Guild Wars 2

Stupid page bug.

Vayne.8563:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Vayne.8563:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Vayne.8563:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Vayne.8563:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Vayne.8563:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Vayne.8563:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Barred from equallity in wvw as im versing people who have raid stats i need different stats, to aquire them i need to grind raids how do you not understand.

I don’t understand because I’ve WvWed and it’s not based on 1v1 it’s server vs server. The odds of anyone ending up with someone with the exact same skills and exact same build the exact same connection, the exact same computer specs are negliable.

By your rights the game is pay to win because I live in Australia and my ping is higher than in the US and so I can’t play the game without paying real money and moving to the US because I’m disadvantaged.

Where as in Rift, if I didn’t have the required focus provided by gear, I couldn’t even queue for the content I wanted to play. The game prevented you from queueing.

You may want that stuff, but you don’t need it to play. You only strongly believe you do.
If it’s important enough to you, you will grind. A legendary is important to me so I’ll grind for it. That’s how the game works.

It’s your choice to play that content with other stats, you choose not to.

I dont run around brain dead in a zerg of 50 people, i roam, solo or as a small group, stats matter in these situations.

To you. Stats don’t matter to me. See how easy this is?

Matter to you or not the fact remains that this is leaving people who raid with an advantage.

Which is irrelevant to whether or not you need it. That’s the point. You say if someone has an advantage no matter how slight that you need to do it. That’s not fact, it’s opinion. You want to do it. You choose to do it.

Anet said before launch WvW was not meant to be balanced that way. You think it is but it’s not. It’s not balanced on 1v1. In fact, nothing in the game is actually balanced on 1v1, so the whole concept is just something in your mind. You think it must be this way.

But if the game isn’t balanced on 1v1 then it’s not a requirement…it’s a preference.

No its still a fact that its an unfair advantage, can apply it to top dps in pve too. lelelelelee

That may or may not be a fact, but you still aren’t forced to grind. You can factually still play WvW without having that set of gear, unlike other games which force you to grind. It’s the difference.

Put it another way. My end game might say I must have the coolest legendary because it looks coolest. I have to have it. It’s a must to me. But that doesn’t mean I’m forced to grind that legendary. I can play all the content in the game without it.

You’d have a point if you couldn’t play that content. Fractals does force you to grind to play the highest levels and it was designed for the crowd who wants to grind.

But this, this is still your decision, disadvantage or not.

Comparing cosmetics to actual stat pool is ridiculous. fact.
I can’t raid becaue i don’t have pve gear, i would ahve to spend loads of gold making a new set. So yeah, forced to raid and grind to get what i need prevent being ata disadvantage.

This game is often called Fashion Wars 2. I’ve never heard it called stat wars 2. Are you suggesting if you don’t have those stats you crave, you absolutely can’t beat a guy who does?

You’ve never heard of stat wars two :O? so you must never have been ina raid, or a dungeon or anythignwher epeople say ping gear? well, i guess you should stop commenting then because you clearly do not know anythign about this game.

Often the more specialized you are in a field, the less able you are to see clearly. That is to say, you’re so focused on one thing that nothing else is an argument except your focus. The problem is your comments can only be proven if you axiomatically accept the basis that everyone is on an even footing to begin with. It’s not true.

There are lots of people I could probably beat in PvP, and when my ping hovers around 200 I often do. Those same people, when my ping hovers around 400 kick my kitten , because they have an advantage. This isn’t the olympics. WvW is not an esport. There was never any guarantee everyone would be even in the first place, but in a game with this many variables, there’s very much no way two people are going to be equal no matter what gear they have.

This is an illusion carried over from other games were stats are the be all end all. Technique here is often as or more important than just stats. As for insulting me, that’s okay. It usually is what people do when they lose arguments.

Notice, I didn’t have to resort to personal insults to make a point.

Edit:

I googled Guild Wars 2 “stat wars 2” btw and got 2 results.
Try googling Guild Wars 2 “fashion wars 2” and see how many results you get.

One of us should do more research before accusing someone of ignorance.

i didnt insult you. i made the point that youre mentioning irrelivent things like skins lol. no matter what stats are what matters in roaming.

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Vayne.8563:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Vayne.8563:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Vayne.8563:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Vayne.8563:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Vayne.8563:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Vayne.8563:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Barred from equallity in wvw as im versing people who have raid stats i need different stats, to aquire them i need to grind raids how do you not understand.

I don’t understand because I’ve WvWed and it’s not based on 1v1 it’s server vs server. The odds of anyone ending up with someone with the exact same skills and exact same build the exact same connection, the exact same computer specs are negliable.

By your rights the game is pay to win because I live in Australia and my ping is higher than in the US and so I can’t play the game without paying real money and moving to the US because I’m disadvantaged.

Where as in Rift, if I didn’t have the required focus provided by gear, I couldn’t even queue for the content I wanted to play. The game prevented you from queueing.

You may want that stuff, but you don’t need it to play. You only strongly believe you do.
If it’s important enough to you, you will grind. A legendary is important to me so I’ll grind for it. That’s how the game works.

It’s your choice to play that content with other stats, you choose not to.

I dont run around brain dead in a zerg of 50 people, i roam, solo or as a small group, stats matter in these situations.

To you. Stats don’t matter to me. See how easy this is?

Matter to you or not the fact remains that this is leaving people who raid with an advantage.

Which is irrelevant to whether or not you need it. That’s the point. You say if someone has an advantage no matter how slight that you need to do it. That’s not fact, it’s opinion. You want to do it. You choose to do it.

Anet said before launch WvW was not meant to be balanced that way. You think it is but it’s not. It’s not balanced on 1v1. In fact, nothing in the game is actually balanced on 1v1, so the whole concept is just something in your mind. You think it must be this way.

But if the game isn’t balanced on 1v1 then it’s not a requirement…it’s a preference.

No its still a fact that its an unfair advantage, can apply it to top dps in pve too. lelelelelee

That may or may not be a fact, but you still aren’t forced to grind. You can factually still play WvW without having that set of gear, unlike other games which force you to grind. It’s the difference.

Put it another way. My end game might say I must have the coolest legendary because it looks coolest. I have to have it. It’s a must to me. But that doesn’t mean I’m forced to grind that legendary. I can play all the content in the game without it.

You’d have a point if you couldn’t play that content. Fractals does force you to grind to play the highest levels and it was designed for the crowd who wants to grind.

But this, this is still your decision, disadvantage or not.

Comparing cosmetics to actual stat pool is ridiculous. fact.
I can’t raid becaue i don’t have pve gear, i would ahve to spend loads of gold making a new set. So yeah, forced to raid and grind to get what i need prevent being ata disadvantage.

This game is often called Fashion Wars 2. I’ve never heard it called stat wars 2. Are you suggesting if you don’t have those stats you crave, you absolutely can’t beat a guy who does?

You’ve never heard of stat wars two :O? so you must never have been ina raid, or a dungeon or anythignwher epeople say ping gear? well, i guess you should stop commenting then because you clearly do not know anythign about this game.

Often the more specialized you are in a field, the less able you are to see clearly. That is to say, you’re so focused on one thing that nothing else is an argument except your focus. The problem is your comments can only be proven if you axiomatically accept the basis that everyone is on an even footing to begin with. It’s not true.

