Dont Nerf Zerk Meta
So when you read LFGS “zerker exp only” it translates into “I want as much gold as possible on my limited play time, don’t join if you are going to slow me down.”
My solution: Along with the 24 hour time range/gate that is already in place, create a 30 minute time range where you can only earn 1 dungeon path reward and make the dungeon reward 5g.
What this does is it makes it so speed does not equal more reward.So you rather want to reward "Hurr Durr, I’m going to join a “Zerker only” party with my nomads gear to troll them" -people?
Actually yes. I interpret anet’s design philsophy as one where they want to promote players to be friendly and not toxic. If we remove speed = more reward from deungeons, i believe there will be less zerker only elitism in lfgs. And if lfg was more friendly towards casual players and beginners we can actually see the dunegon community grow at an alarming rate and in which case anet might want to support dungeons more.
You have got to be joking.
(edited by Fenrir.3609)
I would love to see something like 1x Sinister, 2x Givers and 2x Berserkers would be so much better.
And in the drive for faux diversity at best that would achieve nothing and at worse it would simply make the situation more annoying.
I think all the “zerker meta” threads are missing the most important point and what we should ALL be asking for united: Equal chance for all professions to be included on all types of content.
Neglecting gear stats is NOTHING if not super low priority compared to making all professions viable on all types of content. I’d rather see a discussion around making all professions equally important, rather than making specific gear stats more important (or nerfing others)
Where are the threads on this one instead? All I see are “zerker meta” threads instead, focus on the tree and miss the forest.
So when you read LFGS “zerker exp only” it translates into “I want as much gold as possible on my limited play time, don’t join if you are going to slow me down.”
My solution: Along with the 24 hour time range/gate that is already in place, create a 30 minute time range where you can only earn 1 dungeon path reward and make the dungeon reward 5g.
What this does is it makes it so speed does not equal more reward.So you rather want to reward "Hurr Durr, I’m going to join a “Zerker only” party with my nomads gear to troll them" -people?
Actually yes. I interpret anet’s design philsophy as one where they want to promote players to be friendly and not toxic. If we remove speed = more reward from deungeons, i believe there will be less zerker only elitism in lfgs.
Or instead of trying to join parties that have and ask for a different playstyle, you could be part of the solution and post “Path X All welcome” I see this a lot an I bet these groups probably don’t care what you run. Homogenized rewards seems like a poor idea. People would speed run a dungeon and start another and sit at the end until the timer ended then kill the boss for and ez 5g. Then do it again or farm else where while you facerolled to victory over the course of an hour in nomads.
I think all the “zerker meta” threads are missing the most important point and what we should ALL be asking for united: Equal chance for all professions to be included on all types of content.
Neglecting gear stats is NOTHING if not super low priority compared to making all professions viable on all types of content. I’d rather see a discussion around making all professions equally important, rather than making specific gear stats more important (or nerfing others)
Where are the threads on this one instead? All I see are “zerker meta” threads instead, focus on the tree and miss the forest.
I really hope that in the (not too) long run the elite specialisation will assure that all classes can fulfill all tasks with nearly the same efficiency: damage, control and support. The gear should strengthen the different roles and should be adjusted for different encounters. In the end it should not matter how your group composition is. With the right specialisations, utilities, gear and weapons each member can fill each role with high efficiency.
I remember the non-trash groups in the raids of LOTRO. They required a high level of coordination. You had to control certain mobs to prevent that they come close to you or close to other enemies. You needed skill-full controller to keep dangerous mobs under control.
I hope we will see similar clever designed mob groups in the coming challenging content that require that certain group member focus on certain tasks within this content. We do not need legion of trash mobs any longer. A smaller group of mobs with excellent AI would cause much more challenge and coordination especially if there group content for 10 or 15 players.
If only anet had told us that the game would have active combat. If only they told us ahead of time all characters would be DPS. If only they told us ahead of launch that there would not be any dedicated “tanks, healers and CC masters.”
If only.
OH WAIT..
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/guild-wars-2-has-no-healers-or-tanks
Please reply with apologies only.
Then were is my control gear or support gear?
Gear doesn’t determine playstyle. You pick gear based on how tanky vs glassy you want to be. If you want to play control or support you pick traits, weapons or utilities that further that goal. These are two seperate choices that are almost 100% independent of each other.
[DnT]::Nike::
www.twitch.tv/nike_dnt
www.twitch.tv/nike_dnt
If only anet had told us that the game would have active combat. If only they told us ahead of time all characters would be DPS. If only they told us ahead of launch that there would not be any dedicated “tanks, healers and CC masters.”
If only.
OH WAIT..
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/guild-wars-2-has-no-healers-or-tanks
Please reply with apologies only.
Then were is my control gear or support gear?
Gear doesn’t determine playstyle. You pick gear based on how tanky vs glassy you want to be. If you want to play control or support you pick traits, weapons or utilities that further that goal. These are two seperate choices that are almost 100% independent of each other.
Gear will stronger support and even open some playstyles in future. Keep in mind that traits will not longer provide longer boon and condition duration. This will influence some build and playstyles. It can even cause the use of different runes and stat combos to compensate it.
If only anet had told us that the game would have active combat. If only they told us ahead of time all characters would be DPS. If only they told us ahead of launch that there would not be any dedicated “tanks, healers and CC masters.”
If only.
OH WAIT..
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/guild-wars-2-has-no-healers-or-tanks
Please reply with apologies only.
Then were is my control gear or support gear?
Gear doesn’t determine playstyle. You pick gear based on how tanky vs glassy you want to be. If you want to play control or support you pick traits, weapons or utilities that further that goal. These are two seperate choices that are almost 100% independent of each other.
Gear will stronger support and even open some playstyles in future. Keep in mind that traits will not longer provide longer boon and condition duration. This will influence some build and playstyles. It can even cause the use of different runes and stat combos to compensate it.
Gear prefix will never be a determinant of playstyle. Want proof?
