Guild Wars 2

I like platformers but I found the mechanics of GW2 never did JP any favours.
I also don’t like when things are developed in a way that you are fighting the system rather than a genuine challenge.

“Oh, let’s see, I’m suppose to jump on this little crevasse that wouldn’t realistically hold my character, so I have to figure out where the invisible collision detection starts and ends so I don’t fall off, all while fighting a platform unfriendly camera system.”

Got a mes port, got mastery point, won’t bother ever again.

I think that there could be hidden checkpoints that are required for progress but you can’t actually port to when you die. I can log out right before you normally would activate the first checkpoint. I log back in after the daily, go to the checkpoint, and no credit. I’m thinking that there’s another checkpoint somewhere in that lava tunnel you enter. If that’s true then perhaps there are others.

Ayrilana.1396:

I think that there could be hidden checkpoints that are required for progress but you can’t actually port to when you die. I can log out right before you normally would activate the first checkpoint. I log back in after the daily, go to the checkpoint, and no credit. I’m thinking that there’s another checkpoint somewhere in that lava tunnel you enter. If that’s true then perhaps there are others.

There is one on the skull on the left right before the lava fall that leads to the plane of the main caldera.

^ With the amount of invisible walls in this game, invisible checkpoints shouldn’t have been a surprise. :/

Boogiepop Void.6473:

Ayrilana.1396:

I think that there could be hidden checkpoints that are required for progress but you can’t actually port to when you die. I can log out right before you normally would activate the first checkpoint. I log back in after the daily, go to the checkpoint, and no credit. I’m thinking that there’s another checkpoint somewhere in that lava tunnel you enter. If that’s true then perhaps there are others.

There is one on the skull on the left right before the lava fall that leads to the plane of the main caldera.

You’re right. I just verified that it was a checkpoint. I also noticed that we can’t get the checkpoints out of order so if we miss one then none of the others will work including opening the chest. So while the checkpoints do help, like the OP said, they can also hold a player back if one is missed.

They had to make the checkpoints mandatory because people were cheating with teleports to friend trains.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

They had to make the checkpoints mandatory because people were cheating with teleports to friend trains.

And the developers cheated with dishonest geometry.

What they need to do is visually cue “working terrain.” If they intend to have some little nudge of terrain something you can stand on, then they need to put a little rock there, one that you can see from a distance exists as a practical ledge, and its hitbox needs to be large enough that you don’t have to be pixel-perfect to land on it.

If a player is grinding up and down against a seemingly flat wall, then he’d kitten-well better be doing it because that’s how he enjoys himself, and not because if he does it just so he’ll end up standing on a platform (while every other attempt will lead to him sliding back down).

Sartharina.3542:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

They had to make the checkpoints mandatory because people were cheating with teleports to friend trains.

And the developers cheated with dishonest geometry.

Absolutely!!!!!!!

I still have not completed it yet. But after every attempt I get a little further. Meanwhile I was able to watch that famous “behind the scenes” video. From my understanding, the goal was to create a JP with maximum scales. Maximum difficulty on every parameter. I think they unlocked that achievement for themselves.

But I do not like it. It is definetly the most ugly puzzle I ever set foot in. The mapping is … skulls, rocks and lava. A good jumping puzzle has some sort of atmosphere. There is nothing inside. There is not a single spot where you really want to take a break and enjoy the view or the background sounds. Instead of using environment-based mechanics we are limited to gliding masteries in order to proceed. A volcano, with so many sources of temperature, pressure and updraft-sources. We could have had mechanics as with the skipping stones from southsun cove. Or a hot dust trap-mechanic, like we have seen in the aetherblade hideout. You could have used a mechanic to let us wet ourselves with water, so we resist walking in the lava for a few seconds (leidenfrost effect). You could have added skritts who help you inside the volcano with services, like a giant slingshot that catapults people across the crater instead of using the gliding/leaning stuff.

I love jumping puzzles, I do them a lot. I do tours through several ones nearly every day and try to get even the hard ones on my schedule, as they deserve to be played. Every JP in this game deserves to be played frequently. It was a huge work to create them and each has its own atmosphere which attracts you.

But the Chalice of Tears is the first JP I do not feel an urge to play at all. “Well then don’t play it!” – I can hear you arleady. Maybe …

The JP in SW took me 4 hours to complete, with no guide, the first time. It was disappointing to pick the wrong skritt holes, but there was a nice, peculiar atmosphere that pushed me to go on. Later on I had to do it again while looking for the coins.

