel special about being the OP, but I don’t understand the reason for another thread on the same hot topic.

Ending zerker meta:
Join a role-playing guild.

Astralporing.1957:

Fenrir.3609:

It isn’t the only build. It is the go to build for those players and groups capable of using it.

Exactly, it’s the build to go for capable people. There should be a variety of equal “top tier” stat sets, not just one.

There will always be an optimal build/group comp that top trumps all others when used by a dedicated group within specific aspects of the game.

Many of those people moaning about zerk at the moment will simply moan about the new optimal set up. Even if the group comp contains a tank, healer and dps, people will moan because it is not their specific tank spec, or their specific healer spec, or their specific dps spec.

“OMG the fastest group needs a clerics guard and I’m an AH guard, it’s just not fair, nerf clerics!”

In short people will always moan that others are clearing content quicker then them due to the fact that those others have min/maxed whilst they stick to their own non optimal set up.

It doesn’t seem to cross peoples minds that if they want to be be “teh speed run” then they need to spec for the optimal build. Or if they don’t care about speed running, then it also doesn’t seem to cross their mind that they can simply form a non zerk group and get on with the content without worrying about the fact a gear ping group is clearing it a bit faster.

If there is the scenario that you simply cannot do certain content with a non zerk group (and it is not down to a lack of skill), well then the devs need to address said content and/or buff other sets. A nerf to zerk won’t do anyone any good.

The interesting thing is that in order to change the meta a large proportion of people keep banging on about nerfing zerker, instead of looking at ways of boosting the other builds. Which tells you something about their mind set really.

Flissy.4093:

Lenor.8197:

Bad people wearing PVT will still die.

No they won’t

Lol; awesome.

Also, when I’ve read “very stun much dislike not wow”, I had a good laugh xD.

I don’t know if you know this or not…. but the zerker meta has ALREADY BEEN NERFED!

gasp

That’s right.

The last time they reworked the downscaling it destroyed zerkers.

Any time a player with Power Precision Crit stats is scaled down…. They lose a huge chunk of their precision…. thereby making their crit dmg stat more difficult to be utilized…. but if that wasn’t bad enough…. the crit dmg itself is scaled down to the point of being almost absent.

If it were to be “fair” by any means… the percentage of crit damage (as well as precision) would remain absolutely the same since it is a percentage of the Base damage which is also reduced.

The only thing in power precision crit gear that remains useful is the power bonus.

And PVT armor works just as well for that.

The more you get scaled down…. the more everyone does the same amount of damage.

…and you only truly begin to notice the zerker stats working their magic the less you are scaled down.

Now…. this applies only to downscaling….

Which accounts for only 95% of the game.

…wait

95% of the game zerkers deal with being robbed of their stats?

That’s right.

…and the less you are scaled down from 80…. the more damage the enemies do to you…

So that means…. as you begin to finally reap the benefits of PPC gear…. you are risking more than ever, since the enemies are hitting you that much harder…. and have that much more health.

It is a skillful ability for players to use berzerker gear against foes that can kill you with one attack.

When your foe isn’t strong enough to pose a threat (when you are scaled down)… your ppc is also less effective and not overpowered.

Anet, I ask that you don’t punish players who are able to avoid taking damage through evades while encouraging more players to facetank.

If you are able to fight a level 80 legendary foe without getting hit…. maybe you need to rework you enemy AI. What difference does it make how long it takes you to kill an enemy with over inflated hp if you can evade every single one of its attacks?

If you want to lower the amount of players running berzerker gear…. lower the insane amounts of health you have given to the foes we fight.

Buff the game’s overlooked/broken and next to useless condition damage (pve).

Do something BESIDES nerf berzerker.

Apparently it wasn’t enough, since Berserker is still used more often than all other options combined.

PvE is in desperate need of reworking, Beserker is a fun playstyle the first few times running through something but after a while it gets so painfully boring just stacking in corners blowing stuff up, its probably the main reason why 90% of the bosses in this game have a zillion hp. I haven’t ran a dungeon in months for this reason, its just boring.

Guild Wars 2 Dungeons = stacking in a corner to win the game.

HykCraft.4610:

Guild Wars 2 Dungeons = stacking in a corner to win the game.

Do you blame this on people doing maximum possible damage or poor enemy AI?

