Guild Wars 2

When GW2 was designed Anet wisely decided to throw away an old MMO trope. Anet got rid of breathing endurance while swimming underwater. Why? Because breathing endurance makes underwater content not fun. Yet I fear Anet is about to institute a different equally poor MMO trope: Flying endurance.

I cheered when gliding was introduced. I groaned when I read about the attached endurance meter. Flying endurance is not fun. It never has been.

Flying is suppose to be fun. The sights to behold, the exhilaration of movement in aerial content can be amazing. But, flying endurance turns this into a dreaded time limit. Players will be watching the endurance meters not the beauty of the zone. Floating on air can be a breathtaking experience but this is destroyed when an outdated gaming mechanic plummets you to your doom for daring to enjoy the gaming content a bit too long. This is similar to underwater areas in many other MMOs and I fear most players will quickly learn to avoid such content. Flying endurance is simply not fun.

There are other ways of gating gliding content. Such as lowering the forward speed of novice gliders. This still causes novices to miss far away landing spots but doesn’t cause them to fall to their deaths for overreaching. Additionally, if the endurance amount is so large as to not bother ‘most people’, then why is it even there? Flying endurance is not needed.

Flying endurance is not fun.

P.S. I understand gliding is not flying. Flying Endurance is the trope I am opposed to. Thus, I am using that terminology.

I agree. With an expiration on how long I can glide I will mostly be focused on that rather than having fun and exploring. It also doesn’t really make sense because in real life when you glide you dont stop until you hit the bottom.

One thing I would like is being able to at least glide permanently at max gliding level, this way they can still gate content and give something people to work towards but at the same time give us the possibility of freedom within the air. This would also give people extra incentive to rank gliding.

Kantos.1730:

When GW2 was designed Anet wisely decided to throw away an old MMO trope. Anet got rid of breathing endurance while swimming underwater. Why? Because breathing endurance makes underwater content not fun. Yet I fear Anet is about to institute a different equally poor MMO trope: Flying endurance.

I cheered when gliding was introduced. I groaned when I read about the attached endurance meter. Flying endurance is not fun. It never has been.

Flying is suppose to be fun. The sights to behold, the exhilaration of movement in aerial content can be amazing. But, flying endurance turns this into a dreaded time limit. Players will be watching the endurance meters not the beauty of the zone. Floating on air can be a breathtaking experience but this is destroyed when an outdated gaming mechanic plummets you to your doom for daring to enjoy the gaming content a bit too long. This is similar to underwater areas in many other MMOs and I fear most players will quickly learn to avoid such content. Flying endurance is simply not fun.

There are other ways of gating gliding content. Such as lowering the forward speed of novice gliders. This still causes novices to miss far away landing spots but doesn’t cause them to fall to their deaths for overreaching. Additionally, if the endurance amount is so large as to not bother ‘most people’, then why is it even there? Flying endurance is not needed.

Flying endurance is not fun.

P.S. I understand gliding is not flying. Flying Endurance is the trope I am opposed to. Thus, I am using that terminology.

I dont have any info on this, going off what the OP stated.

But a endurance system for flying makes the player discover better take off spots to reach cool and clever hidden locations. it becomes a mini game of sorts trying to find the best location to leap from to get to that secret ledge over there.

i explained the reason in another thread, but here we go:

gliding is purely traversal. you go from A to B with it. there’s no “airborne exploration”. the gliding bar is likely designed to give you the length to cross the areas you’re meant to cross, and that’s it.

underwater, however, involves exploration, combat, and other tasks. you don’t go underwater to go from A to B, you go underwater to do stuff there. therefore, a bar that limits your time there hinders the experience.

BrunoBRS is probably right. Endurance will be a content gating mechanism to determine how far you can go, and I take a guess that gliding will probably not last more than 3-5 seconds on average. Underwater content is totally different, as it involves long-term exploration and has actual combat in it.

DiogoSilva.7089:

BrunoBRS is probably right. Endurance will be a content gating mechanism to determine how far you can go, and I take a guess that gliding will probably not last more than 3-5 seconds on average. Underwater content is totally different, as it involves long-term exploration and has actual combat in it.

