Guild Wars 2

SkyShroud.2865:

maddoctor.2738:

SkyShroud.2865:

It is about scaling of guild hall cost and not open-world conquest scaling.

The question still stands: how are you going to scale guild hall costs? Based on what?

Apparently you didn’t read the other posts, I didn’t suggest scaling, I never think that scaling guild hall cost can be fair in any way. You should read the posts.

The question was aimed at everyone who thinks that scaling the guild hall cost is a good thing. Although they mentioned it multiple times, there is no explanation on how it would work.

If you want then another question is: if we agree that there is a problem with the current system, how do we solve it? Not with scaling, but how?

maddoctor.2738:

SkyShroud.2865:

maddoctor.2738:

SkyShroud.2865:

It is about scaling of guild hall cost and not open-world conquest scaling.

The question still stands: how are you going to scale guild hall costs? Based on what?

Apparently you didn’t read the other posts, I didn’t suggest scaling, I never think that scaling guild hall cost can be fair in any way. You should read the posts.

The question was aimed at everyone who thinks that scaling the guild hall cost is a good thing. Although they mentioned it multiple times, there is no explanation on how it would work.

If you want then another question is: if we agree that there is a problem with the current system, how do we solve it? Not with scaling, but how?

Ok…because you quoted it so I thought you asking me

SkyShroud.2865:

GreyWolf.8670:

SkyShroud.2865:

How can that be? Scaling in open world is fair because every single player is subjected to it. How do you suggest it to apply to guild hall in a way that doesn’t discriminate and selectively subject guilds.

Are there not tiers for guild size already? Capturing a guild hall could be scaled to accommodate any amount of players that fit in that tier.

If a 200-player guild can only get 10 people together to do it then that guild may have too many inactive players and need to downsize.

It is about scaling of guild hall cost and not open-world conquest scaling. Even the guild hall expedition scaling is kitten bad, a 80-men guild hall expedition is hell lot more difficult than a 5-men guild hall expedition, the server can’t handle a 80-men without crashing either.

Also, why should one pay more for something others pay less to obtain? Giving you a realistic scenario, there are two houses side by side each other and both are exactly the same in functionalities but one is twice the price of the other. Are you gonna buy the pricey one or the cheaper one?

I don’t think you read my response completely. I wasn’t talking about outdoor content, and I agree. Why should I have to pay for the guild hall part of the expansion if I can’t use it?

maddoctor.2738:

Bloodstealer.5978:

As for SkyShroud now resorting to “its not fair to scale”… seriously its the fairest way any MMO provides content and features to all… the same way a 100 man zerg should have an event scaled up in order to succeed but scaled down when 10players take on the same thing.. doesn’t mean its easier for any of the groups.. its about striking a balance between time, effort and costs and as it stands, there is no such balance its completely off the scale.

How exactly would that scaling work in the game? Got any specific idea aside from “scale is awesome”?

And to be more specific, the first upgrade you must finish for the Guild Hall is called Tavern Restoration 1 which requires the following:

250 Elder Wood Plank
250 Mithril Ingot
50 Bottle of Elonian Wine
10 Empty Keg
50 Glass Mug
20 Obsidian Shard
25 Bolt of Silk
100 Cured Thick Leather Square
10 Bolt of Gossamer
10 Cured Hardened Leather Square
and 100 Favor

Go ahead and “scale it”

I have explained how it works.. its been common within guild functionality across many MMO’s for donkey’s.. read through threads before jumping in with guessworks and lack of discussion.
And yes.. you can scale Tav 1.. its based on the required efforts per player within guild tiers.. in order to keep it fair and inclusive for all those values and costs should be apportioned a lot more fairly based on your guild tier.. in doing so Guilds are able to make a choice on what size of hall and what amount of functionality they strive for within their permitted availability.. but as usual ANET took the route to least amount of development with the least amount of efforts in order to maximise their gem sale potential… ooh so very typical F2P.
250 mithril, 250 elder wood etc is nothing to 300-500 guild size.. but to 10 players its still a heck a lot of time spent farming trees instead of playing the content across the game.. 50 bottles of wine is nothing for a 300-500 guild to pay for… for 10 players that’s a shed load more outlay each…. and this is merely Tav 1.
So if you want to keep those values inline for all.. the larger guilds should be looking to outlay more per player that has been put in place, in order to fund a guild hall large enough to accommodate that size and the functionality it offers.
This is not rocket science, its not a new concept.. after all the guild grew based on the leaders desire to be large and the strategy/organisation put into making it large… but those decisions should now be made to be considered more carefully because there should be more responsibility placed on the guild when looking at what they can afford, how long it will take and who is going to do it.

I will use the house buyer analogy again, cos you obviously failed to read through the thread.
A young couple looking for their first home have a choice of buying premade small 2bed, 3bed, 4bed or mansion or castle – logic suggests they start small and upscale as their family size and function requirements.
Lets not even consider the build time if we were to take that into a house builder analogy.. time, cost and effort should be made fair across the game but like so many other poorly thought through features ANET simply couldn’t be bothered because the gold sink and gem sales were higher priority.. personally I hope this crap come back to bite them in the backside, cos to me its a pretty desperate and short-sighted approach.

Bloodstealer.5978:

I have explained how it works.. its been common within guild functionality across many MMO’s for donkey’s.. read through threads before jumping in with guessworks and lack of discussion.

I asked for it pages ago and got no answer. And your suggestion lacks important details. So before making comments about mmo functionality read what you post and provide actual details.

in order to keep it fair and inclusive for all those values and costs should be apportioned a lot more fairly based on your guild tier..

Care to explain how the tiers will work? I mean at how many players will guild tiers change at?

This is not rocket science, its not a new concept.. after all the guild grew based on the leaders desire to be large and the strategy/organisation put into making it large… but those decisions should now be made to be considered more carefully because there should be more responsibility placed on the guild when looking at what they can afford, how long it will take and who is going to do it.