There are lots of people I could probably beat in PvP, and when my ping hovers around 200 I often do. Those same people, when my ping hovers around 400 kick my kitten , because they have an advantage. This isn’t the olympics. WvW is not an esport. There was never any guarantee everyone would be even in the first place, but in a game with this many variables, there’s very much no way two people are going to be equal no matter what gear they have.

This is an illusion carried over from other games were stats are the be all end all. Technique here is often as or more important than just stats. As for insulting me, that’s okay. It usually is what people do when they lose arguments.

Notice, I didn’t have to resort to personal insults to make a point.

Edit:

I googled Guild Wars 2 “stat wars 2” btw and got 2 results.
Try googling Guild Wars 2 “fashion wars 2” and see how many results you get.

One of us should do more research before accusing someone of ignorance.

i didnt insult you. i made the point that youre mentioning irrelivent things like skins lol. no matter what stats are what matters in roaming.

This is your quote “well, i guess you should stop commenting then because you clearly do not know anythign about this game.”

Saying someone doesn’t know anything about the game is clearly an insult. For example, I can name all 9 professions, so I know something about the game. The fact is, my search for fashion wars 2 came up a whole lot more than the whole “stat wars 2” thing.

And yes, saying someone knows nothing about a game can be construed as an insult by anyone without an agenda.

Edit: On topic, nothing, and I do mean nothing in the game requires you to those raid trinkets to participate in the game.

Trepidation Lost.3469:

It’t not about being able to participate. I could use no gear and participate, lmao.
It’s about fairness in aquiring things, why should only those who raid have access?

What does that have to do with fairness? It’s an incentive to raid.

People who do fractals will only have access to fractal back pieces. People who run Silverwastes will only have access to Luminescent armor. People who run Drytop will only have access to Ambrite weapons. There are places where you can only get certain things from them. Should all items and achievements be made available to all game modes? That doesn’t seem remotely reasonable.

MiniEquine.6014:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

It’t not about being able to participate. I could use no gear and participate, lmao.
It’s about fairness in aquiring things, why should only those who raid have access?

What does that have to do with fairness? It’s an incentive to raid.

People who do fractals will only have access to fractal back pieces. People who run Silverwastes will only have access to Luminescent armor. People who run Drytop will only have access to Ambrite weapons. There are places where you can only get certain things from them. Should all items and achievements be made available to all game modes? That doesn’t seem remotely reasonable.

Difference being stats give unfair advantage in pvp modes like wvw tell me how fractal backpiece helps u win at a certain game mode?

Trepidation Lost.3469:

MiniEquine.6014:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

It’t not about being able to participate. I could use no gear and participate, lmao.
It’s about fairness in aquiring things, why should only those who raid have access?

What does that have to do with fairness? It’s an incentive to raid.

People who do fractals will only have access to fractal back pieces. People who run Silverwastes will only have access to Luminescent armor. People who run Drytop will only have access to Ambrite weapons. There are places where you can only get certain things from them. Should all items and achievements be made available to all game modes? That doesn’t seem remotely reasonable.

Difference being stats give unfair advantage in pvp modes like wvw tell me how fractal backpiece helps u win at a certain game mode?

It doesn’t, and, in 1v1 WvW neither does a specific stat set necessarily. There are ways to get what you need stat-wise without sacrificing much at all, leaving you at most with a very slight disadvantage. That’s assuming nobody comes to your aid or they don’t trip up and miss a heal. At best, there are maybe 3 accessories with these rare stats you can’t get unless you raid.

If it makes you feel better, I’ve been an advocate of standardized armor in WvW like they have in PvP; everyone picks an amulet, runes, and sigils and that’s it.

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Difference being stats give unfair advantage in pvp modes like wvw …snip…

You’ve made this claim a few times. Can you please give a definitive example?

You seem to have one in mind if you so firmly believe this, so it might help the conversation to know more of where you’re coming from.

~EW

MiniEquine.6014:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

MiniEquine.6014:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

It’t not about being able to participate. I could use no gear and participate, lmao.
It’s about fairness in aquiring things, why should only those who raid have access?

What does that have to do with fairness? It’s an incentive to raid.

People who do fractals will only have access to fractal back pieces. People who run Silverwastes will only have access to Luminescent armor. People who run Drytop will only have access to Ambrite weapons. There are places where you can only get certain things from them. Should all items and achievements be made available to all game modes? That doesn’t seem remotely reasonable.

Difference being stats give unfair advantage in pvp modes like wvw tell me how fractal backpiece helps u win at a certain game mode?

It doesn’t, and, in 1v1 WvW neither does a specific stat set necessarily. There are ways to get what you need stat-wise without sacrificing much at all, leaving you at most with a very slight disadvantage. That’s assuming nobody comes to your aid or they don’t trip up and miss a heal. At best, there are maybe 3 accessories with these rare stats you can’t get unless you raid.

If it makes you feel better, I’ve been an advocate of standardized armor in WvW like they have in PvP; everyone picks an amulet, runes, and sigils and that’s it.

Good idea, but allow all of it to be selected fromt he pool that exists in pve, having pvp stats in wvw would be boring as hell.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Difference being stats give unfair advantage in pvp modes like wvw …snip…

You’ve made this claim a few times. Can you please give a definitive example?

You seem to have one in mind if you so firmly believe this, so it might help the conversation to know more of where you’re coming from.

~EW

Mathmaticalkly speaking, higher stat pool = advantage

Trepidation Lost.3469:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Difference being stats give unfair advantage in pvp modes like wvw …snip…

You’ve made this claim a few times. Can you please give a definitive example?

You seem to have one in mind if you so firmly believe this, so it might help the conversation to know more of where you’re coming from.

~EW

Mathmaticalkly speaking, higher stat pool = advantage

You can get Mauraders w/o stepping foot in HoT, as well as Celestial… both have higher stat pools.

So again, a definitive example please?

~EW

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Difference being stats give unfair advantage in pvp modes like wvw …snip…

You’ve made this claim a few times. Can you please give a definitive example?

You seem to have one in mind if you so firmly believe this, so it might help the conversation to know more of where you’re coming from.

~EW

Mathmaticalkly speaking, higher stat pool = advantage

You can get Mauraders w/o stepping foot in HoT, as well as Celestial… both have higher stat pools.

So again, a definitive example please?

~EW

My point was right, you must know that not all builds work best of marauders and celestial right? Take your point about marauder and celestial, which both do give advantages and then apply the same with crusaders trailbladers minstrels and so on and so forth. (I’m speaking trinkets earrings rings amulet, you cant get these outside of HoT, bar the amulet of salt from pvp which was actually changed by anert to not include HoT stats, funny huh) EVERYONE can use celestial with laurels, so this does not count, people who raid get all the other higher stat pool combo’s, thats the issue.

Celestial is actually really good for fluffing up all or your stats. If I recall correctly, each stat on Celestial armor is ~57% (maybe it got nerfed a bit, I don’t recall) of a primary stat on a 3-stat piece of equipment. This includes healing power, which doesn’t directly help damage, but Celestial was in the meta in PvP for a long time for a good reason.

Trepidation Lost.3469:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Difference being stats give unfair advantage in pvp modes like wvw …snip…

You’ve made this claim a few times. Can you please give a definitive example?