The scaling isn’t that bad. Compare to what the armor at that level has, not the loss in your stat %

why does it even matter? You still are going to wear berserker for doing map completion or dungeon etc.

Because the pve game is so easy. It is pointless to wear anything other than berserker.

Downscaling has been a complete disaster. Your build can behave completely differently when downscaled (especially if you rely on crits to proc traits/food/etc.). Of course, that’s negated by the fact that you’re basically one-shotting everything in lower levels. In any case, these two make lower level play completely unfun.

Perhaps Anet should just convert everything to level 80 and have lower level players upleveled in every area (not a great solution, but easy to implement).

Frostpyro.5942:

The solution to this has already been discussed in many topics. ArenaNet needs to have mobs attack more frequently rather than in huge chunks. The reason we run berserkers gear is because there is NO need for survivability if we can dodge 99% of the abilities and attacks. Anything we cant dodge we can blind, reflect, or block. For us to stack toughness and vitality atm would just be kind of pointless in PvE to be honest.

What if every 100 points in toughness over 1216 increased your maximum endurance pool?
What if every 100 points in vitality over 1216 increased endurance regeneration?
Would that be enough to entice people out of zerker gear? The theory being that defense stats don’t really improve your survivability once you know when/how to dodge. So lets give defensive stats real survivability though dodging.

Name in use already.7294:

I just thought of an idea that I feel would immediately stop the zerker meta without having to nerf or buff anything.

What problem are we trying to solve? “Zerk or GTFO”? You’ll just move it to whatever type becomes fashionable next.

The solution is to create AI that counters the zerker playstyle.

That is the most fundamental thing A-net needs to do. Everything else, in terms of stats, follows from this.

Folks who claim that zerker is high risk = high reward are kidding just about everyone: they only run in groups that minimise the risk, because that is a low-risk, high-reward strategy. Playing in a mixed-stat group is much more high-risk, which is why they hate it.

Change the AIs and other things to make it high-risk and make glass cannons actually play like glass, and the complaints will flood in, but at least you can quote right back at them: high risk = high reward, right?

this is why you shouldnt put all your eggs in one basket

TheBlackLeech.9360:

HykCraft.4610:

Guild Wars 2 Dungeons = stacking in a corner to win the game.

Do you blame this on people doing maximum possible damage or poor enemy AI?

Who said anything about blame? I never did. Just stating the obvious.

HykCraft.4610:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

HykCraft.4610:

Guild Wars 2 Dungeons = stacking in a corner to win the game.

Do you blame this on people doing maximum possible damage or poor enemy AI?

Who said anything about blame? I never did. Just stating the obvious.

I’m just wondering how that remark relates to this topic.

“All the things you love about GW1”
Aha
Ahahahahahaha

this isn’t a solution anyway. it doesn’t address the problem at all. this ‘solution’ is analogous to saying “killing someone will get rid of their cancer or other fatal disease”. not trying to be crude but doing away with the rez system isn’t gonna stop zerkers and directing it at only dungeons causes even MORE problems. ‘ideas’ like this is why they got rid of the ‘Suggestions Sub’ in the first place imo tbh

TheBlackLeech.9360:

HykCraft.4610:

Guild Wars 2 Dungeons = stacking in a corner to win the game.

Do you blame this on people doing maximum possible damage or poor enemy AI?

I blame it on AN.

Issues with AI behavior and mechanics that cause the “DPS meta” aside, this does seem unfair. Why should critical chance and damage take more of a hit than toughness, vitality, and healing power when downscaled?

At least, they don’t nerf the effects of those SUPERIOR sigils and runes that you’re most likely using in those low level areas. At least, they don’t nerf the effects of those GRANDMASTER traits that you’re most likely using in those low level areas. Also, it’s ok to note that gear on par with those lower levels doesn’t even have access to +Crit Dam at all so that’s another thing to consider. I also find it very hard to believe that you are skilled enough to run zerker gear in these ‘difficult’ high level areas but are often getting ‘one-shotted’ by moas and such in starter zones. O.o The +Crit Dam is only slightly out of balance compared to other stats in the lower level areas ONLY b/c you can’t have +4.29% Crit Dam (just an example.) I’m POSITIVE your level 80 WARRIOR isn’t having as tough of a time in Queensdale as you make it out to be.

