Guild Wars 2

Hehe, OP is calling the Living Story updates a content. Phunny OP.

This is not really a problem as it is more like the general nature of society as a whole, and hence the general nature of mmorpgs, which usually have thousands if not millions of people playing. Your description fits perfectly well any real life setting with a number of different kinds of people – including but not limited to entitled ones and skillful ones.

As far as I can tell, the only (debatable) problem with the current game design is that the rewards for difficult content is not necessarily appropriate in value considering the difference in difficulty in obtaining them, because of the focus in horizontal progression instead. Which can be both a good and bad thing.

At the very least, the game provides options for both kind of people, and the only real reward for overcoming difficult content is the self-satisfaction that you were able to do so.

I do agree that difficult content has its place in the game, but it should be a separate thing from the standard content/main achievement of an update. Every standard skill level player should be able to “finish” a Living Story, i.e. get the main achievement plus reward. And then there could be an additional, optional “hard mode” achievement/reward for those who think they are hot stuff (e.g. “OK, we sent the bad guys running and everybody who helped gets a title and some exotic socks, but we found out where the main villain is hiding, go do this instance for an additional reward – but this will be difficult”).

That way everybody can say “yup, did this Living Story and got the title/reward”, and the hard mode players can show off their additional shinies.

One additional thing: I really do like the way this new Living Story update works. In previous updates, I often had the problem that to get the overall reward, I had to do all those individual achievements, among which there always were quite a few which I really did not want to do. Either some pvp arena stuff, or dungeons, or win some other annoying minigame. And most of the time, you could only leave out 1-2 and still get the overall reward. Which was why I did not finish the last two Living Story updates – I could not leave out the annoying stuff (like e.g. Sprint/aspect arena) and still do the overall achievement. The new daily achievements for the Living Story really help out, because now I can ignore the annoying things and still finish the Living Story. So, keep this up please, and do not force players to do ALL parts of a Living Story update (e.g. new minigames) to get the main achievement.

Tsubaki.8732:

(e.g. “OK, we sent the bad guys running and everybody who helped gets a title and some exotic socks, but we found out where the main villain is hiding, go do this instance for an additional reward – but this will be difficult”).

Pretty sure that’s the Word-for-Word description of what Explorables were….
Gee I wonder whatever happened to those??

Tsubaki.8732:

I do agree that difficult content has its place in the game, but it should be a separate thing from the standard content/main achievement of an update. Every standard skill level player should be able to “finish” a Living Story, i.e. get the main achievement plus reward. And then there could be an additional, optional “hard mode” achievement/reward for those who think they are hot stuff (e.g. “OK, we sent the bad guys running and everybody who helped gets a title and some exotic socks, but we found out where the main villain is hiding, go do this instance for an additional reward – but this will be difficult”).

That way everybody can say “yup, did this Living Story and got the title/reward”, and the hard mode players can show off their additional shinies.

One additional thing: I really do like the way this new Living Story update works. In previous updates, I often had the problem that to get the overall reward, I had to do all those individual achievements, among which there always were quite a few which I really did not want to do. Either some pvp arena stuff, or dungeons, or win some other annoying minigame. And most of the time, you could only leave out 1-2 and still get the overall reward. Which was why I did not finish the last two Living Story updates – I could not leave out the annoying stuff (like e.g. Sprint/aspect arena) and still do the overall achievement. The new daily achievements for the Living Story really help out, because now I can ignore the annoying things and still finish the Living Story. So, keep this up please, and do not force players to do ALL parts of a Living Story update (e.g. new minigames) to get the main achievement.

Yeah, I really love the implementation of the achievements this time. I know I will probably end up barely touching QG, but I can and have still participated in the QJ achievements, and if there were any achievements there that gave me any difficulty, I could have waited for a more accessible daily to roll along.

It’s easily the most accessible Living World update to date. Cordoning off the difficult content into its own category was a stroke of genius and the dailies make the easier stuff more flexible.

The overall setup of this release was good. They separated the guantlet challenge out from the other jubilee content. They could have left them in which would have been a problem but they are a separate thing. It is called a guantlet for a reason, you run the guantlet and those that survive can brag about it with the mini.
I am personally crap at twitch and most of the skills needed for this and I doubt I will be getting the mini. I am not demanding anything be changed though certain things are annoying. As was posted above, the kick out in downed state to a spot you must WP away from if people just stand above you (or are often not there) is a bad design as is the cage floor interactions with the red circles.
Overall this is a really nice Living Story addition and I hope they continue in this line.

I think people are forgetting that out of just about all the content we’ve had, there are very few actual challenges. Alot of people hate Giganticus Lupicus, I personally love it because it requires the player to respond to mechanics or be punished for it. Now I am the type of player that has ‘raided’ and played tournament pvp in the past for quite some time and I enjoy a challenge. Naturally I really enjoyed this gauntlet content.

