Guild Wars 2

Nick.9572:

Would it make me sound old if I started complaining about kids these days always expecting immediate gratification?

Maybe? But, I mean, I’m old, too.

I think making it easier to unlock elite specs is a good move. Ultimately, I think it’s good that players can more easily explore all of the HoT zones using their elite spec rather than exploring all of the HoT zones to get their elite spec. There are plenty of other long-term goals to work towards.

One of the disconnects between people who thought it was fine and people who didn’t was how they thought about elite specs. On the one side, people who thought it was fine thought of them as a reward—you work to unlock them to enjoy the new skills and traits. Those who thought it wasn’t fine thought of it as something their character was incomplete without, and after so long of having a “complete” character (and knowing that we wouldn’t have a new tier of gear or a level cap increase), it was jarring to suddenly have to put in some serious effort to “re-complete” your character.

I think 250 hero points is an okay compromise. It’s still quite a lot of hero points for someone who hasn’t already done central Tyria map completion, but it becomes something you’ll unlock halfway through HoT rather than most of the way through. (Assuming you don’t just run WvW trains for Proofs of Heroics anyway. )

thank you! all i want now s for the patch to drop so i can go go scrap the modrem with my scrapper! WOOT

Posted this on the feedback post, but might as well repeat here:

250 points is still a bit much if you consider alts, manageable for 1-2 characters, more than that and is still too daunting. If you don’t want to lower it to a decent cost (100-150 since there’s nothing elite about them), please increase the drops of the “proof of heroics” item in WvW.

250 is great!! Good luck everyone. Good job Anet

when this going live?

Lynce.9560:

Posted this on the feedback post, but might as well repeat here:

250 points is still a bit much if you consider alts, manageable for 1-2 characters, more than that and is still too daunting. If you don’t want to lower it to a decent cost (100-150 since there’s nothing elite about them), please increase the drops of the “proof of heroics” item in WvW.

Something tells me 100-150 still won’t be decent enough for you. They considered alts in the current reduction, anything lower would just result in people chewing through new content in a week and complaining about not having anything to do within 2 weeks after launch.

ZeroKaos.1682:

Lynce.9560:

Posted this on the feedback post, but might as well repeat here:

250 points is still a bit much if you consider alts, manageable for 1-2 characters, more than that and is still too daunting. If you don’t want to lower it to a decent cost (100-150 since there’s nothing elite about them), please increase the drops of the “proof of heroics” item in WvW.

Something tells me 100-150 still won’t be decent enough for you. They considered alts in the current reduction, anything lower would just result in people chewing through new content in a week and complaining about not having anything to do within 2 weeks after launch.

I don’t think they considered alts. 250 is an okay compromise, nothing amazing and when considering alts, it’s still a fairly big grind. Granted it’s not as big as 400 but still.

ZeroKaos.1682:

Lynce.9560:

Posted this on the feedback post, but might as well repeat here:

250 points is still a bit much if you consider alts, manageable for 1-2 characters, more than that and is still too daunting. If you don’t want to lower it to a decent cost (100-150 since there’s nothing elite about them), please increase the drops of the “proof of heroics” item in WvW.

Something tells me 100-150 still won’t be decent enough for you. They considered alts in the current reduction, anything lower would just result in people chewing through new content in a week and complaining about not having anything to do within 2 weeks after launch.

I do believe that would be players still annoyed if they made it 100-150, i’m not one of them. I have 8 chars, 1 with 96% world map, when i log in i decide what character i’ll play and what i’ll do, usually 5-7 hours a week. I do my best to not repeat stuff too much so i don’t get bored, so most of my characters are in different maps. Really not very interested in the new maps, but i’ll probably go for the story, however i am interested in the specialization wich is why i asked to reduce it a bit more or increase the drops of “proof of heroics”. Beeing stuck with grinding so i can do what i want is something GW2 never forced me too, so yes i’m upset with the changes they did in this expansion, this one being the biggest of them.