Have you ever been to a gaming community in a game that then wanted to move to another game? I’d guess probably not.

I will use the house buyer analogy again, cos you obviously failed to read through the thread.

I read the thread, you didn’t provide details though. Details about tiers, details about what happens if you move a tier while upgrades are in progress, what happens if you LOSE tiers. Yeah you failed to provide any kind of meaningful arguments just “I want scaling and it would work based on tiers”, sadly that’s NOTHING. It doesn’t show how a system like this would work, it doesn’t provide ANY information at all.

What I find funny with your posts is that you first say that systems like this have been used in other MMOs and you can’t provide any kind of details about them. Being a little bit specific (since other MMOs do it) wouldn’t hurt have an actual discussion. IF you want to just post nonsense then go ahead continue with your posts saying I failed to read while there is absolutely nothing to read in your posts. I will read when there is something to read

To wrap it up: Taxi Wars 2 became the hostile cesspool other mmo games have so nicely proven to be successful. Good job Anet.

The only thing I really am wondering about is, if the decision about the change of the game’s direction was made be the development team or by the management.

I sincerely hope it was the latter, because I don’t want to know that the developers and the creative team killed the game for me.

maddoctor.2738:

Dejavu.2349:

Not sure why clarification was needed, but there ya go.

Then what’s the solution? It’s good to identify a problem before moving to fix it, however I haven’t seen yet a valid solution to the current problem. I even asked how other games did it, because according to some posters “other games have been doing it for 10 years”, yet I haven’t seen a solid answer yet.

The obvious solution, which Anet did not use unfortunately, would have been to lean more on timegated resources like aetherium and favour, as well as event/activity based unlocks, and less on material sinks.

The next solution in line would be to base the cost on the guild size (not the number of current members, but on unlocked guild cap), where upping the guild cap after building guild upgrades would make them operate at reduced effectivity until the difference in cost was paid.

That way, a 10-man guild would be building upgrades at the size 50 cost, a 130 man guild at size 200 cost, and 450-man guild at size 500 cost. If a size 50 guild decided to up its cap to size 100, it would need to pay also to update all their already posessed upgrades to new size. If not paid, those upgrades would not work/work at reduced usability (and you could update them selectively).

In the specific example you mentioned, cost would be, for size 50/100/200/300/400/500, accordingly:

25/50/100/150/200/250 Elder Wood Plank
25/50/100/150/200/250 Mithril Ingot
5/10/20/30/40/50 Bottle of Elonian Wine
1/2/4/6/8/10 Empty Keg
5/10/20/30/4050 Glass Mug
2/4/8/12/16/20 Obsidian Shard
2/5/10/15/20/25 Bolt of Silk
10/20/40/60/80/100 Cured Thick Leather Square
1/2/4/6/8/10 Bolt of Gossamer
1/2/4/6/8/10 Cured Hardened Leather Square
and 100 Favor (i don’t believe there’s a need to scale favor and aetherium costs)

If you insist on big guilds having some advantage here (though they have advantage from their numbers already, so not sure why would they need some other) aetherium mine output could be lowered slightly for lower size tiers, as long as the difference won’t be massive (small guild taking 3-5 times longer to upgrade than size 500 ones seems reasonable).

Matisse.9356:

To wrap it up: Taxi Wars 2 became the hostile cesspool other mmo games have so nicely proven to be successful. Good job Anet.

The only thing I really am wondering about is, if the decision about the change of the game’s direction was made be the development team or by the management.

I sincerely hope it was the latter, because I don’t want to know that the developers and the creative team killed the game for me.

They changed studio design directors right before HoT spun up.

That sort of thing has ENORMOUS impact on the direction of a Dev team and the game.

Bloodstealer.5978:

I will use the house buyer analogy again, cos you obviously failed to read through the thread.
A young couple looking for their first home have a choice of buying premade small 2bed, 3bed, 4bed or mansion or castle – logic suggests they start small and upscale as their family size and function requirements.
Lets not even consider the build time if we were to take that into a house builder analogy.. time, cost and effort should be made fair across the game but like so many other poorly thought through features ANET simply couldn’t be bothered because the gold sink and gem sales were higher priority.. personally I hope this crap come back to bite them in the backside, cos to me its a pretty desperate and short-sighted approach.

However, your house analogy has missed out one important point. Having a bigger house doesn’t necessary mean more rooms, but certainly will have more space. A small house which used to not able to put a pool table, after upgrading to a bigger house, they are then able to put a pool table due to increased space.

Your idea of scaling doesn’t regard functionalities but rather number of bed rooms. Your idea of scaling isn’t a normal house but a dormitory with a common large enough lobby that house same amount of entertainments as any other dormitory of any sizes. What does your common sense tells you about those different dormitories?

Same thing apply to Astralporing.1957’s idea of scaling.

Scaling is never fair when come to something as selective as this. Open-world scaling is fair because it doesn’t discriminate and select any specific people, every single person in open-world is subjected to scaling in every forms.

Astralporing.1957:

If a size 50 guild decided to up its cap to size 100, it would need to pay also to update all their already posessed upgrades to new size. If not paid, those upgrades would not work/work at reduced usability (and you could update them selectively).

A lot of “issues” with your idea. I will start with the easiest one first, or at least I hope it’s the easiest. According to your idea if I am in a guild at tier 1 (50 people) and then we get to tier 2 (100 people) then we will lose ALL our updates until we pay the costs for a guild of tier 2, although at the time we will have just 50 members tops but we will pay the price of 100? Doesn’t that sound completely unreasonable to you?

Unless you somehow think that if a guild of 50 people goes to the next tier of 100 member cap it will fill those 50 slots in the next day or two. You want to add a lot of extra burden for a guild OF ANY size that needs to update their capacity. Makes updating that guild tier a chore and a huge drawback instead of a benefit. What that would do is somewhat limit guilds from raising their capacity and keep guilds smaller. If your goal is to eliminate guilds from having more than 100 members there are better ways.