Which is the better healer…
1. Warrior with GS+Longbow with full CLERICS gear, 65003 traits and physical utility skills
or
2. Warrior with Mace/Horn full BERSERKER GEAR 00662 traits specced for shout heals and banner regen with 2 shouts and tactics banner as utilities?
As you can see, your weapon choice, traits and slot skills are what determines the style you play, not the silly prefix on your gear.
[DnT]::Nike::
www.twitch.tv/nike_dnt
www.twitch.tv/nike_dnt
Gear is just an optional supplement. If you want to use those extra supplements for your support builds you are free to do so. But dont expect the meta to go backwards when we can compensate for lack of healing power/boon duration through other means.
So when you read LFGS “zerker exp only” it translates into “I want as much gold as possible on my limited play time, don’t join if you are going to slow me down.”
My solution: Along with the 24 hour time range/gate that is already in place, create a 30 minute time range where you can only earn 1 dungeon path reward and make the dungeon reward 5g.
What this does is it makes it so speed does not equal more reward.So you rather want to reward "Hurr Durr, I’m going to join a “Zerker only” party with my nomads gear to troll them" -people?
Actually yes. I interpret anet’s design philsophy as one where they want to promote players to be friendly and not toxic. If we remove speed = more reward from deungeons, i believe there will be less zerker only elitism in lfgs.
Or instead of trying to join parties that have and ask for a different playstyle, you could be part of the solution and post “Path X All welcome” I see this a lot an I bet these groups probably don’t care what you run. Homogenized rewards seems like a poor idea. People would speed run a dungeon and start another and sit at the end until the timer ended then kill the boss for and ez 5g. Then do it again or farm else where while you facerolled to victory over the course of an hour in nomads.
People are reward driven.
http://www.twitch.tv/eco_r_i
Wynd Cloud | Fierce N Licious
Wynd Cloud | Fierce N Licious
Then were is my control gear or support gear?
Gear doesn’t determine playstyle. You pick gear based on how tanky vs glassy you want to be. If you want to play control or support you pick traits, weapons or utilities that further that goal. These are two seperate choices that are almost 100% independent of each other.
Now do they want me take hits or not!? I mean all this active combat talk and yet they intoduce tanking gear.
And please don’t start me on this “Gear doesn’t determine playstyle” nonsense. Take a look at entangle in a power and condition build. Same as necromancer scepter, offhand sword warrior and life blast in 0/6/4/0/4 terror builds.
EverythingOP
It doesnt determine it though. It only supplements it in certain ways.
Gear is just an optional supplement. If you want to use those extra supplements for your support builds you are free to do so. But dont expect the meta to go backwards when we can compensate for lack of healing power/boon duration through other means.
The same can be said about content. It shouldn’t be expected for the content to cater the current meta.
EverythingOP
It doesnt determine it though. It only supplements it in certain ways.
Let’s say you have this situation you used impale and after one 1 sec you realized that you’re only chance to pull it our is now or you will have to let stick for the remainder for the duration. As a zerker will you use rip? What if you are a dire user? I would pull out with zerker and leave it with dire. Same skill different playstyle all because of gear.
EverythingOP
It doesnt determine it though. It only supplements it in certain ways.
Let’s say you have this situation you used impale and after one 1 sec you realized that you’re only chance to pull it our is now or you will have to let stick for the remainder for the duration. As a zerker will you use rip? What if you are a dire user? I would pull out with zerker and leave it with dire. Same skill different playstyle all because of gear.
The choice of what to do was already made when you pick your traits, and when you chose your skills. Your example isn’t clever.
And that isn’t even a change of playstyle. In both examples you’re melee dps because you equipped a melee weapon that has no function other than DPS and blocks. It’s not like Rip becomes a healing skill the second you put on clerics gear. It’s not like the block skill gives team-wide Aegis when you equip Nomads. It’s melee dps. Period. How effective you are at outputting DPS it determined by your gear… but that’s what I’ve already said.
[DnT]::Nike::
www.twitch.tv/nike_dnt
www.twitch.tv/nike_dnt
Now do they want me take hits or not!? I mean all this active combat talk and yet they intoduce tanking gear.
I’m not sure where your confusion lies here tbh. They include non glass sets for a variety of reasons, non of which invalidate the thing you seem to be arguing against.
And please don’t start me on this “Gear doesn’t determine playstyle” nonsense. Take a look at entangle in a power and condition build. Same as necromancer scepter, offhand sword warrior and life blast in 0/6/4/0/4 terror builds.
And yet gear clearly does not determine playstyle, it supplements it.
Yeah i admit that was a poor example. However I can expand on that example. That was basically the worst possible composition and builds yet it wasnt that bad for time. If we had actually used proper strategies and stacked buffs with those terrible builds we would have saved 15 minutes easily.
The gap between berserker and other builds is not enormous. Its trivial. Its all the other factors that make the gap.
If that’s the case, then I still don’t get why people make such a big deal about zerker/meta setups. If the build and gear aren’t that great of a factor, then why are so many people so snobbish about it? Most pug groups don’t go trying to shatter time records, so how come people emphasize having zerker gear/meta build groups, over simply asking for people with adequate dungeon knowledge? The two aren’t necessarily directly related to each other.
Gear and AP are the common criteria because they can be checked/verified before the dungeon starts. Proper use of active skills and knowledge cannot be.
But my point is that neither of those are wholly representative of a player’s skill level and expertise. So what’s the point of having them judged as such?
They’re assuming there is a greater likelihood that a person wearing the gear they prefer thinks like them and wants the same things from a run that they do. It’s not a perfect indicator (or in the case of AP, not even a particularly accurate one). They’re substituting a criteria they can see before the run starts for one that can only be determined after seeing performance in one or more fights. Finally, people who are less than perfect themselves may not be the best judges of others’ skill. Anyone, though, can judge whether someone’s gear matches the LFG post or not.
What I’m getting at here is that the debate over zerker gear vs. other gear is either a big enough deal that the efficiency gap needs to be reduced, or it’s not a big enough deal, meaning that the toxicity that players express toward others over it is entirely unfounded and the scrutiny should be made based on factors that actually matter.