If no more changes i’ll choose 2-3 characters to get the specialization on because otherwise i’ll just get bored and leave the game. There is already enough timegating in the expansion, so Anet should have considered the specializations as a fun experience for players instead of another pointless timegate. I was actually expecting to unlock them in the story itself. But this is just my opinion.

Nick.9572:

Would it make me sound old if I started complaining about kids these days always expecting immediate gratification?

Old? No. Missing the point? Definitely.

Mature players can disagree about game systems without insulting one another, while immature players tend to struggle with the concept. Whatever your views on this particular issue may be, you are better served by focusing on them, and leaving your misconceptions about other players at the door.

Many, many players of all ages have expressed their opinions about Hero Points, Hero Challenges and Elite Specializations, and every player who has done so, whatever their views may be, is doing the right thing by sharing them with ArenaNet.

Unfortunately, some players seem to care less about the game itself than attacking others for having different opinions. Such insularity is toxic to an otherwise exceptional community and something we should all strive to eliminate.

This is something “old timers” tend to learn sooner or later.

Here’s hoping it’s “sooner” for as many of us as possible.

ANet, you guys are universally awesome. While I know you’re not going to please everyone with this change (see the above thread for evidence), the mere fact that you continue to listen to the community and were willing to make a change so quickly after the HoT launch is a credit to your flexibility and your understanding of the community you’ve created. Many kudos!

So I guess you are saying you are an immature player. Fair enough.
The point was never that you get your elite specialization immediately. It’s something you progress towards, and get new skills as you explore. This is a game. You are not supposed to automatically win. It is supposed to be a challenge.
But whatever. Everyone is used to participation trophies these days, so I guess everything should be made super easy so no one cries about having to do something hard to complete their character.

Majic.4801:

Nick.9572:

Would it make me sound old if I started complaining about kids these days always expecting immediate gratification?

Old? No. Missing the point? Definitely.

Mature players can disagree about game systems without insulting one another, while immature players tend to struggle with the concept. Whatever your views on this particular issue may be, you are better served by focusing on them, and leaving your misconceptions about other players at the door.

Many, many players of all ages have expressed their opinions about Hero Points, Hero Challenges and Elite Specializations, and every player who has done so, whatever their views may be, is doing the right thing by sharing them with ArenaNet.

Unfortunately, some players seem to care less about the game itself than attacking others for having different opinions. Such insularity is toxic to an otherwise exceptional community and something we should all strive to eliminate.

This is something “old timers” tend to learn sooner or later.

Here’s hoping it’s “sooner” for as many of us as possible.

This going live now?

Knighthonor.4061:

This going live now?

That’s what i hope the latest patch is!

Nick.9572:

It is supposed to be a challenge.

Which doesn’t seem to describe elite specs.

Nick.9572:

Everyone is used to participation trophies these days

That sounds exactly like what elite specs were. Trophies for participating in new content. Not for overcoming anything particularly challenging, just for putting in some time.

By reducing the gate for accessing them Anet has made them less of a trophy and more of a tool for earning other trophies. Perhaps, using a sport analogy, they are the uniform you wear while playing football, not the trophy you earn by winning the game.

Nick.9572:

So I guess you are saying you are an immature player. Fair enough.
The point was never that you get your elite specialization immediately. It’s something you progress towards, and get new skills as you explore. This is a game. You are not supposed to automatically win. It is supposed to be a challenge.
But whatever. Everyone is used to participation trophies these days, so I guess everything should be made super easy so no one cries about having to do something hard to complete their character.

My point is that, well, it kind of still is. 250 hero points is still quite a lot, and if you didn’t do core Tyria completion, you’re going to need to do quite a few hero point challenges in Heart of Thorns to get your elite specification. But to be fair, I also don’t think I’d call the process of getting them a “challenge” so much as—well, if you really want your elite spec, it feels tedious, because you’re either grinding WvW for Proofs of Heroism or rushing to do as many hero challenges as possible; if you don’t, it’s kind of just something you ignore and get whenever.

