Guild Wars 2

MarkBecks.6453:

the drops should be higher for people doing the event from start to finish

Players who do an event from start to finish kills more mobs, and thus have more opportunities to drop something than those who do less.

MattyP.6954:

Leo G.4501:

..is the common answer. Frankly, it’s as incriminating as pleading the 5th but still, it doesn’t prove you did it but it makes others feel even stronger that you might have.

Basically, what I’m saying is it’s not very helpful, is of no comfort, and only makes people worry about the underlying code of the game more.

Why does the fact that the RNG is random incriminate Anet? The truth is that you don’t want a uniformly random system (which will occasionally yield low-probability craziness like one guy getting 5 drops), you want a system that favors you by giving you what you want. Fairness isn’t people getting rewarded by the RNG when they think it’s appropriate, it’s having a uniform loot table that applies to every player.

Nobody has given any compelling reason (“low-probability outliers exist” is not compelling) to believe that the system systematically favors any individuals or groups.

It’s just QQ that they didn’t get what they want.

There’s a multitude of things it could be telling, from being unfair to cheap. The point isn’t aimed at any particular thing, from my perspective. I have no vested interest in changing the system but I’ve also got no vested interest in keeping the status quo.

Labeling players who encourage discussion as QQers doesn’t help, just adds to the toxic behavior of the forums in general.

As for the portals, I could care less. I’ll likely be gone or busy when the beta tests happen anyway, but I find it lacks care to put such a task as random lottery. It doesn’t discriminate between those that have a passion for the game and the bot so just gets a lot shot in.

So maybe it is that a truly random system is the root of the problem. Leaving too much to chance rather than rewarding merit might be something to explore. Like, what if dodging only had a chance of evading damage rather than putting the merit of skilful dodging in your hands?

Leo G.4501:

MattyP.6954:

Leo G.4501:

..is the common answer. Frankly, it’s as incriminating as pleading the 5th but still, it doesn’t prove you did it but it makes others feel even stronger that you might have.

Basically, what I’m saying is it’s not very helpful, is of no comfort, and only makes people worry about the underlying code of the game more.

Why does the fact that the RNG is random incriminate Anet? The truth is that you don’t want a uniformly random system (which will occasionally yield low-probability craziness like one guy getting 5 drops), you want a system that favors you by giving you what you want. Fairness isn’t people getting rewarded by the RNG when they think it’s appropriate, it’s having a uniform loot table that applies to every player.

Nobody has given any compelling reason (“low-probability outliers exist” is not compelling) to believe that the system systematically favors any individuals or groups.

It’s just QQ that they didn’t get what they want.

There’s a multitude of things it could be telling, from being unfair to cheap. The point isn’t aimed at any particular thing, from my perspective. I have no vested interest in changing the system but I’ve also got no vested interest in keeping the status quo.

Labeling players who encourage discussion as QQers doesn’t help, just adds to the toxic behavior of the forums in general.

As for the portals, I could care less. I’ll likely be gone or busy when the beta tests happen anyway, but I find it lacks care to put such a task as random lottery. It doesn’t discriminate between those that have a passion for the game and the bot so just gets a lot shot in.

So maybe it is that a truly random system is the root of the problem. Leaving too much to chance rather than rewarding merit might be something to explore. Like, what if dodging only had a chance of evading damage rather than putting the merit of skilful dodging in your hands?

This is the problem with how this whole situation is being framed: beta access is not about rewarding people. If it was about rewarding people, then it would be a gem store purchase or reward for some sort of achievement (or achievement point total). No, randomly (and that’s the key word) giving out beta keys to players in a certain area is about getting a diverse group of testers to rigorously test an unfinished product on a large scale, but restricting that access to people who have access to the new areas and are motivated to actually deal with what would probably be a buggy and unfinished product.

The comparison to Dodging is very, very wrong. This is a mechanism for selecting beta-testers. It has no effect on game play. It has nothing to do with merit. The only metric that one could feasibly measure fairness with is “does every loot drop in SW and DryTop have the same chance of dropping a Portal?”, and nobody has offered anything but baseless conjecture, fallacious arguments, and spineless “something could be wrong” arguments to say that somehow the RNG system has to be unfair, because they didn’t get a Beta Portal (“And that guy got 5! OMG it’s rigged!”).