I’m completely okay with the zerker meta being how it is. My issue is that it is currently easy enough to run a full zerker team that adding one player with cleric’s gear actually makes it more difficult for everyone else. It should be a purely linear tradeoff between speed/efficiency and difficulty based on how offensively/defensively your team is geared, and the current lack of that is a sign of poor balance. Whether the primary cause of it lies with the gear disparity, or flawed mob AI and dungeon design, or a combination of the two, is up for debate.
Now do they want me take hits or not!? I mean all this active combat talk and yet they intoduce tanking gear.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zone
Even in dungeons zerk was not always meta. For quite some time people were running tanky gear in dungeons. That is before they learned how to play.
Now do they want me take hits or not!? I mean all this active combat talk and yet they intoduce tanking gear.
They give you a choice based on how confident you are and how proficient you evaluate your own capabilities as a player.
You feel very confident and think you know the ins and outs of certain encounters? You can take offensive gear.
You don´t feel proficient enough to beat a certain encounter without additional passive defense? You can take defensive gear.
And anything in between of course.
And please don’t start me on this “Gear doesn’t determine playstyle” nonsense. Take a look at entangle in a power and condition build. Same as necromancer scepter, offhand sword warrior and life blast in 0/6/4/0/4 terror builds.
I think you are confusing gear (weapons, armor, trinkets, runes and sigils) with stats.
Stats or stat sets (i.e. Berserker´s, Sinister, Cleric´s etc.) do not determine your playstyle (the way one approaches certain aspects of the game) apart from maybe direct damage vs. conditions. Gear in a broader sense of the word only has an impact when it comes to weapon choices and to a lesser extent when it comes to runes and sigils.
Let me spell it out for you again: Stats do not determine anything about your playstyle apart from which type of damage you deal, they largely determine how much you will have to rely on active defenses in combat.
When I play a S/F Ele build for example, the way I play it (which skills do I use, when do I use them, in which order do I use them, etc.) stays pretty much unaffected by my choice of stats, I will always play it as a S/F Ele.
Lets say I pick Valkyrie´s or Cleric´s stats instead of Berserker´s. The skill sequences will largely stay the same, as will my role in a party: Providing might and fury, conjure weapons for hard CC and burst damage, as well as on-demand blast finishers (for stealth e.g.), a long lasting projectile block and some healing if necessary.
All of those things that make up the S/F Ele build are determined first and foremost by my choice of weapons, traits, utility skills and to a certain extent by my runes and sigils.
The stat set of my choice determines the type of damage I deal and how much emphasis I put on passive defense at the cost of lower offensive capabilities or vice versa.
(edited by Skoigoth.9238)
Well my two cents on this is that even if zerker does get nerfed, I wouldn’t mind since I am not one for rushing content by killing people as fast as possible. I mean, I know that there are those who deal damage more than others, but if my reason for playing is making it through the dungeon as opposed to making it through in record time, I am not worried.
FOR SKYRIM!!!!!
There will always be a meta, and the people talking as though there is some solution that can be introduced so that there is less elitism are kidding themselves.
There is always going to be an optimal set up in PvE. All they can do is change with that optimal setup is. So, hold on to your karma, gold, and tokens and be prepared to buy a bunch of new armor to fit yourself into the new meta. Because there will be a new meta. Hopefully it won’t be a different meta for different dungeons, making it even harder for people who aren’t already geared and aren’t rich.
Tarnished Coast
Oolune :: Engineer — Arrow Of Oolune :: Human Ranger -- Shadow Of Oolune :: Human Thief
Box The Turtle :: Human Warrior — Bolobuns Of Steel :: Human Guardian
Oolune :: Engineer — Arrow Of Oolune :: Human Ranger -- Shadow Of Oolune :: Human Thief
Box The Turtle :: Human Warrior — Bolobuns Of Steel :: Human Guardian
Responses in italics.
What I’m getting at here is that the debate over zerker gear vs. other gear is either a big enough deal that the efficiency gap needs to be reduced, or it’s not a big enough deal, meaning that the toxicity that players express toward others over it is entirely unfounded and the scrutiny should be made based on factors that actually matter.
You’re basing this on the idea that maximum efficiency is the primary criteria that motivates the exclusionary PuG dungeon-goers. It isn’t. Convenience is. Efficiency matters, but is secondary to convenience. Players who want real max efficiency put a dungeon group together using their friends’ and/or guild list because they know the other players’ capabilities. If someone wants convenience, they use LFG. Because it’s more convenient to control group membership, they try to do so. Because it’s more convenient to do so before the run starts that’s when they do it using the only available criteria.
Changes to game mechanics will not change this. All a change will do is shift what the pre-run criteria are. That’s because it’s a human psychology issue.
I’m completely okay with the zerker meta being how it is. My issue is that it is currently easy enough to run a full zerker team that adding one player with cleric’s gear actually makes it more difficult for everyone else. It should be a purely linear tradeoff between speed/efficiency and difficulty based on how offensively/defensively your team is geared, and the current lack of that is a sign of poor balance.
Gear stats determine personal survival v. personal damage and the choice between direct and condition damage. That’s all. Profession choices and weapon/utility choices determine max efficiency. Want to know where the poor balance really is? It’s in the fact that Necromancers just don’t bring as much to the party for PvE group play as the other seven professions. Maybe Reaper will change this — maybe not
Whether the primary cause of it lies with the gear disparity, or flawed mob AI and dungeon design, or a combination of the two, is up for debate.
Sure, there’s a disparity between the efficiency of condition damage v. direct damage. There’s also a difference between the kill efficiency of glass stats over survival stats. What’s surprising is not that that’s so, but that some posters are surprised about it. Think about it. Higher damage stats kill mobs faster. Flawed? Really?
I’ll close with the same challenge I’ve posted in several of these threads. If the survival/damage numbers are off-kilter, then prove it with math. Remember to control the experiment by ensuring that stats from gear are the only variable. No one’s taken me up on it so far. I’d be surprised if anyone does, and more surprised if the numbers support the contention, because the observable facts don’t.