I can see that there are people that want to have everything and I agree, this gauntlet should have came with 2 difficulty modes just like SAB. I do think that giving the hardmode an extra item of some sorts is a good thing, there is almost nothing in this game that destinguishes a good player from a not as good player. During the livestream about the jubilee they specifically mentioned they wanted to give players something like that for a change. If you look at all the content we’ve been getting this is the first update apart from fractals that gives a reward for a challenge that not everyone can get. Is that really that bad? All the words said about conditioning and players’ attitude probably applies here. People are so used to get everything they want if they just bash their head against the wall enough times that content like this causes an outcry. I hope ANet isn’t scared off from doing it in the future but simply adds 2 difficulties instead.

I love challenge, but I hate tedium and on populated servers, a bit of lag can result in a death and ridiculous wait.

I think OP is part of the 3rd group. The group that doesn’t really read into most of the complaints about Liadri and then complain base on assumptions.. Yes there are the 2 groups mention, but most are not part of those clamoring for entitlement. That assumption is strictly that and you know what those do.

There are obvious issues with the instances. Most complaints are about those, NOT just wanting content easier or harder for the sake of entitlement as OP and some others claim.

Peetee.9406:

Because you’re deriving happiness from the misfortune of other players.

Whether or not someone receives a mini or an achievement does not affect you. To deny them happiness just for the sake of your bragging rights is not good behavior.

The title of this thread should not be “entitled players vs skilled players”, it should be “regular players vs jerks”.

Unfortunately, in a world with unlimited wants and very limited resources, this is the only way to derive happiness.

To take away what could potentially make someone else happy.

Reikou.7068:

Unfortunately, in a world with unlimited wants and very limited resources, this is the only way to derive happiness.

To take away what could potentially make someone else happy.

In some contexts this would be true, in others not necessarily. I don’t think this is an optimization problem, but an implementation problem.

You could argue that it would take many man hours to implement some kind of variable to adjust the difficulty for each event, but that isn’t the case, especially since the constraints for combat in GW2 make it very easy to predict.

The telegraphed attacks are easy to predict, while other times it boils down to first order differentials. Seriously, adding another dialogue option with a copy of the same thing albeit with different parameters isn’t as monumentally difficult as they would make it out to believe.

I suppose what irks me the most about the Liadri fight is that Anet got “difficulty” wrong. I wrote about this in another thread, which I’ll repost some here:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

My biggest gripe is the fake difficulty of it all.

#1: The camera. It is extremely limited, making it so you can’t see what is going on. Half the fight is zoomed on the back of my character’s head.
#2: The random object pull. This would be fine if we could see the whole field, and that stupid pulling orb wouldn’t get “obstructed” every time you attacked it. But, game glitches and camera angles, ho! It isn’t like the random pull is pure RNG here.
#3: One hit kill mechanics are never fun. They just discriminate against builds.
#4: The grates on the ground make it so you can’t see the AoE circles that well. In the second phase of the fight, I basically have to guess whenever I’m in an AoE or not.
#5: OH THE LAG! This comes from two sources.
a)Zone lag. Due to the large amount of people zerging this area at 3:00 AM, every action you take can have anywhere from a 0.5 to 1 second delay on it. Because of this, you’ll end up squatting stationary in on area trying to pick up an orb of light, resulting in death.
b)There are huge lag spikes that delay the game 5-10 seconds, and you get these every few minutes. If you get one in the fight, fight is over.
#6: Time limit. Due to the extremely limited space of the gauntlet, to make it so no on can abuse the “whole server shares 6 domes” system they made, they put a time limit in the fight, so you have to rush ahead to beat the bosses when the smart thing to do otherwise would’ve been to wait for a better opportunity. Again, this just discriminates against builds.
#7: It is punishing and expensive. The truffle soups are 30 silver each, and you have to pay to get more tickets, and then you have to pay the repair bill. On average, each “fight” costs about 10 silver. Worst part is when people don’t rez you, and you have to run throughout the entire map to get another shot, getting more people to queue up before you and wasting more time off of food bonuses.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty

for reference by what I mean for “Fake Difficulty”.

Fact is, a lot of players would like harder content. Problem is, hard does not mean gimmicky, frustrating, poorly designed, or grindy. Liadri was a step backward from AR and specially MF.

darkace.8925:

This is going to be a touchy subject, so I’m going to say as little as possible so as to avoid insulting anyone (even though no insult is intended). The number of complaints I’m seeing about Liadri brings to light the conditioned state of (seemingly) most gamers. They want easy, accessible content and they want to be able to complete everything (so as to maximize achievements or loot or just to feel good about themselves).

On the other end of the spectrum are the players who genuinely want to be challenged. The fact that some players have defeated Liadri says she can be defeated. The fact that many players are complaining that she’s an unfair fight says that defeating her requires skill.

That leaves us with two groups of players directly opposed to one another, and the developers cannot – no matter how much they’d like to – please both at once. They’re either going to release content that is easy enough for virtually anyone to complete or they’re going to release challenging content that leaves less-skilled players crying foul. Either way, someone’s going to feel alienated.

