Guild Wars 2

Larynx.2453:

ronpierce.2760:

Called it… So there you go. Revenant, a specialization and a weapon. Same as any other reveal. Even had a feeling it was staff because it was just updated. No more silly debate:

It’s not even an elite specialization. Not the same as any other reveal. It’s just a single normal specialization with a support weapon that matches the traits, like Greatsword and Strength for warrior. We don’t even get the name for this specialization.

Very let down by this. It’s just pointless filler. Multiple specializations, weapons, the elite specialization, Druid or “Difficult PvE content” would be better. This is barely a step above a Maguuma Centaur lore drop.

It’s all new. It provides just as much new unique information as the previous reveals. Your lack of care for revenant has little weight considering they will be revealing the same amount of info. It takes a while to reveal things in depth and of any class deserves the time, it’s the one that people have the least experience with.

Diovid.9506:

Larynx.2453:

ronpierce.2760:

Called it… So there you go. Revenant, a specialization and a weapon. Same as any other reveal. Even had a feeling it was staff because it was just updated. No more silly debate:

It’s not even an elite specialization. Not the same as any other reveal. It’s just a single normal specialization with a support weapon that matches the traits, like Greatsword and Strength for warrior. We don’t even get the name for this specialization.

Except the traits for the elite specializations were revealed at the stream so maybe that is what will happen tomorrow. Then again we might have to wait for the next beta. We’ll see.

Tell me the name of this elite specialization.

You can’t. It wasn’t given. Nowhere in the blog post do they give the name, like the three previous elite specializations, nor do the even use the word “elite specialization.” They don’t even tell us what the new elite spec specific profession mechanic is. There is literally no evidence that points to this being an elite specialization. It doesn’t even imply in any shape that the Staff is specific to Ventari, like it did with other previous blogs.

ronpierce.2760:

Larynx.2453:

ronpierce.2760:

Called it… So there you go. Revenant, a specialization and a weapon. Same as any other reveal. Even had a feeling it was staff because it was just updated. No more silly debate:

It’s not even an elite specialization. Not the same as any other reveal. It’s just a single normal specialization with a support weapon that matches the traits, like Greatsword and Strength for warrior. We don’t even get the name for this specialization.

Very let down by this. It’s just pointless filler. Multiple specializations, weapons, the elite specialization, Druid or “Difficult PvE content” would be better. This is barely a step above a Maguuma Centaur lore drop.

It’s all new. It provides just as much new unique information as the previous reveals. Your lack of care for revenant has little weight considering they will be revealing the same amount of info. It takes a while to reveal things in depth and of any class deserves the time, it’s the one that people have the least experience with.

It’s a normal specialization. That doesn’t carry nearly the same weight as an elite specialization does for the profession. It doesn’t get unique weapons. It has the same profession mechanic. It’s nothing special.

Larynx.2453:

ronpierce.2760:

Larynx.2453:

ronpierce.2760:

Called it… So there you go. Revenant, a specialization and a weapon. Same as any other reveal. Even had a feeling it was staff because it was just updated. No more silly debate:

It’s not even an elite specialization. Not the same as any other reveal. It’s just a single normal specialization with a support weapon that matches the traits, like Greatsword and Strength for warrior. We don’t even get the name for this specialization.

Very let down by this. It’s just pointless filler. Multiple specializations, weapons, the elite specialization, Druid or “Difficult PvE content” would be better. This is barely a step above a Maguuma Centaur lore drop.

It’s all new. It provides just as much new unique information as the previous reveals. Your lack of care for revenant has little weight considering they will be revealing the same amount of info. It takes a while to reveal things in depth and of any class deserves the time, it’s the one that people have the least experience with.

It’s a normal specialization. That doesn’t carry nearly the same weight as an elite specialization does for the profession. It doesn’t get unique weapons. It has the same profession mechanic. It’s nothing special.

It also shows a new mechanic in the game. Something that future elite spec for guardians might use with tomes. While its olny base specialization a new mechanic is far from nothing special.

Larynx.2453:

It’s a normal specialization. That doesn’t carry nearly the same weight as an elite specialization does for the profession. It doesn’t get unique weapons. It has the same profession mechanic. It’s nothing special.

