John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Leftover Mastery Points Shop?
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i understand both sides, but i will say this, mastery points are designed to be an incentive to complete content. At the point at which they become surplus, with no purpose, they no longer achieve their goal.
They still are an incentive to play a multitude of content. What they aren’t (and shouldn’t be) is a strongarm to make players play and excel all of the content.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
i understand both sides, but i will say this, mastery points are designed to be an incentive to complete content. At the point at which they become surplus, with no purpose, they no longer achieve their goal.
If that was the sole purpose, then sure, that would be a mismatch.
However, I again urge people to read what the devs have actually written about this, they want a surplus of mastery point unlocks so that people feel free to pick and choose. Adding a potential reward for maxing changes that calculus.
It’s a deliberate design decision to offer a surplus, not an accident of different teams working independently.
their purpose is to be something to incentivize exploration/mastery in each expansion. Being free to pick and choose, in order to get mastery levels is not mutually exclusive with having a different use.
yes, having surplus points over what you need for full mastery is good, no after achieving full mastery, all mastery serving no purpose at all is not good.
yes some people will complain due to completionitis, but already some will complain due to percieved waste of effort.
having some purpose or use for excess mastery points is consistent with the concept of rewarding and incentivizing the gameplay. What form it could take is up to them. It doesnt have to be crazy.
i understand both sides, but i will say this, mastery points are designed to be an incentive to complete content. At the point at which they become surplus, with no purpose, they no longer achieve their goal.
They still are an incentive to play a multitude of content. What they aren’t (and shouldn’t be) is a strongarm to make players play and excel all of the content.
its not a strongarm, if the use is not of high impact. Lack of mastery levels is high impact, you lose access to skills an abilities.
gold?
exp?
titles?
trophies?
these are not high impact, are you strongarmed into doing every dynamic event, because it gives exp/gold? Is it strongarming you to kill 1000000000000 people in wvw because a title exists for it. Do you have to farm every orichalcum every day, because mats exist?
there is huge dif to requiring people to do everything to get masteries, and giving some type of bonus if someone goes above and beyond
i understand both sides, but i will say this, mastery points are designed to be an incentive to complete content. At the point at which they become surplus, with no purpose, they no longer achieve their goal.
If that was the sole purpose, then sure, that would be a mismatch.
However, I again urge people to read what the devs have actually written about this, they want a surplus of mastery point unlocks so that people feel free to pick and choose. Adding a potential reward for maxing changes that calculus.
It’s a deliberate design decision to offer a surplus, not an accident of different teams working independently.
their purpose is to be something to incentivize exploration/mastery in each expansion. Being free to pick and choose, in order to get mastery levels is not mutually exclusive with having a different use.
yes, having surplus points over what you need for full mastery is good, no after achieving full mastery, all mastery serving no purpose at all is not good.
yes some people will complain due to completionitis, but already some will complain due to percieved waste of effort.
having some purpose or use for excess mastery points is consistent with the concept of rewarding and incentivizing the gameplay. What form it could take is up to them. It doesnt have to be crazy.
You apparently haven’t read what the devs have said about it when they added 9 more mastery unlocks to core Tyria.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
i understand both sides, but i will say this, mastery points are designed to be an incentive to complete content. At the point at which they become surplus, with no purpose, they no longer achieve their goal.
If that was the sole purpose, then sure, that would be a mismatch.
However, I again urge people to read what the devs have actually written about this, they want a surplus of mastery point unlocks so that people feel free to pick and choose. Adding a potential reward for maxing changes that calculus.
It’s a deliberate design decision to offer a surplus, not an accident of different teams working independently.
their purpose is to be something to incentivize exploration/mastery in each expansion. Being free to pick and choose, in order to get mastery levels is not mutually exclusive with having a different use.
yes, having surplus points over what you need for full mastery is good, no after achieving full mastery, all mastery serving no purpose at all is not good.
yes some people will complain due to completionitis, but already some will complain due to percieved waste of effort.
having some purpose or use for excess mastery points is consistent with the concept of rewarding and incentivizing the gameplay. What form it could take is up to them. It doesnt have to be crazy.
You apparently haven’t read what the devs have said about it when they added 9 more mastery unlocks to core Tyria.
We all have, but it is our point of view that the devs mean to have freedom in unlocking masteries. However, why not give the masteries a second purpose after that goal had been reached. As long add the reward isn’t something game changing no player should feel forced to go after every mastery point.
And this isn’t about the core Tyria mastery points since we believe there might be future masteries.