You seem to have one in mind if you so firmly believe this, so it might help the conversation to know more of where you’re coming from.

~EW

Mathmaticalkly speaking, higher stat pool = advantage

You can get Mauraders w/o stepping foot in HoT, as well as Celestial… both have higher stat pools.

So again, a definitive example please?

~EW

My point was right, you must know that not all builds work best of marauders and celestial right? Take your point about marauder and celestial, which both do give advantages and then apply the same with crusaders trailbladers minstrels and so on and so forth. (I’m speaking trinkets earrings rings amulet, you cant get these outside of HoT, bar the amulet of salt from pvp which was actually changed by anert to not include HoT stats, funny huh) EVERYONE can use celestial with laurels, so this does not count, people who raid get all the other higher stat pool combo’s, thats the issue.

No, what you said was “higher stat pool = advantage,” and I showed you can get equal or higher stat pool outside HoT numerically.

What you MEANT was having a larger pool of stat sets to choose from gives you the advantage. To this I also disagree. While people generally want to select the stats that work best for the build, it can also go the other way: You can choose a build to take full advantage of the stats you have available.

It might not be as fun that way, but we’re talking pure numerical advantages. You can get a numerically equal or superior stat pool outside HoT to those stats exclusive to HoT, and then build your character around that stat pool. There exists no advantage in HoT stats, only diversity of builds.

~EW

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Trepidation Lost.3469:

Difference being stats give unfair advantage in pvp modes like wvw …snip…

You’ve made this claim a few times. Can you please give a definitive example?

You seem to have one in mind if you so firmly believe this, so it might help the conversation to know more of where you’re coming from.

~EW

Mathmaticalkly speaking, higher stat pool = advantage

You can get Mauraders w/o stepping foot in HoT, as well as Celestial… both have higher stat pools.

So again, a definitive example please?

~EW

My point was right, you must know that not all builds work best of marauders and celestial right? Take your point about marauder and celestial, which both do give advantages and then apply the same with crusaders trailbladers minstrels and so on and so forth. (I’m speaking trinkets earrings rings amulet, you cant get these outside of HoT, bar the amulet of salt from pvp which was actually changed by anert to not include HoT stats, funny huh) EVERYONE can use celestial with laurels, so this does not count, people who raid get all the other higher stat pool combo’s, thats the issue.

No, what you said was “higher stat pool = advantage,” and I showed you can get equal or higher stat pool outside HoT numerically.

What you MEANT was having a larger pool of stat sets to choose from gives you the advantage. To this I also disagree. While people generally want to select the stats that work best for the build, it can also go the other way: You can choose a build to take full advantage of the stats you have available.

It might not be as fun that way, but we’re talking pure numerical advantages. You can get a numerically equal or superior stat pool outside HoT to those stats exclusive to HoT, and then build your character around that stat pool. There exists no advantage in HoT stats, only diversity of builds.

~EW

As someone who has theorycrafted roaming builds since beta i can say youre wrong here.

and again.

There is NO grind in the game.

unless…YOU decide to only do ONE thing without a break. The game does not force you stay in silverwastes for days? the game does not force you to grind levels only because YOU want to be fast. There is more than enough stuff you can do and if you for some reason decide to do only one thing over and over and over again than its nothing but your own fault. btw thats why i never go to silverwastes as i think its borin as hell but you know what?? NOONE forces me to do that. Theres even noone who forces you to play only guildwars 2. nothing in the game is “needed” everything you do, you do because you decided to do it.

people should consider if they know what the word “grind” actually means.

Trepidation Lost.3469:

As someone who has theorycrafted roaming builds since beta i can say youre wrong here.

Appeal to Authority is a logical fallacy, which is why I didn’t say a similar thing to you.

If you’ve only ever approached build theory-crafting from the one direction (best stats for build), then you don’t have the experience to confidently say I’m wrong when I suggest it can be approached from the other direction (best build for stats).

~EW

Well have that philosphy youll always lose ina 1v1 to me if you do

Pretty circular thread here, eh?

I can add to the mess that Grind =/= Access =/= Gating.

Grinding doesn’t relate to having access to something and that doesn’t prevent it from having certaing gates pre constructed.

Also Stats =/= Winning, and, the hardest to understand of all, Winning =/= Having the Reason. But… yeah, that one is circular.

Ardid.7203:

Pretty circular thread here, eh?

I can add to the mess that Grind =/= Access =/= Gating.

Grinding doesn’t relate to having access to something and that doesn’t prevent it from having certaing gates pre constructed.

Also Stats =/= Winning, and, the hardest to understand of all, Winning =/= Having the Reason. But… yeah, that one is circular.

Honestly, I’ve lost track of where we even are in this thread. It feels like the debate has shifted far off course.

LOL…. Just realised they realeased all these new legendaries… none of which I’ll be able to get.
I was looking at making Nevermore, then I saw the achievement collections, in addition to the maximum mastery (Nuhoch/Exalted etc) to get the gifts.

Is this for real? I’m now expected to do all the achievements for mastery points just to craft a single of the legendary weapons?

………………. Wow.

Guess I won’t be getting any. I’d rather not play than even continue to read through the contents of the huge collection lists.

Animism.9803:

LOL…. Just realised they realeased all these new legendaries… none of which I’ll be able to get.
I was looking at making Nevermore, then I saw the achievement collections, in addition to the maximum mastery (Nuhoch/Exalted etc) to get the gifts.

Is this for real? I’m now expected to do all the achievements for mastery points just to craft a single of the legendary weapons?

………………. Wow.

Guess I won’t be getting any. I’d rather not play than even continue to read through the contents of the huge collection lists.

Yes…that is what makes them legendary. -_-

Animism.9803:

LOL…. Just realised they realeased all these new legendaries… none of which I’ll be able to get.
I was looking at making Nevermore, then I saw the achievement collections, in addition to the maximum mastery (Nuhoch/Exalted etc) to get the gifts.

Is this for real? I’m now expected to do all the achievements for mastery points just to craft a single of the legendary weapons?

………………. Wow.

Guess I won’t be getting any. I’d rather not play than even continue to read through the contents of the huge collection lists.

It’s a long term goal and it’s supposed to push limits. That’s what legendary means. They’re doable. They’re not doable fast. You just have to take your time.

What’s the difference if you chip away at something for a year while doing other stuff?

Animism.9803:

LOL…. Just realised they realeased all these new legendaries… none of which I’ll be able to get.
I was looking at making Nevermore, then I saw the achievement collections, in addition to the maximum mastery (Nuhoch/Exalted etc) to get the gifts.

Is this for real? I’m now expected to do all the achievements for mastery points just to craft a single of the legendary weapons?

………………. Wow.

Guess I won’t be getting any. I’d rather not play than evens continue to read through the contents of the huge collection lists.

Not very legendary if you could just buy it off the TP,

But that’s the thing these days, everyone wants instant gratification. It takes some work to get it, but leveling them is not hard, not at all. With food,utility and XP boosters, you’ll ramp up your XP gain something crazy. I only started trying to max the lines with in the last month for the specialisation weapons collections. In around 28 hours I’ve makes exalted maxed, izel to leader ship, Nochu to proving and I’ve almost maxed gliding. As a by produced of this process, I’ve made around 250g, I’ve not had any great drops, I think the best I had was a fresh water perl that went for around 9g. I find doing meta maps and map completion the best way to get the xp. Kill any yellow mobs you find, they are almost never killed, and smoke scales seem to be left alot too.