Or you somehow believe that raw new recruits of a guild will start contributing to the guild hall from day one? And that they will agree to pay retroactively for all the old updates too? I can already imagine the new guild invites! “Guild looking for people, just reached tier 3 today, deposit 100g to activate our guild upgrades when you join!”

I already see ways to abuse your system. Get your guild to tier 2, invite enough people, coerce them to pay up to activate updates, then kick them! Unlike the current system when nobody is “forced” to pay anything, with your system guilds will make sure to force their players to pay in order to activate their hard earned updates.

Imagine all the drama, all the abuse, all the elitisism, all the things players say they don’t like! Everything coming to a guild near you with this wonderful idea!

I thought the general consensus is that Anet removing access to hard earned guild updates was a horrible idea, and now you want to make it even worse. Congratulations.

Matisse.9356:

To wrap it up: Taxi Wars 2 became the hostile cesspool other mmo games have so nicely proven to be successful. Good job Anet.

The only thing I really am wondering about is, if the decision about the change of the game’s direction was made be the development team or by the management.

I sincerely hope it was the latter, because I don’t want to know that the developers and the creative team killed the game for me.

Management wanted more cash, they told the devs “Pay for my Porshe and be quick about it. We don’t care about fun or our manifesto”.

Well, other option is simply that there would be no cost to increase the guild cap. Instead, to incrrease the guild size you’d need to pay the difference cost upfront.

Mind you, i still think that basing the cost of upgrades on mostly material resources is a recipe for disaster – as the current situation clearly shows. I just doubt that Anet would be willing to completely change it at this point to something better.

Astralporing.1957:

Well, other option is simply that there would be no cost to increase the guild cap. Instead, to incrrease the guild size you’d need to pay the difference cost upfront.

Mind you, i still think that basing the cost of upgrades on mostly material resources is a recipe for disaster – as the current situation clearly shows. I just doubt that Anet would be willing to completely change it at this point to something better.

As for the scaling idea paying upfront would mean the couple of people who will start the guild will end up paying more than 1/3 or even 50% the cost of upgrading the guild to the final tier. Completely unfair to them and a huge incentive not to increase the guild size for no reason.

Which will lead to all kinds of different problems, including guilds not actually increasing in size due to the costs, requiring new members to “pay up” to cover the expenses and a lot of other things.

As for the other part yes I agree. Some materials do make some sense, like the PVP potions needed to upgrade the arena, but most of them aren’t good. Making upgrades require so many materials wasn’t a good idea at all.

What they could do until they get a more complete solution is to put all pre-HoT updates lower in the guild leveling process so guilds can get what they used to have a lot sooner. That would go a long way in helping I think

I think that a larger number of smaller upgrades, with much smaller price tags, would have been the way to go.

A small guild might be able to pick and choose the few options that they could readily afford from the list while larger guilds could afford more, or perhaps even all, options.

Having the guild hall start out smaller, with size upgrades among the listed options, combined with a large number of cosmetic or QoL upgrades could give a large guild plenty to buy while allowing a small guild to have their tiny hall with that one upgrade that is really important to them.

Modular. Pick and choose. Ala Carte.

Ashen.2907:

Modular. Pick and choose. Ala Carte.

Alas, that would open the content to far too many players rather than fragmenting and alienating what remains of the Guild Wars 2 community.

Ashen.2907:

I think that a larger number of smaller upgrades, with much smaller price tags, would have been the way to go."

I like this because I’ve been wondering…
Can someone tell me if the two things below are possible? If not, please enlighten on why not. I’m just a casual player with little interest in guild halls, but I do wonder about the future of the game. Thanks.
1) The new HoT guild system seems to encourages players to join big guilds for the benefits.
2) Gold farmers may build large guilds, and attract real players to unwittingly help them. Like, these large farmer guilds will help real players to run through HOT content and achievement, but meanwhile help themselves too in their business.

I am just wondering if this is something ANet needs to watch out against, in case the game atmosphere gets impacted down the road.

Or maybe ANet’s intention is to make HoT an attractive expansion for the farmer guilds to stay in this game. The farmers are going to pay a “tax” in gold sink in making guild hall progression, but will in turn be allowed to use real players if necessary by recruiting real players into their guilds? Just wondering, because I had seen this happen in Everquest to a degree, mostly in the form of raid gear being awarded by farmer guilds to real players who join their guild, but the real players must return their raid gear upon leaving the farmer guild… things like that.

In the end, both farmers and real players are buying expansions and spending $ in game. The few EQ farmers I knew certainly did that. They bought cosmetic items for fun too.

Perhaps ANet is starting to view farmers as a more stable player base than ordinary players like me who tend to leave easily. Just wondering.

Thanks for any enlightenment! Meanwhile, I do feel Ashen’s suggestion above is good for the game because it gives smaller guilds a chance to survive, and maybe in the long run it will be a good thing for the game.

GangNamTwo.9780:

1) The new HoT guild system seems to encourages players to join big guilds for the benefits.

I do feel like the scribing and guild hall upgrading systems are intended to “encourage” the joining of large guilds and the abandonment of small guilds, yeah.

Celtic Lady.3729:

GangNamTwo.9780:

1) The new HoT guild system seems to encourages players to join big guilds for the benefits.

I do feel like the scribing and guild hall upgrading systems are intended to “encourage” the joining of large guilds and the abandonment of small guilds, yeah.

So this was why Destiny’s Edge failed so much. Only five-ish strong and it’s all about the guild hall. Who knew?

Ashen.2907:

I think that a larger number of smaller upgrades, with much smaller price tags, would have been the way to go.

A small guild might be able to pick and choose the few options that they could readily afford from the list while larger guilds could afford more, or perhaps even all, options.

