Guild Wars 2

DarcShriek.5829:

I can’t understand why Queen Jenna and Anise would agree to considering the Mursaat as allies. They have bad history with them.

Less so than with the Charr, I’d say.

DarcShriek.5829:

I can’t understand why Queen Jenna and Anise would agree to considering the Mursaat as allies. They have bad history with them.

A huge amount of the Pact was destroyed, so desperate times call for desperate measures.

They look like a cross between mursaat and the enchanted from gw1

Crise.9401:

I have to give props for your fantastic retelling of these history defining moments in the GW universe TheBlackLeech.

Conclusion, trust Mursaat, except that one that swore vengeance on humanity of course. Unless you are Asura of course in which case all is well, let those stupid bookah deal with bookah problems.

Well, TheBlackLeech missed the part where the sacrifices were being performed on the order of the mursaat, after the mursaat killed or kidnapped all of the WM leadership that wasn’t fanatical enough to carry out such orders without question.

That said, on having watched the trailer a few times now, I’m seeing reasonable doubt that these are the mursaat:

First, that city. While our views are being coloured by seeing what we believe to be mursaat, my first thought on seeing that was that it looked Vabbian. The whole ‘hanging gardens’ theme.

And on that line of thought… we’re looking at the glow and attributing that to a redesign… but when you look closely at the glowing features, they don’t just glow – while the mursaat in the past had actual flesh, what these figures seem to have is pulsating energy confined within an exoskeleton of armour pieces. Furthermore, while all the mursaat we knew before were golden with eight black feathery tendrils, here we have a council of three, red, yellow and blue, with two tendrils each.

We’ve seen that before, in flavours of ruby, diamond, and sapphire.

Wasn’t Murssat shifting between the dimensions or something like that. I thought we could them see in GW1 just after we get the gift of true sight. So the appearance could change between mursaat who want to be seen and mursaat who are seen because of the true sight.

And if the mursaat try a new revolution in kryta, i will hunt them down through the whole jungle this time.

Who would hunt them instead of bowing down in front of them? They are Unseen Gods!

OBEY!

DarcShriek.5829:

I can’t understand why Queen Jenna and Anise would agree to considering the Mursaat as allies. They have bad history with them.

Germany was at war with almost everyone just 70 years ago and now everybody drives german cars and wants to be friends with them… well, everybody except Greece I suppose…

That city has a mursaat symbol on the door, by the way. Or at least the White Mantle symbol. If they’re not mursaat, then they’re white mantle who transformed themselves into what they thought the mursaat looked like.

But to be quite honest, I’m pretty sure they’re a mursaat redesign. They don’t look like Djinn, Margonites don’t look like that and wouldn’t make any sense, Seers have four arms, Forgotten are upright snakes with four arms that don’t wear armor or clothing, etc etc. Despite their new appearance I’m fairly certain they’re mursaat.

Over on reddit there is a collection of stills from the trailer, and the one marked mursaat brings more to mind glowing krait than humanoids.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2tjqxw/all_shots_from_the_trailer_in_stills/

http://imgur.com/a/cU062

As such, i’m starting to think we are etiher looking at forgotten, or some kind of forgotten/mursaat hybrid.

During the room entry shot i don’t think they were so much floating as standing tall on their tails.

https://i.imgur.com/eytBbvE.png

And during the “new allies” moment there is a tail poking out in the lower left corner.

https://i.imgur.com/vNzfTLw.png

I believe those are Forgotten followers, I’ve explained my reasons here.

digiowl.9620:

During the room entry shot i don’t think they were so much floating as standing tall on their tails.

https://i.imgur.com/eytBbvE.png

Hmm I´m rather certain that they are floating, like the one in the cinematic trailer

digiowl.9620:

And during the “new allies” moment there is a tail poking out in the lower left corner.

https://i.imgur.com/vNzfTLw.png

I´m also very sure the one in this shot is entangled/being held down by mordrem vines and that the thing in the left corner is the tip of one of these vines.

Consider all hints at the White Mantle we were given during the last couple of episodes, the design similarities to the original Mursaat and the Maguuma Jungle as the main location for the expansion.
I think it is pretty safe to assume that the Mursaat will make a come-back in HoT.