The only reward that we should expect from this beta portal event is a rigorously tested, relatively bug-free Expansion at launch. That’s it.

Blanche Neige.7241:

MarkBecks.6453:

the drops should be higher for people doing the event from start to finish

Players who do an event from start to finish kills more mobs, and thus have more opportunities to drop something than those who do less.

Point taken, but my beef is against the players that sit and do nothing, RNG does work if you do more events? Not, it needs the crowds to roll the numbers, or I could sit their for 2 years before I get a drop. Doing more events when their is 2 people taking forts is the frustrating part, then when the mobs come, the RNG kicks in and the portals drop. Its a catch 22 situation, and all I’m saying is it should work like WvW, no activity, warnings and a kick from the map to allow active players to keep the RNG numbers rolling, that would give you more chance.

MarkBecks.6453:

all I’m saying is it should work like WvW, no activity, warnings and a kick from the map to allow active players to keep the RNG numbers rolling, that would give you more chance.

I understand your point and it make sense. I always wondered myself why this was not implemented for PvE maps as well. It would help reduce unnecessary overflow/megaservers maps.

Just to be clear: We know that one player’s drop has no effect on the chance of it dropping for any other player and accounts can only be flagged once. Even though it would have absolutely no effect on the chance or reality of getting into this beta event, people are seriously asking the drop mechanics be changed because… they choose to feel bad. Please tell me people aren’t actually asking this.

Zaith.9132:

Just to be clear: We know that one player’s drop has no effect on the chance of it dropping for any other player and accounts can only be flagged once. Even though it would have absolutely no effect on the chance or reality of getting into this beta event, people are seriously asking the drop mechanics be changed because… they choose to feel bad. Please tell me people aren’t actually asking this.

Sorry to disappoint, but yeah… they’re asking this.

Blanche Neige.7241:

MarkBecks.6453:

all I’m saying is it should work like WvW, no activity, warnings and a kick from the map to allow active players to keep the RNG numbers rolling, that would give you more chance.

I understand your point and it make sense. I always wondered myself why this was not implemented for PvE maps as well. It would help reduce unnecessary overflow/megaservers maps.

It is, you get kicked from PVE maps after… an hour or something, I think. Much better than having it kick in if you stand still for a minute like in WvW…

You should be able to mail the portal to your friend

The only reason to limit the drop to one-per-person is psychology. People will feel better if they don’t see someone with six portals, even though on the backend the system tried to give that person six portals but the last 5 times it hit the beta account flag and got rid of the portal instead.

Honestly, I think limiting it to one portal per player account is a good idea, but only because it would stop people from whinging about players getting multiple portals.

MattyP.6954:

Leo G.4501:

MattyP.6954:

Leo G.4501:

..is the common answer. Frankly, it’s as incriminating as pleading the 5th but still, it doesn’t prove you did it but it makes others feel even stronger that you might have.

Basically, what I’m saying is it’s not very helpful, is of no comfort, and only makes people worry about the underlying code of the game more.

Why does the fact that the RNG is random incriminate Anet? The truth is that you don’t want a uniformly random system (which will occasionally yield low-probability craziness like one guy getting 5 drops), you want a system that favors you by giving you what you want. Fairness isn’t people getting rewarded by the RNG when they think it’s appropriate, it’s having a uniform loot table that applies to every player.

Nobody has given any compelling reason (“low-probability outliers exist” is not compelling) to believe that the system systematically favors any individuals or groups.

It’s just QQ that they didn’t get what they want.

There’s a multitude of things it could be telling, from being unfair to cheap. The point isn’t aimed at any particular thing, from my perspective. I have no vested interest in changing the system but I’ve also got no vested interest in keeping the status quo.

Labeling players who encourage discussion as QQers doesn’t help, just adds to the toxic behavior of the forums in general.

As for the portals, I could care less. I’ll likely be gone or busy when the beta tests happen anyway, but I find it lacks care to put such a task as random lottery. It doesn’t discriminate between those that have a passion for the game and the bot so just gets a lot shot in.

So maybe it is that a truly random system is the root of the problem. Leaving too much to chance rather than rewarding merit might be something to explore. Like, what if dodging only had a chance of evading damage rather than putting the merit of skilful dodging in your hands?