Having the guild hall start out smaller, with size upgrades among the listed options, combined with a large number of cosmetic or QoL upgrades could give a large guild plenty to buy while allowing a small guild to have their tiny hall with that one upgrade that is really important to them.

Modular. Pick and choose. Ala Carte.

However, small guilds’ complains have two main points, cost and full upgrade. They want full upgrade at reduced cost. Right now, the guild hall already has certain upgrades people can choose from with really high cost. So, what they suggest is to scale the cost while having cost to upgrade for each guild cap. That leave a lot of rooms to exploit for people who are looking to exploit and a lots of headache for new aspiring guilds which are trying to grow beyond.

Naturally, they don’t care if it will cause headaches to the new aspiring guilds. They don’t care if large guilds that filled with casuals (literally casuals who doesn’t play much) or large guilds with lots of inactive. They just want the cost to be reduced without accounting any possible scenarios.

Of course, many of the complainers also do not want the cost to be reduced for every guilds since they believe they should pay less because they have less people. Then, when you think about pre-HOT influence system which is universal to all, they didn’t complain about spending more efforts than the larger guilds, double standard if you ask me. In the end, it is really all about the wallets, the golds and mats.

Kraggy.4169:

kuritsutian.2987:

So before HoT you had no guild hall and you were happy…… now you have a chance of having a guild hall, but can’t get it …. so having no guild hall now makes you unhappy?
why do you suddenly feel the need for a GH if you don’t like people… just find a cool area to meet and call it a hideout!

Before HOT a guild earned the ability to get banners etc. which was taken away by HOT and locked behind the guild hall’s front door in the form of SCRIBING.

Small guilds lost everything they had because HOT makes it nigh on impossible for them to re-earn what they already HAD!

Except for that you get to keep all of the banners you made before HoT and is able to craft new ones of the types you had unlocked pre-HoT at the Initiative HQ…

Shuai.7435:

Kraggy.4169:

kuritsutian.2987:

So before HoT you had no guild hall and you were happy…… now you have a chance of having a guild hall, but can’t get it …. so having no guild hall now makes you unhappy?
why do you suddenly feel the need for a GH if you don’t like people… just find a cool area to meet and call it a hideout!

Before HOT a guild earned the ability to get banners etc. which was taken away by HOT and locked behind the guild hall’s front door in the form of SCRIBING.

Small guilds lost everything they had because HOT makes it nigh on impossible for them to re-earn what they already HAD!

Except for that you get to keep all of the banners you made before HoT and is able to craft new ones of the types you had unlocked pre-HoT at the Initiative HQ…

Verified? I haven’t heard of this (and I’m not on right now to try it, even if my little guild can afford it). We can no longer earn influence to buy upgrades by teaming up with guildies, though, right?

Majic.4801:

Alas, that would open the content to far too many players rather than fragmenting and alienating what remains of the Guild Wars 2 community.

/thumbsup
Priorities!

Shuai.7435:

Except for that you get to keep all of the banners you made before HoT and is able to craft new ones of the types you had unlocked pre-HoT at the Initiative HQ…

No you don’t get to just make more of what you could already make… Not without leveling a scribe! Unless my guild initiative HQ people are slackers.

I’m not sure why people keep saying this… My Guild Initiative HQ offers nothing of interest. In fact, the guild initiative notary tells me exactly what I can do in the Initiative Headquarters: “You can access general services you’ve unlocked (bank, which I can access without going in there at all). You can also speak with the explorers about funding an expedition to claim a guild hall.” Whoopteedoo! Unless there’s a secret passageway to banner-making without having a scribe, people who keep saying “you DO have access to everything you had access to before!” are full of it.

They straight up stole our effort in favor of forcing us to give them more effort, time, and/or cold-hard cash.

Well, hate to be that guy but I think small guilds should have it hard… big guilds should grow fast and be powerful, small ones shouldn’t .. and should be hard to unlock high tier options… that’s what a real world guild system would look like.

kuritsutian.2987:

Well, hate to be that guy but I think small guilds should have it hard… big guilds should grow fast and be powerful, small ones shouldn’t .. and should be hard to unlock high tier options… that’s what a real world guild system would look like.

Lol… how clueless can you get.

Of course that’s not how it works in the real world

You buy a small house for a small family.. its less materials to build, less time to build, less cost to buy.. then you expand it as your family grows or you move up to the next tier… unless of course your one of the <1% that just straight up go buy a castle for your first property with all upgrades and then hope to fill it asap by advertising for 500 lodgers…. at least try to engage brain before talking rubbish.

Bloodstealer.5978:

kuritsutian.2987:

Well, hate to be that guy but I think small guilds should have it hard… big guilds should grow fast and be powerful, small ones shouldn’t .. and should be hard to unlock high tier options… that’s what a real world guild system would look like.

Lol… how clueless can you get.

Of course that’s not how it works in the real world

You buy a small house for a small family.. its less materials to build, less time to build, less cost to buy.. then you expand it as your family grows or you move up to the next tier… unless of course your one of the <1% that just straight up go buy a castle for your first property with all upgrades and then hope to fill it asap by advertising for 500 lodgers…. at least try to engage brain before talking rubbish.

No matter how big my house is… if I want to buy a pool, it costs the same!

Shuai.7435:

Kraggy.4169:

kuritsutian.2987:

So before HoT you had no guild hall and you were happy…… now you have a chance of having a guild hall, but can’t get it …. so having no guild hall now makes you unhappy?
why do you suddenly feel the need for a GH if you don’t like people… just find a cool area to meet and call it a hideout!

Before HOT a guild earned the ability to get banners etc. which was taken away by HOT and locked behind the guild hall’s front door in the form of SCRIBING.

Small guilds lost everything they had because HOT makes it nigh on impossible for them to re-earn what they already HAD!

