Guild Wars 2

Yeah your a HoT fan boy, I can see. Numbers are irrelevant when it comes to having fun or not. You can throw all the numbers you want, fact is, a vast amount of people are unhappy with what HoT delivered. I still think EoTN was a better game. HoT has a good story, that about it for me.

You cannot measure fun You can make objective comparisons though between similar aspects of two games.

So.as I said, EoTN was better, it delivered more maps, fact.

That’s not a fact.HoT has more to DO on those maps than EotN ever did. That’s an actual FACT.

Eye of the.north added more sets of armor, yes GW2 has to put a lot more work in to there armor as we have 5 races, and we could count each races set as a unique set, but really we are just telling our self’s lies.

Then let’s count all Asura armors as one set right? Even if they are for different professions and look different. See how what you are saying is nonsense? EotN had more armor skins but how many WEAPON skins? Not even half of what we got in HoT, why are you only comparing Armor sets and not do a full comparison of skins we got? Oh I know because EotN would look terrible otherwise. Please stop deluding yourself and remove those rose tint glasses of yours.

BrotherBelial.3094:

maddoctor.2738:

Tapioca.9062:

Although, maybe that’s the answer to complaints that HoT is content light. Just add sixty new points of interest to each map. So much new content! Two-hundred and forty new points of interest. There’s your endgame right there.

And you know that’s similar to what GW1 did. Hey let’s add hundreds of new skills nobody will ever use because they are useless and say the game has lots of skills!

Na, the skills where not useless, some where just a lot better than others, same with traits, some are so much better than others why would you take them? So dose that make them worthless? So should we not count them? They are there, but never used, so they don’t count.

Every single Elementalist skill added in Factions was utter garbage. Every single one

And actually I was responding to the argument of “let’s add 60 pois on each map and call it content” with what GW1 already did with skills. Silly arguments cause silly comments.

Redfeather.6401:

Skills that truly did stink always had the possibility of seeing a game update change the functionality of the skill bringing it back into interest.

And some of those updates happened more than 3 years after the initial release And no the vast majority of GW1 actually didn’t see any kind of use

maddoctor.2738:

Redfeather.6401:

Skills that truly did stink always had the possibility of seeing a game update change the functionality of the skill bringing it back into interest.

And some of those updates happened more than 3 years after the initial release And no the vast majority of GW1 actually didn’t see any kind of use

Yeah, the functionality changes were very late in the game.
But as for the niche skills. What you believe isn’t going to change what is.

Redfeather.6401:

maddoctor.2738:

Redfeather.6401:

Skills that truly did stink always had the possibility of seeing a game update change the functionality of the skill bringing it back into interest.

And some of those updates happened more than 3 years after the initial release And no the vast majority of GW1 actually didn’t see any kind of use

Yeah, the functionality changes were very late in the game.
But as for the niche skills. What you believe isn’t going to change what is.

It’s irrelevant anyway I was responding to a different kind of argument with that. It wasn’t about the “main” discussion.

Raziel.4216:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Raziel.4216:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Most of those numbers make me laugh. WP, POI and vistas hardlyare things to find. How many POI’s are really interesting?last time I found an interesting POI was when I found what was left of GW1 LA, or ToA in Godlost swamp.

And how is that relevant? he’s comparing the exploration aspects of the game, were you amazed at every landmark in GW1? no, but they still count.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Traits yeah half the time I end up having to use traits I don’t want to use with this new system. GW1 system gave you far more choice.

EoTN had less active skills and you can’t possibly claim that adding stat points was “more choice” than choosing traits.
Still, numbers don’t lie and GW1 is far behind, the objective evidence is not on your side.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Skins, yeah EoTN reskined some armor, I’m sure.if we looked closely to the skins in GW2 we would find most where reskins also. Nothing hing wrong with that, but me personally most of the new skins in HoT are not great at all. Exalted are probably the best looking.

Noone claimed GW2 had no re-skins, the guy was comparing both games, without removing re-skins and HoT is still ahead.

Yeah your a HoT fan boy, I can see. Numbers are irrelevant when it comes to having fun or not. You can throw all the numbers you want, fact is, a vast amount of people are unhappy with what HoT delivered. I still think EoTN was a better game. HoT has a good story, that about it for me.