I do not want to buy nevermore from TP , I want it to be a huge journey, so when i get it people know i worked for it (reckon i’m a year off from getting it as of now) – that’s what legendary items should be about.

Q) ‘Is this for real? I’m now expected to do all the achievements for mastery points just to craft a single of the legendary weapons?’

A) Your not expected to do anything.

The other parts of the legendary are already long enough without the individual HoT collections, the list of menial things to do in those is just too long…

Animism.9803:

The other parts of the legendary are already long enough without the individual HoT collections, the list of menial things to do in those is just too long…

I don’t think it’s too long. I think it’s fine for an account bound weapon that’s supposed to convey effort when someone wields it.

Shiyo.3578:

Nocturnal Lunacy.8563:

So having to do each living story 3 or 4 times in order to get all the achievements and hence the mastery point isn’t repetitive? Seems like a lot of you like them korean grindfests and think that this isn’t grind here.
Having to do and redo bosses isn’t grind? Having to keep doing fractals isn’t grind?
I’m sitting with full exp bars on all the available masteries but still earning exp is just a waste of time. But there’s no grind there at all is there? Too many fanbois and whiteknights here to accomplish anything.

You’re choosing to do those things. You don’t have to do any of those things to progress your character into BIS gear.

You don’t have to do anything, sitting in LA is not grind, but its not exactly fun either… Saying you don’t have to do any of that is just silly because if we don’t we aren’t playing the game at all…

So not logging in isn’t grind.. you are right there.. pretty silly though.

Animism.9803:

The other parts of the legendary are already long enough without the individual HoT collections, the list of menial things to do in those is just too long…

it ’s legendary, its meant to be a huge journey, and i think Nevermore (as an example) is at a nice length.

Being ‘menial’ is a classification you have applied in your head, especially considering you have to visit all content in the game pretty much to complete the tasks and gifts – so all gameplay in GW2 is therefore menial according to this state of mind., in which case why are you playing?

Dante.1508:

Shiyo.3578:

Nocturnal Lunacy.8563:

So having to do each living story 3 or 4 times in order to get all the achievements and hence the mastery point isn’t repetitive? Seems like a lot of you like them korean grindfests and think that this isn’t grind here.
Having to do and redo bosses isn’t grind? Having to keep doing fractals isn’t grind?
I’m sitting with full exp bars on all the available masteries but still earning exp is just a waste of time. But there’s no grind there at all is there? Too many fanbois and whiteknights here to accomplish anything.

You’re choosing to do those things. You don’t have to do any of those things to progress your character into BIS gear.

You don’t have to do anything, sitting in LA is not grind, but its not exactly fun either… Saying you don’t have to do any of that is just silly because if we don’t we aren’t playing the game at all…

So not logging in isn’t grind.. you are right there.. pretty silly though.

Right. but the elephant in the room no one mentions is that BIS gear is bis here for years at a time, not weeks or months. Anet introduced an expansion with no raised level cap and no new tier of gear.

And once you’ve made expensive stuff like armor and weapons, you can even change their stats cheaply in the mystic forge. And with the exception of the highest level fractals, you don’t need that gear to play anything in the game. That makes the grind not required, except for high level fractals which are designed specifically for the purpose of appeasing those who enjoy grind. And even that’s not that grindy.

So if you PLAY the game, just normally, eventually you can max out your gear without doing much else. The more casually you play the longer it’ll take, but so what? It’s not like you have to do it again.

I should also reiterate you don’t need that gear for anything but the highest level fractals.

What you’re doing here is taking the spirit of someone’s words and trying to twist it while ignoring the meaning.

You can easily make slow progress toward these goals without killing yourself. The option to grind is if you want to get it now.

And if that’s the case, that’s your choice. It’s still not being forced to grind.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Animism.9803:

The other parts of the legendary are already long enough without the individual HoT collections, the list of menial things to do in those is just too long…

it ’s legendary, its meant to be a huge journey, and i think Nevermore (as an example) is at a nice length.

Being ‘menial’ is a classification you have applied in your head, especially considering you have to visit all content in the game pretty much to complete the tasks and gifts – so all gameplay in GW2 is therefore menial according to this state of mind., in which case why are you playing?

If you re-read the comment, it’s regarding the lists of collections (HoT collection achievements)

I.e..

“https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nevermore_I:_Ravenswood_Branch”

That’s the first tier.
In what world, shape or form, are those tasks listed not menial?

Barely any of the lists contain new content or tasks – and is instead rehashed old content.

Vayne.8563:

Animism.9803:

LOL…. Just realised they realeased all these new legendaries… none of which I’ll be able to get.
I was looking at making Nevermore, then I saw the achievement collections, in addition to the maximum mastery (Nuhoch/Exalted etc) to get the gifts.

Is this for real? I’m now expected to do all the achievements for mastery points just to craft a single of the legendary weapons?

………………. Wow.

Guess I won’t be getting any. I’d rather not play than even continue to read through the contents of the huge collection lists.

It’s a long term goal and it’s supposed to push limits. That’s what legendary means. They’re doable. They’re not doable fast. You just have to take your time.

What’s the difference if you chip away at something for a year while doing other stuff?

No, I’m afraid that is not what “legendary” means. Well, maybe, if you’re taking the position that L. Items being related to actual legends is " a popular myth of recent origin."

mmorpg differ from single player games, repeatable content is required because there is no mmo on the planet that can generate new content that is played once and last for years. MmoRPG players get this. As I said ‘menial’ is a term in somebody’s head’ You could say repeating fights in PVP is ‘menial’ you could say fighting any form of NPC is ‘menial’ you could say crafting over and over is ‘menial’, you could say walking anywhere is ‘menial’. I’m going through that list of collections right now, and I don’t find it menial, I see it has a progressive set of goals that I am aiming towards over a number of years, and I guestimate ive spent maybe 50k hours in RPGs over the years, so theres little I have not seen in 1 form or another.

This ‘menial’ thing is actually ‘I Don’t like’

vesica tempestas.1563:

mmorpg differ from single player games, repeatable content is required because there is no mmo on the planet that can generate new content that is played once and last for years. MmoRPG players get this. As I said ‘menial’ is a term in somebody’s head’ You could say repeating fights in PVP is ‘menial’ you could say fighting any form of NPC is ‘menial’ you could say crafting over and over is ‘menial’, you could say walking anywhere is ‘menial’. I’m going through that list of collections right now, and I don’t find it menial, I see it has a progressive set of goals that I am aiming towards over a number of years, and I guestimate ive spent maybe 50k hours in RPGs over the years, so theres little I have not seen in 1 form or another.

This ‘menial’ thing is actually ‘I Don’t like’

Yes. I don’t like it because it’s menial. Because, that’s what it is. Lacking any prestige or skill. Maybe it’s just me, but the term ‘legendary’, gives me the idea that making it should have some prestige and be skillful along the way (hey, didn’t everyone else say that?)

“Purchased from Arias after assisting him in maintaining his garden. "
“Found within the Dragon Chest after defeating Tequatl the Sunless. "

Right. Because we haven’t all done such generic rubbish before. This is a definition of a grind, when it is not fun and it is menial.

And the lists go on.