Except for that you get to keep all of the banners you made before HoT and is able to craft new ones of the types you had unlocked pre-HoT at the Initiative HQ…

And those consumables are paid for with a currency that requires a minimum amount of players to generate.

kuritsutian.2987:

Well, hate to be that guy but I think small guilds should have it hard… big guilds should grow fast and be powerful, small ones shouldn’t .. and should be hard to unlock high tier options… that’s what a real world guild system would look like.

Dear me…

Well, my guild had over 300 people in Warhammer. We tended to lead the war efforts of our server, so you might say we were powerful. Our guild name has, if it comes down to it, a bit of a reputation in quite a few MMOs. But do you know what made us powerful? The 15 or so people who actually took the trouble to learn their skills to the max, who fought, led the zerg and gathered the costs for upgrading keeps (Warhammer Online was a WvW game, with PVE as an afterthought).

Fact of the matter is, we only recruited our zerglings because the game was not doing so well, and we (rightly) thought inviting new people would give them a place to go for help and to get questions answered. Which in turn might mean more people staying to play.

In my experience, by far most huge guilds will have a core of REAL members and a lot of hangers-on who tend to sit around and demand you organize things for them to do in stead of taking the initiative. And in many cases the core members only recruit as many as they can get so they can brag about their numbers.

So you’ll have to allow me my cynicism about the whole ‘big guilds deserve the power’ thing. In my 12+ years of playing MMOs and leading a guild, I’ve only rarely found the huge guilds amounting to more than the smaller. Some of the most lethal PVP guilds I’ve known (open world and matches) had only 6 members. And yes, they tended to do quite well in PVE too.

Bloodstealer.5978:

Devata.6589:

Bloodstealer.5978:

Devata.6589:

Astralporing.1957:

Devata.6589:

So a big guild has to pay more for exactly the same just because they are bigger. That’s seems extremely unfair.

Why? It would supply the same options as a smaller guild, that’s true, but it would supply them to a larger number of players. To me it seems normal that it would cost more.
If you cook a dinner for 50 people, it requires greater quantities of ingredients than one made for 5 people – even if the dinner in question is exactly the same. The current HoT guild hall system seems to think however, that a dinner for anything less than 500 people just won’t do for any of those groups. Which, when you think about it, is ridiculous.

You are right there, cooking dinner to 50 people cost more than to 5 and you might even need a lager table. However you can prepare it in the same kitchen. But the dinner part is already in place.

For example, you can now unlock a mini vendor (that would be the kitchen in the example). That however does not give out free mini’s (mini’s would be the food) to everybody, it only gives the ability to get them (and this is true for most guild-hall unlocks). Members still have to buy those mini’s and so 50 members all buying the mini’s do in fact spend more than 5.

Of course you could focus on the size of the table, and it might have been ideal if there was also a smaller hall available where everything would be smaller (but that would also mean the vendor would have less mini’s available.. not sure if you would want that) and also cost less. But that would mean much more development-time and people would likely be complaining that their mini vendor had less mini’s available as that of big guilds.

No, what you need to focus on is that 5 person dinner still has to prepare enough food and a table big enough to suit 500 people, but still only have 5 people prepare it and eat it.

But you don’t. Lets make the Warroom the kitchen of the company that makes the food for it’s employee’s.

You don’t have to upgrade the Warroom completely, you can also go for only completing the first tier. Then you have less food, ens less variation in food that you can buy at the restaurant. (Just as you see that with smaller vs bigger companies).

You then also have to pay less to get this smaller version of the Warroom / prepare less food.

how to completely miss the point.. good job.

The simple fact is.. there is no choice in what you can make… no matter what tier you are upgrading, you are upgrading it based on the same oversize…. If ANET had put a n ounce of thought into this process instead of thinking “money sink” then they would of created choices but they didn’t they preferred the one size fits all and screw those that don’t want to become a number in a faceless guild.
The fact you might only be able to go to Warroom 1 and not all the way is irrelevant because to make WR1 you still have the same amount of players trying to build something that requires a ridiculous amount of extra time and effort per player and a heck of a lot more individual cost when compared to a much larger guild.

And please don’t go down the route that poster a few lines back came up with about how it’s so hard for a large guild because it has fewer contributors.. cos that rubbish only tends to highlight.. “recruit anyone and everyone”, poor guild organisation and above all very bad guild leadership.
As for SkyShroud now resorting to “its not fair to scale”… seriously its the fairest way any MMO provides content and features to all… the same way a 100 man zerg should have an event scaled up in order to succeed but scaled down when 10players take on the same thing.. doesn’t mean its easier for any of the groups.. its about striking a balance between time, effort and costs and as it stands, there is no such balance its completely off the scale.

The point was clear, maybe you missed my point?

A smaller guild does have choice (once they solve the guild-level requirement).

“The fact you might only be able to go to Warroom 1 and not all the way is irrelevant because to make WR1 you still have the same amount of players trying to build something that requires a ridiculous amount of extra time and effort per player and a heck of a lot more individual cost when compared to a much larger guild.”

no, because as smaller guild you only go for Warroom 1 (the choice you have), while as bigger guild you go for maxing the Warroom out. So then there is a difference in ‘size’ and the bigger size requires more materials then the smaller size.

You would be right if you go for the same thing yes.. If the bigger guild go’s for only warroom 1 then it would be easier for them.. What is perfectly fine. But that is the difference between a bigger and a smaller guild. A bigger can go for all upgrades while a smaller one go’s for less.

“its not fair to scale” no it’s not.. but now I do get your point. You say you want choice, but you don’t.. You just want everything and so it needs to scale so you can take everything. You want to spend less than a big guild to get exactly the same. What would be extremely unfair. BTW, having members that are not extremely active has nothing to do with bad recruiting, but about not being purely hardcore.

kuritsutian.2987:

No matter how big my house is… if I want to buy a pool, it costs the same!

A pool for a small family will cost less than a pool for 500 people. Size does matter.