I think this change means that people can play Heart of Thorns using their elite spec, not to get their elite spec, and I think that’s okay as an old-timer myself.

It’s sort of a core disagreement between people who see elite specs as a reward for exploring most/all of Maguuma and people who see elite specs as a necessary part of their character without which their character is incomplete. Because we didn’t have a level cap increase and there’s no new gear tier, a lot of players weren’t prepared to have to really work to “re-complete” their character by unlocking their elite spec.

Nick.9572:

So I guess you are saying you are an immature player. Fair enough.

You are free to believe whatever you want.

To the extent your contribution is to insult other players rather than improving the game, it is detrimental to both the game and the people who play it, including you.

Thank you. <3
Now I can finally go roaming with tempest with a proper build

CuteLilKittenHugz.2064:

I really think you guys are so grateful for a change – any change – that you’re missing a few things that point to this not being much of a compromise.

1) Hero points are still account bound.
2) They are still gated behind some masteries.
3) You are still forced to spend Hero Points on ALL your skills and utilities before you can even unlock the elite spec.
4) The elite specs are all earned in a linear fashion – which means you MUST spend your hero points on traits AND SKILLS that you may never even use.

As it is, 250 HP is easier to swallow versus 400 HP, true…if you only have 1 or 2 alts to grind. But once you hit 4-5 alts and up… this is still a HUGE amount of grind.

Preserver.8457:

I very much agree with this. I feel like the number 250 was chosen as a trap, such that Anet can say they “compromised” and anyone who is still unhappy must be “unreasonable.” However, I have yet to hear anyone satisfactorily explain why providing an instant elite unlock (e.g. via a Story quest) would be detrimental to players. Concerns about “progression” are disingenuous because the mastery system is still there.

EXACTLY to every. single. sentence, Preserver. Not to mention…YOU CAN GRIND FOR LEGENDARY WEAPONS AND ARMOR NOW. Those are actual rewards people.

Runiir.6425:

No, what they are saying is they backed themselves into a wall and can’t toss the failed system out without admitting they royally screwed up. Game developers are rather notorious for never admitting they totally screwed up. Even the blog/release is more of downplaying the outcry rather than a real apology for hiding this from everyone till days before it went live.

I actually said this to Gaile after she responded to a PM from me to the support desk

I told her I love the game, but seriously aNet needs to stop waiting 2,000 posts and 40,000 views when there is CLEARLY a problem and ADMIT when they’ve made a mistake and promise to look into correcting it. Entire situation = diffused.

Instead they do exactly what you said above: just keep on pretending nothing is wrong and everyone is happy and not really fixing the problem because that would be admitting there’s a problem.

ZeroKaos.1682:

anything lower would just result in people chewing through new content in a week and complaining about not having anything to do within 2 weeks after launch

There is already very little content in the game.

What all the grind they have added with HoT – specializations, masteries, precursor crafting, etc etc – is trying to hide is that the expansion itself has very little content at all. Without the grind, people would have played through all of it in a couple days.

It’s all a matter of how easily fooled players are. Some see the smoke screen as what it is, others don’t understand the difference between “content” and “grind”.

I was thinking the best middle ground would be 300 with traits and skills that you can choose. Well, this is fine too. At least this is basically easy elite spec for my main.

I am a little upset over the change, though at the same time, most of the characters, I play have close to or over 200hp, so I guess it works out too, lol.

This is definitely an improvement, but it still doesn’t really seem like a solution. It’s made it so that I have enough of my elite spec to play with, but I still need to unlock so much of it that all the expansion content is more irritating than fun, because everything that isn’t a hero point just feels like a waste of time.