This is the problem with how this whole situation is being framed: beta access is not about rewarding people. If it was about rewarding people, then it would be a gem store purchase or reward for some sort of achievement (or achievement point total). No, randomly (and that’s the key word) giving out beta keys to players in a certain area is about getting a diverse group of testers to rigorously test an unfinished product on a large scale, but restricting that access to people who have access to the new areas and are motivated to actually deal with what would probably be a buggy and unfinished product.

The comparison to Dodging is very, very wrong. This is a mechanism for selecting beta-testers. It has no effect on game play. It has nothing to do with merit. The only metric that one could feasibly measure fairness with is “does every loot drop in SW and DryTop have the same chance of dropping a Portal?”, and nobody has offered anything but baseless conjecture, fallacious arguments, and spineless “something could be wrong” arguments to say that somehow the RNG system has to be unfair, because they didn’t get a Beta Portal (“And that guy got 5! OMG it’s rigged!”).

The only reward that we should expect from this beta portal event is a rigorously tested, relatively bug-free Expansion at launch. That’s it.

Except that Anet MADE it a reward. They could have just sent random emails, like they’ve always done before. Instead they made it a prized drop.

If it was about getting a diverse set of players then the portals wouldn’t be concentrated in the Maguuma Wastes, which attracts only a sub-type of players. If it were about getting useful testers, then they would have an application system where you tell them why you would be a good tester. Instead they turned it into a public lottery where players can grind for literally days without getting the touted REWARD.

Leo G.4501:

PPS:

MattyP.6954:

It’s not about you. It’s never been about you.

Yeah! It’s SO not about you that they had to give that one guy over there 5 of the expansion tester thingies that you didn’t get so that they’re SURE it’s not about you and SURE it’s about that one special dude with 5 portals knows that he’s OBLIGATED to enter that beta and not you!

Frankly, I don’t see the logic. Wouldn’t it be better to, at the very least, flag an account if they already have a portal if for no other reason than to make it look like your loot tables aren’t completely out of your control? Again, not about you, just about them not looking like they lack control over something people have been sorely suspicious about.

The sense of entitlement some people have. You want them to implement a string of code just so your tender feelings are protected?

The person that dropped 5 portals doesn’t take 5 spots, nor can they sell/trade/share their portals with their friends. So, the only reason you want them to limit multiple drops is so that you don’t feel cheated you didn’t get your portal yet.

Wow. What’s next? Limiting precursors because you didn’t get yours yet?

I doubt you ever realise what the responsibilities of a beta testers are. They don’t win a trip to Disneyland, they are asked to make sure the rides work properly and the toilets smell fine.

MattyP.6954:

This is the problem with how this whole situation is being framed: beta access is not about rewarding people. If it was about rewarding people, then it would be a gem store purchase or reward for some sort of achievement (or achievement point total). No, randomly (and that’s the key word) giving out beta keys to players in a certain area is about getting a diverse group of testers to rigorously test an unfinished product on a large scale, but restricting that access to people who have access to the new areas and are motivated to actually deal with what would probably be a buggy and unfinished product.

As has been mentioned, Anet put the beta test portal in loot. Loot is a reward.

How things are framed could be the problem which is kind of how I initially replied to the thread. The whole situation would be framed less offensive if an account tagged with the drop received no more portals.

MattyP.6954:

The comparison to Dodging is very, very wrong. This is a mechanism for selecting beta-testers. It has no effect on game play.

Then use the hypothetical to make a link instead of finding the differences and dismissing it. The point was, merit is a good factor to reward and chance is lesser so. People seem very adamant about defending “by chance” outcomes as fair…what if more of the battle mechanics were “by chance” as well? How do you think people would react if merit of skillful and observant play was backseat to chance?

All I’m saying is, think twice before saying RNG is fair thus deserves not to be looked into.

Leo G.4501:

As has been mentioned, Anet put the beta test portal in loot. Loot is a reward.

No, loot is loot. It’s a system that randomly grants players certain items based on their actions. Since those items tend to be beneficial, you choose to treat loot as reward.

This time, Anet uses loot’s RNG system to distribute an item that is not a reward.

Leo G.4501:

People seem very adamant about defending “by chance” outcomes as fair…what if more of the battle mechanics were “by chance” as well? How do you think people would react if merit of skillful and observant play was backseat to chance? All I’m saying is, think twice before saying RNG is fair thus deserves not to be looked into.