Broom.2561:

kuritsutian.2987:

Well, hate to be that guy but I think small guilds should have it hard… big guilds should grow fast and be powerful, small ones shouldn’t .. and should be hard to unlock high tier options… that’s what a real world guild system would look like.

Dear me…

Well, my guild had over 300 people in Warhammer. We tended to lead the war efforts of our server, so you might say we were powerful. Our guild name has, if it comes down to it, a bit of a reputation in quite a few MMOs. But do you know what made us powerful? The 15 or so people who actually took the trouble to learn their skills to the max, who fought, led the zerg and gathered the costs for upgrading keeps (Warhammer Online was a WvW game, with PVE as an afterthought).

Fact of the matter is, we only recruited our zerglings because the game was not doing so well, and we (rightly) thought inviting new people would give them a place to go for help and to get questions answered. Which in turn might mean more people staying to play.

In my experience, by far most huge guilds will have a core of REAL members and a lot of hangers-on who tend to sit around and demand you organize things for them to do in stead of taking the initiative. And in many cases the core members only recruit as many as they can get so they can brag about their numbers.

So you’ll have to allow me my cynicism about the whole ‘big guilds deserve the power’ thing. In my 12+ years of playing MMOs and leading a guild, I’ve only rarely found the huge guilds amounting to more than the smaller. Some of the most lethal PVP guilds I’ve known (open world and matches) had only 6 members. And yes, they tended to do quite well in PVE too.

I don’t think the Guild System we have now exists in other MMO’s nor previously on this.

Astralporing.1957:

kuritsutian.2987:

No matter how big my house is… if I want to buy a pool, it costs the same!

A pool for a small family will cost less than a pool for 500 people. Size does matter.

So you would settle with 5% boost instead of 10% boost in say x …. so you would settle with x skin instead of y ….. I think that’s how it works now

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Dejavu.2349:

Not sure why clarification was needed, but there ya go.

Then what’s the solution? It’s good to identify a problem before moving to fix it, however I haven’t seen yet a valid solution to the current problem. I even asked how other games did it, because according to some posters “other games have been doing it for 10 years”, yet I haven’t seen a solid answer yet.

The obvious solution, which Anet did not use unfortunately, would have been to lean more on timegated resources like aetherium and favour, as well as event/activity based unlocks, and less on material sinks.

The next solution in line would be to base the cost on the guild size (not the number of current members, but on unlocked guild cap), where upping the guild cap after building guild upgrades would make them operate at reduced effectivity until the difference in cost was paid.

That way, a 10-man guild would be building upgrades at the size 50 cost, a 130 man guild at size 200 cost, and 450-man guild at size 500 cost. If a size 50 guild decided to up its cap to size 100, it would need to pay also to update all their already posessed upgrades to new size. If not paid, those upgrades would not work/work at reduced usability (and you could update them selectively).

In the specific example you mentioned, cost would be, for size 50/100/200/300/400/500, accordingly:

25/50/100/150/200/250 Elder Wood Plank
25/50/100/150/200/250 Mithril Ingot
5/10/20/30/40/50 Bottle of Elonian Wine
1/2/4/6/8/10 Empty Keg
5/10/20/30/4050 Glass Mug
2/4/8/12/16/20 Obsidian Shard
2/5/10/15/20/25 Bolt of Silk
10/20/40/60/80/100 Cured Thick Leather Square
1/2/4/6/8/10 Bolt of Gossamer
1/2/4/6/8/10 Cured Hardened Leather Square
and 100 Favor (i don’t believe there’s a need to scale favor and aetherium costs)

If you insist on big guilds having some advantage here (though they have advantage from their numbers already, so not sure why would they need some other) aetherium mine output could be lowered slightly for lower size tiers, as long as the difference won’t be massive (small guild taking 3-5 times longer to upgrade than size 500 ones seems reasonable).

So wait, you want a smaller guild to get exactly the same for less.

Like if you buy a TV by yourself, but I split the cost with 4 friends and then some guy comes up (probably some communist dictator. Not sure what other guy would come up with something like that) and tells us to pay 4 times the cost for the same TV so the cost per person stays the same (Because that is ‘fair’). Of course we then still have to split the TV with the 4 of us while you have it for you alone.

[Sarcasm] Yeah that seems fair! [/sarcasm]

Shuai.7435:

Kraggy.4169:

kuritsutian.2987:

So before HoT you had no guild hall and you were happy…… now you have a chance of having a guild hall, but can’t get it …. so having no guild hall now makes you unhappy?
why do you suddenly feel the need for a GH if you don’t like people… just find a cool area to meet and call it a hideout!

Before HOT a guild earned the ability to get banners etc. which was taken away by HOT and locked behind the guild hall’s front door in the form of SCRIBING.

Small guilds lost everything they had because HOT makes it nigh on impossible for them to re-earn what they already HAD!

Except for that you get to keep all of the banners you made before HoT and is able to craft new ones of the types you had unlocked pre-HoT at the Initiative HQ…

No. You. Can’t.

Astralporing.1957:

kuritsutian.2987:

No matter how big my house is… if I want to buy a pool, it costs the same!

A pool for a small family will cost less than a pool for 500 people. Size does matter.

You missed his point totally. Quite a number of people already explained it a lot of times, too many times but some people simply refuse to see it because it doesn’t benefit them one single bit.

The main point is this. Small guilds want EVERYTHING at REDUCED cost (Not all small guilds but most small guilds that complained) while other bigger guilds are to pay the original cost. All those analogy are trying to point out that a house of the same size do not cost anything less for anyone regardless how big their family is. However, some advocates are trying so hard to twist the analogy that a family can build and slowly upgrade the house but they never tell you that eventually it will still cost the same to build a house of the same size because they wants you think that it will cost lesser to build a house of the same size #advocatelogic. Too many half-truth, just like politician.

Astralporing.1957:

kuritsutian.2987:

No matter how big my house is… if I want to buy a pool, it costs the same!

A pool for a small family will cost less than a pool for 500 people. Size does matter.