I’m of the belief that the game (all games, for that matter) need tougher content that require a greater display of skill to complete. I don’t necessarily like the idea of content being locked behind difficult achievements (this is coming from a guy who had access to Sea in FFXI when that actually meant something), but I have no problems at all with achievements/achievement points or cosmetic items being reserved for the very best players.

The problem arises in the conditioning of players these days. Now I recognize there are many players who fail something like Liadri and say to themselves, “well, I’m just not good enough. Bravo to those who beat her,” and move on with their gaming lives. But these also seems to be a vocal group (who knows how large they actually are?) who believe effort or desire, and not skill, should determine whether or not one is able to accomplish every achievement or obtain every reward. It’s strikes me as a sense of entitlement, and I can see where it would put the developers between a rock and a hard place.

Thoughts? If you respond, please do so in a civil and constructive manner. Thanks.

PS – This thread shouldn’t offense anyone, but these days you never can tell. So I’m sorry if I ruffled any feathers with my post; that was not my intention.

What you call skill is what I call clever abuse of in-game mechanics..
All people ever do is rush dungeons, finding bug spots, where they can rush to in order to skip mobs, then do the bosses ( that they also know a certain abusive way to defeat).

People who do it the old fashioned way are, by your standards, called “unskilled?”

Chipster.6713:

What you call skill is what I call clever abuse of in-game mechanics..
All people ever do is rush dungeons, finding bug spots, where they can rush to in order to skip mobs, then do the bosses ( that they also know a certain abusive way to defeat).

People who do it the old fashioned way are, by your standards, called “unskilled?”

Quite frankly? Yes.

The game doesn’t care how you do it, only that you do it.

Scoobaniec.9561:

Everytime i see a legendary user dying to basic bosses there i just laugh in their face..they don’t deserve to have one.

I find this attitude way more harmful than the “entitled” attitude. Players wanting to exclude other players from enjoying the game simply because “they’re not as good as ME so they don’t deserve to have awesome things in a video game.”

kitten off and get over yourself. Its a video game, everyone who buys it is entitled to enjoy it. You want skill to mean something? Go do something in real life that requires skill. You’ll get all the exclusion you want there.

I’ll also note that it seems many players who want harder content that only “they” can do, also want rewards that can only be gotten by them for doing the hard content. Gee, entitled much?

I’m fine for harder content. I’ve not challenged the queen’s gauntlet at all and I won’t, because its not my thing, but harder content should not exclude people from getting items in a video game. If skilled players really want their skill to matter, then completing the challenge that others cannot is reward enough (or should be). Give them a title for it. But items? Now they’re just being the entitled “I did this so I demand I get a reward” players they claim are unreasonable.

Ok, I can sort of see the point of the OP but I do have one concern.

Your title says entitled vs skilled.

Then you speak of people who want to be rewarded for effort or desire when they are not skilled enough.

This is not a clean comparison. Entitled people are people who feel they should get something NO MATTER WHAT. I do not think it’s right to give the impression that people who want to put in effort as entitled. I say impression because I think that’s not what you meant. I think you meant “just cause they tried it once”.

On the other hand skilled people can be entitled too. So to say entitled vs skilled is an incorrect comparison.

Some people just played many games and hours and only take one or two attempts to figure something out and do it. This means they are skilled but this is easy for them. It’s not really a challenge.

And see I believe in challenge but if someone has so much existing skill or whatever that everything is easy, then it’s not a challenge for them. And these people can be tempted to think highly of themselves and look down on other people. If they then think that they should get the big rewards and the rest can’t, then we have a different brand of entitlement.

People have different skills and different interests. MMOs attract various groups of players on purpose….they should therefore take care that they have differerent roads that lead to Rome.

When I see someone who comes into a game like this and within a month has done everything, my guess is that it was easy for this guy. Too easy. Should that be rewarded when it’s actually easy for someone?

I do agree that people who want everything now and without much or any effort are entitled and I despise that. But skilled people are not free of such behaviour, that’s what I’m saying.

Morrigan.2809:

They tried to cater to both kinds of players in this patch.

The balloons, the zerg downstairs in the pavilion, not to mention the champ loot for the casual players and the Gauntlet for people who want to try their skill.

They even separated the achievements in two categories so that the one is not dependent on the other.
That was a very good direction to take with the Living Story

Honestly I don’t know what people want anymore

I feel that, ironically, if they truly wanted to cater to both groups, it should have been under one category (say, 16 from current Jubilee and 15 from current Gauntlet) and needed just 16 or so to complete for the combined reward of both.

I don’t mind there being difficult content that rewards the more skilled or the more hardcore players. In fact, I think ANet managed it very well with this latest LS patch because I can still zerg around in the Crown Pavilion to my heart’s content, and then go and watch other people test their skill against some harder bosses upstairs. The reward isn’t anything integral to the game, but it’s something nice to have and to “show off” for those that manage to complete the content.