I like zerkers.
Most of the issues stem from the large disparity between the efficiency of damage stats and the efficiency of defensive stats. If the difference between full defensive stats and full Berserker is getting downed in three hits instead of two while dealing much less damage, then we get the current meta of using active avoidance (dodges, Aegis, etc) and to kill the boss before those resources run out. The high risk/high reward factor of Zerker’s doesn’t come into play if you can just completely eliminate the risk.
The best way to solve this, in my opinion, is to make enemies hit for less damage, but more often. Keep the big, telegraphed attacks that require actively avoiding, but make basic damage come in a steady stream that becomes harder to avoid, increasing the value of Toughness/Vitality/Regen/etc. Make using Zerker gear an active choice according to your skills as a player.
While we’re at it, drop the HP of bosses as well, to speed up the time to kill for groups that choose to gear a little more defensively. I feel like a large part of the emergence of the current meta is that bosses take so kitten long to kill if even one player isn’t running full damage gear.
Basically, look towards PvP for how PvE should function. Players have less health than bosses, hit faster but for less. Hence why we see Celestial/Soldiers/etc as more popular than Zerker, because the defensive stats come into play more.
It seems such a strange change from GW1, where PvE was an extension of PvP (to the point where ANet took meta builds and gave them to PvE enemies in GW: Beyond), to GW2, where the two modes couldn’t be more different in how they function.
Hopefully the AI improvements they’ve mentioned will bring the two closer together, because at this point the whole “stack and blitz” for dungeons and AFKing open world content has become rather stale.
Full defensive stats completely trivialise content in a different way to berserkers.
Most of the issues stem from the large disparity between the efficiency of damage stats and the efficiency of defensive stats.
False. No one has been able to prove this assertion. Have at it, if you want to hang arguments on the premise. Remember, though, that efficiency is different if what the stats do is different, so you cannot use kill time as your measure.
There is no berserker problem. -_- The problem is the meta has been so stagnant it’s divided the community like this. Look at any game, when a new meta comes out, it does take a while to spread in catch on usually, be it in Mobas, shooters, or RTS’s. It starts at the top (hardcore, theory rafters and the like, not knocking) , then slowly but surely works it’s way down to even the lowest level, that being the casual gamer.
The zerker meta problem is the simple fact that PvE has not changed at all. Heck, dark souls, tough as hell game, becomes easy after you’ve learned the enemy attack patterns from playing for a couple of playthroughs. I got to where I could solo ornstrin and smough in my sleep.
Now in gw2 the same problem is happening. Everyone knows when lupi is gonna do what, when the big attacks are coming, what you can dodge, what you can reflect, what you can block etc. etc.
Now, other problems, healing power is unrewarding as hell. Most things that scale off it do so at a horrible rate, and usually the base heal is pretty beefy in and of itself. So why would you? In addition, I play a dire necro in PvE when roaming…..yes strange, don’t worry I go soldier’s/zero when people call for it. Even though I can take a good beating eventually, I will run out of DS and out of dodges. So I will get hit, and when I do, it still hurts pretty bad. In short, your active defenses are limited. So you want to kill them as fast as possible before the boss gets in a nuke.
Then you have the whole stacking mess dungeons are. Really, I think this is the biggest, underlying cause of the whole thing. The game wants to reward you for staying close to and helping allies. So people stack up, and the bosses, having no more than a point A to point b mentality, don’t try to dodge or move out of the way of the burst that is going on in their faces, or try and draw you out and seperate you by finding cover. So people stack, get 25 might, perks fury, quickness and then just go to town, and if they see the boss wind up, make use of their active defenses like wall of reflection and blinding powder to avoid damage and keep attacking.
There are other things, some bosses being dps races, direct damage increasing traits, the condition cap, but those above problems are, I belive the biggest causes of this “zerker meta”.
A knight in shining armor is a man who never had his metal truly tested.
If you define PvE as dungeons and nothing but, sure.
I thought zerker “problem” occurs only in dungeons/fractals. In the progressive and tolerant open world everyone plays what they want.
Because open world is easy as kitten. You could play open world naked and you could get everything with no problem. Especially if you play with other players. ZERG 4 LIFE! I guess?
That reminds me of a guy who did a dungeon and failed at a boss. He and his friend change to zerk and suddenly they were able to kill the boss.
That doesn’t, however, mean much. There are plenty of reasons why someone might fail at something, and if your main problem is not having enough DPS, it’s hard to imagine zerker gear not helping.
You’re basing this on the idea that maximum efficiency is the primary criteria that motivates the exclusionary PuG dungeon-goers. It isn’t. Convenience is. Efficiency matters, but is secondary to convenience. Players who want real max efficiency put a dungeon group together using their friends’ and/or guild list because they know the other players’ capabilities. If someone wants convenience, they use LFG. Because it’s more convenient to control group membership, they try to do so. Because it’s more convenient to do so before the run starts that’s when they do it using the only available criteria.
Changes to game mechanics will not change this. All a change will do is shift what the pre-run criteria are. That’s because it’s a human psychology issue.
Gear stats determine personal survival v. personal damage and the choice between direct and condition damage. That’s all. Profession choices and weapon/utility choices determine max efficiency. Want to know where the poor balance really is? It’s in the fact that Necromancers just don’t bring as much to the party for PvE group play as the other seven professions. Maybe Reaper will change this — maybe not
Sure, there’s a disparity between the efficiency of condition damage v. direct damage. There’s also a difference between the kill efficiency of glass stats over survival stats. What’s surprising is not that that’s so, but that some posters are surprised about it. Think about it. Higher damage stats kill mobs faster. Flawed? Really?
I’ll close with the same challenge I’ve posted in several of these threads. If the survival/damage numbers are off-kilter, then prove it with math. Remember to control the experiment by ensuring that stats from gear are the only variable. No one’s taken me up on it so far. I’d be surprised if anyone does, and more surprised if the numbers support the contention, because the observable facts don’t.