That system is in place in the GW2 Guild-Halls. You can go for the mini vendor 1, 2 and 3. Small, bigger, biggest.

You can go for a fully upgraded Warroom or only go for T1.

You can take decorator vendor 1, 2 and 3 (small, bigger biggest).

You can go for only a harvest boost, or also a XP boost, or also… Well you get the point.

Devata.6589:

Astralporing.1957:

kuritsutian.2987:

No matter how big my house is… if I want to buy a pool, it costs the same!

A pool for a small family will cost less than a pool for 500 people. Size does matter.

That system is in place in the GW2 Guild-Halls. You can go for the mini vendor 1, 2 and 3. Small, bigger, biggest.

You can go for a fully upgraded Warroom or only go for T1.

You can take decorator vendor 1, 2 and 3 (small, bigger biggest).

You can go for only a harvest boost, or also a XP boost, or also… Well you get the point.

Yup, exactly! which I think its fine… a small feud irl will logically have problems to get Big stuff… unless, how it is in real life they put extra effort into it!

Astralporing.1957:

kuritsutian.2987:

No matter how big my house is… if I want to buy a pool, it costs the same!

A pool for a small family will cost less than a pool for 500 people. Size does matter.

What do you mean? Are you advocating for making large guilds pay more? I can’t get behind that concept any more than I can making it impossible for small guilds to progress at all. Both are unfair.

kuritsutian.2987:

Bloodstealer.5978:

kuritsutian.2987:

Well, hate to be that guy but I think small guilds should have it hard… big guilds should grow fast and be powerful, small ones shouldn’t .. and should be hard to unlock high tier options… that’s what a real world guild system would look like.

Lol… how clueless can you get.

Of course that’s not how it works in the real world

You buy a small house for a small family.. its less materials to build, less time to build, less cost to buy.. then you expand it as your family grows or you move up to the next tier… unless of course your one of the <1% that just straight up go buy a castle for your first property with all upgrades and then hope to fill it asap by advertising for 500 lodgers…. at least try to engage brain before talking rubbish.

No matter how big my house is… if I want to buy a pool, it costs the same!

Lols this poster what are you smoking are you for real or just trying to troll for effect…
Either way I would give up before you make yourself look even more idiotic.. …sorry but sometimes being cruel to be kind can help you overcome your failings!

Bloodstealer.5978:

kuritsutian.2987:

Bloodstealer.5978:

kuritsutian.2987:

Well, hate to be that guy but I think small guilds should have it hard… big guilds should grow fast and be powerful, small ones shouldn’t .. and should be hard to unlock high tier options… that’s what a real world guild system would look like.

Lol… how clueless can you get.

Of course that’s not how it works in the real world

You buy a small house for a small family.. its less materials to build, less time to build, less cost to buy.. then you expand it as your family grows or you move up to the next tier… unless of course your one of the <1% that just straight up go buy a castle for your first property with all upgrades and then hope to fill it asap by advertising for 500 lodgers…. at least try to engage brain before talking rubbish.

No matter how big my house is… if I want to buy a pool, it costs the same!

Lols this poster what are you smoking are you for real or just trying to troll for effect…
Either way I would give up before you make yourself look even more idiotic.. …sorry but sometimes being cruel to be kind can help you overcome your failings!

I don’t see the constructiveness of your comment, most people could understand what I was talking about, you seem to be the only one with a problem

GreyWolf.8670:

Astralporing.1957:

kuritsutian.2987:

No matter how big my house is… if I want to buy a pool, it costs the same!

A pool for a small family will cost less than a pool for 500 people. Size does matter.

What do you mean? Are you advocating for making large guilds pay more? I can’t get behind that concept any more than I can making it impossible for small guilds to progress at all. Both are unfair.

No.. I think he has it spot on… if you want a large pool to suit 500 players then that has the same weighted cost as it would cost for a pool to accommodate 50 people.

As there are 10 times the number of people supplying the materials and ten times the number of players putting towards the cost then absolutely the overall should be that a large guild should have to put in the same time, cost and effort as a small guild does per player.

ANET couldn’t be bothered in providing tiers to the guild hall size it was a one size fits all no matter what.
So why should a faceless 500 be able to claim, upgrade and decorate the largest hall so absurdly quicker than a small guild of 10.. small guilds di not ask for such a large hall and neither did they ask for all their previous efforts to now be negated and re-gated behind paywalls, something that is nothing more than a mere twitch to replace for much larger guilds, but could easily take a small guild months or worse to get back to where they were.
The guild Hall function absolutely should be tied to the sizing of your guild and the costs/effort weighted accordingly… what we have been handed is nothing short of a money sink that punishes a large portion of the player base whilst those in a faceless 500 can sit back after 15minutes farming their 2-5 carrots each and few potatoes.. while the rest take weeks to get them.

No one here is saying that anyone should have it easy .. but at the same time, many of us are saying it needs to be a lot fairer and more inclusive as a whole community otherwise many are going to just not bother and leave.. look at WvW a wasteland now not a borderland and the new maps are already absent of players the majority of the time.

No sorry all this just smells of desperation to coin in as fast as they can for as long as they can because imo they are unable to create decent content that keeps players wanting to log back in to play except to grind and zerg – guild halls was just the perfect recipe in which to fastrack that hope to coin in, but I am hoping it fails hard because ANET don’t deserve a loyal community after all this crap.

kuritsutian.2987:

Bloodstealer.5978:

kuritsutian.2987:

Bloodstealer.5978:

kuritsutian.2987:

Well, hate to be that guy but I think small guilds should have it hard… big guilds should grow fast and be powerful, small ones shouldn’t .. and should be hard to unlock high tier options… that’s what a real world guild system would look like.

Lol… how clueless can you get.