It would be easier to just introduce mechanics that zerker can’t survive.

timidobserver.7925:

It would be easier to just introduce mechanics that zerker can’t survive.

and it wouldn’t be completely ludicrous to see and hear EVERYWHERE that zerker is the only way to go (ie. LFG Zerker Only) and then turn around and see QQ threads about how zerker is getting the ‘short end’ or somehow worthless in comparison to other specs. LMAO. Which is it really!?!

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Do you blame this on people doing maximum possible damage or poor enemy AI?

I blame it on a false dichotomy.

They should make condition the leading dmg dealers. Since they are capped anyways you only need 1 or 2 in a group and zerkers are still needed for additional dmg. Since dmg is OP now it makes other classes more viable as well.

Majic.4801:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Do you blame this on people doing maximum possible damage or poor enemy AI?

I blame it on a false dichotomy.

It’s not a false dichotomy. You simply read and interpreted the question differently than the way I intended.

I was asking if he blamed it on either thing.

Its a yes or no question.

Not that he had to choose one or the other.

In gw2 all the mobs agro the one with the higher toughnes, I have a toon with the highest toughness possibile(I think) and in www soon as I get near to a camp all the mobs jump on me, even if there are ppl in camp kill them and I did not hit any of them.

so I’m guessing the shift this to zerkers, the mobs will agro zerkers or something… dunno. This scenario will be no need for any nerfs, buffs, or any crap what ppl panic about

TheBlackLeech.9360:

HykCraft.4610:

Guild Wars 2 Dungeons = stacking in a corner to win the game.

Do you blame this on people doing maximum possible damage or poor enemy AI?

Both because anytime a “fix stacking” thread pops up, people defend stacking and ridicule the OP and the poor enemy AI makes it possible for stacking in the first place.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

It’s not a false dichotomy. You simply read and interpreted the question differently than the way I intended.

I was asking if he blamed it on either thing.

Its a yes or no question.

Not that he had to choose one or the other.

It is, by definition, a false dichotomy. It is also not a yes or no question, since neither answer would resolve the dichotomy.

However, I can say…

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Do you blame this on people doing maximum possible damage or poor enemy AI?

No.

Please understand: I’m not saying the argument in the OP is invalid, or that I even disagree with it, just that this particular question literally does not make sense — and indeed, it actually derails your own thread.

Tman.6349:

At least, they don’t nerf the effects of those SUPERIOR sigils and runes that you’re most likely using in those low level areas. At least, they don’t nerf the effects of those GRANDMASTER traits that you’re most likely using in those low level areas.

They do not nerf the effect of anyone’s grandmaster traits…. zerk or non…. I don’t understand what you are getting at.

Tman.6349:

Also, it’s ok to note that gear on par with those lower levels doesn’t even have access to +Crit Dam at all so that’s another thing to consider.

Once again…. you don’t have access to say… three stat gear with power precision AND crit….. but you don’t get power toughness vitality gear either….
But those don’t get the same harsh downscaling as crit dmg.

Tman.6349:

I also find it very hard to believe that you are skilled enough to run zerker gear in these ‘difficult’ high level areas but are often getting ‘one-shotted’ by moas and such in starter zones.

You must fail at reading comprehension since I said the exact opposite.
I said that everyone is almost equal in a starter zone…. and when you are not downscaled at all you are a glass cannon.

Tman.6349:

O.o The +Crit Dam is only slightly out of balance compared to other stats in the lower level areas ONLY b/c you can’t have +4.29% Crit Dam (just an example.) I’m POSITIVE your level 80 WARRIOR isn’t having as tough of a time in Queensdale as you make it out to be.

You should continue to crit in Queensdale at the same percent of the time as you do in Orr, and should still keep the same crit dmg % of your base dmg percentage as well.

I think you fail to understand that your base damage is what is used in calculating the damage you deal when you critical hit…. It does not make sense to penalize both.

If I have 1,000 base dmg and +100% crit in Orr against a foe that has 100,000 health
It will take 50 strikes to defeat the foe.

Divide everything by 10

I have 100 base dmg and 10% crit in a low level area… against a foe that has 10,000 health…

It will take 90 strikes to defeat the foe.

And thats assuming you are going to crit 100% of the time in both cases…. which WILL NOT HAPPEN because guess what?

Your precision (crit chance) gets hit too.

Give bosses a condition type similar to chill that reduces endurance refill speed by 200% and slows movement speed by 33%