ANet even did one better than I could have hoped and made the achievements for the Gauntlet entirely separate from the Jubilee set of achievements. Great! I can now focus on getting the LS meta achievement and get a cool Watchwork mini, while people who can run the Gauntlet can get a few extra achievement points, a (fairly) exclusive mini and bragging rights. What’s to argue with that? We all have fun our own way, and we’re all rewarded for it. In no way do I feel I’ve missed out because I can do all the stuff that counts towards the LS, and the Gauntlet is a returning feature, so when I have enough time in the game and my skill level is high enough, I get a chance to have a go at beating Liadri. I see it as a win-win.

It’s why I didn’t have an issue with fractals introducing Ascended gear … while that was the only way to get it, but also the only place you needed it. These things don’t impact on anybody’s way of playing, or their level of skill, but still means that people who are skilled have something to work towards.

Wethospu.6437:

Just wondering am I considered entitled when my weaponswap gets a cooldown whenever I throw an orb because of a bugged Warrior trait?
Lots of complaints are based on stuff like this. If they are designing frustrating fights (with steep penalty for small mistake) they really should ensure that their incompetency doesn’t add an extra layer of frustration.

I unless you are trying for the 8 orb achievement the weapon swap but bug doesn’t affect you since the only attacking you need to do in phase 1 are the vortexes and even if there location is random their respawn time isn’t.

Scoobaniec.9561:

Something like beating that gimmick boss called Liadri should be needed to make legendary weapon.. Hope they will think about it in future with more legendary items.

Everytime i see a legendary user dying to basic bosses there i just laugh in their face..they don’t deserve to have one.

I would always fear less prettyboys with shiny swords over a guy in rusty armor full of holes and dryed blood on his weapon.

As a small constructive criticism of your OP. I really hate the term “entitled.” You can’t say “entitled” in your topic and not insult the “entitled”. It’s like if I posted “paragons of virtue vs. lazy kittens” there’s no way the “lazy kittens” aren’t going to be offended no matter what else I say (I know, I’ve tried).

That said, I feel like ANet is terrible at creating a challenge for the mid-level player. I’m definitely not an expert. I tend to find that a lot of the content is either way too easy or impossible. That’s probably on me, because i’m not willing to spend the time to learn all the tells, etc. It’s just not fun for me.

There are very few times where I feel like I got out by the seat of your pants through improvisation. For me, that’s the most rewarding feeling.

In this game most of the challenging content requires memorization and execution based on the memorization. If it’s close, it’s because the execution window allows for a very small margin of error or because I yawned at the wrong time.

So I guess I’m in neither camp. I like dynamic situations where it feels like I can use the tools I have creatively. I don’t like situations where I feel like there’s a pre-scripted path of actions I am suppose to perform and I just need to memorize the order. In short, there’s nothing for me in this patch.

Julie Yann.5379:

Wethospu.6437:

Just wondering am I considered entitled when my weaponswap gets a cooldown whenever I throw an orb because of a bugged Warrior trait?
Lots of complaints are based on stuff like this. If they are designing frustrating fights (with steep penalty for small mistake) they really should ensure that their incompetency doesn’t add an extra layer of frustration.

I unless you are trying for the 8 orb achievement the weapon swap but bug doesn’t affect you since the only attacking you need to do in phase 1 are the vortexes and even if there location is random their respawn time isn’t.

Since there is no visible post counter could you at least try to put some effort in your posts? Because I really don’t understand what you are trying to tell me there. Are Fast Hands and vortexes somehow related?

I agree with the people who are saying that separating out the achievements that are doable for most players (the Balloon stuff and the CP stuff) from the QG gauntlet stuff was an excellent idea. I, as a crap player, am nearly done with the celebration stuff and anticipate that I may well finish it, and am also plowing through the QG stuff as best I can, but I accept I may never get those achievements.

I think that’s ok. I will also probably never get achievements like “escorting 1000 dolyaks” in WvW, or “equipping 100 items of cultural armor”, and things like that.

It’s ok to have things that not everyone can do in a game.

And as to the person who said why make things that elite people can boast about – isn’t that part of the whole raison d’etre of MMORPGs, so that people can have virtual achievements that mean something in the virtual world, that they can be proud of, and that others in the same virtual world can recognize as difficult achievements?

Paulytnz.7619:

JustTrogdor.7892:

Nick.6972:

Back in the days the graphics and controls were bad, games glitchy.

I agree but I kind of miss those days.

O. M. G.

Anet has to add this to the game!

People think griefing is bad these days. Ultima Online in its early days was one of the forefathers of MMO griefing LOL.

Reikou.7068:

Chipster.6713:

What you call skill is what I call clever abuse of in-game mechanics..
All people ever do is rush dungeons, finding bug spots, where they can rush to in order to skip mobs, then do the bosses ( that they also know a certain abusive way to defeat).

People who do it the old fashioned way are, by your standards, called “unskilled?”

Quite frankly? Yes.

The game doesn’t care how you do it, only that you do it.