Which is why I don’t care too much for the gliding, but I’m definitely looking forward to the deep sea dragon expansion (if GW2 lasts that long). Think of how awesome it would be if we spent entire maps underwater, even if there were arbitrary roadblocks like this expansion has. (and they spent the time to actually improve/expand underwater combat).

And I think that’s the reason Gliding endurance (and the ability to upgrade the endurance) even exists. Anet doesn’t want people going straight to the hardest endgame map, and passing all the easiest maps, so they set up roadblocks that must be overcome.

Since there’s no increase in the level cap…progression has to be slowed in some other way. No amount of innovation will ever stop that.

Gliding should have been a cool thing to be able to do from vistas and in towns. They could have had it without an “endurance meter” if you unlocked it once you got to the top of the new maps in HoT and had the top of the map been the end of the line for the maps. Then you could glide around to your heart’s content because you beat all of the gating sans gliding.

Iason Evan.3806:

Gliding should have been a cool thing to be able to do from vistas and in towns. They could have had it without an “endurance meter” if you unlocked it once you got to the top of the new maps in HoT and had the top of the map been the end of the line for the maps. Then you could glide around to your heart’s content because you beat all of the gating sans gliding.

ANet aren’t fans of systems that trivialize and allow you to bypass content, which is why they don’t implement mounts in GW2.

flying around to your heart’s content would trivialize the whole map, because then you’d just fly over everything that happened.

or they could make the endurance bar be fillable like if you hit a updraft like pilot wings for dreamcast and n64

This gliding feature reminds me of Aion. Anyway, I think if you consider it from the beginning, there should be a more intuitive way for gating content, if that’s what the flight endurance is used for:
You fall while gliding and you travel horizontally. Simply apply a different angle for the various levels. Let’s say at level 1 you get 10 meters far, if you drop down 10 meters. At level 2 you reach 20 meters distance by dropping down 10 meters etc. That way some islands in the air are just out of reach for players with low gliding level.

Yep, when I read that on Dulfy, I instantly thought, “Aion” too.

Someone hasn’t paid close attention to some of the announcement, articles and/or interviews. There will be combat involved in some gliding, that was already stated. The more you increase your Mastery in gliding, the longer you can stay in the air, increase it another level and you can use updrafts…people don’t seem to be able read and comprehend to much anymore. There needs to be a drawback to gliding, and the endurance meter, just like the one we have for dodging, is it.

Zaklex.6308:

Someone hasn’t paid close attention to some of the announcement, articles and/or interviews. There will be combat involved in some gliding, that was already stated. The more you increase your Mastery in gliding, the longer you can stay in the air, increase it another level and you can use updrafts…people don’t seem to be able read and comprehend to much anymore. There needs to be a drawback to gliding, and the endurance meter, just like the one we have for dodging, is it.

please link where you saw that there will be airborn combat.

“using updrafts” isn’t an attack, it’s gaining height. staying longer in the air allows you to travel further, not fight more.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/reimagining-progression-the-mastery-system/
—Second paragraph under the last image.

When you train the Gliding Mastery, however, you’ll have the option to soar freely through the treetops, escape the dangers that await you on the jungle floor, use the air to your advantage in combat against certain foes, and save yourself from accidental death by slipping.

Anyway, this is the same thing as AION has, you can only use it in certain locations and for only a certain amount of time depending on your training. I was disappointed when I read that it would only be available for HoT and that it was the same thing as AION did.

Anyway, for 2 years of work, this better be one hell of a nice zone and not just a living story update with feature pack.

Lil Puppy.5216:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/reimagining-progression-the-mastery-system/
—Second paragraph under the last image.

When you train the Gliding Mastery, however, you’ll have the option to soar freely through the treetops, escape the dangers that await you on the jungle floor, use the air to your advantage in combat against certain foes, and save yourself from accidental death by slipping.

.

I’m guessing that quote means that you can use it in a similar way to how you can use jumping now, to force opponents to repath and to get them out of your way.

The falling thing implies that it’s not just fixed points, in fact I get the impression that they said it would trigger whenever you hit freefall (ie terminal velocity).

