Guild Wars 2

So there is a reason why events are as easy as they are.

let’s think of pros and cons of easy events and the same for challenging events. What can Anet do to make more challenging content for people who wish for it without hurting the causual crowd.
1.) list pro and con of easy and challenging content
2.) share your thoughts of what Anet could do or not do

I’ll make a start

easy content
+ ) everyone has access to all content
+ ) it’s not frustrating because dying is rare
+ ) you can regularly participate in loot-distribution by chests
- ) it’s pretty much faceroll for good players —> the game becomes boring fast
- ) loot isn’t that good because it’s easy to achieve

challenging content
+ ) it’s a challenge where you can grow on becoming a better player
- ) frustrating for bad players

what can be done
Thats a difficult question. GW1 had a hardmode for the elite of the players. GW1 had instanced zones though so it wouldn’t work in GW2 to spawn difficult creatures in the world around you since every kind of player will be around you.

what do you guys think?

That’s why hard mode should be added to dungeons. Unfortunately, Anet tried this and found out that now that they’ve made AC harder, all the people in favor of harder content seem to have vanished.

People say they want challenging content, but by percentage, most people want challenging content that gives them better loot than any other area of the game. Take away the loot and you take away the drive to do the content.

which seems understandable… you need a reward for your hard work. Last time I fought against veterans in Orr and got not even a grey drop I was pretty frustrated. There needs to be a balance for risk-reward. RNG for the chance of better loot isn’t that rewarding in that particular situation.

Vayne.8563:

That’s why hard mode should be added to dungeons. Unfortunately, Anet tried this and found out that now that they’ve made AC harder, all the people in favor of harder content seem to have vanished.

People say they want challenging content, but by percentage, most people want challenging content that gives them better loot than any other area of the game. Take away the loot and you take away the drive to do the content.

Risk versus reward.

Anything that you do that is easy can be repeated without failure. This is why the reward must be much lower than something that is difficult. The higher the difficulty the more likely you are to fail; even on repeated attempts. Failure rewards you with nothing; that is the risk you take.

More risk more profit; less risk less profit.

And this lack of better items is killing hardmodes. Why should I try to run AC for several hours, when i can achieve the same in a fast run in another dungeon?

From that point I like the idea of an item-threadmill but not such as in WoW. Anet could try to make special stats mixes on such hardmode content which cannot be crafted or achieved in other dungeons.

For instance they could try to introduce a fire protection which can only be found in one hardmode dungeon but it is only available when a whole set is equipped. So you can have a fire resistance but are still vulnerable against all other elements.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

do you guys think?

I think the most challenging content has to be restricted to instanced encounters. In open world you always have the problem of scaling, where freeloaders and the inexperienced can quickly cause problems for systems that try to increase the difficulty based on the number of players. It is nearly impossible to control.

Another more fundamental problem is that the current game meta/mechanics is shallow and renders virtually all content easy. The only “difficult” content in this game consists of one-shot AOE circles that must be dodged or hp sponges that must be whittled down over the course of a five minute dps spam. You cannot create truly difficult and interesting content around invulnerability frames.

Mechanics need to be overhauled in order for truly difficult content to be created. There have been some fantastic suggestions on this front, such as the addition of a complex set of buffs/debuff cycles, but no indication ArenaNet is interested in taking them seriously. After all, they have no monetary incentive to develop difficult content as the overwhelming majority of those who use the cash shop are casuals.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

do you guys think?

You cannot create truly difficult and interesting content around invulnerability frames.

I disagree.

I’m sure they can create an NPC that one shots you with his club. The timing of your dodge has to be perfect. Too soon or too late and your dead. Add in a fake swing ability to fool the player into dodging early and you can create difficult content that demands precision, timing and awareness.

Vayne.8563:

People say they want challenging content, but by percentage, most people want challenging content that gives them better loot than any other area of the game.

This is true, and it’s also the launching point for another problem. Unless all eight professions are perfectly balanced for PvE (an impossibility) then some players, regardless of skill, might be shunned by those wanting to run the more difficult content based solely on their character’s profession.

Calae.1738:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

do you guys think?

You cannot create truly difficult and interesting content around invulnerability frames.

I disagree.

I’m sure they can create an NPC that one shots you with his club. The timing of your dodge has to be perfect. Too soon or too late and your dead. Add in a fake swing ability to fool the player into dodging early and you can create difficult content that demands precision, timing and awareness.

I had two conditions: difficult and interesting. This is interesting? This sounds as fun as scripted ambushes in FPS games with checkpoints, minus the checkpoints.