Chalice of Tears is not like that. I tried it a few times the first days, I failed miserably to land anywhere that looked like I could, and after several attempts I gave up. You can only see lava and rocks, not intriguing and no fun in the least. In my opinion, it is a sadistic project for all masochists to enjoy. Sick and tired of dying in that lava, I won’t bother with it ever again.

Sartharina.3542:

And the developers cheated with dishonest geometry.

I’m with you there. The JP could have been challenging, but with a clear direction to go. Take the JP in FotM. Yes it’s easy, but the point about it was that you knew which direction to go, and could actually see platforms. Chalice of Tears has both blind jumps and hidden landing spots that look like you shouldn’t be standing on in the first place.

And I didn’t even know the steam vents were checkpoints. I feel bad for all the players who don’t use Dulfy’s guides. Once they got to the end, no achievement or chest because one or more of the vents weren’t walked over.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Sartharina.3542:

And the developers cheated with dishonest geometry.

I’m with you there. The JP could have been challenging, but with a clear direction to go. Take the JP in FotM. Yes it’s easy, but the point about it was that you knew which direction to go, and could actually see platforms. Chalice of Tears has both blind jumps and hidden landing spots that look like you shouldn’t be standing on in the first place.

And I didn’t even know the steam vents were checkpoints. I feel bad for all the players who don’t use Dulfy’s guides. Once they got to the end, no achievement or chest because one or more of the vents weren’t walked over.

I’ve done the JP several times and the only one that I have seen pkayers being able to actually skip is the second one after you enter the main lava area and reach the first slanted platform. If a player doesn’t know the the vents are checkpoints, as you’ve stated, they can go halfway up that platworm and get over to the next without activating the vent.

If Anet is checking to see which ones players are missing, and it’s always that one, perhaps the vent should be moved further down that platform.

You know if any of you guys still need any of the tokens and/or the achievement at the end of the jumping puzzle, feel free to add me to your friends list. If you see me on, poke me/whisper me. I’ve done portals up the jumping puzzle (going checkpoint to checkpoint) for about 20 different groups now searching the LFG/map chat. Just a heads up I am U.S server (so no EU ports unfortunately).

Tl;Dr – Add me, ask for Ember bay JP help (or token help). My mesmer is more than happy to help.

hardy.7469:

I like platformers but I found the mechanics of GW2 never did JP any favours.
I also don’t like when things are developed in a way that you are fighting the system rather than a genuine challenge.

“Oh, let’s see, I’m suppose to jump on this little crevasse that wouldn’t realistically hold my character, so I have to figure out where the invisible collision detection starts and ends so I don’t fall off, all while fighting a platform unfriendly camera system.”

Accurately defines one of my major issues with jumping puzzles, and occasionally, exploration in general…

Verifying that Deadlypixel is one of the bestest people ever. S/he ran a number of groups through the JP/tokens today that I know of, with endless patience and kindness. There’s a little less pure evil in the Chalice now.

Ohoni.6057:

A puzzle that relies on “Trial and error” is poorly designed.

agreed. Any good JP, you should be able to use intelligent reasoning to determine the correct next jump before you make it. If something looks right but turns out to be impossible or auto-kill you, then that’s not good gameplay, it’s just needlessly cruel.

I agree and that’s the only thing I don’t like about this JP – as you said all jumps should be deducable with careful thought, not trial and error – killing your character each time and restarting from a checkpoint.

On that note, the checkpoint system made this JP much easier. I think that Troll’s Revenge, Skipping Stones and Scavenger’s Chasm are much harder (oh and mad king’s clock tower).

Sartharina.3542:

There are three major problems I see with the JP:
1. Geometric Disconnect – What you see is not what you get. There are visible ledges that punt you off, and slopes that don’t. People keep comparing this to SAB tribulation mode – but from what I’ve seen of that (I ran all of world 1 tribulation mode, but world 2’s length put me off), at least SAB has clean jumps (Aside from “GOTCHA” traps) – Every point you can stand on is flat, and jumps that require awkward positioning have a bevel indicating such. To get through Chalice of Tears, you have to use map-breaking jump techniques.

Anet loves their dirty ledges. Those ledges that look legit, but fling you off if you dare land on them. Also, the ledges, where you can land on them fine, but if you dare try to walk up them or you land on them with any kind of horizontal momentum, you will suddenly be flung in the downwards direction and start sliding uncontrollably.