Other thing for the OP< I just can’t help but think of this;

You might find you get what you need

Actually i believe endurance bar will be huge fun. Remember the reason why we love combat in GW2. Because it’s limited. The first anwer ofc is because it’s action packed and flexible, but those two are the result of limits. The limited amount of skills we can put on our skillbar forces us to make builds and think which skills to choose. The limited amount of healing forces us to think on our feet and use every defense possible before resorting to using that precious heal.

Same for flying. I can imagine gliding being like a racing mini-game – getting to the spot before your endurance bar goes down to zero will enforce planning your path and doing your best to stay on optimal, least wasteful trajectory to the target. It’ll be challenging, and i like that idea.

Actually it’s not fun or necessary and there are precedents showing changes made to the gliding mechanic in other titles out there to eliminate this bar. There are several from Archeage to Aion to WoW none of them use this method anymore because of the problems that come along with having a limited amount of time being airborn. They do however have dismount mechanics in which someone who is hit by an attack takes them out of that gliding mode so there is that to consider if they really wanted to limit it during combat or PVP that would be acceptable but not allowing people the ability to glide endlessly while airborn just makes it less realistic because look at real life here, if you get on a hang glider and you get airborn it doesn’t suddenly retract because some invisible meter that is giving you a limited time use and make you fall to your death. Also, hang glider riders always have safety measures irl now like parachutes if something goes wrong they can open one to catch their fall.

If they implement meters they need to at the very least provide straight down parachutes to prevent deathgliding. It’s only sensible.

We’re going to get hanggliding which itself is not airplane flying…so you will lose hight all the time which can be seen as a destroyer for the endurance idea. It would be ilogical (atleast for me) to have endurance ontop of havint to lose hight at all times while gliding.

Lil Puppy.5216:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/reimagining-progression-the-mastery-system/
—Second paragraph under the last image.

When you train the Gliding Mastery, however, you’ll have the option to soar freely through the treetops, escape the dangers that await you on the jungle floor, use the air to your advantage in combat against certain foes, and save yourself from accidental death by slipping.

Anyway, this is the same thing as AION has, you can only use it in certain locations and for only a certain amount of time depending on your training. I was disappointed when I read that it would only be available for HoT and that it was the same thing as AION did.

Anyway, for 2 years of work, this better be one hell of a nice zone and not just a living story update with feature pack.

yeah, that’s not saying you’ll fight in the air, just that you can take off to the skies to have an advantage (like the players running from the roly poly dino in the trailer)

Mishee.5719:

We’re going to get hanggliding which itself is not airplane flying…so you will lose hight all the time which can be seen as a destroyer for the endurance idea. It would be ilogical (atleast for me) to have endurance ontop of havint to lose hight at all times while gliding.

it’s not about being logical, it’s about being like Wind Waker

People are confusing gliding with flying.

tigirius.9014:

Actually it’s not fun or necessary and there are precedents showing changes made to the gliding mechanic in other titles out there to eliminate this bar. There are several from Archeage to Aion to WoW none of them use this method anymore because of the problems that come along with having a limited amount of time being airborn. They do however have dismount mechanics in which someone who is hit by an attack takes them out of that gliding mode so there is that to consider if they really wanted to limit it during combat or PVP that would be acceptable but not allowing people the ability to glide endlessly while airborn just makes it less realistic because look at real life here, if you get on a hang glider and you get airborn it doesn’t suddenly retract because some invisible meter that is giving you a limited time use and make you fall to your death. Also, hang glider riders always have safety measures irl now like parachutes if something goes wrong they can open one to catch their fall.

If they implement meters they need to at the very least provide straight down parachutes to prevent deathgliding. It’s only sensible.

You are looking at it all wrong. This isn’t a means to explore. It’s a means of getting to places normally inaccessible to you in specific maps. Think of it as earning the right to use it via masteries to get a jumping puzzle to a new area. It’s really no different than that. You are trying to make it something it isn’t designed to be and the game can’t support.

Chrispy.5641:

(if GW2 lasts that long)

These statements all severely bug me.

If an MMORPG has lasted for at least over two years it’s likely going to have many more years ahead. Everquest 1 is still pumping out expansions. The only times we see MMORPGs actually killed off, or just closed down, is when the company actually believes it’s development to be -that- stagnant or, in the case of Warhammer Age of Reckoning, the game shuts down due to dev incompetence.