Calling those who don’t agree with you fanboys makes it less likely for anyone to take you seriously.
Numbers are relevant when people claim one expansion added a lot more content, numbers demonstrate if that’s true or not. The objective evidence is not on your side, feel free to provide some that favors your point, or simply accept that -dramatic pause- reality doesn’t agree with you.
It’s either numbers or everyone’s bellyfeelings, I’ll stick to numbers.

Like with a meal where the number and variety of vitamins, minerals and whatnot do not mean anything if it tastes awful (and yes, it can have tons of good stuff in it and still taste rotten) you cannot just disassemble anything into numbers and then claim that you understand it or have it properly analyzed. With things like games there is an emotional aspect as well and if you leave that aside and just concentrate on numbers your analysis is without meaning.

Same with cars – you can have great numbers with a car (miles per gallon, horsepower, accelaration, etc.) but if the form is not appealing noone is going to buy it – the great numbers nonewithstanding.

In addition some of the numbers are highly biased and questionable. The claim that revenant has more “skills” than the whole of GW1 for example. If so, then why does every revenant running Shiro with a hammer have the same 10 skills? Oh yes, the traits might be different – the skills are the same. The revenant example shows how misleading numbers can be as the revenant has 0 variation in its active skills – they are defined by your weapon and your legend. Your sole choice then is what key to bind the skills 6-0 to, but not which skills 6-0 to take because they’re set in stone.

In addition to that … I think there was a good reason why GW1 offered to save and load skill templates and why GW2 does not …

Number-wise GW 2 offers a lot more choices than GW 1 did. Just think of all the armor and their stats – that offers – on paper – far more combinations than GW 1 with its quite simplistic approach. If you take a look at viability, though, you’ll find most armor types (or rather the corresponding inscriptions and insigniae) to be lackluster.

As of lately condition based damage has finally become viable for PvE but well played zerker still rules.

So, anyway, disassembling something and just looking at the numbers isn’t working in most cases. Trying to understand how a pizza tastes by looking at its chromatography chart is a futile attempt.

HtFde.3856:

In addition some of the numbers are highly biased and questionable. The claim that revenant has more “skills” than the whole of GW1 for example. If so, then why does every revenant running Shiro with a hammer have the same 10 skills? Oh yes, the traits might be different – the skills are the same. The revenant example shows how misleading numbers can be as the revenant has 0 variation in its active skills – they are defined by your weapon and your legend. Your sole choice then is what key to bind the skills 6-0 to, but not which skills 6-0 to take because they’re set in stone.

Revenant has more skills than EotN not GW1 in total, that would be insane.

How is the number biased or questionable if it’s exactly the number of skill and traits you can use as a Revenant? Those are all the skills and traits available to a Revenant, of course most of them come in bundles and others must be on specific slots but that doesn’t reduce the amout of unique key presses available to a Revenant.

Funny how you say Revenant has zero variation in their skills and then you add that “they are defined by your weapon and your legend”, isn’t choosing legends and weapons a CHOICE done by the player?

maddoctor.2738:

HtFde.3856:

In addition some of the numbers are highly biased and questionable. The claim that revenant has more “skills” than the whole of GW1 for example. If so, then why does every revenant running Shiro with a hammer have the same 10 skills? Oh yes, the traits might be different – the skills are the same. The revenant example shows how misleading numbers can be as the revenant has 0 variation in its active skills – they are defined by your weapon and your legend. Your sole choice then is what key to bind the skills 6-0 to, but not which skills 6-0 to take because they’re set in stone.

Revenant has more skills than EotN not GW1 in total, that would be insane.

How is the number biased or questionable if it’s exactly the number of skill and traits you can use as a Revenant? Those are all the skills and traits available to a Revenant, of course most of them come in bundles and others must be on specific slots but that doesn’t reduce the amout of unique key presses available to a Revenant.

Funny how you say Revenant has zero variation in their skills and then you add that “they are defined by your weapon and your legend”, isn’t choosing legends and weapons a CHOICE done by the player?