Stacking in the corner to kill spider queen, subject alpha, etc. doesn’t show any skill at all. Yes it’s faster, efficient, better, etc. but that’s exactly why it doesn’t show skill… it requires no skill. Being able to dodge the attacks normally and fight the boss normally is a sign of skill. Being clever enough to stack is simply a sign of efficiency.

the reason liadri is a problem is because theres a shiny chest behind her, so that’ll be content not everybody can do and therefore would only stand to divide elitist kittens from the rest of the world.

if a-net wants to make actually challenging bosses without broken mechanics then fine, but don’t tie anything to the boss monster, no mini, no achievement points, no treasure.
the only reason the boss even exists is so those “skilled” players can have something “hard” to kill. and nothing else.
the “skilled” are still entitled because they want something to go behind the challenging boss so they can have something to push in the face of others, instead of just the self satisfaction of showing off to your friends as they watch as you killed the boss or just the satisfaction that you could do it.

but the line between the entitled and the skilled is very skewed. remember that.

Dagraan.2854:

the reason liadri is a problem is because theres a shiny chest behind her, so that’ll be content not everybody can do and therefore would only stand to divide elitist kittens from the rest of the world.

if a-net wants to make actually challenging bosses without broken mechanics then fine, but don’t tie anything to the boss monster, no mini, no achievement points, no treasure.
the only reason the boss even exists is so those “skilled” players can have something “hard” to kill. and nothing else.
the “skilled” are still entitled because they want something to go behind the challenging boss so they can have something to push in the face of others, instead of just the self satisfaction of showing off to your friends as they watch as you killed the boss or just the satisfaction that you could do it.

What a great idea! However, let’s remove all rewards from GW2, that way everyone gets the chance to do whatever content they want just for fun!

See how that works?

Xenon.4537:

Stacking in the corner to kill spider queen, subject alpha, etc. doesn’t show any skill at all. Yes it’s faster, efficient, better, etc. but that’s exactly why it doesn’t show skill… it requires no skill. Being able to dodge the attacks normally and fight the boss normally is a sign of skill. Being clever enough to stack is simply a sign of efficiency.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

“The scrub has still more crutches. He talks a great deal about “skill” and how he has skill whereas other players—very much including the ones who beat him flat out—do not have skill. The confusion here is what “skill” actually is. In Street Fighter, scrubs often cling to combos as a measure of skill. A combo is a sequence of moves that is unblockable if the first move hits. Combos can be very elaborate and very difficult to pull off. But single moves can also take “skill,” according to the scrub. The “dragon punch” or “uppercut” in Street Fighter is performed by holding the joystick toward the opponent, then down, then diagonally down and toward as the player presses a punch button. This movement must be completed within a fraction of a second, and though there is leeway, it must be executed fairly accurately. Ask any scrub and they will tell you that a dragon punch is a “skill move.”

I once played a scrub who was actually quite good. That is, he knew the rules of the game well, he knew the character matchups well, and he knew what to do in most situations. But his web of mental rules kept him from truly playing to win. He cried cheap as I beat him with “no skill moves” while he performed many difficult dragon punches. He cried cheap when I threw him five times in a row asking, “Is that all you know how to do? Throw?” I gave him the best advice he could ever hear. I told him, “Play to win, not to do ‘difficult moves.’” This was a big moment in that scrub’s life. He could either ignore his losses and continue living in his mental prison or analyze why he lost, shed his rules, and reach the next level of play.

I’ve never been to a tournament where there was a prize for the winner and another prize for the player who did many difficult moves. I’ve also never seen a prize for a player who played “in an innovative way.” (Though chess tournaments do sometimes have prizes for “brilliancies,” moves that are strokes of genius.) Many scrubs have strong ties to “innovation.” They say, “That guy didn’t do anything new, so he is no good.” Or “person X invented that technique and person Y just stole it.” Well, person Y might be one hundred times better than person X, but that doesn’t seem to matter to the scrub. When person Y wins the tournament and person X is a forgotten footnote, what will the scrub say? That person Y has “no skill” of course."

Referring to fighting games, but it is analogous to what is being discussed here.

I haven’t read the whole thread very closely, so sorry if I’m repeating.

So far as the Gauntlet goes, I’m not sure it’s a feeling of entitlement specifically that fuels the complaints (and what is with people using that word these days? ‘Entitlement’ is extremely overused and often misused.)
There’s two reasons that I can see for people to feel annoyed by the situation of these bosses they can’t beat. First, it’s temporary content, which means there’s already pressure to acquire these achievements before they’re gone. It’s the same reason people complain about basically everything in this game— they feel compelled to do something or risk losing out. Second, the nature of the event itself is presented as a fun community festival for everyone. I think some of the complainers may have missed the memo that these challenges were supposed to be for more advanced gameplay.

The complaints wouldn’t be so loud if this were permanent content they couldn’t beat. Then, most people would go “eh, I’ll come back to it later.” Instead, they feel like they’re bashing their heads against a wall and running out of time.
I personally walked in there once, got my kitten handed to me, and happily pretended that content didn’t exist. But the completionist part of me gets worked up in frustration at seeing those achievements I’m going to pass on.

Maybe the problem is putting High End/Challenging content in a Starter City.