Just needed to get that out.

The heck are you talking about OP. You’ve answered your own concern.
And you can’t just say “I understand it’s not flying” but have your complaint complete disregard the fact that they are different.
It’s like saying “I understand that it’s not blue, but my problem is that it’s not blue”.

This isn’t flying. It’s not supposed to be flying. It works differently then flying.
It’s gliding, and gliding is decidedly not flying.
We’re not getting flying mounts, nor is the intention of gliding to give us unrestricted aerial movement.
Why? because it’s gliding.
Somebody linked a wind waker video, and that’s a perfect example of gliding with a limit, and that limit being a good addition to the system.
A gliding limit is not decidedly unfun (though it potentially could be), you’ve simply decided it’s unfun without even seeing it, let alone trying it.

As long as it doesn’t mean HoT is one big JP (which it sounds more and more like it is….)…

Ralanost.8913:

tigirius.9014:

Actually it’s not fun or necessary and there are precedents showing changes made to the gliding mechanic in other titles out there to eliminate this bar. There are several from Archeage to Aion to WoW none of them use this method anymore because of the problems that come along with having a limited amount of time being airborn. They do however have dismount mechanics in which someone who is hit by an attack takes them out of that gliding mode so there is that to consider if they really wanted to limit it during combat or PVP that would be acceptable but not allowing people the ability to glide endlessly while airborn just makes it less realistic because look at real life here, if you get on a hang glider and you get airborn it doesn’t suddenly retract because some invisible meter that is giving you a limited time use and make you fall to your death. Also, hang glider riders always have safety measures irl now like parachutes if something goes wrong they can open one to catch their fall.

If they implement meters they need to at the very least provide straight down parachutes to prevent deathgliding. It’s only sensible.

You are looking at it all wrong. This isn’t a means to explore. It’s a means of getting to places normally inaccessible to you in specific maps. Think of it as earning the right to use it via masteries to get a jumping puzzle to a new area. It’s really no different than that. You are trying to make it something it isn’t designed to be and the game can’t support.

Actually the game can support it and before you reply to this post and say things like they don’t have enough time or money let me remind of you three things. The complete makeover of FFXIV, Blizzard adding flying to the old world which was a complete remake as far as coding and they did it during an expansion development period, and the complete redux of the flying mechanic in Aion in new zones.

History shows us that it is indeed very easily possibly for the coding to be complete if not by launch then just after it.

tigirius.9014:

Actually the game can support it and before you reply to this post and say things like they don’t have enough time or money let me remind of you three things. The complete makeover of FFXIV, Blizzard adding flying to the old world which was a complete remake as far as coding and they did it during an expansion development period, and the complete redux of the flying mechanic in Aion in new zones.

History shows us that it is indeed very easily possibly for the coding to be complete if not by launch then just after it.

You are missing the point. The game is built around ground travel and waypoints. Jumping puzzles, vistas and just how the zone is consumed. Put gliding in every zone would ruin the game. And that is the truth. This isn’t about the tech. It’s about destroying what makes GW2 what it is for a novelty. I am surprised you even think this way as someone that plays the same game as the rest of us.

I agree with the no endurance thing, I dont want gliding to be on a time limit but more realistic as you techically are falling just at a slower pace.

KryTiKaL.3125:

Chrispy.5641:

(if GW2 lasts that long)

These statements all severely bug me.

If an MMORPG has lasted for at least over two years it’s likely going to have many more years ahead. Everquest 1 is still pumping out expansions. The only times we see MMORPGs actually killed off, or just closed down, is when the company actually believes it’s development to be -that- stagnant or, in the case of Warhammer Age of Reckoning, the game shuts down due to dev incompetence.

Just needed to get that out.

Correction :::

If the game lasts long enough and is successful enough to continue to put out full features expansions while innovating on its graphics and gameplay and not just linger for a decade and a half while pumping out halved-crap expansions every 6 months that don’t really add anything to the gameplay and does nothing to improve the graphics, but it gets done anyways because there’s about a hundred thousand fanboys who will pay any amount for any content at all, even if its really crappy content by comparison to all the modern MMO’s that look and play better.