Colin:

… We’ve had a lot of really positive reactions to our new take on endgame progression with our Mastery system.
However, we’ve received some feedback on our elite specialization system, the rate at which elite specializations are unlocked, and how that ties in with the Mastery system. …

hmm.

But yes, right direction (at least).
If I want 10 apples I would demand 20 apples and finally got 15 apples.

CuteLilKittenHugz.2064:

Saga of Ilthire.6315:

CuteLilKittenHugz.2064:

I really think you guys are so grateful for a change – any change – that you’re missing a few things that point to this not being much of a compromise.

1) Hero points are still account bound.
2) They are still gated behind some masteries.
3) You are still forced to spend Hero Points on ALL your skills and utilities before you can even unlock the elite spec.
4) The elite specs are all earned in a linear fashion – which means you MUST spend your hero points on traits AND SKILLS that you may never even use.

As it is, 250 HP is easier to swallow versus 400 HP, true…if you only have 1 or 2 alts to grind. But once you hit 4-5 alts and up… this is still a HUGE amount of grind.

That’s not what grind means.

You get enough HP for all of your skills by hitting, except for your elite. You literally have to walk around and get your 25 hero points now instead of 40 (5 if you did map completion on your alts.) Back when GW2 was released, you received NO hero points for leveling up. Consider yourself lucky.

How long have you been playing, cuz what you just said is not true at all. I’ve Been playing for 3 years, you never did and still do not receive Hero Points for leveling up. You only received Skill Points for leveling above 80, and those were converted into Spirit Shards, not Hero Points.

So every single Hero Point I have across my 10 level 80 alts was earned by walking around, taking time to explore the map and completing a Hero/Skill Point challenge.

250HP means 25 hero challenges X number of alts (10) = 250 Hero Challenges. I have to do TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY. Think about it. Which, btw, I will have to earn the hard way for all of them, just like everyone else. Over and over. And time gated. And reliant on other players.

That is the definition of “Grind” my friend.

So I will reserve my thanks for when actual compromise is done.

Uh, yes you did, and yes you do. Before 2014, you got a skill point every single time you leveled even beyond 80. Now you get the hero points you need to completely unlock everything on your character by the time you hit 80, and all the hero points in the world are just extra gravy, or a way to get your skills and traits faster.

I’m not sure where you got the idea that you don’t get hero points or skill points for leveling and never did, but you have pretty much the entire game.

Don’t believe me? Check the Guild Wars wiki and search for hero points. It’s right there. Heck, I got them when I used the scrolls and Tome to auto 80 my revenant.

Excellent news. Now I don’t have to stress out about what to do when my Revenant hits level 80.

I was fine with 400. I’m fine with 250. Whatever it is I’ll get to when I get to.

Although I think 278 would have been perfect. People would be so confused about the unusual number that they’d forget to complain for a while.

I think they put too much emphasis, PR and marketing on new skill lines. Core Gw2 never had that feeling of “I have to buy this game, so I can play this or that class”. It was (and probably still is) about the fabulous world and plethora of things to do in it. With whatever class and/or skills you chose.
With HOT it feels a bit different. Anytime anyone mentioned HOT in the pre-launch phase, discussion focused mostly on new skill lines or raids and that made all the hype revolve about it.
Now, considering raids aren’t even a part of the game yet, it is perfectly understandable that players see HOT as a ticket to this new skill line they’ve been talking about so much.
As I understand, ANet has an economist consultant for, I am guessing, economy issues. Maybe they should also employ a psychologist, for helping them understand how human psyche works.

GW2 players: We want cake! This is not the cake you promissed! We want cake!!

Gaile Gray.6029:

After looking at everything we previously said, yes we said cake. We are sorry for the miscommunication so…
Here is your cake!

GW2 players: You gave us cake! Wait… We want CHOCOLATE cake!!

The deduction to 250 was perfect for me. 19 points left and I unlock my full spec for my Herald. I can now stop stressing out and actually play my profession

Tungsten Monarch.6058:

250 is good, most of my alts have +175 to 215 that have not entered HoT. Works great for us with one of each class at 80.