Unless I am missing your sarcasm…in which case, good show!

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Calae.1738:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

do you guys think?

You cannot create truly difficult and interesting content around invulnerability frames.

I disagree.

I’m sure they can create an NPC that one shots you with his club. The timing of your dodge has to be perfect. Too soon or too late and your dead. Add in a fake swing ability to fool the player into dodging early and you can create difficult content that demands precision, timing and awareness.

I had two conditions: difficult and interesting. This is interesting? This sounds as fun as scripted ambushes in FPS games with checkpoints, minus the checkpoints.

Unless I am missing your sarcasm…in which case, good show!

If you want to have an argument over what is interesting and what isn’t then we’re going to go around in circles forever.

What makes someone more skilled than another is his quick reflexes, reaction time and decision making. Making the right decision in a split second. The more time you give someone to make a decision the easier the problem is to solve.

I’d like it if they added in special challenges to the dungeons, and had each give a small achievement when completed.

Let’s say they add 5 such challenges to each dungeon. One could be to clear it at a -5 (give or take) level penalty. One could be to clear it with waypoint rezzing disabled. The other three could vary by dungeon.

Complete all 5 for one dungeon? You get a title that shows you’ve mastered it. “Keeper of the Crypts” for AC, perhaps. You can also complete related ones for all the dungeons to get another title. Clear them all without waypoint rezzing, and maybe you’ll get the “Forgot to Wipe” title. (Okay, maybe something with a bit more class than that.)

This would give people something to show off for doing “hard mode”, but it’s not a reward that boosts power. Might not be for everyone, but some people would consider it a goal worth shooting for.

Calae.1738:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Calae.1738:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

do you guys think?

You cannot create truly difficult and interesting content around invulnerability frames.

I disagree.

I’m sure they can create an NPC that one shots you with his club. The timing of your dodge has to be perfect. Too soon or too late and your dead. Add in a fake swing ability to fool the player into dodging early and you can create difficult content that demands precision, timing and awareness.

I had two conditions: difficult and interesting. This is interesting? This sounds as fun as scripted ambushes in FPS games with checkpoints, minus the checkpoints.

Unless I am missing your sarcasm…in which case, good show!

If you want to have an argument over what is interesting and what isn’t then we’re going to go around in circles forever.

What makes someone more skilled than another is his quick reflexes, reaction time and decision making. Making the right decision in a split second. The more time you give someone to make a decision the easier the problem is to solve.

I doubt what MMORPG players have in mind for meaningful, challenging content is a set of tests centered around “split second” decisions, the outcome of which depends on your innate reflexes. The FPS scene is that way →→→

If ArenaNet implements your suggestion, do you think any significant portion of the population desiring harder content will be satisfied?

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Calae.1738:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Calae.1738:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

do you guys think?

You cannot create truly difficult and interesting content around invulnerability frames.

I disagree.

I’m sure they can create an NPC that one shots you with his club. The timing of your dodge has to be perfect. Too soon or too late and your dead. Add in a fake swing ability to fool the player into dodging early and you can create difficult content that demands precision, timing and awareness.

I had two conditions: difficult and interesting. This is interesting? This sounds as fun as scripted ambushes in FPS games with checkpoints, minus the checkpoints.

Unless I am missing your sarcasm…in which case, good show!

If you want to have an argument over what is interesting and what isn’t then we’re going to go around in circles forever.

What makes someone more skilled than another is his quick reflexes, reaction time and decision making. Making the right decision in a split second. The more time you give someone to make a decision the easier the problem is to solve.

I doubt what MMORPG players have in mind for meaningful, challenging content is a set of tests centered around “split second” decisions, the outcome of which depends on your innate reflexes. The FPS scene is that way ->->->

If ArenaNet implements your suggestion, do you think any significant portion of the population desiring harder content will be satisfied?

I’m taking about putting the dodge mechanic to good use. How many MMO’s have you played that has a dodge feature?

The less forgiving you make NPC’s and the more emphasis you place on the dodge mechanic; the greater the difference you’ll see in player skill. This will allow developers to create content that is tuned for players that have to react very quickly. It’s like keeping your head cool and maneuvering correctly to avoid a car crash.

if the hard content concentrates to much on dodge not only does that leave necro’s as useless (no way to get vigor, block or invulnerability skills), but that would also make most builds useless.
already most people accept berserker gear only and that would just make it much more so if they just increase the damage of all the mobs. to make content hard they need to come up with creative mechanics that are hard to master with only a little required dodge

It’s not how often you can use dodge that makes you more skilled; it’s how well you use it.