Better? I added about three times more sarcasm than usual!

I agree, I want to fly above the clouds with the wind blowing through my digital hair.

Aguri.2896:

I agree. With an expiration on how long I can glide I will mostly be focused on that rather than having fun and exploring. It also doesn’t really make sense because in real life when you glide you dont stop until you hit the bottom.

One thing I would like is being able to at least glide permanently at max gliding level, this way they can still gate content and give something people to work towards but at the same time give us the possibility of freedom within the air. This would also give people extra incentive to rank gliding.

depends on how long you could hold on to a glider i mean supporting your own weight must take its toll right?

Am I missing something? Has the OP actually experienced the new gliding system first-hand?

How is OP qualified to have an opinion on something they haven’t actually tried out?

Mo Mo.1947:

Am I missing something? Has the OP actually experienced the new gliding system first-hand?

How is OP qualified to have an opinion on something they haven’t actually tried out?

Everyone on the Internet is a certified Armchair Expert on everything that ever existed and will ever exist on all earths that exist simultaneously in the multiverse. He’s just channeling his future other earth self that already played the beta. Just 3 earths away, my counterpart Michelle played Triforge’s League Wars 2 : Brain of Brambles beta last week. She wasn’t much of a fan of the gliding mechanic, but Gelatin Grape assured everyone that they purposely limited the gliding mechanic to prevent access to unfinished areas. So, there’s hope that it won’t totally suck!

Also, OP does have some very real concerns because in the old days of MMO’s (and still in some MMO’s today), there were O2 meters when underwater, limiting your time, which wasn’t fun. If its anything like that, its not going to be much fun either. Those concerns are valid, even if OP hasn’t played a beta, or seen any gameplay yet.

I’ve never tried mountain climbing, but, its totally valid for me to say that having to carry an oxygen tank while climbing to the top of Everest isn’t going to be any fun. Same thing here.

Kantos.1730:

I cheered when gliding was introduced. I groaned when I read about the attached endurance meter. Flying endurance is not fun. It never has been.

Where did you read this?

I had imagined hang gliding and flying will be similar to Aspects. Was looking forward to that. But if this is indeed Aion style…

Look at the difference between Aion flight simulatoon game vs. GW2 aspects:

http://gameguide.na.aiononline.com/aion/Flight

Not interested in flight simulation game.

I do wish you all fun for those who like it. But for those who don’t, like me, it will likely spell the end of GW2 for us.

Considering gravity is already a built-in timer for a glider, I don’t see the need for an endurance bar.

I feel the endurance meter would be completely necessary. this isn’t fast travel or anything, it’s about moving from place to place, fighting and positioning, and more. It’s not flying.

Chrispy.5641:

Mo Mo.1947:

Am I missing something? Has the OP actually experienced the new gliding system first-hand?

How is OP qualified to have an opinion on something they haven’t actually tried out?

Everyone on the Internet is a certified Armchair Expert on everything that ever existed and will ever exist on all earths that exist simultaneously in the multiverse. He’s just channeling his future other earth self that already played the beta. Just 3 earths away, my counterpart Michelle played Triforge’s League Wars 2 : Brain of Brambles beta last week. She wasn’t much of a fan of the gliding mechanic, but Gelatin Grape assured everyone that they purposely limited the gliding mechanic to prevent access to unfinished areas. So, there’s hope that it won’t totally suck!

Also, OP does have some very real concerns because in the old days of MMO’s (and still in some MMO’s today), there were O2 meters when underwater, limiting your time, which wasn’t fun. If its anything like that, its not going to be much fun either. Those concerns are valid, even if OP hasn’t played a beta, or seen any gameplay yet.

I’ve never tried mountain climbing, but, its totally valid for me to say that having to carry an oxygen tank while climbing to the top of Everest isn’t going to be any fun. Same thing here.

Only comparison I have is Aion, so …

IIRC, Aion’s flight time started with just under a minute, and went up to about 3-4 minutes depending on conditions. Consumables to boost flight time, flight rings to pass through to get another boost, etc. Gliding was unlimited – jump off a cliff and glide down for as long/far as you can. Flight was restricted to cities/Abyss (PvP map), gliding could be done anywhere.