PvP wise it is a bit of a nightmare … you see the rev you see the weapon and you know what you’re facing. Being able to add a bit of surprise would be nice … broadcasting what facetts you are using isn’t helpful either (if you run Glint) …

All this comparing HOT to EotN.
EotN was the remains of a campaign canceled before it was finished.
For example, it was originally planned to include new professions before the decision to release what they had started working on, and shift focus on working on a GW2.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_Utopia

maddoctor.2738:

You cannot measure fun You can make objective comparisons though between similar aspects of two games.

You can measure fun. Not objectively but we know what we find fun or not.

That’s not a fact.HoT has more to DO on those maps than EotN ever did. That’s an actual FACT.

More to do as long as you have other people wanting to do those things when you want too. Otherwise there is pretty much nothing you can do, or if you miss the start of some maps, you can’t really do that much. This is what makes EoTN better, you could do what ever you want, when ever you wanted. Not having to play to a time table.

let’s count all Asura armors as one set right? Even if they are for different professions and look different. See how what you are saying is nonsense? EotN had more armor skins but how many WEAPON skins? Not even half of what we got in HoT, why are you only comparing Armor sets and not do a full comparison of skins we got? Oh I know because EotN would look terrible otherwise. Please stop deluding yourself and remove those rose tint glasses of yours.

I said HoT would come out with more weapons, mostly by having more weapons to chose from from the start. You had all the unique weapons added by EoTN, then you had the sets from Vanguard, Norn, Asura, Dwarf and the end game set. Then you had the rare wepons that dropped from the dungeons, if we both could be bothered to sit down and look them all up, the weapons would probably be on par,

There are plenty of people who would agree that HoT did not deliver. I’m sure there are people who think HoT is the best thing ever. I don’t think HoT is a complete failure, but I really don’t think the quality of it was on par with what ANet have delivered in the past.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ok you want numbers, ANet claimed the maps would have 3 distinct biomes, they don’t. Lets look at VB, just incase they where only talking about that map.

You have the jungle floor, you have bits of canopy that you can only get to at night. The roots are non existent save for a few holes where HP are hiding. So the 4 maps they offer are not what they claimed, so that’s less content than they said we would get.on that map.

I can sure as hell go down while I glide, heck there’s some HPs down there.
Middle biome where you go to for most of the map.
And top during bosses, are we playing the same game?

BrotherBelial.3094:

AB, most of the map taken up by the city, which only has the octovine event happen in it, unless you have the mastery line for the tarnished traitor. This map is also really a single biome.map. As you can only gt to the underground bit one the meta is complete.

And this map is easily 4 EoTN maps in content, but please, by all means, continue ignoring actual numbers.

BrotherBelial.3094:

TD, now this map has 2 biomes, though the jungle floor is a lot smaller than the underground and broken up by massive holes and mountain’s. But again, no 3rd.

Three biomes, surface, underground and underwater.

BrotherBelial.3094:

DS, again really a single level map. Sure you can climb up thing and go under parts, you can do that in DHC in the core game, as well as MM. By what we have seen in HoT we should say those maps have 2 biomes.

And how many EoTN maps does this one have content-wise?
Again, if we go back to numbers…..

BrotherBelial.3094:

So.as I said, EoTN was better

Objective source? Nah that’s a matter of opinion, however…

BrotherBelial.3094:

it delivered more maps, fact.

But less content, this is not a matter of opinion, we have numbers

BrotherBelial.3094:

We could go down the lines or the HoT maps are bigger, but the simple fact is they feel a lot.more like GW1 maps where you have to go in the direction the map forces you, once you unlock the right masteries you is less of a factor.

Not just bigger in size, but also in stuff to do, also a fact.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Eye of the.north added more sets of armor, yes GW2 has to put a lot more work in to there armor as we have 5 races, and we could count each races set as a unique set, but really we are just telling our self’s lies.

Numbers don’t lie, you may like EoTN sets more, but they did not add more than HoT, another fact that, just like all the previous ones, do not support your position.

BrotherBelial.3094:

EoTN had a longer story.