If dodge has a 10 second recharge and the NPC swings his 1 shot kill attack every 2 seconds; that developer needs to get a clue and go back to school.

Calae.1738:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

do you guys think?

You cannot create truly difficult and interesting content around invulnerability frames.

I disagree.

I’m sure they can create an NPC that one shots you with his club. The timing of your dodge has to be perfect. Too soon or too late and your dead. Add in a fake swing ability to fool the player into dodging early and you can create difficult content that demands precision, timing and awareness.

Split second dodging or die in a game that has some of the worst lag spikes, skill lag and camera control I’ve witnessed… no thanks.

Hardcore server is the obvious answer.

With the option of entering “PVP MODE”, kindda like costume brawl but the real deal.
And way more aggressive mobs, increease aggro range and all that
Also high end mobs need to pretty much one shot you.

A good example are the profession practice NPCS on the mists. Make us fight a group of 20 of those guys, mixed classes. That would be some entertaining PvE

Guess we will be forced to play sissy mode forever tho

Palador.2170:

I’d like it if they added in special challenges to the dungeons, and had each give a small achievement when completed.

Let’s say they add 5 such challenges to each dungeon. One could be to clear it at a -5 (give or take) level penalty. One could be to clear it with waypoint rezzing disabled. The other three could vary by dungeon.

I really like this idea, but I would love to see such a thing in the open world. Like you talk to this NPC who gives you these certain challenges for a whole zone. If you complete all of them, he becomes an Elite-Karma-Vendor with zone-specific skins.

challenges could be

• do the meta-event chain while having a permanent bleed debuff and get a gold medal without being killed. Once killed, the challenge resets.

(NPC-lines: Hey traveller. The ghosts of Ascalon are gathering! Search out and destroy their central gathering points. You have to kill Siegemaster Lormar in order to end this madness. Watch out though – the seperatists have sent an assassin to kill our heroes while they are distracted, they might try it in your mission.)
(in the action: when the meta-event starts you’ll get attacked by the assassin. He wounds you and you’ll have the bleed debuff from now on. Kill the assassin and then finish the meta-event, to beat the challenge).

The challenges get unlocked once you have map-completion on that map. You’ll need to start the challenge by talking to the npc. The challenge is on as long as you’re on that map.

Calae.1738:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Calae.1738:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Calae.1738:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

do you guys think?

You cannot create truly difficult and interesting content around invulnerability frames.

I disagree.

I’m sure they can create an NPC that one shots you with his club. The timing of your dodge has to be perfect. Too soon or too late and your dead. Add in a fake swing ability to fool the player into dodging early and you can create difficult content that demands precision, timing and awareness.

I had two conditions: difficult and interesting. This is interesting? This sounds as fun as scripted ambushes in FPS games with checkpoints, minus the checkpoints.

Unless I am missing your sarcasm…in which case, good show!

If you want to have an argument over what is interesting and what isn’t then we’re going to go around in circles forever.

What makes someone more skilled than another is his quick reflexes, reaction time and decision making. Making the right decision in a split second. The more time you give someone to make a decision the easier the problem is to solve.

I doubt what MMORPG players have in mind for meaningful, challenging content is a set of tests centered around “split second” decisions, the outcome of which depends on your innate reflexes. The FPS scene is that way ->->->

If ArenaNet implements your suggestion, do you think any significant portion of the population desiring harder content will be satisfied?

I’m taking about putting the dodge mechanic to good use. How many MMO’s have you played that has a dodge feature?

The less forgiving you make NPC’s and the more emphasis you place on the dodge mechanic; the greater the difference you’ll see in player skill. This will allow developers to create content that is tuned for players that have to react very quickly. It’s like keeping your head cool and maneuvering correctly to avoid a car crash.

A one-shot mechanic is not the answer. But it should be punishing.

Amun Ra.6435:

A one-shot mechanic is not the answer. But it should be punishing.

I agree, difficulty should have a tension which is built up. So that you slowly experience the feeling of losing control – and then have the chance to prove yourself by fighting back with all your heart so that you turn the table.

Like fighting against an enemy who drains your life via minions and you kill those minions fast enough so that he can’t spawn more of those. The mob who spawns the minions could be interrupted so teamwork would help: one interrupts so that no new minions spawn (which drain your life and heal the master) while the others kill the minions.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Amun Ra.6435:

A one-shot mechanic is not the answer. But it should be punishing.

I agree, difficulty should have a tension which is built up. So that you slowly experience the feeling of losing control – and then have the chance to prove yourself by fighting back with all your heart so that you turn the table.