Do you not understand how stupid that argument is?

Combat is about rewarding the most skilled player, not randomly picking a winner.

The beta portal is exactly that. It picks a random player and grants them access to the beta. The only difference with this wave is that instead of being completely random, the number hours spent farming SW is one of the factors.

RabbitUp.8294:

Leo G.4501:

As has been mentioned, Anet put the beta test portal in loot. Loot is a reward.

No, loot is loot. It’s a system that randomly grants players certain items based on their actions. Since those items tend to be beneficial, you choose to treat loot as reward.

This time, Anet uses loot’s RNG system to distribute an item that is not a reward.

And now we’re arguing semantics. If loot isn’t a reward to you then so be it. If loot didn’t exist, events in the game would have little to no meaning.

RabbitUp.8294:

Do you not understand how stupid that argument is?

Combat is about rewarding the most skilled player, not randomly picking a winner.

The beta portal is exactly that. It picks a random player and grants them access to the beta. The only difference with this wave is that instead of being completely random, the number hours spent farming SW is one of the factors.

Hahah, do you realize how childish you sound?

Okay, whatever. You have your own viewpoint. PvE has no rewards, loot is its own definition (do we need to go into the REAL definition of the word?) and the way all things should distributed is chance.

Regardless, I’ll refrain from replying to you if you’re going to stoop to insults.

Sounds to me like you have no argument to make. Which was evident already by your previous post I quoted above about how everything is really about you.

If it really bothers you that much that other people were favoured more by the RNG than you were, you might need to take a break and re-evaluate your priorities.

Oh, I can definitely argue, especially with weak points brought up (can so break down the whole loot =\= reward point or the point of farming even) but it’s simply not worth my time. Discussions with people like you always lead nowhere, just where your blinders you have on will lead you.

And as I mentioned before, I have no vested interest in any particular change regarding the beta test portals. It’s why I can freely ignore you. So proceed with your taunting. It’s all off topic anyway.

The topic was never about the nature of loot. It’s right there in the title.

You made some ridiculous comparison to try to shoot down the supporters of RNG, and that’s the closest you had to an argument.

DaShi.1368:

Randomness is supposed to be fair. However, there is reason to suspect that things might not be truly random.

So, what, the developers have some hidden code to favor some people over others?

Do you believe that is the case?

DaShi.1368:

Do you believe that is the case?

I’d hope not, but you keep saying its not truly random. If it isn’t, what would you expect it to be?

Look, absolutely true randomness is a bit of a myth in most cases, especially in computer games, but they can make it as random as possible. So it really made me wonder why you multiple times made the accusation that there isn’t randomness in the game.

It was an odd statement.

I keep saying it? How many times have I said it? I said it once here. Just because I’ve been attacked several times for saying doesn’t mean that I keep saying it. I certainly haven’t been pushing it. Others have been saying it too. Why are you singling out me well after the point has been made and the discussion complete?

Not really sure what you’re trying to get at here. What I’m trying to get is, whether you want to have a discussion on the topic or just want to make accusations against me. Given that your last post is more about me than the topic, you can understand my concern.

MattyP.6954:

It’s not about you. It’s never been about you.

Video games aren’t about me[the player]? That’s a new one.

They must be about sustainable world economies or a manned space mission to Mars then.

Odyssey.2613:

MattyP.6954:

It’s not about you. It’s never been about you.

Video games aren’t about me[the player]? That’s a new one.

They must be about sustainable world economies or a manned space mission to Mars then.

This is not about playing a video game. It’s a beta test, an unpaid job.

I can do no longer the flawed argument to people complaining that states, “it doesn’t matter if they get 5 portal stones, it is still only 1 beta access”.

You have got it the wrong way around. It DOES matter that they have 5 portals. YES it is only one beta access, so WHY do they need 5 of the item?

The problem isn’t about people getting beta access, so let me be clear on that.

It is about people getting an item they only need one of multiple times. It can be quite disheartening for those farming all week seeing people ping 6 of them.

When an item of this type drops so frequently for some and never for others then questions need to be asked.

Mystic forge is a gamble, if I get 4 precursors from 16 rares then my gamble paid off. That is RNG.

This portal business however is not RNG. It’s fixed and predetermined.