Of course it is subjective and based on perspective. Good luck finding a large demographic of MMORPG players who fancy wasting their time doing pointless elements. May as well go play Runescape and level to 99 again. Sounds familiar.

I actually preferred the old legendaries; in that there were multiple ways to obtain them, and before anyone whines on about gold selling and purchasing online… having them as collections really changes nothing but kitten off the genuine players who would have potentially liked to have crafted said legendaries. Now the real ‘kiddies’ who would have previously bought legendaries will buy accounts with them. I don’t really understand the reasoning for this style, to be honest.

All you are doing is justifying your dislike of something with the term ‘Menial’. Long term collection goals have been in RPG’s since day 1 in the 70/80s. People who enjoyed them then, enjoy them now. The difference in this day and age is people seem to think because they don’t like a thing it must be poor design (sits along the other fad of calling something a ‘gate’). Those demographics you refer to are the very players that enjoy what you think is menial, and the players Anet clearly see as an important part of the player base and they have the metrics and experience to see this.

As for the old legendaries, I didn’t like them Because they could be bought, and like the new ones because they require long term effort. You just don’t understand or enjoy long term RPG goals that have an element of collecting about them

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Animism.9803:

LOL…. Just realised they realeased all these new legendaries… none of which I’ll be able to get.
I was looking at making Nevermore, then I saw the achievement collections, in addition to the maximum mastery (Nuhoch/Exalted etc) to get the gifts.

Is this for real? I’m now expected to do all the achievements for mastery points just to craft a single of the legendary weapons?

………………. Wow.

Guess I won’t be getting any. I’d rather not play than even continue to read through the contents of the huge collection lists.

It’s a long term goal and it’s supposed to push limits. That’s what legendary means. They’re doable. They’re not doable fast. You just have to take your time.

What’s the difference if you chip away at something for a year while doing other stuff?

No, I’m afraid that is not what “legendary” means. Well, maybe, if you’re taking the position that L. Items being related to actual legends is " a popular myth of recent origin."

It’s what legendary means in games. Within context, it’s what legendary means. It’s supposed to stretch you, push you, and yes, make you jump through hoops. That’s what legendaries are in most games I’ve played.

Obviously we’re talking about legendary items, not legendary in the dictionary definition just like a mob isn’t one guy outside MMOs. Sometimes context is everything.

Animism.9803:

vesica tempestas.1563:

mmorpg differ from single player games, repeatable content is required because there is no mmo on the planet that can generate new content that is played once and last for years. MmoRPG players get this. As I said ‘menial’ is a term in somebody’s head’ You could say repeating fights in PVP is ‘menial’ you could say fighting any form of NPC is ‘menial’ you could say crafting over and over is ‘menial’, you could say walking anywhere is ‘menial’. I’m going through that list of collections right now, and I don’t find it menial, I see it has a progressive set of goals that I am aiming towards over a number of years, and I guestimate ive spent maybe 50k hours in RPGs over the years, so theres little I have not seen in 1 form or another.

This ‘menial’ thing is actually ‘I Don’t like’

Yes. I don’t like it because it’s menial. Because, that’s what it is. Lacking any prestige or skill. Maybe it’s just me, but the term ‘legendary’, gives me the idea that making it should have some prestige and be skillful along the way (hey, didn’t everyone else say that?)

“Purchased from Arias after assisting him in maintaining his garden. "
“Found within the Dragon Chest after defeating Tequatl the Sunless. "

Right. Because we haven’t all done such generic rubbish before. This is a definition of a grind, when it is not fun and it is menial.

And the lists go on.

Of course it is subjective and based on perspective. Good luck finding a large demographic of MMORPG players who fancy wasting their time doing pointless elements. May as well go play Runescape and level to 99 again. Sounds familiar.

I actually preferred the old legendaries; in that there were multiple ways to obtain them, and before anyone whines on about gold selling and purchasing online… having them as collections really changes nothing but kitten off the genuine players who would have potentially liked to have crafted said legendaries. Now the real ‘kiddies’ who would have previously bought legendaries will buy accounts with them. I don’t really understand the reasoning for this style, to be honest.

But there is a big demographic of people who do this stuff. They’re called roleplayers or immersion players.

Like when I made the precursor for Kudzu, I had to go all around the world gathering flowers to plant in a garden. Each thing I’ve done before. Nothing really amazing. But the idea of what I was doing made it interesting for me. I wasn’t playing a mechanic, I was planting a garden.

If you play the game only looking at mechanics, as many do, the whole legendary quest is menial. If you go through the game with a roleplayers mind, you see a different process altogether.

There are a lot of you out there. But there are also a lot of us out there.

vesica tempestas.1563:

All you are doing is justifying your dislike of something with the term ‘Menial’. Long term collection goals have been in RPG’s since day 1 in the 70/80s. People who enjoyed them then, enjoy them now. The difference in this day and age is people seem to think because they don’t like a thing it must be poor design (sits along the other fad of calling something a ‘gate’). Those demographics you refer to are the very players that enjoy what you think is menial, and the players Anet clearly see as an important part of the player base and they have the metrics and experience to see this.

As for the old legendaries, I didn’t like them Because they could be bought, and like the new ones because they require long term effort. You just don’t understand or enjoy long term RPG goals that have an element of collecting about them

No it’s because over time as the target audience grew, people realised that such designs were poor and didn’t attract a large player base.

There is no logic to your argument. You didn’t like the old legendaries because they could be bought? So can the new ones technically?
What does a list of bizzare tasks do to make anything different?

The old legendaries were still a long enough challenge to craft yourself, or obtain the gold to buy them.

And again… we aren’t talking about long-term collection goals, i’m not debating that; we’re talking about absurd lists of irrelevant tasks.

" Anet clearly see as an important part of the player base and they have the metrics and experience to see this." – Isn’t this nice and subjective. You mean like all the players who quit? Long-standing fans of Anet? The potential players lost by the array of negative reviews? Your idea of an ‘important’ part of the player-base is sketchy at best.
In my mind, Anet CLEARLY have tried all along with GW2 to open the demographic as wide as they could. – Esports, WvW, PvE contasts.

Trying to satisfy one crowd would be ridiculous, why not satisfy all possible? – and on that note, we could engage in a massive discussion about how elements didn’t live up to expectations and left masses dis-satisfied.

Vayne.8563:

Animism.9803:

vesica tempestas.1563:

mmorpg differ from single player games, repeatable content is required because there is no mmo on the planet that can generate new content that is played once and last for years. MmoRPG players get this. As I said ‘menial’ is a term in somebody’s head’ You could say repeating fights in PVP is ‘menial’ you could say fighting any form of NPC is ‘menial’ you could say crafting over and over is ‘menial’, you could say walking anywhere is ‘menial’. I’m going through that list of collections right now, and I don’t find it menial, I see it has a progressive set of goals that I am aiming towards over a number of years, and I guestimate ive spent maybe 50k hours in RPGs over the years, so theres little I have not seen in 1 form or another.

This ‘menial’ thing is actually ‘I Don’t like’

Yes. I don’t like it because it’s menial. Because, that’s what it is. Lacking any prestige or skill. Maybe it’s just me, but the term ‘legendary’, gives me the idea that making it should have some prestige and be skillful along the way (hey, didn’t everyone else say that?)