Too slow and it’s too easy. The more time you give people to solve a problem the easier it is to solve it.

A jumping puzzle with time limits is a very basic and very good example. The player has to practice. Practice to perfection. That’s the extreme difficult scenario. You can always tweak things a little to allow for a certain number of player mistakes.

The best rewards should demand near flawless perfection.

Calae.1738:

The best rewards should demand near flawless perfection.

I disagree. When I think of a decent very difficult game I always think of Dark Souls. There are so much occasions when the bokittens me and I lose half my life. This is the Moment it gets tense. I’m not one-hit, I still have a chance but I know the next hit will kill me. Instantkills are just frustrating.

Enemies should be big like in F&F so that you can see their motions despite the particle effects.

I don’t agree with one-shot mechanics for everyone…I DO agree that it would be interesting if the situation did a one-shot on zerker sets. So unless you are great at dodging, zerker will not be the way to go. However, during the Weapons Test in Molten Facility, your damage output largely did not matter. So it would be good if damage did matter, so it didn’t reward “trivializing” the situation by stacking vitality and toughness. Use the “stressed” condition from the Weapons Test in Molten Facility to stop the players from switching armor between phases, if it is set up that way.

Other interesting mechanics to consider, that can be used to make a fight more challenging, already appear in other parts of the game. For instance, the burning oil in the dredge fractal. Spice that up a bit by adding something like the “Get out of the frog’s mouth” mechanic from Big Mayana, the Guild Bounty (if you’re unfamiliar with this, if the enemy hits you with a tongue attack, it “eats” you. Your skills are locked out. Then for a short window you are presented with skills 1-5, one escapes, the others lead to damage. So you have to be quick! ) What if you had to manage that puzzle to pour the oil, instead of just hitting a lever? This kind of puzzle would fit into other ways to make bosses vulnerable.

Another interesting mechanic would be the “bell hero” event from Wintersday, where the higher the team score applies conditions to the boss that makes the fight easier.

One more would be a jumping section like the harpies in the fractals, where you would have to jump from platform to platform to avoid attacks.

These would be reasonable ways, I think, to make more challenging bosses without it requiring the boss to be a damage sponge. I like dodging one shots, but there’s a lot more to the game than just dodging!

Hardcore server? Sounds interesting enough.

I was looking through my old GW1 UW screenshots, and I doubt ANet will ever be able to recreate anything similar to in in GW2.

Yes you can argue UW wasn’t all that hard after you mastered it, however, at least there was a learning curve unlike in GW2.

People had to work together, each player had their role and if one player failed, the whole team was kicked out of the instance.

Anyways, that’s just me rambling and being disappointed.

Another piece of this dilemma:

How does a player new to the game progress from basic (might as well be EQ or WoW) use of abilities, through understanding movement, fields and finishers, and finessing spec and gear, to being able to learn these new mechanics?

There are already encounters which existing players have mastered to such an extent their mechanics won’t even be visible to a new player, and thus the new player won’t even know about them much less learn them. Just look around Orr.

Dismissing people who’ve never had the ability to see, much less learn, a mechanic as scrubs simply slams the door on new players learning enough to join the elite…it might even slam the door on new players finding out that they have something more to learn, and leave them excluded without any hint as to why.

Which is bad for business. Remember a decade ago how EQ was basically giving the game away, had a stream of new players coming in, but couldn’t retain them? A solo player new to the game, with no mentoring (and possibly even with mentoring given game design features GW2 does not share), simply couldn’t catch up with the bulk of players. As an outsider, my perception was that EQ essentially lost its ability to retain new players within a year of release. That was really, really bad for business.

Back to the original topic of this thread: I think the game design challenge is to create instanced encounters (where the group of players taking on the encounter is self selected and can exclude people of insufficient skill) which are arbitrarily hard.

And to create open world encounters with these properties:

1. A random person walking up and joining the encounter, with no prior knowledge of the encounter or its mechanics, will not single handedly cause the encounter to fail. This is essential to GW2 because as soon as players in learning mode are taught not to approach encounters with which they are not familiar, they cannot progress.

2. A random person who is at level and reasonably geared for that level is not prevented from navigating a zone by an encounter they cannot evade or complete. Put champions in their own sub zones, or patrolling in a way that can be easily avoided, not guarding the only portal from Malchor’s Leap to Cursed Shore.