It is a part of a completely new profession. Which we KNEW would have more blog posts. In fact I would say this carry MORE weight than an elite specialization, seeing as it gives us information about the very core of the profession.

You might not care about it, but that doesn’t make it useless information.

Heck, there are people that don’t care about the elite specializations at all, and yet we don’t see them here every week there is a elite specialization whining about not getting what they are interested in.

skowcia.8257:

It also shows a new mechanic in the game. Something that future elite spec for guardians might use with tomes. While its olny base specialization a new mechanic is far from nothing special.

There’s not enough information in this argument to even make a decent reply that’s more complex than “No.” It’s a new mechanic, but it’s not new technology. It’s like minions for necro, or turrets, or something. It’s not game changing. It’s not new technology, it’s reused technology, unlike other Rev mechanics. It’s not like they haven’t applied the basic idea behind the tablet to other skills, and in the interests of preserving prof identity they’re not likely to give any other profession such a great degree of focus on this same mechanic.

It’s a great and interesting skill set, but it’s not innovative and revolutionary like some of the other Revenant skills.

lordkrall.7241:

Larynx.2453:

It’s a normal specialization. That doesn’t carry nearly the same weight as an elite specialization does for the profession. It doesn’t get unique weapons. It has the same profession mechanic. It’s nothing special.

It is a part of a completely new profession. Which we KNEW would have more blog posts. In fact I would say this carry MORE weight than an elite specialization, seeing as it gives us information about the very core of the profession.

You might not care about it, but that doesn’t make it useless information.

Heck, there are people that don’t care about the elite specializations at all, and yet we don’t see them here every week there is a elite specialization whining about not getting what they are interested in.

I never said I didn’t care about it. I’m likely going to consider the Revenant as my new main character actually. I just said that it’s a let down because of all the possible speculated outcomes, this is 2nd to last in terms of scope or importance.

In fact, it’s so insignificant I don’t think anyone even speculated it would be only a single normal specialization. All the rev ideas were either it’s a part 2 drop of the profession with multiple weapons and legends, or it’s the elite specialization. I guess we got a weapon, so that’s something, hey.

It is not a normal specialization. It is a core of the profession itself.
A bit like an elementalists fire attunement or a necromancers death shroud.

I have seen plenty of speculation that we would get one legend and one weapon revealed “each time” actually. Something along the lines of 3 weeks of Elite Specializations, 2 weeks of something else, 1 week with another Revenant Legend and weapon, 3 weeks of Elite Specializations, 2 weeks of something else, 1 week with Revenant Legend and weapon and so on.

What part of same amount of information is hard to grasp? Full set of utilities, a trait tree and a weapon. Literally the same amount of info that elites give. The only thing special about elite specializations are minor mechanical changes to the base and that they are mutually exclusive to future elites. This is a sufficient amount of info for a brand new class that should be handled in parts so that it can be thoroughly discussed.

lordkrall.7241:

It is not a normal specialization. It is a core of the profession itself.
A bit like an elementalists fire attunement or a necromancers death shroud.

I have seen plenty of speculation that we would get one legend and one weapon revealed “each time” actually. Something along the lines of 3 weeks of Elite Specializations, 2 weeks of something else, 1 week with another Revenant Legend and weapon, 3 weeks of Elite Specializations, 2 weeks of something else, 1 week with Revenant Legend and weapon and so on.

You’re right actually, I forgot that Legends weren’t tied to trait trees.

Larynx.2453:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Conversely there is nothing stating definitively that he’s not either. Your logic goes both ways.

All we have is speculation, so neither of us is wrong.

I shouldn’t, but I can’t resist. I just want to point out this is completely wrong. The burden of proof lies on the one making a claim. I don’t need any evidence that says Ventari isn’t a rev spec. It’s actually impossible to prove a negative or unfalsifiable claim like that. Therefore the default and base stance is to assume that it is not, and it is the responsibility of the first party to create an argument that shows evidence and demonstrates that their claim is correct. Finding Ventari strings and models in the game files for a Maguuma zone is not evidence that he is a specialization. It’s evidence that he will appear in some form in the expansion, and people speculate that will take the form of a Revenant legend. It could just as easily be a Mist cameo, or a flashback, or even related to the Druid. It could not appear at all.