Meassured how? provide your reasoning, numbers included please.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Sure we could say that the story of HoT is not finished, as we know at some point next year we will get the next part of the living story. But I don’t see that as part of HoT’s price tag

What matters is not what you count or not, LS3 is only available for those who bought HoT, therefore it’s included in the package, again, something that differs when we compare reality and what you claim.

BrotherBelial.3094:

that is content for player retention.

Like the last GW1 expansion content?

BrotherBelial.3094:

Every mmo adds content to keep there players. People saying we payed for a season pass are trying to justify the cost of HoT to them self’s. It’s why I’ve stopped buying single player games at launch. These days game get so much DLC added to them, that the initial coat of the game is not worth it, better off waiting for a game of the year, or complete collection, or a good steam sale. But I’m getting off track. HoT story was good, but short.

Your opinion, still not a fact.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Weapon skins, 5 sets plus how ever many individual skins, (I’m not including guild items in this as not every player will have access or want to be in a massive guild) EoTH and HoT are probably on par with this. Though HoT will probably take this one by the fact we have more weapons in GW2 than we did in GW1.

Not on par, once again, numbers don’t support your position.

BrotherBelial.3094:

I could go on, but I don’t want to wast anymore time on this, you have your views and you believe you are correct and I’m wrong, I feel nothing anyone says or arguments people put forward, you will stand by ANet. That’s your right to do so, and I can respect that.

I have my views, supported by numbers, I’ll change them the second numbers support another one because I’d rather stick to reality instead of bellyfeelings.
Your views contradict reality.

Raziel.4216:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ok you want numbers, ANet claimed the maps would have 3 distinct biomes, they don’t. Lets look at VB, just incase they where only talking about that map.

You have the jungle floor, you have bits of canopy that you can only get to at night. The roots are non existent save for a few holes where HP are hiding. So the 4 maps they offer are not what they claimed, so that’s less content than they said we would get.on that map.

I can sure as hell go down while I glide, heck there’s some HPs down there.
Middle biome where you go to for most of the map.
And top during bosses, are we playing the same game?

BrotherBelial.3094:

AB, most of the map taken up by the city, which only has the octovine event happen in it, unless you have the mastery line for the tarnished traitor. This map is also really a single biome.map. As you can only gt to the underground bit one the meta is complete.

And this map is easily 4 EoTN maps in content, but please, by all means, continue ignoring actual numbers.

BrotherBelial.3094:

TD, now this map has 2 biomes, though the jungle floor is a lot smaller than the underground and broken up by massive holes and mountain’s. But again, no 3rd.

Three biomes, surface, underground and underwater.

BrotherBelial.3094:

DS, again really a single level map. Sure you can climb up thing and go under parts, you can do that in DHC in the core game, as well as MM. By what we have seen in HoT we should say those maps have 2 biomes.

And how many EoTN maps does this one have content-wise?
Again, if we go back to numbers…..

BrotherBelial.3094:

So.as I said, EoTN was better

Objective source? Nah that’s a matter of opinion, however…

BrotherBelial.3094:

it delivered more maps, fact.

But less content, this is not a matter of opinion, we have numbers

BrotherBelial.3094:

We could go down the lines or the HoT maps are bigger, but the simple fact is they feel a lot.more like GW1 maps where you have to go in the direction the map forces you, once you unlock the right masteries you is less of a factor.

Not just bigger in size, but also in stuff to do, also a fact.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Eye of the.north added more sets of armor, yes GW2 has to put a lot more work in to there armor as we have 5 races, and we could count each races set as a unique set, but really we are just telling our self’s lies.

Numbers don’t lie, you may like EoTN sets more, but they did not add more than HoT, another fact that, just like all the previous ones, do not support your position.

BrotherBelial.3094:

EoTN had a longer story.

Meassured how? provide your reasoning, numbers included please.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Sure we could say that the story of HoT is not finished, as we know at some point next year we will get the next part of the living story. But I don’t see that as part of HoT’s price tag

What matters is not what you count or not, LS3 is only available for those who bought HoT, therefore it’s included in the package, again, something that differs when we compare reality and what you claim.

BrotherBelial.3094:

that is content for player retention.

Like the last GW1 expansion content?