This is about the near hundred mastery points in Heart of Thorns of which I’m 99,999999% sure anet will never add more masteries for, so their purpose of being freedom in choosing content is fulfilled once you have unlocked everything. I still have zero reason to believe a vendor then would be a strongarm for players to feel forced to complete all mastery points. They would simply be a niche reward for the overly active players
As long add the reward isn’t something game changing no player should feel forced to go after every mastery point.
Please, do read again the threads about locking skill points from xp behind raid masteries. Now think how game changing skill points are.
Consider, that to achieve your goal, the reward would likely have to be significantly less important than skill points.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Why do some people feel ‘pressured’ to complete all the Mastery Tracks just to receive a reward like Spirit Shards that are commonly acquired from all kinds of sources?
[Just a small clarification on this point – there may be some people who feel ‘pressured’ to complete all tracks for the spirit shards, but there are those of us that didn’t care about the shards. We just didn’t like our xp being denied because we didn’t want to raid. It didn’t feel justified to lock open world xp behind a raid. Legendary armour, yes. XP, no. It was the principle of the thing. I hate to bring this up again but it needs to be said every time this comes up and is painted as a spirit shards only thing. /rant]
On the subject of spare mastery points – I agree with the school of thought that making them useful would only compel people to hunt for more of them, leading to them doing content they don’t want to do and complaining about it. Leaving them to ‘rot’ in your hero panel may be the least of multiple evils.
Then, the reward is even more inconsequential. It was never about the Spirit Shards, but the feeling there was something to be attained. Still, in many a post, Spirit Shards are stated to be the ‘reward’ that is missing.
The point is, some players feel/felt pressured to complete all Mastery Tracks for something that, in essence, rewards little, but a feeling of satisfaction.
Likely, some players would want that same feeling of satisfaction, and feel pressured, to acquire more/all Mastery Points.
(edited by Inculpatus cedo.9234)
If your ‘mastery level’ displayed the total number of points you’ve earned rather than the number you’ve spent, that may be a small and immaterial reward for completing them all?
That said, if there were a shop that let you trade an excess HoT mastery point for say 50 of a HoT map currency, I wouldn’t see the harm. Though I also see no harm in simply having the extra points.
Instead of a Leftover mastery shop, how about a Mastery Excess system to turn the leftover mastery points to Magic find, Karma gain, Gold gain, etc.
If you put a mastery point to Magic find, you get +1% MF. But you can also retract the mastery point and put it somewhere else or give it to your mastery.
Also, the mastery excess system is locked and all mastery points get refunded until you get all mastery skills. This is so that no one feels pressured to not put points into mastery skills.
5x Warrior, 5x Ranger, 4x Elementalist, 4x Engineer,
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
Instead of a Leftover mastery shop, how about a Mastery Excess system to turn the leftover mastery points to Magic find, Karma gain, Gold gain, etc.
If you put a mastery point to Magic find, you get +1% MF. But you can also retract the mastery point and put it somewhere else or give it to your mastery.
Also, the mastery excess system is locked and all mastery points get refunded until you get all mastery skills. This is so that no one feels pressured to not put points into mastery skills.
In terms of the stated purpose of the surplus, that’s not any different; it’s still a “use” for the excess.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Instead of a Leftover mastery shop, how about a Mastery Excess system to turn the leftover mastery points to Magic find, Karma gain, Gold gain, etc.
If you put a mastery point to Magic find, you get +1% MF. But you can also retract the mastery point and put it somewhere else or give it to your mastery.
Also, the mastery excess system is locked and all mastery points get refunded until you get all mastery skills. This is so that no one feels pressured to not put points into mastery skills.
In terms of the stated purpose of the surplus, that’s not any different; it’s still a “use” for the excess.
The difference is that if ANet decide to add more mastery skills that uses more mastery points. Players can reuse their points rather than find out that they cannot use it anymore because they spent it on the mastery shop.
5x Warrior, 5x Ranger, 4x Elementalist, 4x Engineer,
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
i understand both sides, but i will say this, mastery points are designed to be an incentive to complete content. At the point at which they become surplus, with no purpose, they no longer achieve their goal.
On the other side, some people dont want to have any purpose in the extra ones, because they will feel compelled to get them.
I think some people are treating this as a black and white issue, and it is grey. They can give something, without it being as compelling as leveling a mastery. They could offer to convert them to new zones mastery points at lower rate. They could give exp that could be used in otherzones to level mastery. They could recreate the hall of monuments, and offer titles/trophies for getting them.
or they could have them be worthless, but i would think that it would be better for something meant to be incentive to do things still have some incentive, even if it becomes a lower incentive.
diminishing returns on investment isnt a crazy idea.