Nothing that you’ve just said has any bearing on the fact that the toxic behavior that players express over gear types is completely unfounded if the gear is not the actual problem. If people were willing to stop being such kittens to each other, maybe there wouldn’t be such an issue with how other people choose to play the game.
Your challenge has no meaning to me, by the way. You need to look at and understand what I actually said before I’ll even bother imagining any sort of witch hunt you choose to throw at me.
That reminds me of a guy who did a dungeon and failed at a boss. He and his friend change to zerk and suddenly they were able to kill the boss.
That doesn’t, however, mean much. There are plenty of reasons why someone might fail at something, and if your main problem is not having enough DPS, it’s hard to imagine zerker gear not helping.
But it’s like you NEED enough people with zerker (or other types of damage) otherwise you will fail. Which isn’t the “philosophy” by anet about “play the way you want”.
That reminds me of a guy who did a dungeon and failed at a boss. He and his friend change to zerk and suddenly they were able to kill the boss.
That doesn’t, however, mean much. There are plenty of reasons why someone might fail at something, and if your main problem is not having enough DPS, it’s hard to imagine zerker gear not helping.
But it’s like you NEED enough people with zerker (or other types of damage) otherwise you will fail. Which isn’t the “philosophy” by anet about “play the way you want”.
Well you need damage to succeed right? Most damage comes from stats that’s why it seems restrictive, two types of damage exist here direct and conditions.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread
The Dhuumfire thread
That reminds me of a guy who did a dungeon and failed at a boss. He and his friend change to zerk and suddenly they were able to kill the boss.
That doesn’t, however, mean much. There are plenty of reasons why someone might fail at something, and if your main problem is not having enough DPS, it’s hard to imagine zerker gear not helping.
But it’s like you NEED enough people with zerker (or other types of damage) otherwise you will fail. Which isn’t the “philosophy” by anet about “play the way you want”.
No you don’t. You can do anything in PvE with whatever gear you want. There are videos out there where parties run Arah in clear gear without dodging once and they did fine. Hell, there’s even videos about people running dungeons naked. You don’t need zerker gear to be successful in PvE.
Anet didn’t lie to you when they said that you could play gw2 how you wanted to. Every gear is viable, even going naked.
Check the thing I quoted first.
Nothing that you’ve just said has any bearing on the fact that the toxic behavior that players express over gear types is completely unfounded if the gear is not the actual problem. If people were willing to stop being such kittens to each other, maybe there wouldn’t be such an issue with how other people choose to play the game.
Your challenge has no meaning to me, by the way. You need to look at and understand what I actually said before I’ll even bother imagining any sort of witch hunt you choose to throw at me.
Thats because it is unfounded in most cases.
People just use those requirements as a filter. Because if you dont filter you might get the worst of the worst in your group. People are reward driven. And no one enjoys having a disastrous experience with complete strangers.
If content was harder and wasnt 3 years old we wouldnt see such strict filters and requirements. Most people have done the content so much that they wont tolerate even a very small difference. So yes in the grand scheme of things the toxic behaviour is completely unfounded. But people have developed higher standards due to the stale content and meta.
Is it really so hard to believe that its a people problem and not a gear problem? Its not really surprising to me given the state of society in general.
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Nothing that you’ve just said has any bearing on the fact that the toxic behavior that players express over gear types is completely unfounded if the gear is not the actual problem. If people were willing to stop being such kittens to each other, maybe there wouldn’t be such an issue with how other people choose to play the game.
Your challenge has no meaning to me, by the way. You need to look at and understand what I actually said before I’ll even bother imagining any sort of witch hunt you choose to throw at me.
As to the first paragraph, above, it sure looks like you’re assuming that people would be more inclusive if gear was not a factor. I will guarantee you that that wouldn’t happen. If Anet were to put everyone in Celestial gear, no other options, there would still be exclusion. Those inclined to exclude would just use other criteria than gear.
As to the second… I guess I must be misinterpreting the statements you made to the effect that there is a lack of balance between cleric and berserker gear, and that there is a gear discrepancy that might be causing the perceived problem. If those statements don’t mean that you believe that there is a numbers issue with gear stats, what do they mean?
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Nothing that you’ve just said has any bearing on the fact that the toxic behavior that players express over gear types is completely unfounded if the gear is not the actual problem. If people were willing to stop being such kittens to each other, maybe there wouldn’t be such an issue with how other people choose to play the game.
Your challenge has no meaning to me, by the way. You need to look at and understand what I actually said before I’ll even bother imagining any sort of witch hunt you choose to throw at me.
As to the first paragraph, above, it sure looks like you’re assuming that people would be more inclusive if gear was not a factor. I will guarantee you that that wouldn’t happen. If Anet were to put everyone in Celestial gear, no other options, there would still be exclusion. Those inclined to exclude would just use other criteria than gear.
As to the second… I guess I must be misinterpreting the statements you made to the effect that there is a lack of balance between cleric and berserker gear, and that there is a gear discrepancy that might be causing the perceived problem. If those statements don’t mean that you believe that there is a numbers issue with gear stats, what do they mean?
My point is that it should never be easier to run a 5 zerker party as opposed to a 4 zerker and 1 non-zerker party, and yet that is exactly the case, particularly with bosses like the CoF P1 Slave Driver that essentially punish players that do not provide enough party DPS to end the fight before a wipe. Sure, it makes sense for a run to take longer with less damage, but it should never be more difficult at the same time.
Most of the issues stem from the large disparity between the efficiency of damage stats and the efficiency of defensive stats.
False. No one has been able to prove this assertion. Have at it, if you want to hang arguments on the premise. Remember, though, that efficiency is different if what the stats do is different, so you cannot use kill time as your measure.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/249pc7/effective_power_and_effective_health_of_all/
No one can prove it because it’s not true. Don’t expect them to try and math >.<
The best way to solve this, in my opinion, is to make enemies hit for less damage, but more often. Keep the big, telegraphed attacks that require actively avoiding, but make basic damage come in a steady stream that becomes harder to avoid, increasing the value of Toughness/Vitality/Regen/etc. Make using Zerker gear an active choice according to your skills as a player.