The worst part is Anet, just loves to use these dirty ledges to create difficulty. SAB’s visual design pre-empted such ledges. But if you look in the silverwastes, that one kitten upwards tightrope climb (Gold badge #30) (I did that one by doing a bunch of hops up the rope making sure to stop horizontal movement before landing)… they seem to do it on purpose, use some of the shoddiest parts of their movement mechanics to make something ‘hard’.

Then there are the ledges that are so thing that you slide off, unless you keep on moving ‘up’ them (or against the wall) after you have landed on them. That is the opposite to the ledges that fling you off when you walk on them, and is just one more piece of trial and error to get through.

And against it all, the slope going up to the wyvern cliffs in the verdant brink map, is so steep that if I saw it in a jumping puzzle it would clearly be an invalid surface to land, on. But for this one instance, it is rock solid ground to move and bunny hop on all day long, no sliding or getting flung off at all.

Anet’s player movement and physics systems is just so… so bi-polar. You first have to meet every single platform and shake hands, then you have to ask them how they are and bring up some small talk to judge how they feel. Then you have to have them introduce you to their family (the walls that they attach to). Finally after learning about them and their temperament and family, then you can proceed to cross them.
There is just so much complexity to have to consider for each and every ledge you stand on, it seems so, so, silly.

Eh, don’t mind me just ranting on GW2 terrain geometry.

Once you understand the personality of all the parts of the jumping puzzle, it ain’t too bad (especially with the checkpoints). Not that you won’t go flying off the edge a lot for one random reason or another.

I tried to do this without a mesmer. After falling (Slipping) for the 1001th time, I gave up and brought on my JP Mesmer. Portal all the way up to get the mastery. Sweared NEVER to go back there every again.

I would take the Silverwaste map wide JP anyday, than this bs JP which purposely make lots of places slippery and if you missed something, you have to start all the way back or just suicide and spawn at the checkpoints. And not everytime you spawn. If you didn’t spawn, you have to start from the start AGAIN……….

I’ve “done” this JP twice (once on day one with a TP to Friend for the mastery, once with my mesmer to get the tokens) I’ve spent upwards of 15 hours in those attempts, due to map closures, disconnects, random unexplained loss of check points, etc.
I hated it pretty thoroughly, but it could have been made about 70% less frustrating by following the SW JP design and having a visual indicator of what checkpoint you’re on, and having them persist through disconnects or instance changing (wipe them if you leave the JP or map, no big deal, give them a 12 hour time limit even, so you have to do it in one shot, but can go to the bathroom or take a snack break, or just not be screwed by playing in off peak hours and having the map depopulate while you’re on a multi-hour struggle.)
Don’t change the lying geometry, the blind glides or any of the other hateful false difficulty if it’s got to be “nintendo-hard”, just save people from rage-quits.

I got to the last checkpoint and to the last thingy you climb up, Well i disconnected and because it resets the whole kitten thing wasnt worth continuing. I’m going to have a break till next episode comes out and maybe return then. Daily disconnections and constant network errors are driving me out of the game.

I have done this puzzle this weekend. And I have some input on it:

• it isnt hard, actually this puzzle is pretty easy as long as it comes to actual jumps BUT
• this is not a jumping puzzle. It has very little to do wich jumping like old puzzles/fractal puzzle/mad king tower. Untill after 4th checkpoint its more: ‘where the * should I go now’. Doing it without guide is pain, not because its hard, but because there are almost no indicators where to go next when you have to glide to the other side of the map.
• this puzzle is very glitchy. At first I thought its just me being bad or going wrong way but after looking at dulfy’s vid I have found out that its desinged way and you have to be extra careful not to fall from rock just because there are little unaccesible places on them and one wrong move can make you fall all the way down just because. I failed a lot of glide parts not because I was gliding too low or something but because my character just slipped down where my friends did it properly just because they landed 2 pixels closer. Or jumped right after landing.
  like these parts https://youtu.be/EsN2W8z77yA : 4:18, 4:32, 7:30 or my all favourite at ~9:00

So… imho its worst puzzle in game, has very little to do with jumping and requires more of thinking where to go without good indicators. Its not fun but annoying cuz of how glitchy it feels. The last part, after 4th checkpoint feels like JP and could be fun if not for all previous annoying parts. After all whole JP took me like 1h, first 20mins I spent trying to figure out way by my own and then I just gave up and followed a guide. It was 1st puzzle I did with guide, sometimes I used guides to find entrance but after entrance I was doing it on my own, this one is just stupid.

The dulfy guide seems to use some suboptimal strats to get up there in some cases. There are far more consistent ways to get these jumps. The part at 9:00 has at least 3 starts, 2 include gliding. One of those needs not only gliding but also a leapskill.