3. A random person who is at level and reasonably geared and running a computer at the minimum specs for the game can observe, between their combat log and what they can see on their screen both before they were one shotted and while lying dead afterward, enough to progress in understanding the mechanics of the encounter. Remember, after this learning process the encounter is a matter of simple execution. Experienced players seem to rapidly forget what it’s like to not know the encounters. I happen to be one of the people who does not observe as well, and learns encounters slower, than the best players in the game. (Although switching to a higher resolution screen helped my ability to observe immensely.)

I’ve observed a number of earlier debates, and a number of suggestions, which are focused on the needs and abilities of those who learned all the encounters in GW2 long ago, and who have evolved their playing skill (particularly around defensive movement including dodging) to the point where defensive stats are almost unimportant in their spec and gear. This is the elite.

I think it ArenaNet needs to build closed content focused on this group of people, but limit open world content to that which will help newer players learn evolve toward the elite level of skill.

Well, almost. It would be good to have some open world dragons (champion mobs which it is aspirational for a world/server/shard to have downed), located remotely (you go there because you want to go there, don’t stumble across it by accident), which meet only #1 and #2 above but are challenging for everyone and impossible for non elite players (ie doesn’t have to meet #3).

Remove/Modify Magic Find + Insert a button to downlevel our characters and give us better loot = Hard Mode

Erick Alastor.3917:

Remove/Modify Magic Find + Insert a button to downlevel our characters and give us better loot = Hard Mode

The drop-able/chest loot in this game is a laugh. No matter how difficult or long I spend killing a vet/champ (especially on my own) there is hardly anything worth writing home about, if I get anything at all. It’s obvious, they want us to buy things off the trading post with real money from RNG chests because that is where the good loot is (if you roll that 0.0000001% ticket).

It appears to me that to work hard at beating a difficult enemies is not how they designed loot distribution. If they changed the system to reward hard work to the scale of the challenge I would love them to bring on 100× more difficult challenges because then it would be worth it. But at the moment there is no loot on offer that is worth a > 10 minute battle, you’re better off farming SS for shells and powerful blood then buying your items off the trading post with the profits.

It’s not a difficult dilemma at all.
Gw1 achieved it. Simple mobs in very early prophecies were challenging, even beginner areas like Diessa Lowlands and Anvil Rock! When playing in those areas you’re still a low-level newbie… yet monsters were smart and lots of fun!
Gw2 can do it too.

It doesn’t have to be in instances only. It can be in the open world too.

Thing is, the game doesn’t teach you how to fight. That needs to change.

In beta everyone was forcefully Downed in the tutorial, so people could learn their downed skills in a safe environment.

Now, no one dies in tutorial. Now, when you die, it’s in a dangerous situation and it’s the first time you realize you get Downed, not Killed. Your skill bar changes and you have no clue what’s going on.
You never have a safe environment to learn your Downed skills!

It would be good to have that back in the tutorial. It’s a safe place to learn the downed mechanic and the skills.

Improve enemy AI
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Monster_AI
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guide_to_hard_mode#Enemies
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Anti-caster
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Anti-melee

If concepts are introduced slowly and one at a time, eventually all players will be skilled enough that Lv 60-80 areas can be “Hard Mode” and they’ll be able to do it.

Monsters already gain abilities depending on the number of players. If necessary, they could make the enemies “dumb” when there’s only one low-level player engaging it, and make it smarter the more players there are.

The important thing is to introduce only one concept at a time. One from 1-10, another from 10-15, and every 5 levels from then. At level 30, they can have more than one or two concepts.

Ofcourse, if you’re a high-level player going solo in a beginner area, the enemies could scale to have more mechanics. Then if a low-level player joins the fight, the enemy should keep focusing the high-level player, this way the high level player still has fun, but the low level player is safe as he learns the game.

Gw1 Crystal Dessert missions taught different mechanics.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Random_Arena#Annihilation_with_Priest
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/King_of_the_Hill
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Snare_(tactic)#Application_by_game_type

Hell, I’d say all missions in Gw1 prophecies taught different concepts! The end of Thunderhead Keep is so awesome! You had no CHOICE but to learn to cooperate.

Lots of those mechanics can be included as part of dynamic events.

In the tutorial (and 1-10 dynamic events), there could be some sub-dynamic event that teach how to fight skillfully. It doesn’t have to be obnoxious, just once in a while.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Instructor_Ng
Look at his quests that teach mechanics. These can be part of beginner events.