BrotherBelial.3094:

Every mmo adds content to keep there players. People saying we payed for a season pass are trying to justify the cost of HoT to them self’s. It’s why I’ve stopped buying single player games at launch. These days game get so much DLC added to them, that the initial coat of the game is not worth it, better off waiting for a game of the year, or complete collection, or a good steam sale. But I’m getting off track. HoT story was good, but short.

Your opinion, still not a fact.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Weapon skins, 5 sets plus how ever many individual skins, (I’m not including guild items in this as not every player will have access or want to be in a massive guild) EoTH and HoT are probably on par with this. Though HoT will probably take this one by the fact we have more weapons in GW2 than we did in GW1.

Not on par, once again, numbers don’t support your position.

BrotherBelial.3094:

I could go on, but I don’t want to wast anymore time on this, you have your views and you believe you are correct and I’m wrong, I feel nothing anyone says or arguments people put forward, you will stand by ANet. That’s your right to do so, and I can respect that.

I have my views, supported by numbers, I’ll change them the second numbers support another one because I’d rather stick to reality instead of bellyfeelings.
Your views contradict reality.

I started to read it, but as soon as you try to tell.me there are 3 biomes on the maps you lost all credibility.

You stick to your numbers if that how you an measure fun and worth in a game.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

BrotherBelial.3094:

You can measure fun. Not objectively but we know what we find fun or not.

That’s per person so hardly something that can be used to compare two games. One person will find one better, another person will find another better. However, objective certain points can be in fact compared to make an objective comparison. You cannot compare the “fun level”.

More to do as long as you have other people wanting to do those things when you want too. Otherwise there is pretty much nothing you can do, or if you miss the start of some maps, you can’t really do that much. This is what makes EoTN better, you could do what ever you want, when ever you wanted. Not having to play to a time table.

Actually that’s false you can do most things without the need for other people and aside from certain meta events you can always find people when you need them for anything else. I know it takes some social skills to do so, unlike EoTN which was a single player game.

I said HoT would come out with more weapons, mostly by having more weapons to chose from from the start. You had all the unique weapons added by EoTN, then you had the sets from Vanguard, Norn, Asura, Dwarf and the end game set. Then you had the rare wepons that dropped from the dungeons, if we both could be bothered to sit down and look them all up, the weapons would probably be on par

I already counted the unique weapon skins of GW1, they aren’t too many. Also a lot of them are using the same skins I just didn’t bother to check which one was which in my calculations.

There are plenty of people who would agree that HoT did not deliver. I’m sure there are people who think HoT is the best thing ever. I don’t think HoT is a complete failure, but I really don’t think the quality of it was on par with what ANet have delivered in the past.

Times change and many players are stuck in the past and missing the full picture.

BrotherBelial.3094:

You stick to your numbers if that how you an measure fun and worth in a game.

Numbers can be compared. Fun and worth cannot. Of course numbers alone don’t mean everything, World of Warcraft at this point in time has more content on almost every possible subject than either GW1 or GW2. So if you see only the numbers it should be way way far ahead of both, yet for many people it’s not more Fun nor it’s worth more than either GW1 or GW2.

When I compared the two games I did an as objective as possible actual comparison between similar features and the results show that HoT has more content than EotN. Does it mean it’s more fun or is worth more? No by the fact of having more numbers alone it’s not, but it’s the only thing you can actually compare.

BrotherBelial.3094:

I started to read it, but as soon as you try to tell.me there are 3 biomes on the maps you lost all credibility.

You stick to your numbers if that how you an measure fun and worth in a game.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

Noone’s meassuring fun, we’re comparing the content added by each expansion and the facts don’t support your position.
Fun is subjective, content added by EoTN and HoT isn’t.

From an explorers perspective, HoT is the scrawniest excuse for an expansion I have ever played. You can’t even explore it all the way until you’ve ground out millions of xp for masteries.

and for what it’s worth, those 18 dungeons provided me with infinitely more enjoyment than THE raid (not plural) as I didn’t have to pass a strangers gear check to get in or use gimmicks to defeat the bosses massive boring health bars.

Don’t get me wrong. I love Guild Wars. But I expected a lot more out of HoT.