Putting this in the Human Starter area where anyone with a character can stumble into it may not be the best plan of attack. Most people believe if they can get to it easily then the challenge should be relatively easy.

For Example: In GW1 by the time you got to TotA and access to the Underworld, you knew you had better be ready for a challenge or you were dead…quick.

Maybe it is as simple as it was made available in the wrong place?

Wethospu.6437:

Julie Yann.5379:

Wethospu.6437:

Just wondering am I considered entitled when my weaponswap gets a cooldown whenever I throw an orb because of a bugged Warrior trait?
Lots of complaints are based on stuff like this. If they are designing frustrating fights (with steep penalty for small mistake) they really should ensure that their incompetency doesn’t add an extra layer of frustration.

I unless you are trying for the 8 orb achievement the weapon swap but bug doesn’t affect you since the only attacking you need to do in phase 1 are the vortexes and even if there location is random their respawn time isn’t.

Since there is no visible post counter could you at least try to put some effort in your posts? Because I really don’t understand what you are trying to tell me there. Are Fast Hands and vortexes somehow related?

If you aren’t going for the 8 orb achievement the only time you throw the orbs is in phase 1. The only thing that’s needs to be destroyed in phase 1 are the vortexes. Once you know the timing, you are never caught with your weapon swap on cool down. Once you hit phase 2 you don’t throw any more orbs and basically range for the rest of the fight and don’t really swap weapons anyway. Yes, it is bugged and Anet should fix it but they won’t.

She isn’t an unfair fight because she requires skill. She is an unfair fight because of the awful camera, the numerous glitches and the ever present culling.

The gauntlet is a great idea but the fights need a lot more polish.

Tip: I turned off post processing cause at some points I could not see the AoE rings on the ground cause the aweful lighting effects. Made it much easier.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Dagraan.2854:

the reason liadri is a problem is because theres a shiny chest behind her, so that’ll be content not everybody can do and therefore would only stand to divide elitist kittens from the rest of the world.

if a-net wants to make actually challenging bosses without broken mechanics then fine, but don’t tie anything to the boss monster, no mini, no achievement points, no treasure.
the only reason the boss even exists is so those “skilled” players can have something “hard” to kill. and nothing else.
the “skilled” are still entitled because they want something to go behind the challenging boss so they can have something to push in the face of others, instead of just the self satisfaction of showing off to your friends as they watch as you killed the boss or just the satisfaction that you could do it.

What a great idea! However, let’s remove all rewards from GW2, that way everyone gets the chance to do whatever content they want just for fun!

See how that works?

well if everybody can do it that means more people will enjoy the content i.e. more people staying = more money for a-net.
sure some elitist kittens will leave and find “challenging” games, but the gain will be much more than the lose.

so instead of grinding for some stupid mini they can play and enjoy the content.

Dagraan.2854:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Dagraan.2854:

the reason liadri is a problem is because theres a shiny chest behind her, so that’ll be content not everybody can do and therefore would only stand to divide elitist kittens from the rest of the world.

if a-net wants to make actually challenging bosses without broken mechanics then fine, but don’t tie anything to the boss monster, no mini, no achievement points, no treasure.
the only reason the boss even exists is so those “skilled” players can have something “hard” to kill. and nothing else.
the “skilled” are still entitled because they want something to go behind the challenging boss so they can have something to push in the face of others, instead of just the self satisfaction of showing off to your friends as they watch as you killed the boss or just the satisfaction that you could do it.

What a great idea! However, let’s remove all rewards from GW2, that way everyone gets the chance to do whatever content they want just for fun!

See how that works?

well if everybody can do it that means more people will enjoy the content i.e. more people staying = more money for a-net.
sure some elitist kittens will leave and find “challenging” games, but the gain will be much more than the lose.

so instead of grinding for some stupid mini they can play and enjoy the content.

Can i have my legendary for free, without real money, gold or time spent?, because i dont have time…
It doesnt work that form, is the same with a skill challenge.
So or you eliminate all rewards, or you learn to live knowing some people have things you dont.

Without singling anyone, I’ll say that some of the responses in this post illustrate what I’m talking about. There’s an air of entitlement in that they expect to obtain the reward and accomplish the achievement simply by virtue of trying. If everyone was awarded a first-place ribbon, regardless of where they finished, then the ribbon would be little more than a participation ribbon.

What’s more, the some (not all) of the people who feel this way feel their opinion is the only one that matters. They can’t enjoy the game unless they can 100% their checklist (achievements, mini-pets, etc). So this is a problem that needs to be addressed. Never mind that doing so comes at the expense of the other side – those wanting a challenge for which a certain level of skill is required. Those guys are just elitist jerks, right? So who cares what they want.

I’m Casual i got too chomp and the other guy..

I cannot pass him and do not really care. i saw the mini pet you get for all the hassle of liadri and gave up, i’m not interested in such a poor reward for such content.

Is it too hard to pass for me maybe, maybe not, i just feel rewards should equal the risk in this game, if they don’t i don’t do them, if that makes me elitist then so be it.