For example, if we are given certain starting weapons, we might be asked to do certain things with certain skills:
Guardian – Flashing Blade – blind
Engineer – Static shot – blind
Warrior – Counterblow – block
Mesmer – Illusionary Counter - block
Thief – lotus strike – the enemy is going to heal, poison him so he can’t heal as much
Ranger – Winter’s bite – enemy with swiftness is going to call for reinforcements, slow him so he can’t make it there
Necromancer – Dagger – Immobilize (same as above)
Elementalist – phoenix – Logan is crippled and can’t retreat, remove his crippled condition so he can run away

Anet could program the game so certain conditions trigger certain sub-events, and if you do it you get a little reward (a little XP or copper). Basically it pops up for 3-5 seconds then goes away whether you did it or not.

These sub-events could have conditions so it only gives the quest to players under Lv 15 or 20 (so if you’re a 80 playing in beginner area, you don’t get annoyed by these)

Encourage skill chaining.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Skill_chaining

Then towards Lv 15-20 it can include cross profession stuff (and I don’t mean combos…!)
Examples:
The other player is downed, cast a protective spell or heal on him, or stun/blind enemies around him.
The other player got knocked down and is in trouble, blast enemies away from him.

Dynamic events could have a main objective, and a more difficult Bonus objective like Gw1 prophecies missions.
The event will still complete and be successful if players complete the main objective, but more skilled players could do the bonus objective for more challenge.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_Prophecies_missions_and_primary_quests
Each mission has different bonus quests to do. Anet can look at it for inspiration on how to adapt them to events.

Give sub-events that reward other things: protect the other player or npc as it runs the “flag”. Reward based on other things except DPS.
The game can assign sub-events only to certain players, so each player have different tasks to do.

Apply these mini-game concepts to quests, with players vs a enemy team.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Minigame

It can be either themed for the mini game, or make it fit the theme of the event you’re doing.

Give enemies ability to heal, remove conditions, give stability, etc. Have them fight close to each other so they can protect each other.
Here are different styles of protection:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Protection#Protting_in_a_Nutshell
In more difficult areas, one enemy could attempt to knockdown/knockback/daze/blind players who try to attack the “healer” enemy.

It would be good if you could call targets for nearby players even if you’re not in a party.

Remove HP sponges to 1/3 of their current health.
It’s boring and stupid, you autoattack and alt-tab to watch a movie on youtube.

Remove enemy ability to kill with one shot.
Remove stupid defiant and invulnerabilities, it’s as if nothing matters except DPSing!
Have enemies try to interrupt your heal or your elite, kick you out of support rings,

Simple skills should have very very simple animations, barely noticeable. Dangerous skills will then become easier to see and evade.

Another issue is that you don’t know what skills the enemy uses. Unless you’ve played every profession and know the animations because you have read your skills.
It would help a lot if enemies had a skill monitor like Gw1, so you know what the skills do.

You can’t rely on animations because you can’t see anything, there are too many skill effects on the screen to be able to tell which one caused what. And you only find out what it does after it hits you!

********************************

A simple alternative would be:
When you die in PvP, you get a window showing what killed you, like this:
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/74190/gw148.jpg
Have that window show up in PvE too, set to “Timeline”, but when you put your mouse over the skills, it should show the skill description.

Give an preference in Options enabled by default, “display a window with the skills that killed you”.

…

That’s all for now.

lorazcyk.8927:

If concepts are introduced slowly and one at a time, eventually all players will be skilled enough that Lv 60-80 areas can be “Hard Mode” and they’ll be able to do it.

But that’s not the game we’re playing. The game we’re playing is designed to social promote a player to 80 even if they never figured out how to play better than the WoW 1-20 game requires.

I’ve been doing the dailies on alts, typically in the 1-30 type zones. A daily takes about an hour, and the game typically advances me around a full level for that hour in the lowbie zone, rewarding not just killing mobs, but also crafting, gathering, events, hearts (if my alt didn’t have these already), bonuses for the components of the daily, and the bonus for the daily itself.

So I have a bunch of 80s that, at least in theory, might never have seen a zone higher than Harathi. Just for the record, each of them has run at least Story mode of a few instances. Only the ones my guild and I agreed were played well have set foot in Fractals or Explorables.

My new main, which is my 6th 80, got there without ever setting foot in Orr. I find Orr is not designed to challenge me as a player, it’s designed to force grouping, because the trash mob density (and the CC trash mobs were given when the density was reduced) are such that I simply can’t get back from the nearest uncontested waypoint to an event I had PUG-joined. I also find the Orr ambiance unpleasant.

Bottom line: other choices the devs made render the theoretical progression of learning from 1-80 irrelevant. I don’t know who crafted their way to 80, just like I don’t know who bought that Legendary off the Trading post.

The important thing is to introduce only one concept at a time. One from 1-10, another from 10-15, and every 5 levels from then. At level 30, they can have more than one or two concepts.