It wasn’t a perfect system, but it could be something to draw upon. Depending on how the maps are set up, I would expect a minimum of 10-15 seconds of flight, going up to 1-2 minutes as the Mastery track progresses. The trailer did show fairly lengthy flight times (longer than 2-3 seconds), which may be due to clever use of wind currents to extend flight/glide times.

Either way, I will wait to see how ANet implements it.

how successful was aion? iv never heard much about it until now

saventis.1485:

how successful was aion? iv never heard much about it until now

Pretty active for the first 3-6 months as is the case with most new P2P MMOs. Their first server merge happened about a year or two in, and they went F2P within 2-3 years.

It’s a Korean MMO which really didn’t have much place in North America. Takes WoW’s gear grind to the next level.

This is one of the features that was introduced in a recent expansion: only the top ranked PvP player (only one) could purchase the best possible PvP gear. The person who got that rank was usually fed PvP points (called Abyss points) from other players/guildies to get to that point.

I would place Aion as an example of what not to do, EVER, in an MMO.

Rashy.4165:

It’s a Korean MMO which really didn’t have much place in North America. Takes WoW’s gear grind to the next level.

This is one of the features that was introduced in a recent expansion: only the top ranked PvP player (only one) could purchase the best possible PvP gear. The person who got that rank was usually fed PvP points (called Abyss points) from other players/guildies to get to that point.

I would place Aion as an example of what not to do, EVER, in an MMO.

^^ NCSoft developed Aion. This is why I’m concerned. Just going into watch mode for now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCSOFT

BlueOcean.5380:

Rashy.4165:

It’s a Korean MMO which really didn’t have much place in North America. Takes WoW’s gear grind to the next level.

This is one of the features that was introduced in a recent expansion: only the top ranked PvP player (only one) could purchase the best possible PvP gear. The person who got that rank was usually fed PvP points (called Abyss points) from other players/guildies to get to that point.

I would place Aion as an example of what not to do, EVER, in an MMO.

^^ NCSoft developed Aion. This is why I’m concerned. Just going into watch mode for now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCSOFT

Luckily for us, NCSoft doesn’t have anything to do with GW2’s development.

Rashy.4165:

Luckily for us, NCSoft doesn’t have anything to do with GW2’s development.

Seen these situations at work. Hierarchy matters when upper management drives revenue goals. I am not saying this is the case here. But I’m taking a watch and see stance for now.

If I see GW2 flying to be just like Aion’s, that will tell me something.

Yeah I’m a bit worried about this endurance bar for hang gliding. I just hope it’s long enough to make most glides and won’t be a complete fail.

You guys are lucky to even have gliding, it’s as close to mounts you’ll ever get, they want you to be immersed in the game not flying over all the content from A to B. Even if you WP you have to walk a distance to get to where you actually want to go.

I’ll wait to see it in practice before I offer any further comment. But, if it’s anything like Aion’s attempt at gliding and flying, expect the boards to light up like a Christmas tree of complaints when this goes live.

You would save yourself a lot of pain, if you just stop comparing gliding with flying.

I’m fine with gliding so far, “true flying” would put the new content to rest in a matter of days… so no thanks.

The glider is a gadget developed due to the extreme conditions we face in the jungle, something your character as to master and improve… I get the impression that’s something crude and experimental, probably made from the wreck of the pact fleet.

That said, the endurance bar would just enhance that feeling… and if you fall when the endurance runs out…well…. can we have an emergency parachute backpack?

i’m loving the “logic” in some of these posts.

“NCSoft published Aion. NCSoft publishes GW2. Thus, NCSoft will force ANet’s hand to make gliding in GW2 the same as flying in Aion, because reasons”.

all that’s missing is “Nexon did it for gems”

For all we know, that bar will be like our current dodge bar aptly called endurance. You will be able to dodge in the air as the trailers shown dragons flying around and other flying foes. I’d hate to get hit by that and not be able to dodge midair.

You guys fail to realize the the most simple conclusions.

firefall doesn’t even have a glider endurance bar yet it works perfectly, i see no reason to add an endurance bar except to limit the players reaching further then intended.
then again, if they fear that, don’t add gliders in the first place.