I only have 2 of my (now) 9 80s at world completion, so 7 have quite a ways to go.
But I’m okay with that! 250 is manageable, I can work with that.

I think Helequin.2608 made a very good point here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/HoT-Players-New-Info-for-you/page/2#post5671845

It is not the cost (400 or 250 Hero Points) that is the problem. The problem is that leveling your character to the elite specialization can only be done by doing one specific activity (in PvE, I know you can get Hero points in WvW). By just leveling your character to level 80 you can unlock all specializations. That is great. You can level in any way you want. But to get the elite specialization you need to do Hero Points.

I hope we will get a response from ArenaNet on this point. I can see the problem, I don’t know the solution.

To be clear: The change from 400 to 250 means that my main unlocked the Druid now. My other 4 characters are very close to their elite without having set a step in the new maps. The change to 250 wasn’t needed for me and I will probably do all the new Hero Points anyway. But having my elite not depending on that is nice.

What is the conversion ratio from Skill Points to Hero Points? My Warrior had well over 400, if not 500 Skill Points before HoT with World Completion as well, but I still don’t have enough Hero Points to unlock everything. Albeit I’m really close…

EDIT: Nevermind I just read on the wiki that:

Skill points earned through level rewards or skill challenges (now known as hero challenges) were discarded.

…and the majority of the skill points I earned were from leveling.

symke.3105:

I think they put too much emphasis, PR and marketing on new skill lines. Core Gw2 never had that feeling of “I have to buy this game, so I can play this or that class”. It was (and probably still is) about the fabulous world and plethora of things to do in it. With whatever class and/or skills you chose.

I’d say for a lot of us this is how we continue to feel.

The class is the vehicle by which we experience the world.

Experiencing the world is what we want to do.
Some of us like to experience driving different vehicles.

But when you tell us our range rover is getting a sunroof, an engine upgrade, and new offroad tires when they open up a new territory to explore our thought is “sweet gunna go experience more of the world with my upgraded ride”

We don’t expect to have to drive 10,000 miles in the new territory with the upgrades installed before we’re allowed to open the sunroof or go offroad.
(we don’t mind getting some experience/learning how to drive offroad, just not that much)

Preferred the elite specs the way they were originally. I just wish the HP challenges weren’t champs if you were the only player there. Vets/Elites I think would have been hard enough, especially when some of the enemies abilities completely screw certain builds (looking at you shadowleapers >> ).

BulletNG.7069:

What is the conversion ratio from Skill Points to Hero Points? My Warrior had well over 400, if not 500 Skill Points before HoT, but I still don’t have enough Hero Points to unlock everything.

You earn a set number by lvl 80, all excess beyond that were converted to spirit shards a while back. (so that they could control how quickly we have access to stuff)

I see lots still complaining even with 250…this is meant to be “elite” people. I don’t necessarily even think 400 was unreasonable, though I am happier with 250. That said, for all those with several alts, including myself, soon to have 4×80s and I know others have many more, you CANNOT expect to unlock elite specs on a necromancer and automagically expect them to be given to you for your warrior or mesmer. The argument about being blocked behind masteries falls flat since masteries are account bound and only have to be done once and all your alts can use them. Something that might be a workable compromise, and I mentioned this in another thread, is to have the elite spec profession bound that you only have to unlock it once per profession, but even that seems like a bit of a shortcut to me….why should it be free?