Ofcourse, if you’re a high-level player going solo in a beginner area, the enemies could scale to have more mechanics. Then if a low-level player joins the fight, the enemy should keep focusing the high-level player, this way the high level player still has fun, but the low level player is safe as he learns the game.

I agree on introducing the mechanics one at a time. I think there needs to be a set of training quests, in a special area, in which participation is voluntary and anonymous, which people can use both to learn and remedially at 80. Kind of like the training dummies in the PvP area, but with much more focus and clear hurdles to complete, and which are transparent about what is being taught.

As to focusing the high level player…I’m not so sure on this one…seems to me this mechanic would both enable power leveling (the high level toon simply carries the low level one) and would prevent the low level player from learning the mechanics they need to (because they’re being carried whether they want to or not). Witness the dailies driving high level players into the starter zones, who then flatten encounters before at level players can even get to them (and sometimes before at level players can do enough damage to get even bronze credit). It’s too late for this game, but I much preferred the EQ2 model for mentoring, which did a much better job leaving the high level player “at level” and encouraged advancement against at-level content.

lorazcyk.8927:

In the tutorial (and 1-10 dynamic events), there could be some sub-dynamic event that teach how to fight skillfully. It doesn’t have to be obnoxious, just once in a while.

I never played the original Guild Wars (or should I say I tried the free trial after being in the GW2 beta but never really progressed, just tried to get a feel for the game and its lore and how the devs thought).

I still think we have players, particularly the ones who grew up in WoW or a WoW clone like RIFT, who have an assumption set which is incorrect for the combat mechanics in this game and will need to figure out they need to re learn before they in fact do the re learning. Seeing this game through that assumption set, they will be face tanking at 40 or 60 or even 80 before even realizing what this game is asking them to do. Little things popping up at low levels are just distracting for someone who’s trying to learn where the buttons are and where their health bar is. So I think it would be a mistake to limit access to the remedial content to low levels.

Make it anonymous, make it voluntary, make it explicit and transparent about what’s being taught, and make it accessible to all levels so once someone figures out they need to learn there’s someplace to go. Oh, and maybe some stats after a dungeon or fractal wipe that hint where to look…?

I agree on introducing the mechanics one at a time. I think there needs to be a set of training quests, in a special area, in which participation is voluntary and anonymous

Then no one would do it. Those who need to learn would not learn at all.
It needs to be part of the gameplay. It needs to be conditioned into players minds as they play. If it’s just just training quests in a special area, they’ll do the events for the rewards, but once they leave they won’t do the things they “learned” anymore.
It needs to be little by little, one concept at the time, as you level up, so it gets ingrained in the players’ minds that “this is how you fight”.

Monsters already gain abilities depending on the number of players. If necessary, they could make the enemies “dumb” when there’s only one low-level player engaging it, and make it smarter the more players there are.
The important thing is to introduce only one concept at a time. One from 1-10, another from 10-15, and every 5 levels from then. At level 30, they can have more than one or two concepts.
Ofcourse, if you’re a high-level player going solo in a beginner area, the enemies could scale to have more mechanics. Then if a low-level player joins the fight, the enemy should keep focusing the high-level player, this way the high level player still has fun, but the low level player is safe as he learns the game.

As to focusing the high level player…I’m not so sure on this one…seems to me this mechanic would both enable power leveling (the high level toon simply carries the low level one) and would prevent the low level player from learning the mechanics they need to (because they’re being carried whether they want to or not).

Not really. It would end at 15 or so. And the enemy would focus only the advanced and combined mechanics on the 80, the mechanics from the area (meant to teach lower level) would still focus on the lower level guy.
Or it could be two monsters, the one the level 80 person was fighting keeps targeting it, but a easier one spawns that targets the lower level.
It’s not fair to have all the advanced mechanics meant for the level 80 go and target the lower level player.

It is already possible to power level (and run players to high level maps).
This change would actually make it more difficult to powerlevel.

Witness the dailies driving high level players into the starter zones, who then flatten encounters before at level players can even get to them (and sometimes before at level players can do enough damage to get even bronze credit)

That’s precisely what I was thinking. My suggested change would improve this, because the monster the Lv 80 is fighting won’t be easy for him to fight!

I suppose high level players could be stupid and fight the easy enemy, leaving the difficult enemy for the lowbie player. But I doubt it. The advanced enemy could knock down or immobilize him and keep focusing him so he can’t go to easier ones. And if the 80 leaves, the enemy’s abilities would adapt to be easier for the lowbie.

(I never noticed that monsters can adapt, but ANet says they do?)