The thing is these “mastery points” tend to come with achievement points and those achievements often count towards meta achievements. That should really be enough of an incentive for any completionists who want to pursue them.
They don’t need any additional incentives and they don’t need to become a currency IMO, those should be enough.
Instead of a Leftover mastery shop, how about a Mastery Excess system to turn the leftover mastery points to Magic find, Karma gain, Gold gain, etc.
If you put a mastery point to Magic find, you get +1% MF. But you can also retract the mastery point and put it somewhere else or give it to your mastery.
Also, the mastery excess system is locked and all mastery points get refunded until you get all mastery skills. This is so that no one feels pressured to not put points into mastery skills.
In terms of the stated purpose of the surplus, that’s not any different; it’s still a “use” for the excess.
The difference is that if ANet decide to add more mastery skills that uses more mastery points. Players can reuse their points rather than find out that they cannot use it anymore because they spent it on the mastery shop.
The same-ness is it would not be a surplus if there is another use for it.
The point isn’t to have extra for potential, future masteries; it’s so people have a meaningful choice about whether to pursue all unlocks or not.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
TL;DR: Is recognizing effort such a bad thing? I’m impressed by people with 80+ spare, having only under 20 spare myself.
Didn’t think this would spark up 50+ comments. Between having my kitten handed to me and people supportive about it, here’s what’s been said so far and my view on it:
“The shop would endanger the freedom of doing whatever content you wish to do to reach max masteries”
The shop (or achievement, or something along those lines) is only unlocked after that mastery cap has been reached.
If you think of it as an achievement, it suddenly becomes really simple to implement. No spending is necessary, yet the sense of reward is there.
“The shop isn’t necessary as achievements giving out mastery points already exist”
Think of it as a meta achievement like they did in the stories; yes you get the achievements for completing x challenge in the story, yet you get a big achievement with a big reward if you complete all of them.
Which brings us to the next argument:
“Adding value to extra points would only make people feel forced into doing/excelling content they don’t want to do”
To the pure PvE-ers: Do you feel forced into WvW where you need to get Level2000 to get Legendary armor just because it’s “cheaper than making a PvE set”?
Effort shouldn’t be discarded as irrelevant. Going out of your way to get mastery points takes time (This isn’t a personal thing I’ve done and feel entitled to a reward; I have under 20 spare mastery points, whereas some have ~80+).
Heck, those with 80+ should have a reward of some kind, even if it is only Achievement points. It doesn’t have to be “1 achi point for 10 spare and 100 for 100 spare”; a linear giveout of achievement points for an increasingly difficult acquisition will, by itself, stop players where they feel they have done enough.
“What if Anet wants to add new masteries to a category and you spent the points already on rewards?”
With each expansion bringing with it a brand new category of mastery points, there isn’t any reason to add new masteries to a category; they want to sell the expac to more peeps, so they add content to it. And as I’ve stated before, map location doesn’t matter: Maguuma masteries have been used in maps like Ember Bay and Bitterfrost Frontier.
The “achievement” route also doesn’t involve spending mastery points, making that point even less relevant.
I give up. You’ve missed the entire point of “surplus”. Not every thing we do in the game has to have a reward in addition to the satisfaction of getting things done (not to mention the other rewards that we got while earning the point).
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
I give up. You’ve missed the entire point of “surplus”. Not every thing we do in the game has to have a reward in addition to the satisfaction of getting things done (not to mention the other rewards that we got while earning the point).
The point was NEVER to have extra points lying around for no reason whatsoever. The point was to have flexibility. Surplus was the means to that end.
And if that end has already been reached, surplus are worthless.
I give up. You’ve missed the entire point of “surplus”. Not every thing we do in the game has to have a reward in addition to the satisfaction of getting things done (not to mention the other rewards that we got while earning the point).
The point was NEVER to have extra points lying around for no reason whatsoever. The point was to have flexibility. Surplus was the means to that end.
And if that end has already been reached, surplus are worthless.
And if you give a secondary purpose to those points, that end won’t be reached.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
What if after receiving 144 points the others are automatically converted in to spirit shards?
What if after receiving 144 points the others are automatically converted in to spirit shards?
To me that would be fine as a vendor option,
Too people like inconceived-was-na it would still mean that the mastery points have a second usr
Notice also, that it would still prevent Anet from ever adding any new mastery to core/past expacs.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Notice also, that it would still prevent Anet from ever adding any new mastery to core/past expacs.
Core is no issue.