Protection + Weakness + Chill armor becoming more easily accessible = ~68% damage reduction which is stronger than going full toughness. Look at the above link, your “solution” to the “problem” won’t work. It’ll make a zerker players swap utilities/weapons but no decent player is going to go for toughness/vit when they can grab other stuff instead. I can blast water fields in zerker gear too to easily heal up any damage that goes through. If you think the “zerker elitist” are bad now… it’ll only get worst if this happens.
This has been mentioned before but I wanted to go into this a little more so I can better understand people’s positions. So, offensive stats (condi damage, power, ferocity, etc.) are currently allowed to modify active damage skills (weapon skills, trait procs, etc.). That is ok and understandable. Defensive stats (toughness, vitality, healing power, etc.) are currently not allowed to modify active defense skills (Aegis, protection, blind, blocks, evasion, etc.). This is where things seem unbalanced. Some say the purpose is to prevent invincible builds or create primary healers, and I believe that is part of it but certainly they’ve taken other measures to prevent those things as well. I have to wonder if it is the best approach.
Anet does not appear to be working on making more decision points around active defense skills through stats in the same way they allow that choice with offensive skills, but it is something that has bugged me for a long time. Consider in GW1 they allowed pretty much all skills to have a stat allocation decision to make those skills more effective. Different system, I know. But what GW2 aims for in combat balance has always been a work in progress. In GW2, they removed stat allocation as a decision point for the effectiveness of most defensive skills. The result is a highly valued defensive skill like Aegis is universally effective for someone with high damage output and low damage output and block skills absorb an infinite amount of damage for their duration no matter who uses them.
I think we’re a bit deep into the systems we have now, but I believe they would have benefited different play styles more if they gave active defense skills more ways to be effective. Traits can modify the effectiveness of some active defense skills, and that’s a good thing but it’s still not on par with the offensive skills because, again, stats modify active offense but not defense. My opinion at this point is that it was a good stop gap to prevent the return of the trinity, but it wasn’t an optimal solution. And I believe some of what people are criticizing the current meta for is a result of this. It’s tough to wrap your head around the idea that the designers have intentionally hamstrung your defensive build potential for their design goals but that is part of what is at issue here. I believe that even the meta enthusiasts have enough imagination to improve upon our existing design. No system is perfect. If ours were, there would be no need for a balance team or updates.
My point is that it should never be easier to run a 5 zerker party as opposed to a 4 zerker and 1 non-zerker party, and yet that is exactly the case, particularly with bosses like the CoF P1 Slave Driver that essentially punish players that do not provide enough party DPS to end the fight before a wipe. Sure, it makes sense for a run to take longer with less damage, but it should never be more difficult at the same time.
Why think that? Given the nature of glass gear, it makes perfect sense for the addition of one member who is under-contributing toward the intended tactic to increase difficulty. All that does is underscore the potential for risk in all-out damage and the thin margin between success and failure in some glass groups.
Look at the flip side. All-clerics parties have a very easy time. There’s even a video showing such a party doing an Arah path without using dodge at all. I believe one of the participants already linked it in this thread, but here it is again.
How many players not contributing to a sustain tactic would it take to make that experience harder? I doubt that anyone tested that. I also very much doubt one player not adding to the tactic would do it because there’s less risk in a sustain build.
This has been mentioned before but I wanted to go into this a little more so I can better understand people’s positions. So, offensive stats (condi damage, power, ferocity, etc.) are currently allowed to modify active damage skills (weapon skills, trait procs, etc.). That is ok and understandable. Defensive stats (toughness, vitality, healing power, etc.) are currently not allowed to modify active defense skills (Aegis, protection, blind, blocks, evasion, etc.). This is where things seem unbalanced.
While you may perceive imbalance, there is none.
Both defensive (chill) and offensive buffs (might) benefit only from the Boon Duration stat.
Mitigation actives like block and dodge are all-or-nothing defenses. There’s nothing to passively modify. They either worked or you mistimed them.
Power, Precision and Ferocity passively buff the damage produced by attacks. This is because they provide the variable component in the damage equation. Toughness provides the variable component in the mitigation part of that equation, while Vitality provides variable passive resistance to condition damage and to missed defensive actions. HP bolsters sustain.
The only real difference is that you choose to attack. Big whoop. That does not make attacking truly active. How active is it to use a #1 skill set on auto-attack? Hey, I pressed 1. That’s active! Not really. For the real active component to attacks in GW2, you’d need to look at rotations, positioning and set-ups (e.g., stun someone, then burst) which are available to all regardless of stat choice.
But it’s like you NEED enough people with zerker (or other types of damage) otherwise you will fail. Which isn’t the “philosophy” by anet about “play the way you want”.
You specifically brought up an anecdote about a group that apparently couldn’t clear content until they swapped to berserker gear. What you can infer from that is that that specific group in that specific situation was failing because they didn’t have enough DPS. It doesn’t follow that that’s a normal situation faced by every group.
The choice of what to do was already made when you pick your traits, and when you chose your skills. Your example isn’t clever.
Who said anything about traits? Not me. And my gear choice did decide how I use the skills I choose (which is my playstyle).
And that isn’t even a change of playstyle. In both examples you’re melee dps because you equipped a melee weapon that has no function other than DPS and blocks.
You do realize though that impale in itself has 900 range and is a projectile finisher?
It’s not like Rip becomes a healing skill the second you put on clerics gear. It’s not like the block skill gives team-wide Aegis when you equip Nomads. It’s melee dps. Period. How effective you are at outputting DPS it determined by your gear… but that’s what I’ve already said.