Id rather be casual than fight my kitten off for no reason, i don’t play games to be challenged or frustrated i play them for the exact opposite reasons.

Dagraan.2854:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Dagraan.2854:

the reason liadri is a problem is because theres a shiny chest behind her, so that’ll be content not everybody can do and therefore would only stand to divide elitist kittens from the rest of the world.

if a-net wants to make actually challenging bosses without broken mechanics then fine, but don’t tie anything to the boss monster, no mini, no achievement points, no treasure.
the only reason the boss even exists is so those “skilled” players can have something “hard” to kill. and nothing else.
the “skilled” are still entitled because they want something to go behind the challenging boss so they can have something to push in the face of others, instead of just the self satisfaction of showing off to your friends as they watch as you killed the boss or just the satisfaction that you could do it.

What a great idea! However, let’s remove all rewards from GW2, that way everyone gets the chance to do whatever content they want just for fun!

See how that works?

well if everybody can do it that means more people will enjoy the content i.e. more people staying = more money for a-net.
sure some elitist kittens will leave and find “challenging” games, but the gain will be much more than the lose.

so instead of grinding for some stupid mini they can play and enjoy the content.

There’s plenty of content for “everybody” to enjoy. You call the mini “stupid,” but your post calling for rewards to be removed from hard content, specifically Liadri, betrays what you really think.

Shockwave.1230:

Ashen.2907:

Banquetto.9521:

Casual players will enjoy the easy content. Challenge-seekers will enjoy the challenging content. And perpetual whiners will whine, but they would have whined anyway no matter what, and should always be ignored.

We have a winner !

You cannot please all of the players all of the time, so you take turns.

Or take a little more time, so you can release both types of content at the same time. It allows their QA to identify more issues with the content that’s ready anyways.

But that’s what they did with this patch.

The gauntlet is the challenging content for the challenge-seekers.

Running with the zerg in the pavilion is easy and rewarding content for casual players. Sure you’ll die if you stray away from the zerg and get mobbed, but who cares, only takes a second to run back.

The champion loot out in the open world is good for both challenge-seekers who like to solo champions, and casuals who like to run with the zerg.

Right off the bat, this thread is biased. Biased by the title alone. Since one of the terms is being used in a complimentary fashion, while the other in a derogatory one.

What’s most important for Arenanet to keep in mind is, we’re all paying them to be entertained. I think most of us are not paying them to be grieved, trolled, annoyed, or anything of the like. Thus, difficulty or challenge should come second in importance to the focus of being entertained.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Dagraan.2854:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Dagraan.2854:

the reason liadri is a problem is because theres a shiny chest behind her, so that’ll be content not everybody can do and therefore would only stand to divide elitist kittens from the rest of the world.

if a-net wants to make actually challenging bosses without broken mechanics then fine, but don’t tie anything to the boss monster, no mini, no achievement points, no treasure.
the only reason the boss even exists is so those “skilled” players can have something “hard” to kill. and nothing else.
the “skilled” are still entitled because they want something to go behind the challenging boss so they can have something to push in the face of others, instead of just the self satisfaction of showing off to your friends as they watch as you killed the boss or just the satisfaction that you could do it.

What a great idea! However, let’s remove all rewards from GW2, that way everyone gets the chance to do whatever content they want just for fun!

See how that works?

well if everybody can do it that means more people will enjoy the content i.e. more people staying = more money for a-net.
sure some elitist kittens will leave and find “challenging” games, but the gain will be much more than the lose.

so instead of grinding for some stupid mini they can play and enjoy the content.

There’s plenty of content for “everybody” to enjoy. You call the mini “stupid,” but your post calling for rewards to be removed from hard content, specifically Liadri, betrays what you really think.

you know what you used to do? you used to handicap yourself on games for a challenge, you didn’t get achievements, you didn’t get rewards, all you got was satisfaction.
would i do the queen’s gauntlet if nothing was tied to it? maybe a little just to try, i killed most bosses in 1 or 2 tries just had to change things around.
would i have tried to beat liadri if nothing was tied to her? hell no, that boss is broken and rage inducing and requires a lot more luck than actual skill.

but you did hard content cuz you found it fun, and not for something to shove in the face of others, because you run some zerk build and can nuke these regular mob enemys down in 10 seconds.
there are very few actual skilled players wanting to do content because its challenging, and not because they feel entitled for a reward to shove in the face of others.

Dagraan.2854:

there are very few actual skilled players wanting to do content because its challenging, and not because they feel entitled for a reward to shove in the face of others.

There is nothing wrong with having a reward to shove in the face of others.

Dagraan.2854:

there are very few actual skilled players wanting to do content because its challenging, and not because they feel entitled for a reward to shove in the face of others.

I dunno, a lot of people that I know who did Light Up The Darkness did it to challenge themselves (and complete all the LS achievements), not because they wanted to brag about it.