It turns out that the Rev spec was Ventari. That doesn’t make my original statement incorrect though. The logic only goes one way, not both.

Oh for crying out loud, this isn’t a court of law. Ugh

And yes, it does go both ways considering all we were working off of was specualtion and there was nothing absolutely concrete to use as proof one way or the other. Which, in either case neither of us was technically wrong

Now; however, since we do have the answer, yes you were very much wrong in speculating about it being Druid related.

You are correct that just because the data exists in the dat file and was datamined does not concretely say what something is necessarily. However, if you take into consideration the other general information, you can make some guesses.

At this point, you are simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

The raging sense of entitlement truly is overwhelming. How can you look at yourselves in the mirror and still spout this? I don’t like revenants at all. I knew the reveal would be pretty much exactly what it is. I’m happy since we are still getting a steady flow of significant information from Arenanet. Some of you guys are simply unbelievable.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Oh for crying out loud, this isn’t a court of law. Ugh

And yes, it does go both ways considering all we were working off of was specualtion and there was nothing absolutely concrete to use as proof one way or the other. Which, in either case neither of us was technically wrong

Now; however, since we do have the answer, yes you were very much wrong in speculating about it being Druid related.

You are correct that just because the data exists in the dat file and was datamined does not concretely say what something is necessarily. However, if you take into consideration the other general information, you can make some guesses.

At this point, you are simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

Actually it’s closer to philosophical or scientific than judicial. Realistically, in an actual court and outside legal ideals, it’s just as much the responsibility of the defendant to demonstrate their innocence as it is the job of the prosecution to prove their guilt. If a man was accused of kitten and he did nothing to defend himself, even if the only evidence was testimony from the alleged victim, he’d likely still be convicted. The same can’t be said for science. Both the burden of proof and the kitten bit, actually.

That’s what it looks like when I’m arguing for the sake of arguing. Regardless of semantics, it actually still doesn’t “go both ways.” When one asserts that their speculation is correct, it is very much their job to prove the claim. Because we have two pieces of information, and no evidence directly linking these two pieces of information, we need to resort to speculation and hypotheses to establish a connection. However, I am not speculating that the two pieces of information are not connected; it’s actually an objective observation. The two pieces are not directly connected. There was no evidence in the form of game data or from ArenaNet that Revenants would be getting a Ventari legend. When data on Ventari was found in the game files, people simply assumed Revenants and Ventari were linked, despite no actual direct connection. Like I already said and gave examples for, the Ventari data could just as easily been linked to something unrelated to revenants. After all, this expansion does take place in the Maguuma Jungle, the home of Ventari.

Let’s use an analog. The year is 1200, and humans don’t understand what disease is. People have ideas, but no concrete evidence. Some of the more popular ideas are that disease comes from imbalances in the body, or from tainted air. Someone comes along and makes a claim that disease is caused by invisible animals too tiny to touch, see, or detect in any way. These animals enter our bodies and start wreaking havoc, and that havoc manifests as disease. That person adamantly believes this to be the truth, but he has no evidence. It’s just an idea that makes sense to him, but everyone else says he’s crazy and he needs to put on a mask to stop breathing in bad air.

That man is more or less correct in his assertion, but his argument is flawed, incorrect, invalid, and any other adjective you want to use, precisely because his argument is logically inconsistent and doesn’t actually make falsifiable claims or give any evidence to support itself. An argument can’t stand only on its assertion, it needs substance to back it up. In other words, he was right, but for the wrong reasons. Just as you were.

If you want a more ridiculous example of the second paragraph, see Russell’s Teapot. Or in other words, how do we really know there isn’t an interplanetary celestial teapot in orbit around Mars?

And that marks the end of my interest in explaining basic philosophy and logic on the GW2 forums.

Larynx.2453:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Oh for crying out loud, this isn’t a court of law. Ugh

And yes, it does go both ways considering all we were working off of was specualtion and there was nothing absolutely concrete to use as proof one way or the other. Which, in either case neither of us was technically wrong

Now; however, since we do have the answer, yes you were very much wrong in speculating about it being Druid related.