Did I ever say that it should become a healing skill, or an AOE aegis applier? No but how and why I use my skills (which is my playstyle) is dependant on what gear I have.If I’m in soldier I will use the block less because I don’t need it often, if i’m in rabid i will not use rip because I could use my time with other skills.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ZoneEven in dungeons zerk was not always meta. For quite some time people were running tanky gear in dungeons. That is before they learned how to play.
I reacted on an article about gw2 not dungeon meta. Also I donot have a problem that tanky gear exist but the article says that tanking would be replaced by control so why not have tanky armor boost that?
They give you a choice based on how confident you are and how proficient you evaluate your own capabilities as a player.
You feel very confident and think you know the ins and outs of certain encounters? You can take offensive gear.
You don´t feel proficient enough to beat a certain encounter without additional passive defense? You can take defensive gear.And anything in between of course.
All nice and well but why has the defensive gear have to be around tanking and not maybe around active defense (toughness increases the duration of your defensive skills)?
And please don’t start me on this “Gear doesn’t determine playstyle” nonsense. Take a look at entangle in a power and condition build. Same as necromancer scepter, offhand sword warrior and life blast in 0/6/4/0/4 terror builds.
I think you are confusing gear (weapons, armor, trinkets, runes and sigils) with stats.
I’m not, I was talking about how you use certain skills/weapons based on your stats. Necromancer scepter has a completely different playstyle with zerker gear then rabid (in zerker i’m to hit with skill #3 when my foe has much conditions while in rabid I’m using it a lot less). I will also use (or intend to use) life blast differently in a 0/6/4/0/4 terror builds with rabid than with carrion.
Stats or stat sets (i.e. Berserker´s, Sinister, Cleric´s etc.) do not determine your playstyle (the way one approaches certain aspects of the game) apart from maybe direct damage vs. conditions. Gear in a broader sense of the word only has an impact when it comes to weapon choices and to a lesser extent when it comes to runes and sigils.
Let me spell it out for you again: Stats do not determine anything about your playstyle apart from which type of damage you deal, they largely determine how much you will have to rely on active defenses in combat.
When I play a S/F Ele build for example, the way I play it (which skills do I use, when do I use them, in which order do I use them, etc.) stays pretty much unaffected by my choice of stats, I will always play it as a S/F Ele.
Lets say I pick Valkyrie´s or Cleric´s stats instead of Berserker´s. The skill sequences will largely stay the same, as will my role in a party: Providing might and fury, conjure weapons for hard CC and burst damage, as well as on-demand blast finishers (for stealth e.g.), a long lasting projectile block and some healing if necessary.All of those things that make up the S/F Ele build are determined first and foremost by my choice of weapons, traits, utility skills and to a certain extent by my runes and sigils.
The stat set of my choice determines the type of damage I deal and how much emphasis I put on passive defense at the cost of lower offensive capabilities or vice versa.
Largely stays the same? So there is ome difference to you playstyle based on your gear? Also will your role as burst damage still apply if you used nomad?
EverythingOP
Who said anything about traits? Not me. And my gear choice did decide how I use the skills I choose (which is my playstyle).
No your build traits/utilities decide your core “playstyle”, your gears stat prefix merely supplements that.
But it’s like you NEED enough people with zerker (or other types of damage) otherwise you will fail. Which isn’t the “philosophy” by anet about “play the way you want”.
You specifically brought up an anecdote about a group that apparently couldn’t clear content until they swapped to berserker gear. What you can infer from that is that that specific group in that specific situation was failing because they didn’t have enough DPS. It doesn’t follow that that’s a normal situation faced by every group.
Yea actually that remind me of doing dredge fractal with players on tanky/random builds we target a mob and it takes so long to chew trough that 200k hp silver mob
we get it down to 30% before we all get killed. Then i go with pro players and we just steamroll trough the whole sewer like its a walk in the park.
Those dredge hit the same dmg on the tanky players as the zerker mb 20% less dmg at most but at the expense of getting overrun and running out of cooldowns.
All nice and well but why has the defensive gear have to be around tanking and not maybe around active defense (toughness increases the duration of your defensive skills)?
Because GW2´s stat and combat systems are designed that way. I don´t know why the devs made these decisions. All I´m saying is that through stats they do give us the option to put emphasis on either increased passive defense or increased offensive capabilities and almost anything in between.
I’m not, I was talking about how you use certain skills/weapons based on your stats. Necromancer scepter has a completely different playstyle with zerker gear then rabid (in zerker i’m to hit with skill #3 when my foe has much conditions while in rabid I’m using it a lot less). I will also use (or intend to use) life blast differently in a 0/6/4/0/4 terror builds with rabid than with carrion.
What you describe here is exactly what I was trying to explain to you. The only thing stats do determine about your playstyle is which type of damage you deal. Direct damage vs. Condition Damage.
Necromancer scepter is always a mid-range condition based weapon and still is if you use Berserker´s gear. Life blast will always stay a mid- to close-range power based attack, even in condition builds using Dhuumfire. The difference between Rabid (condi stat set) and Carrion (hybrid stat set) in this context is marginal at best and not playstyle defining at all.
What defines your actual use of those skills is the overarching idea behind your build, your intended playstyle. Your stats only affect how effective it´ll be in the end and if you choose to put more emphasis on defense or offense.
Largely stays the same? So there is ome difference to you playstyle based on your gear? Also will your role as burst damage still apply if you used nomad?
First of all, let my clarify this. I´m in no way disputing that some stat combinations go better with certain types of playing the game. Apparently you didn´t read what I wrote very thoroughly. All I said is this:
Stats do not determine your playstyle. What determines your playstyle is your choice of weapons, traits, utility skills and to a lesser extent your choice of runes and sigils.
I´ll try to illustrate that once more. Lets take a different example, the current Phalanx Strength Warrior build. When I pick Nomad´s gear instead of Berserker´s, what impact would that have on the way I play this build? Nearly zero impact. I would still be using the same skills, in the same order and in the same situations as I would when wearing Berserker´s gear.