Just a question:
WHY DO YOU HATE WARRIORS ANET?? WHY??
every class got something nice and strong with the elite spec..
Warrirors got nothing… most of us wont even bother getting the hero points..
You can change to 0 hero points needed to unlock berzerker…still gonna be a fail spec that just barely randoms gonna use for troll mode

Leamas.5803:

I see lots still complaining even with 250…this is meant to be “elite” people. I don’t necessarily even think 400 was unreasonable, though I am happier with 250. That said, for all those with several alts, including myself, soon to have 4×80s and I know others have many more, you CANNOT expect to unlock elite specs on a necromancer and automagically expect them to be given to you for your warrior or mesmer. The argument about being blocked behind masteries falls flat since masteries are account bound and only have to be done once and all your alts can use them. Something that might be a workable compromise, and I mentioned this in another thread, is to have the elite spec profession bound that you only have to unlock it once per profession, but even that seems like a bit of a shortcut to me….why should it be free?

The whole masteries thing is what will/would have made it easier on alts. Once you have completex your first run through, you will have unlocked a great deal of the previously inaccessible Hero challenges and your alts will pick them up much more easily. Of course if you start HoT on a character which has never earned a hero point in their (probably sub-hour) life you are going to struggle to reach the target (be it 250 or the better 400). You used a sanctioned means to skip over the lower level content; this is the price you pay. If everything were free it loses a great deal of its appeal.

I’ve seen so many complaints by people wailing about “how will i unlock my elite spec on my 27th toon?” – you do so by playing them. like any other character. If you forget this idea that you cannot play Heart of Thorns without using your ‘elite’ spec and just actually play through it, doing events as you come across them, skill points as they are nearby, unlocking the map as you go – you will very quickly find that you have your entire elite unlocked. Especially if you have actually played that character out in the world for any length of time.

The class i’m most struggling to unlock is druid. My ranger was my 8th 80 and a great deal of his levelling i did in the labrynth, last halloween. Now, of course, that means no world completion to speak of which means no hero challenges. I skipped over the intended levelling system; this is the price i pay. If i actually had spent time playing this character beyond 80, i’d surely have gotten more hero points. again; the price i pay.

You cannot expect to unlock elite specialisation on a character you were not, are not, and never will be willing to invest the time to actually play.
…at least not right away. I’d have been a lot more comfortable with this hero point reduction had it come 1-3 months down the track when the content is no longer so new and exciting just for its novelty. I fully anticipate ANet will add something in which will allow you to expend resources to unlock on an alt some or all the hero challenges you have acquired on your main.

ScribeTheMad.7614:

BulletNG.7069:

What is the conversion ratio from Skill Points to Hero Points? My Warrior had well over 400, if not 500 Skill Points before HoT, but I still don’t have enough Hero Points to unlock everything.

You earn a set number by lvl 80, all excess beyond that were converted to spirit shards a while back. (so that they could control how quickly we have access to stuff)

This makes sense. I knew I had more than what I started with.

ScribeTheMad.7614:

symke.3105:

I think they put too much emphasis, PR and marketing on new skill lines. Core Gw2 never had that feeling of “I have to buy this game, so I can play this or that class”. It was (and probably still is) about the fabulous world and plethora of things to do in it. With whatever class and/or skills you chose.

I’d say for a lot of us this is how we continue to feel.

The class is the vehicle by which we experience the world.

Experiencing the world is what we want to do.
Some of us like to experience driving different vehicles.

But when you tell us our range rover is getting a sunroof, an engine upgrade, and new offroad tires when they open up a new territory to explore our thought is “sweet gunna go experience more of the world with my upgraded ride”

We don’t expect to have to drive 10,000 miles in the new territory with the upgrades installed before we’re allowed to open the sunroof or go offroad.
(we don’t mind getting some experience/learning how to drive offroad, just not that much)

See, I didn’t expect anything more than what we got. ANet does not have a great history of making things easy to get or free. In fact I was considering the elite spec basically as the reward for actually playing the HoT content, much like unlocking all the core specs is essentially the reward for completing leveling to 80 in the base game. Everyone should be happy they didn’t convert the base game to the same model, where you actually have to play the game and do hero challenges to unlock your specs.

It’s not in their best interest to make things easily attainable…people would finish it quickly, get bored and leave.