HoT is 100% if not more, finished now. All future masteries will cost CD-mastery-points
What if after receiving 144 points the others are automatically converted in to spirit shards?
To me that would be fine as a vendor option,
Too people like inconceived-was-na it would still mean that the mastery points have a second usr
You keep missing the point: I don’t really care one way or another. I have been pointing out that ANet cares, because they felt there was too much pressure on folks to go after masteries in areas that they didn’t like.
And you’re correct, it doesn’t matter how the mastery points are repurposed, if the goal is to have a surplus.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Notice also, that it would still prevent Anet from ever adding any new mastery to core/past expacs.
Core is no issue.
Why not?
HoT is 100% if not more, finished now. All future masteries will cost CD-mastery-points
Sure. HoT is most likely finished now. What about PoF? Should this subsystem wait till the next expac is out before you will be able to spend PoF mastery points?
Also, again, it means they wouldn’t ever be able to introduce any new core mechanic masteries – ones that wouldn’t be expac-specific. Even if they at some point decided that some might be useful.
That’s extremely limiting design.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Notice also, that it would still prevent Anet from ever adding any new mastery to core/past expacs.
Core is no issue.
Why not?
HoT is 100% if not more, finished now. All future masteries will cost CD-mastery-points
Sure. HoT is most likely finished now. What about PoF? Should this subsystem wait till the next expac is out before you will be able to spend PoF mastery points?
Also, again, it means they wouldn’t ever be able to introduce any new core mechanic masteries – ones that wouldn’t be expac-specific. Even if they at some point decided that some might be useful.
That’s extremely limiting design.
Because the vendor will be just for HoT points, and not the Core or PoF points
…so, unspent mastery points for HoT are a problem, but unspent mastery points for core and other expacs aren’t.
I see…
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
…so, unspent mastery points for HoT are a problem, but unspent mastery points for core and other expacs aren’t.
I see…
My question is, what if they add new maps that use new masteries which in turn use HoT Mastery points? I dont see the point in this to begin with, but it just seems like a good idea to have spares laying around in case it happens.
The pvp community reminds me of what Obi-kittenenobi describes Mos Eisley as from star wars.
…so, unspent mastery points for HoT are a problem, but unspent mastery points for core and other expacs aren’t.
I see…My question is, what if they add new maps that use new masteries which in turn use HoT Mastery points? I dont see the point in this to begin with, but it just seems like a good idea to have spares laying around in case it happens.
Because if they make more masteries for the remaining points people will feel pushed to get them since masteries are inherently ‘necessary’. A scrap vendor is anything but necessary and will just clean up the excess mess without pushing players
…so, unspent mastery points for HoT are a problem, but unspent mastery points for core and other expacs aren’t.
I see…My question is, what if they add new maps that use new masteries which in turn use HoT Mastery points? I dont see the point in this to begin with, but it just seems like a good idea to have spares laying around in case it happens.
Because if they make more masteries for the remaining points people will feel pushed to get them since masteries are inherently ‘necessary’. A scrap vendor is anything but necessary and will just clean up the excess mess without pushing players
Thats not what i was saying, if they introduce new maps that use a new mastery(like LW3) and a player has used all the masteries that they have at some vendor(if it was theoretically added) then how would they get the mastery. LW3 didnt add enough mastery points to get all of its mastery, so i see no reason why a new mastery tree that was added should it use the HoT mastery points would either.
Im not saying a merchant should be added, im against it, because i like the fact there is excess.
The pvp community reminds me of what Obi-kittenenobi describes Mos Eisley as from star wars.
…so, unspent mastery points for HoT are a problem, but unspent mastery points for core and other expacs aren’t.
I see…My question is, what if they add new maps that use new masteries which in turn use HoT Mastery points? I dont see the point in this to begin with, but it just seems like a good idea to have spares laying around in case it happens.
Because if they make more masteries for the remaining points people will feel pushed to get them since masteries are inherently ‘necessary’. A scrap vendor is anything but necessary and will just clean up the excess mess without pushing players
Thats not what i was saying, if they introduce new maps that use a new mastery(like LW3) and a player has used all the masteries that they have at some vendor(if it was theoretically added) then how would they get the mastery. LW3 didnt add enough mastery points to get all of its mastery, so i see no reason why a new mastery tree that was added should it use the HoT mastery points would either.
Im not saying a merchant should be added, im against it, because i like the fact there is excess.
That’s the reason why only HoT points would be legitimate. Because HoT, and LS3 are finished. Once PoF and LS4 are also finished they can be added to the vendor
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