“Purchased from Arias after assisting him in maintaining his garden. "
“Found within the Dragon Chest after defeating Tequatl the Sunless. "

Right. Because we haven’t all done such generic rubbish before. This is a definition of a grind, when it is not fun and it is menial.

And the lists go on.

Of course it is subjective and based on perspective. Good luck finding a large demographic of MMORPG players who fancy wasting their time doing pointless elements. May as well go play Runescape and level to 99 again. Sounds familiar.

I actually preferred the old legendaries; in that there were multiple ways to obtain them, and before anyone whines on about gold selling and purchasing online… having them as collections really changes nothing but kitten off the genuine players who would have potentially liked to have crafted said legendaries. Now the real ‘kiddies’ who would have previously bought legendaries will buy accounts with them. I don’t really understand the reasoning for this style, to be honest.

But there is a big demographic of people who do this stuff. They’re called roleplayers or immersion players.

Like when I made the precursor for Kudzu, I had to go all around the world gathering flowers to plant in a garden. Each thing I’ve done before. Nothing really amazing. But the idea of what I was doing made it interesting for me. I wasn’t playing a mechanic, I was planting a garden.

If you play the game only looking at mechanics, as many do, the whole legendary quest is menial. If you go through the game with a roleplayers mind, you see a different process altogether.

There are a lot of you out there. But there are also a lot of us out there.

That is fine, I have no quarrel with this. Roleplayers are a part of the MMORPG scene, and I somewhat enjoy elements of it. I wouldn’t suggest to remove such elements, but change in a way in which other types of players will also be able to enjoy.

A great example could even be the Tyria mastery points. I have absolutely no interest or intention of completing the LS2 story achievements for mastery points – I quite despise the achievement designs and was not a fan of the story, but I wouldn’t have them removed. Why they tied a large game element to it when there was so much backlash to the living world, I don’t have a clue.

Animism.9803:

Vayne.8563:

Animism.9803:

vesica tempestas.1563:

mmorpg differ from single player games, repeatable content is required because there is no mmo on the planet that can generate new content that is played once and last for years. MmoRPG players get this. As I said ‘menial’ is a term in somebody’s head’ You could say repeating fights in PVP is ‘menial’ you could say fighting any form of NPC is ‘menial’ you could say crafting over and over is ‘menial’, you could say walking anywhere is ‘menial’. I’m going through that list of collections right now, and I don’t find it menial, I see it has a progressive set of goals that I am aiming towards over a number of years, and I guestimate ive spent maybe 50k hours in RPGs over the years, so theres little I have not seen in 1 form or another.

This ‘menial’ thing is actually ‘I Don’t like’

Yes. I don’t like it because it’s menial. Because, that’s what it is. Lacking any prestige or skill. Maybe it’s just me, but the term ‘legendary’, gives me the idea that making it should have some prestige and be skillful along the way (hey, didn’t everyone else say that?)

“Purchased from Arias after assisting him in maintaining his garden. "
“Found within the Dragon Chest after defeating Tequatl the Sunless. "

Right. Because we haven’t all done such generic rubbish before. This is a definition of a grind, when it is not fun and it is menial.

And the lists go on.

Of course it is subjective and based on perspective. Good luck finding a large demographic of MMORPG players who fancy wasting their time doing pointless elements. May as well go play Runescape and level to 99 again. Sounds familiar.

I actually preferred the old legendaries; in that there were multiple ways to obtain them, and before anyone whines on about gold selling and purchasing online… having them as collections really changes nothing but kitten off the genuine players who would have potentially liked to have crafted said legendaries. Now the real ‘kiddies’ who would have previously bought legendaries will buy accounts with them. I don’t really understand the reasoning for this style, to be honest.

But there is a big demographic of people who do this stuff. They’re called roleplayers or immersion players.

Like when I made the precursor for Kudzu, I had to go all around the world gathering flowers to plant in a garden. Each thing I’ve done before. Nothing really amazing. But the idea of what I was doing made it interesting for me. I wasn’t playing a mechanic, I was planting a garden.

If you play the game only looking at mechanics, as many do, the whole legendary quest is menial. If you go through the game with a roleplayers mind, you see a different process altogether.

There are a lot of you out there. But there are also a lot of us out there.

That is fine, I have no quarrel with this. Roleplayers are a part of the MMORPG scene, and I somewhat enjoy elements of it. I wouldn’t suggest to remove such elements, but change in a way in which other types of players will also be able to enjoy.

A great example could even be the Tyria mastery points. I have absolutely no interest or intention of completing the LS2 story achievements for mastery points – I quite despise the achievement designs and was not a fan of the story, but I wouldn’t have them removed. Why they tied a large game element to it when there was so much backlash to the living world, I don’t have a clue.

Unfortunately this is not the way to run a business. People think it is. They think appeal to everyone. You can’t run a business appealing to everyone or you’ll run out of money and time. Some people won’t like your product and those people will leave. Or they’ll complain on forums.

But they’re still not a huge majority and that’s the issue. Let’s say you look at the number of people over all who work on legendaries. My guess it it’s already a small percent of the game. Then you take that and you divide it from the core legendaries. We know not everyone has hot and not everyone who has it likes it or plays it. That means only a subset of people who work on legendaries will be working on hot legendaries.

As they are each of these legendary quests takes time to make, reusing the older content. Imagine how much harder/more time consuming/more costly they would be to make a different quest chain of challenging stuff for guys like you.

Then you have guys that don’t like the challenge complaining that they can’t get them.

You kitten off one subset or the other. But kittening off one is cheaper, because the other one demands more time and energy be spent. I hate to break it to you but I don’t think there are enough of you to put that into the budget, strictly as a business decision.

In fact, we see that legendaries, new ones, don’t have enough backing to suggest to Anet that would be a valuable use of resources, since they put all the new legendaries on indefinite hold.

So how much less likely is it then that they’re going to cater to the more demanding demographic. You may want that. You may prefer it, but many other people won’t prefer it, and then you end up with too much money to do this thing and it’s gone.

Every time people demand challenging content and Anet obliges, a fairly large demographic of casual players feels more and more disenfranchised. Legendaries is one of the things that can keep those players playing.

Why would Anet change that?

Vayne.8563:

Animism.9803:

Vayne.8563:

Animism.9803:

vesica tempestas.1563:

mmorpg differ from single player games, repeatable content is required because there is no mmo on the planet that can generate new content that is played once and last for years. MmoRPG players get this. As I said ‘menial’ is a term in somebody’s head’ You could say repeating fights in PVP is ‘menial’ you could say fighting any form of NPC is ‘menial’ you could say crafting over and over is ‘menial’, you could say walking anywhere is ‘menial’. I’m going through that list of collections right now, and I don’t find it menial, I see it has a progressive set of goals that I am aiming towards over a number of years, and I guestimate ive spent maybe 50k hours in RPGs over the years, so theres little I have not seen in 1 form or another.

This ‘menial’ thing is actually ‘I Don’t like’

Yes. I don’t like it because it’s menial. Because, that’s what it is. Lacking any prestige or skill. Maybe it’s just me, but the term ‘legendary’, gives me the idea that making it should have some prestige and be skillful along the way (hey, didn’t everyone else say that?)