Julie Yann.5379:

Wethospu.6437:

Julie Yann.5379:

Wethospu.6437:

Just wondering am I considered entitled when my weaponswap gets a cooldown whenever I throw an orb because of a bugged Warrior trait?
Lots of complaints are based on stuff like this. If they are designing frustrating fights (with steep penalty for small mistake) they really should ensure that their incompetency doesn’t add an extra layer of frustration.

I unless you are trying for the 8 orb achievement the weapon swap but bug doesn’t affect you since the only attacking you need to do in phase 1 are the vortexes and even if there location is random their respawn time isn’t.

Since there is no visible post counter could you at least try to put some effort in your posts? Because I really don’t understand what you are trying to tell me there. Are Fast Hands and vortexes somehow related?

If you aren’t going for the 8 orb achievement the only time you throw the orbs is in phase 1. The only thing that’s needs to be destroyed in phase 1 are the vortexes. Once you know the timing, you are never caught with your weapon swap on cool down. Once you hit phase 2 you don’t throw any more orbs and basically range for the rest of the fight and don’t really swap weapons anyway. Yes, it is bugged and Anet should fix it but they won’t.

This is off-topic but could you please explain your logic to me?
I have a problem (Fast Hands). You acknowledge that it applies to case A (8 orb) but doesn’t apply to case B (normal).
Wouldn’t it make more sense to assume that I’m talking about case A?

You know what the real problem is? MMO’s, by the virtue of how they are designed, don’t offer many ways of actually presenting true skill based content.

What we get instead is hallmark of MMO challenge, artificial difficulty.

Skill based gameplay rewards you constantly. Every attempt imparts a tangible sense that you are improving, driving you to try again and again to do a little bit better.

Artificial difficulty doesn’t give you any of that. Instead, the player feels like the challenge is impossible, or reserved for those who know a few key tricks.

Artificial difficulty rewards only a small minority of players. The elitists who will throw themselves at something that isn’t as much fun as it is frustrating. These players, with masochistic glee, endure cheap, poorly designed mechanics for the satisfaction of being able to declare themselves superior to the witless masses, the lowly casuals who aren’t willing to put in the same amount of sacrifice.

I dislike Liadra for not being able to one-shot the orb with ranged because it is bugged. This caused a number of unfortunate deaths for me, due to the orb pulling me into the aoe. And that is only the bug, not talking about gimmicky already mentioned by others in this thread (camera angle, hard to see aoe with the floor texture etc.). Next to that I would like for challenging content to not be temporary. I might not be good enough to finish it now, but I might be good enough at some point later on!

Other then that I did not kill her yet and I don’t want the rewards because of that and I do not feel entitled to them. But bugged challenging temporary content, yes I can see why people are complaining. But there are still a few weeks to go, so finger crossed for a hot-fix!

I can accept if I can’t beat something because I’m not good enough. However, I draw the line when that difficulty comes solely in 2 versions: oneshot-kill and permastun.

Remove those things from play and I won’t complain if I can’t beat stuff.

But please ArenaNet, for all gamers sake, fire the guy who thinks that’s the ultimate form of game design.

@Esya This is why I like beam attacks.

I think another issue at hand here is that “skill” in this game is different from tradtitional mmorpg content. Having relatively tight timers to perform a dodge or some other means to negate the damage or die is completely different from the kind of skill required in other games, it is much more action based and requires reaction timing. Any of the forum goers that actually read through them have probably seen the argument for using berserker stats in pve since mitigation in this game actually refers more to completely negating damage versus allowing damage to hit but be reduced as in other games. I think what happens is that people come here expecting the same types of rules to apply to this mmorpg as it does in other less action based versions and they simply don’t translate well. The only way to really improve here is by memorizing patterns and knowing when to press that dodge button or drop a reflect etc etc to completely negate the damage. You don’t improve your bag of tricks very much beyond level 30 in this game, whereas in other games you continue to receive new skills throughout the entirety of the leveling process, some of those skills can be complete game changers if used in the correct timing or against the correct mob, here the only skills that fall into that category are ways to completely negate incoming damage the primary being dodge and that is available from level 1. Some people simply don’t have the reflexes or computer rigs that allow them to play competitively for this type of environment and they don’t wan’t to be left out because there is simply no other way to improve your game than those basic requirements. There is no strategy needed, just dodge and then do as much damage to your target as you can before needing to again negate your incoming potential damage completely in some way, it makes for very one dimensional game play, and it won’t be a perfect fit for everyone.

Wethospu.6437:

Just wondering am I considered entitled when my weaponswap gets a cooldown whenever I throw an orb because of a bugged Warrior trait?
Lots of complaints are based on stuff like this. If they are designing frustrating fights (with steep penalty for small mistake) they really should ensure that their incompetency doesn’t add an extra layer of frustration.

Dunno if it changed, got fixed, got worse, or whatever since I left, but is it the same bug that causes the 5s cooldown when doing the Jade Maw and picking up the Crystals? Because I’ve found that when I’ve got that cooldown on, I can actually still use my hotkey to weaponswap, and it completely ignores the bugged cooldown.