So what´s the trade-off then? What about my role in the party? Do I still bring my banners? Yes I do. Do I still bring Empowered Allies to the party? Yes I do. Do I still apply Vulnerability to increase overall party DPS? Yes but slightly worse. Do I still provide might for my party? Yes but worse. Can I still bring Fury, additional Vulnerability or CC to the party if needed? Yes I can.
So you basically trade a big chunk of your personal DPS and some of your offensive support capabilities for absolutely godlike survivability (trust me, a Warrior in full Nomad´s literally can´t die in PvE unless you are actively working towards it).
Sounds fair to me, but is it playstyle defining? Nope.
But what happens if you change some of the other aspects of the build? E.g. swap out Strenght Runes for something else, pick another melee weapon over Greatsword or pick Furious Reaction instead of Forceful Greatsword? The build would get significantly worse or falls apart completely and suddenly your PS Warrior isn´t a proper PS Warrior anymore.
Granted, things like removing the best GS trait from a GS driven build is an extreme example, but is it really THAT HARD to understand that it is not the stats but the combination of weapons, traits etc.etc. (aka the core of each and every build) what defines the way you play?
And that isn’t even a change of playstyle. In both examples you’re melee dps because you equipped a melee weapon that has no function other than DPS and blocks.
You do realize though that impale in itself has 900 range and is a projectile finisher?
You do realise warrior does not have a one handed ranged weapon. So regardless of whether sword offhand has one ranged skill or not, you are using a melee set.
(edited by spoj.9672)
wtb pistol for warrior elite spec!
I’m not, I was talking about how you use certain skills/weapons based on your stats. Necromancer scepter has a completely different playstyle with zerker gear then rabid (in zerker i’m to hit with skill #3 when my foe has much conditions while in rabid I’m using it a lot less). I will also use (or intend to use) life blast differently in a 0/6/4/0/4 terror builds with rabid than with carrion.
What you describe here is exactly what I was trying to explain to you. The only thing stats do determine about your playstyle is which type of damage you deal. Direct damage vs. Condition Damage.
What I am trying to explain to you is that stats change property of skills and these properties determine how you use skills.
Necromancer scepter is always a mid-range condition based weapon and still is if you use Berserker´s gear.
That’s where you are wrong the stats defines the skills in scepter. Scepter #2 in power is a utility skill for cripple while in conditions it becomes a damage skill with som utility. In power scepter #3 is a burst skill (this can reach up to 11k) with some utility while in condition it is a utility skill life force.
Life blast will always stay a mid- to close-range power based attack, even in condition builds using Dhuumfire.
Isn’t this called shooting into your own foot? You just said that using traits do not change the playstyle around skills with this one.
The difference between Rabid (condi stat set) and Carrion (hybrid stat set) in this context is marginal at best and not playstyle defining at all.
Yes, it is it determines whether or not I use life blast in the build. In rabid it does ~600 damage with a 1000 crit. In carrion it does ~1000 damage with a 1800 crit. This difference(partialy) determines wether or not I use this skill when I enter death shroud.
What defines your actual use of those skills is the overarching idea behind your build, your intended playstyle. Your stats only affect how effective it´ll be in the end and if you choose to put more emphasis on defense or offense.
What defines your actual use of those skills is the overarching idea behind your build, your intended playstyle. The traits only determine how effective it’ll be in the end and if you choose to put more emphasis on defense, offense, control or support.
First of all, let my clarify this. I´m in no way disputing that some stat combinations go better with certain types of playing the game. Apparently you didn´t read what I wrote very thoroughly. All I said is this:
First of all, let my clarify this. I´m in no way disputing that some trait /gear combinations go better with certain types of playing the game. Apparently you didn´t read what I wrote very thoroughly. All I said is this:
“Stats have a big influence in how you’re playstyle.”
Stats do not determine your playstyle. What determines your playstyle is your choice of weapons, traits, utility skills and to a lesser extent your choice of runes and sigils.
But the effectiveness of skills determines how I use them. Will I use block/dodges/reflects when I can out heal/last my foe? No. Will I use a healing skill of 3K on my allies when they lost 2K? No. Will I use a healing skill of 2K on my allies when they lost 2K? Yes.
I´ll try to illustrate that once more. Lets take a different example, the current Phalanx Strength Warrior build. When I pick Nomad´s gear instead of Berserker´s, what impact would that have on the way I play this build? Nearly zero impact. I would still be using the same skills, in the same order and in the same situations as I would when wearing Berserker´s gear.
So what´s the trade-off then? What about my role in the party? Do I still bring my banners? Yes I do. Do I still bring Empowered Allies to the party? Yes I do. Do I still apply Vulnerability to increase overall party DPS? Yes but slightly worse. Do I still provide might for my party? Yes but worse. Can I still bring Fury, additional Vulnerability or CC to the party if needed? Yes I can.
So you basically trade a big chunk of your personal DPS and some of your offensive support capabilities for absolutely godlike survivability (trust me, a Warrior in full Nomad´s literally can´t die in PvE unless you are actively working towards it).
Sounds fair to me, but is it playstyle defining? Nope.
Let’s say I remove forcefull greatsword and phalanx strength?What impact would that have on the way I play this build? Nearly zero impact. I will just have less might application (both personal and aoe) .
EverythingOP
But what happens if you change some of the other aspects of the build? E.g. swap out Strenght Runes for something else, pick another melee weapon over Greatsword or pick Furious Reaction instead of Forceful Greatsword? The build would get significantly worse or falls apart completely and suddenly your PS Warrior isn´t a proper PS Warrior anymore.
Berserker has more influence than strength runes ever will in a phalanx build.
Granted, things like removing the best GS trait from a GS driven build is an extreme example, but is it really THAT HARD to understand that it is not the stats but the combination of weapons, traits etc.etc. (aka the core of each and every build) what defines the way you play?
Strange you talk about how removing a trait from a greatsword is like removing the core of that build. But when you talk about precision it’s like nah it’s ok I still do what I do, even though forcefull greatsword, rending strikes, precise strikes and by assiocitaion attack of opportunity are mostly useless if you have no precision.
EverythingOP