“Purchased from Arias after assisting him in maintaining his garden. "
“Found within the Dragon Chest after defeating Tequatl the Sunless. "

Right. Because we haven’t all done such generic rubbish before. This is a definition of a grind, when it is not fun and it is menial.

And the lists go on.

Of course it is subjective and based on perspective. Good luck finding a large demographic of MMORPG players who fancy wasting their time doing pointless elements. May as well go play Runescape and level to 99 again. Sounds familiar.

I actually preferred the old legendaries; in that there were multiple ways to obtain them, and before anyone whines on about gold selling and purchasing online… having them as collections really changes nothing but kitten off the genuine players who would have potentially liked to have crafted said legendaries. Now the real ‘kiddies’ who would have previously bought legendaries will buy accounts with them. I don’t really understand the reasoning for this style, to be honest.

But there is a big demographic of people who do this stuff. They’re called roleplayers or immersion players.

Like when I made the precursor for Kudzu, I had to go all around the world gathering flowers to plant in a garden. Each thing I’ve done before. Nothing really amazing. But the idea of what I was doing made it interesting for me. I wasn’t playing a mechanic, I was planting a garden.

If you play the game only looking at mechanics, as many do, the whole legendary quest is menial. If you go through the game with a roleplayers mind, you see a different process altogether.

There are a lot of you out there. But there are also a lot of us out there.

That is fine, I have no quarrel with this. Roleplayers are a part of the MMORPG scene, and I somewhat enjoy elements of it. I wouldn’t suggest to remove such elements, but change in a way in which other types of players will also be able to enjoy.

A great example could even be the Tyria mastery points. I have absolutely no interest or intention of completing the LS2 story achievements for mastery points – I quite despise the achievement designs and was not a fan of the story, but I wouldn’t have them removed. Why they tied a large game element to it when there was so much backlash to the living world, I don’t have a clue.

Unfortunately this is not the way to run a business. People think it is. They think appeal to everyone. You can’t run a business appealing to everyone or you’ll run out of money and time. Some people won’t like your product and those people will leave. Or they’ll complain on forums.

But they’re still not a huge majority and that’s the issue. Let’s say you look at the number of people over all who work on legendaries. My guess it it’s already a small percent of the game. Then you take that and you divide it from the core legendaries. We know not everyone has hot and not everyone who has it likes it or plays it. That means only a subset of people who work on legendaries will be working on hot legendaries.

As they are each of these legendary quests takes time to make, reusing the older content. Imagine how much harder/more time consuming/more costly they would be to make a different quest chain of challenging stuff for guys like you.

Then you have guys that don’t like the challenge complaining that they can’t get them.

You kitten off one subset or the other. But kittening off one is cheaper, because the other one demands more time and energy be spent. I hate to break it to you but I don’t think there are enough of you to put that into the budget, strictly as a business decision.

In fact, we see that legendaries, new ones, don’t have enough backing to suggest to Anet that would be a valuable use of resources, since they put all the new legendaries on indefinite hold.

So how much less likely is it then that they’re going to cater to the more demanding demographic. You may want that. You may prefer it, but many other people won’t prefer it, and then you end up with too much money to do this thing and it’s gone.

Every time people demand challenging content and Anet obliges, a fairly large demographic of casual players feels more and more disenfranchised. Legendaries is one of the things that can keep those players playing.

Why would Anet change that?

They changed the status quo of legendaries from core to HoT. That surely deters more players than it benefits.

I agree with what you say though, although I don’t believe that the content expected for new legendaries would be unreasonable, especially if in a context where more players would be interested in it as a result of new players and an ‘unchanging’ system.

When I heard about the upcoming legendaries, by the description, I was expecting them to be much easier to obtain than the previous legendaries.

I still think Anet are trying to cover everything – GW1 was succesful by lore and game mechanics, the latter which GW2 definitely progressed. I think if Anet were trying to solely target their main demographic, then the story for Heart of Thorns and lore involved would be written and presented better. The story was and has always been my largest concern for GW2.

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Animism.9803:

LOL…. Just realised they realeased all these new legendaries… none of which I’ll be able to get.
I was looking at making Nevermore, then I saw the achievement collections, in addition to the maximum mastery (Nuhoch/Exalted etc) to get the gifts.

Is this for real? I’m now expected to do all the achievements for mastery points just to craft a single of the legendary weapons?

………………. Wow.

Guess I won’t be getting any. I’d rather not play than even continue to read through the contents of the huge collection lists.

It’s a long term goal and it’s supposed to push limits. That’s what legendary means. They’re doable. They’re not doable fast. You just have to take your time.

What’s the difference if you chip away at something for a year while doing other stuff?

No, I’m afraid that is not what “legendary” means. Well, maybe, if you’re taking the position that L. Items being related to actual legends is " a popular myth of recent origin."

It’s what legendary means in games. Within context, it’s what legendary means. It’s supposed to stretch you, push you, and yes, make you jump through hoops. That’s what legendaries are in most games I’ve played.

Obviously we’re talking about legendary items, not legendary in the dictionary definition just like a mob isn’t one guy outside MMOs. Sometimes context is everything.

Could have fooled me. I thought that in MMO’s it meant this takes a long bloody time and you aren’t going to enjoy the process. Jump through hoops, I’ll buy, but not stretch you and push you. The use of the term “legendary” is an attempt to give some sort of mystique to items that are really nothing more than a lot of busy work. However, that’s what MMO’s are, anyway, so I guess I’ll cede the point.

Anet have a long history of providing long term gathering goals, and GW1 had many forms including the HOM which was a great model (I still wear the gloves today) Some people don’t like it, but in the GW franchise the long term goal is not power but collections and prestigious items that take long term collection effort, and has become the mmoRPG of choice for those that love collecting and games that are not obsessed with proving yourself to be no 1 every 5 seconds. Those that do not get this should consider the goals that GW1 and GW2 have provided in the last 15 years, and the relationship between those goals and the ability for the game to offer something different in a competitive game genre.

Animism.9803:

Vayne.8563:

Animism.9803:

Vayne.8563:

Animism.9803:

vesica tempestas.1563:

mmorpg differ from single player games, repeatable content is required because there is no mmo on the planet that can generate new content that is played once and last for years. MmoRPG players get this. As I said ‘menial’ is a term in somebody’s head’ You could say repeating fights in PVP is ‘menial’ you could say fighting any form of NPC is ‘menial’ you could say crafting over and over is ‘menial’, you could say walking anywhere is ‘menial’. I’m going through that list of collections right now, and I don’t find it menial, I see it has a progressive set of goals that I am aiming towards over a number of years, and I guestimate ive spent maybe 50k hours in RPGs over the years, so theres little I have not seen in 1 form or another.

This ‘menial’ thing is actually ‘I Don’t like’

Yes. I don’t like it because it’s menial. Because, that’s what it is. Lacking any prestige or skill. Maybe it’s just me, but the term ‘legendary’, gives me the idea that making it should have some prestige and be skillful along the way (hey, didn’t everyone else say that?)

“Purchased from Arias after assisting him in maintaining his garden. "
“Found within the Dragon Chest after defeating Tequatl the Sunless. "

Right. Because we haven’t all done such generic rubbish before. This is a definition of a grind, when it is not fun and it is menial.

And the lists go on.