You are correct that just because the data exists in the dat file and was datamined does not concretely say what something is necessarily. However, if you take into consideration the other general information, you can make some guesses.

At this point, you are simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

Actually it’s closer to philosophical or scientific than judicial. Realistically, in an actual court and outside legal ideals, it’s just as much the responsibility of the defendant to demonstrate their innocence as it is the job of the prosecution to prove their guilt. If a man was accused of kitten and he did nothing to defend himself, even if the only evidence was testimony from the alleged victim, he’d likely still be convicted. The same can’t be said for science. Both the burden of proof and the kitten bit, actually.

That’s what it looks like when I’m arguing for the sake of arguing. Regardless of semantics, it actually still doesn’t “go both ways.” When one asserts that their speculation is correct, it is very much their job to prove the claim. Because we have two pieces of information, and no evidence directly linking these two pieces of information, we need to resort to speculation and hypotheses to establish a connection. However, I am not speculating that the two pieces of information are not connected; it’s actually an objective observation. The two pieces are not directly connected. There was no evidence in the form of game data or from ArenaNet that Revenants would be getting a Ventari legend. When data on Ventari was found in the game files, people simply assumed Revenants and Ventari were linked, despite no actual direct connection. Like I already said and gave examples for, the Ventari data could just as easily been linked to something unrelated to revenants. After all, this expansion does take place in the Maguuma Jungle, the home of Ventari.

Let’s use an analog. The year is 1200, and humans don’t understand what disease is. People have ideas, but no concrete evidence. Some of the more popular ideas are that disease comes from imbalances in the body, or from tainted air. Someone comes along and makes a claim that disease is caused by invisible animals too tiny to touch, see, or detect in any way. These animals enter our bodies and start wreaking havoc, and that havoc manifests as disease. That person adamantly believes this to be the truth, but he has no evidence. It’s just an idea that makes sense to him, but everyone else says he’s crazy and he needs to put on a mask to stop breathing in bad air.

That man is more or less correct in his assertion, but his argument is flawed, incorrect, invalid, and any other adjective you want to use, precisely because his argument is logically inconsistent and doesn’t actually make falsifiable claims or give any evidence to support itself. An argument can’t stand only on its assertion, it needs substance to back it up. In other words, he was right, but for the wrong reasons. Just as you were.

If you want a more ridiculous example of the second paragraph, see Russell’s Teapot. Or in other words, how do we really know there isn’t an interplanetary celestial teapot in orbit around Mars?

And that marks the end of my interest in explaining basic philosophy and logic on the GW2 forums.

Wow that was long…and headache worthy. What you’re talking about and what I meant (by the logic going both ways) are not the same thing. (Probably should have caught that earlier, but it’s been a long day at work).

Another stance that does no damage. Is Anet trying to bring the trinity to life with Revenant, or just deliberately gimping them so no group wants them?

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Another stance that does no damage. Is Anet trying to bring the trinity to life with Revenant, or just deliberately gimping them so no group wants them?

Shiro is the damage one, best to wait. Also, sword hasn’t been fully “announced” nor finalized, which is where the damage will come in. Each legend has a purpose. Jalis is tanky, Corruption is utility/condition, Ventari is Support and healing and Shiro is DPS. There’s Glint, too, but I’m not sure what that is. Maybe a more defined utility-based legend.

Also, the “trinity” may become fairly real in the sense that players will have the option to be healers if they dedicate toward it. You can already see this with the engineer reworks, Bannershout warriors, and Ventari Staff or shield Revenants.

I wouldn’t worry about it though, options are good. People will still likely prefer to just go full zerker and dps their way through content. Personally, I find that as a shame, because it’s boring, but I doubt it’s going away so I wouldn’t get too worked up over it.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Another stance that does no damage. Is Anet trying to bring the trinity to life with Revenant, or just deliberately gimping them so no group wants them?

So you’re expecting VENTARI to deal damage huh…

Shiro will be the dps. Anet already announced all 5 legends: Ventari, Dwarf, Mallayx, Shiro, and Glint. Do your homework before blabbing please.

Oh, btw, Revenant is getting a permanent projectile reflection duh…