Well in the end I have been doing it with dodgejumping which was most consistent for me. Still place like that should never exist, the gap between rocks has really small space you dont slipp off. And jumping out of it to higher platform is harder just because you slipp all the time

I can’t even get to the start point. ..

Thank goodness for a friendly Mesmer. She put on a tag, invited all in chat to join, ported all to every checkpoint and token, then to the end.
Done with it.

I always hated that they’re called Jumping Puzzles, because that implies that with wit or intelligence you can beat it. You can’t. lts not a puzzle, its an ordeal, a challenge. You win either by luck, skill, or sheer force of repetition and trial and error.

The name of this puzzle needs to be changed to:

“Mesmers Only”

At least two are suggested. That way if one makes it across a hard section you can just port the other and leapfrog your way through the puzzle.

This way ports are useful for more than just recovering a fall.

You can easily jump everything with every profession as long as you know where to jump. For me it takes ~6:45-7:15 to finish it with my ranger.

I decided to bite the bullet and make a serious attempt at it last night. In general I don’t like using “spoiler” videos but I knew I would have no choice with this one. So with the help of Dulfy I got to the start of the JP after a few attempts. I fairly quickly got to the second waypoint (I’m counting the first one as the one where you first reach the large lava “room”). And that was it. After 10 minutes I was down to my underwear, having already died countless times. After about an hour I was still there. I felt to have got a reasonable way into the puzzle but not far enough to reach the next waypoint so I just kept dying and dying and dying.

I’m a Norn and some of the camera angles were dreadful so I sometimes just fell off ledges. Other times there seemed to be a slight lag in the glider deploying which meant I was immediately too low to make the glide. So whilst I would really like that mastery point I suspect it is one that will remain out of reach for me unless I happen upon a very patient mesmer or two.

I felt to be mostly undone by the clunky controls and cameras rather than by the puzzle difficulty itself. Turns out some of us cannot “easily jump everything”…

On a brighter note at least I unlocked that last map point so I can complete the map now.

DoctorDing.5890:

I decided to bite the bullet and make a serious attempt at it last night. In general I don’t like using “spoiler” videos but I knew I would have no choice with this one. So with the help of Dulfy I got to the start of the JP after a few attempts. I fairly quickly got to the second waypoint (I’m counting the first one as the one where you first reach the large lava “room”). And that was it. After 10 minutes I was down to my underwear, having already died countless times. After about an hour I was still there. I felt to have got a reasonable way into the puzzle but not far enough to reach the next waypoint so I just kept dying and dying and dying.

I’m a Norn and some of the camera angles were dreadful so I sometimes just fell off ledges. Other times there seemed to be a slight lag in the glider deploying which meant I was immediately too low to make the glide. So whilst I would really like that mastery point I suspect it is one that will remain out of reach for me unless I happen upon a very patient mesmer or two.

I felt to be mostly undone by the clunky controls and cameras rather than by the puzzle difficulty itself. Turns out some of us cannot “easily jump everything”…

On a brighter note at least I unlocked that last map point so I can complete the map now.

If you would like, I would be happy to help you through the JP for the mastery. Feel free to add me, and message me if you ever see me on. (I am currently in EU servers right now, but on Saturday Morning I will be back on US, so pending which server you are leave me a mail/message just incase you don’t see me online sometime soon if you’re EU).

Many of the JPs in the game are a major problem for Norns and Charrs because of the close in camera occlusion problem.
Whether this is fixable or not I dont know , but if not future JPs need to be tested with Norns to make sure they can be done.

You can fix this problem for yourself if you enable 1st person camera and learn to jump with that. It helps quite alot.

Tornupto.2304:

You can fix this problem for yourself if you enable 1st person camera and learn to jump with that. It helps quite alot.

Or use a tonic that allows you to jump. I believe there’s those inquest tonics you get from one of the dungeons that can be used to make yourself an Asura.

Guild tried to do this. Full part of 5 mezmers on voice chat and using dulfy. STILL COULDN’T EVEN GET TO THE SECOND CHECK POINT.

Boogiepop Void.6473:

Guild tried to do this. Full part of 5 mezmers on voice chat and using dulfy. STILL COULDN’T EVEN GET TO THE SECOND CHECK POINT.

If you want help and are playing on EU you may send me an ingame mail or sth. I will try to help you.

The Chalice of Tears is filled with yours.

That work for a slogan?

Glad I used T2F stone before they stopped it from working. I hate JP’s like this.