Fix the unholy trinity:
http://youtu.be/BBxStGB6-UE

More or less explains what I’m talking about.

But that’s not the game we’re playing. The game we’re playing is designed to social promote a player to 80 even if they never figured out how to play better than the WoW 1-20 game requires.

Come on man; Guild Wars 2 can do better than multi-player note pad. Seriously. Challenge your brain a little.

They can start by allowing for dedicated healer builds (since we already have tank builds) and restoring the trinity. Then they can look at making content that can be challenging. Under current mechanics it will always be a DPS faceroll.

Very simple.
Have separate worlds for hardcore only…..don’t even advertise what cool gear they get to everybody else

(I betcha almost nobody would actually go there… hardcore just like to ask for challenging so they can pretend they are “skilled”.)

Vayne.8563:

That’s why hard mode should be added to dungeons. Unfortunately, Anet tried this and found out that now that they’ve made AC harder, all the people in favor of harder content seem to have vanished.

People say they want challenging content, but by percentage, most people want challenging content that gives them better loot than any other area of the game. Take away the loot and you take away the drive to do the content.

Might be because the rewards didn’t scale with the difficulty. Why would I bother with something that poorly balanced? As it is, dungeons are about as unfun as it gets and if it wasn’t for the ready cash supply many would never do them (I stopped doing them some time ago).

I disagree with Vayne they didn’t try this at least not in the way that people normally do this in other titles.

In other titles they had various difficulties of the same dungeon. The bosses n challenges were harder in these elite versions and players got better rewards for doing them. There was also a ui to choose which ones you wanted to do.

At the same time they added currencies to the regular dungeons so that players who were more dungeoneer casual could go and do the regular dungeons and still feel like they could progress.

They haven’t done this in this game, they’ve just adjusted the regular mode dungeons to be harder and naturally people are going to complain about that.

All they need to is make there be two sets but the same content on different levels of difficulty and a ui to choose between the two and then change what one gets at the end by adding a dungeon completion chest much like the chests that popup for the other events in game (like the dailies) that hold the things players need.

This also would solve the problems with their “lack-o-rewards” system they got going with T6 materials and nerfs to open world loot systems.

Nothing, sadly.

Problem is that difficulty is relative, and no matter what you do, it won’t be right for someone.

In addition, there are multiple professions in the game, and some have an easier time.

They had it tried with explorable vs story mode as well as increasing fractal level, sadly, people would complain about getting less reward, and some diatribe about how they have a life so they can’t learn to play the game better.

It is entirely possible to create a situation where content is “skill gated”, due to people feeling entitled to get access to everything without any effort. Ultimately when a lot of people say “challenging content” it is content that “I can still beat, but those nubs over there can’t.” If they somehow fall into the second category, most will break down and start immediately whining in the forums.

Of course, it doesn’t matter anyways, since 378 karma and 168 copper aren’t worth talking about.

Anwar.2018:

Very simple.
Have separate worlds for hardcore only…..don’t even advertise what cool gear they get to everybody else

(I betcha almost nobody would actually go there… hardcore just like to ask for challenging so they can pretend they are “skilled”.)

I absolutely would ;-)

StormageddonBK.9842:

Anwar.2018:

Very simple.
Have separate worlds for hardcore only…..don’t even advertise what cool gear they get to everybody else

(I betcha almost nobody would actually go there… hardcore just like to ask for challenging so they can pretend they are “skilled”.)

I absolutely would ;-)

Me too, I don’t even need the cool gear. Easy servers can keep it.
I just hope the challenging content would actually be challenging, not just inflated HP pools, insta KO, etc Oh, and I’m not skilled… far from it, I’m still learning, I make so many rookie mistakes. But even if I’m not skilled I don’t want my game to be a waste of time to play because it’s not challenging. Even tic tac toe is more challenging sometimes. I want to learn and get better, but I need a reason to. The game needs to be challenging.

An example of an “hard mode” alternative to defiant:

1. Boss starts with 30 seconds of stability.
2. If players remove the boon, the enemy tries to cause blind, daze, interrupt, etc, when it detects an incoming CC.
3. If he gets CC’d, he removes the condition or breaks stun. If he ran out of stun breaks and condition removal, he gets stability again and the cycle repeats.

Since some professions don’t have boon removal (warrior and ranger don’t right?), the boss could start on #2, then #3, then #1.

That could actually happen in different order on different bosses, but since it’s a cycle, the boss would always have a defense to CC, but counterable with skill.

(Offtopic: really wish we had combos that do boon removal or give stability)