Of course it is subjective and based on perspective. Good luck finding a large demographic of MMORPG players who fancy wasting their time doing pointless elements. May as well go play Runescape and level to 99 again. Sounds familiar.

I actually preferred the old legendaries; in that there were multiple ways to obtain them, and before anyone whines on about gold selling and purchasing online… having them as collections really changes nothing but kitten off the genuine players who would have potentially liked to have crafted said legendaries. Now the real ‘kiddies’ who would have previously bought legendaries will buy accounts with them. I don’t really understand the reasoning for this style, to be honest.

But there is a big demographic of people who do this stuff. They’re called roleplayers or immersion players.

Like when I made the precursor for Kudzu, I had to go all around the world gathering flowers to plant in a garden. Each thing I’ve done before. Nothing really amazing. But the idea of what I was doing made it interesting for me. I wasn’t playing a mechanic, I was planting a garden.

If you play the game only looking at mechanics, as many do, the whole legendary quest is menial. If you go through the game with a roleplayers mind, you see a different process altogether.

There are a lot of you out there. But there are also a lot of us out there.

That is fine, I have no quarrel with this. Roleplayers are a part of the MMORPG scene, and I somewhat enjoy elements of it. I wouldn’t suggest to remove such elements, but change in a way in which other types of players will also be able to enjoy.

A great example could even be the Tyria mastery points. I have absolutely no interest or intention of completing the LS2 story achievements for mastery points – I quite despise the achievement designs and was not a fan of the story, but I wouldn’t have them removed. Why they tied a large game element to it when there was so much backlash to the living world, I don’t have a clue.

Unfortunately this is not the way to run a business. People think it is. They think appeal to everyone. You can’t run a business appealing to everyone or you’ll run out of money and time. Some people won’t like your product and those people will leave. Or they’ll complain on forums.

But they’re still not a huge majority and that’s the issue. Let’s say you look at the number of people over all who work on legendaries. My guess it it’s already a small percent of the game. Then you take that and you divide it from the core legendaries. We know not everyone has hot and not everyone who has it likes it or plays it. That means only a subset of people who work on legendaries will be working on hot legendaries.

As they are each of these legendary quests takes time to make, reusing the older content. Imagine how much harder/more time consuming/more costly they would be to make a different quest chain of challenging stuff for guys like you.

Then you have guys that don’t like the challenge complaining that they can’t get them.

You kitten off one subset or the other. But kittening off one is cheaper, because the other one demands more time and energy be spent. I hate to break it to you but I don’t think there are enough of you to put that into the budget, strictly as a business decision.

In fact, we see that legendaries, new ones, don’t have enough backing to suggest to Anet that would be a valuable use of resources, since they put all the new legendaries on indefinite hold.

So how much less likely is it then that they’re going to cater to the more demanding demographic. You may want that. You may prefer it, but many other people won’t prefer it, and then you end up with too much money to do this thing and it’s gone.

Every time people demand challenging content and Anet obliges, a fairly large demographic of casual players feels more and more disenfranchised. Legendaries is one of the things that can keep those players playing.

Why would Anet change that?

They changed the status quo of legendaries from core to HoT. That surely deters more players than it benefits.

I agree with what you say though, although I don’t believe that the content expected for new legendaries would be unreasonable, especially if in a context where more players would be interested in it as a result of new players and an ‘unchanging’ system.

When I heard about the upcoming legendaries, by the description, I was expecting them to be much easier to obtain than the previous legendaries.

I still think Anet are trying to cover everything – GW1 was succesful by lore and game mechanics, the latter which GW2 definitely progressed. I think if Anet were trying to solely target their main demographic, then the story for Heart of Thorns and lore involved would be written and presented better. The story was and has always been my largest concern for GW2.

They changed it to make it more legendary for people like me. I didn’t like the original legendary system and thought it sucked. I like this better. They changed it to give it more depth and it doesn’t have more depth if you play for immersion and flavor. That’s what a lot of this game is about.

That’s why you see so many rangers, even though people say rangers aren’t go. People like those characters…for immersion.

I find these quests, even though they’re more expensive, less tedious than the other quests. More interesting than the other.

Nocturnal Lunacy.8563:

So having to do each living story 3 or 4 times in order to get all the achievements and hence the mastery point isn’t repetitive? Seems like a lot of you like them korean grindfests and think that this isn’t grind here.

Koreans don’t do the same content 3 or 4 times… they do it 3 or 4… hundred…times.

So no, doing the same story step a couple of times, especially given how short most of them are, is not a big deal.

People define grind in different ways. You, like most, consider playing the game in any way you don’t like to be “grinding”. Got to go back and kill a boss you already did once? Oh no…let me reach for my grind alarm.

Nocturnal Lunacy.8563:

So in order to get all the mastery points for central tyria you have to grind out the living story for them. This is ridiculous.

Grinding them is your choice, you can always play game as usual and eventually you’ll have all the masteries.

mbhalo.1547:

Nocturnal Lunacy.8563:

So in order to get all the mastery points for central tyria you have to grind out the living story for them. This is ridiculous.

Grinding them is your choice, you can always play game as usual and eventually you’ll have all the masteries.

I think he is talking about repeating 20+ the same story until he get a AP for the mastery point. Is the same as repeating the same adventure to get gold for the mastery point.

It is a pain that means to an end. But for me it is unnecessary, but without it the game would be too easy… Sooo idk, I decided to stop getting mastery point for a time to rest and concentrated on pvp.

Hopefully I will have renewed energy to grind the story and adventures once more later.

Jhoul.6923:

mbhalo.1547:

Nocturnal Lunacy.8563:

So in order to get all the mastery points for central tyria you have to grind out the living story for them. This is ridiculous.

Grinding them is your choice, you can always play game as usual and eventually you’ll have all the masteries.

I think he is talking about repeating 20+ the same story until he get a AP for the mastery point. Is the same as repeating the same adventure to get gold for the mastery point.

It is a pain that means to an end. But for me it is unnecessary, but without it the game would be too easy… Sooo idk, I decided to stop getting mastery point for a time to rest and concentrated on pvp.

Hopefully I will have renewed energy to grind the story and adventures once more later.

You may be repeating the same story, however, you’re not repeating the same content. It’s like AC. There are different paths that are very similar. But no one says that playing Path 1 is the same as path 2. They’re different paths.

You do the story once, to get the story. Then you have side tasks. Different quests. You’re going to the same place, but you’re doing different things.

If this is grinding, it’s a usage of the word I’ve never heard.

Vayne.8563:

You may be repeating the same story, however, you’re not repeating the same content.

They are when they’re attempting the same achievement for the nth time, which is only worsened by the parts that can’t be skipped. It’s not actually a grind in the traditional sense, but since they only want the mastery point, they feel forced into doing it, which makes it feel like a grind.

Healix.5819:

Vayne.8563:

You may be repeating the same story, however, you’re not repeating the same content.

They are when they’re attempting the same achievement for the nth time, which is only worsened by the parts that can’t be skipped. It’s not actually a grind in the traditional sense, but since they only want the mastery point, they feel forced into doing it, which makes it feel like a grind.

No, it’s not grind. Grind does not equal repetition. Technically until you beat a raid, you have to keep trying. When you finally beat it, after dozens of tries, or hundreds, you feel great. But no one calls one raid grind. It’s only grind when you have to repeat it after you beat it.

Something can suck without being grind.