Of course that’s not how it works in the real world

You buy a small house for a small family.. its less materials to build, less time to build, less cost to buy.. then you expand it as your family grows or you move up to the next tier… unless of course your one of the <1% that just straight up go buy a castle for your first property with all upgrades and then hope to fill it asap by advertising for 500 lodgers…. at least try to engage brain before talking rubbish.

No matter how big my house is… if I want to buy a pool, it costs the same!

Lols this poster what are you smoking are you for real or just trying to troll for effect…
Either way I would give up before you make yourself look even more idiotic.. …sorry but sometimes being cruel to be kind can help you overcome your failings!

I don’t see the constructiveness of your comment, most people could understand what I was talking about, you seem to be the only one with a problem

Really.. you must be reading a different thread to me cos what you said made no sense… your pool analogy is a complete non starter because you don’t understand what is required in order to get your pool… size does matter, remember that!

Enuff said!

Bloodstealer.5978:

… size does matter, remember that!

Enuff said!

Exactly! you are starting to get it!

Big guild > Small guild

kuritsutian.2987:

Astralporing.1957:

kuritsutian.2987:

No matter how big my house is… if I want to buy a pool, it costs the same!

A pool for a small family will cost less than a pool for 500 people. Size does matter.

So you would settle with 5% boost instead of 10% boost in say x …. so you would settle with x skin instead of y ….. I think that’s how it works now

Errr… if you think that a pool for 5 will only get you 1% wet compared to a pool for 500, i don’t know what else i can say…

kuritsutian.2987:

Bloodstealer.5978:

… size does matter, remember that!

Enuff said!

Exactly! you are starting to get it!

Big guild > Small guild

Yes, the numbers offer an advantage on its own. No more advantages are needed. Enforcing artificial ones just because devs can’t wrap their minds about the fact that small guilds exist too is a bad design.

Astralporing.1957:

Yes, the numbers offer an advantage on its own. No more advantages are needed. Enforcing artificial ones just because devs can’t wrap their minds about the fact that small guilds exist too is a bad design.

My original point was “That’s how a real life Guild system would look like” don’t think it’s artificial, of course small guilds exists and they are not bad… you just can’t have a big pool for the price of a small one just because you are small. Not saying life is fair or not, just stating the point.

kuritsutian.2987:

Astralporing.1957:

Yes, the numbers offer an advantage on its own. No more advantages are needed. Enforcing artificial ones just because devs can’t wrap their minds about the fact that small guilds exist too is a bad design.

My original point was “That’s how a real life Guild system would look like” don’t think it’s artificial, of course small guilds exists and they are not bad… you just can’t have a big pool for the price of a small one just because you are small. Not saying life is fair or not, just stating the point.

Except we don’t want a big pool. We want a small, but fully functional one – not one that is only 1% wet, as you seem to suggest we should get.
Moreover, we want that pool back, because we have already worked ourselves to the bone to get it, and it was taken away from us for no reason at all.

Astralporing.1957:

kuritsutian.2987:

Astralporing.1957:

Yes, the numbers offer an advantage on its own. No more advantages are needed. Enforcing artificial ones just because devs can’t wrap their minds about the fact that small guilds exist too is a bad design.

My original point was “That’s how a real life Guild system would look like” don’t think it’s artificial, of course small guilds exists and they are not bad… you just can’t have a big pool for the price of a small one just because you are small. Not saying life is fair or not, just stating the point.

Except we don’t want a big pool. We want a small, but fully functional one – not one that is only 1% wet, as you seem to suggest we should get.
Moreover, we want that pool back, because we have already worked ourselves to the bone to get it, and it was taken away from us for no reason at all.

I am not suggesting anything, I am saying why things are how they are! there’s no pool in the world that gets you x% wet… there’s just bigger (= more functional ) pools than others … you still get wet, you just don’t get to swim across as you would like to… With the whole pool analogy I am starting to want a pool in the Guild Hall :P

As of the previously acquired benefits… that’s a different subject and it’s how this Guild system was implemented! I agree with you here as I stated in the first pages of the thread (yeah I have read the whole thing even when people keep saying the same stuff over and over)… What you had shouldn’t be touched… they can say they Gated it, still there’s a cost to be able to access it which is not fair even when it goes accordingly with the investment/reward

Astralporing.1957:

Moreover, we want that pool back, because we have already worked ourselves to the bone to get it, and it was taken away from us for no reason at all.

And this is something that they should rework and do right. Give guilds back what they lost.

That pool example isn’t exactly accurate for a guild hall though… I’d rather people talk with actual in-game examples instead of making irrelevant references.

And I’m still waiting with a doable idea on how everything requested over the last pages could work without causing far more problems than it is supposed to solve.

Bloodstealer.5978:

ANET couldn’t be bothered in providing tiers to the guild hall size it was a one size fits all no matter what.
So why should a faceless 500 be able to claim, upgrade and decorate the largest hall so absurdly quicker than a small guild of 10..

How about providing some examples of how these tiers would work? There was one earlier in the thread if you want to look at it, if you are actually paying attention to the thread, and unfortunately it had lots of holes and caused more problems than it solved. So instead of saying “Anet couldn’t be bothered” as if it’s something easily done, why don’t you provide some info for a change? Something you’ve never done so far.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

Moreover, we want that pool back, because we have already worked ourselves to the bone to get it, and it was taken away from us for no reason at all.

And this is something that they should rework and do right. Give guilds back what they lost.

That pool example isn’t exactly accurate for a guild hall though… I’d rather people talk with actual in-game examples instead of making irrelevant references.

And I’m still waiting with a doable idea on how everything requested over the last pages could work without causing far more problems than it is supposed to solve.

This is the crux of the issue. ANET’s theft of all of our efforts and their attempt to force us to buy gold to do it all again.

It’s disgustingly cheesy design. I have lost all respect for the ANET devs since HoT. It is one of the most blatant cash grabs I have ever seen. Taking content away and forcing us to do it again is NOT NEW CONTENT. Forcing me me to pay for it is theft.