However, even though it is probably highly unlikely, I wouldn´t count the Margonites out yet (because of… reasons).

I see no “tail.” They look like they are floating to me. And in the second pic that’s not a tail. The Mursaat is being grabbed by a Mordy minion vine and is blasting at it. Plus, there are so many in-game hints that these are related to Mursaat. No way they are Forgotten, they don’t look even remotely snake like. Anet does redesigns but there is still some slight semblance to the original design. They don’t have extra arms of the seers, they aren’t snake-like to be Forgotten. To me they look the most like the Mursaat and with all the Mursaat hints that makes the most sense.

digiowl.9620:

Over on reddit there is a collection of stills from the trailer, and the one marked mursaat brings more to mind glowing krait than humanoids.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2tjqxw/all_shots_from_the_trailer_in_stills/

http://imgur.com/a/cU062

As such, i’m starting to think we are etiher looking at forgotten, or some kind of forgotten/mursaat hybrid.

During the room entry shot i don’t think they were so much floating as standing tall on their tails.

https://i.imgur.com/eytBbvE.png

And during the “new allies” moment there is a tail poking out in the lower left corner.

https://i.imgur.com/vNzfTLw.png

About all the talk of Mursaat being self serving and selfish – the only question popping in my head is “So what?”.

Since when being selfish and self serving is equal to being a villain? If it is so, then majority of well… every living being with more than two brain cells are villains. From amoeba upwards, everything is ultimately self serving an selfish.

Just because Mursaat killed a ton of humans or two to keep titans at bay – it’s in the past now, and the war with humans is long over. And btw, we have more than one playable race, there is no need for any race other than human to be automatically hostile with Mursaat.

Charr? Yeah, Mursaat were opposing titans – Flame Legion Gods, ergo enemies of the other Legions. Also killed a charr (Flame Legion in charge) army invading Kryta. Where the automatic hostility?

Norn – do not give a flying dolyak about human wars in most cases, right?

Asura – like above, but with golems.

Sylvari – were not around, also they are dragon kittenes, who are they to judge?

Humans – Yeah, yeah, White Mantle, the whole shebang, but they did sign a peace treaty with the charr. Charr killed more humans than Mursaat.

I really see no reason why Mursaat can’t be our allies, at least for part of the story. Being self centered is the least of the reason, we saw during the cutscene Ryltock cutting the vines blocking the gate to the city – could be that Mursaat are under siege by mordrem, and they need our help to survive, and in return will offer us knowledge on how to fight the dragon, or other useful info for us. And then they will screw us over at first convenience of course, whenever they get what they want from us.

Does queen jenna have a secret history i dont know about? last i checked she was the boring lady that sits in a gilded hall of divinitys reach and hasn’t lifted a finger to do anything from day one. Anise is a high powered mesmer so who knows what her motives are and if she’s even really a lady (lets face it she could be the true descendent to the throne as she seems to pull all the strings in divintys reach yes im saying she could be a bloke)

draxynnic.3719:

Well, TheBlackLeech missed the part where the sacrifices were being performed on the order of the mursaat, after the mursaat killed or kidnapped all of the WM leadership that wasn’t fanatical enough to carry out such orders without question.

I wasn’t 100% serious with my post if anything I found his recap amusing because of the style it was written in more than anything else.

As for them being Mursaat or not, we don’t know but it seems pretty likely. I am not an expert on GW1 by any means, however, do we even know that all Mursaat acted as one during the events of GW1 for certain, any races tend to have minorities that do what they please (implying that our new allies could be this minority, which would leave lazarus and his potential followers to be the antagonists, same way flame legion is the bad Charr faction).

Also, 250 years is a very long time. Now when the mists are involved the concept of time can become bit more complicated though.

Also, all other things aside, there is the age old saying “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” It could easily apply here at least for the time being as long as the dragons, are relevant. I would very much welcome an uneasy alliance with the Mursaat just because it seems like an interesting setup in more ways than one. I agree that them suddenly being genuine allies just like that would feel weird but I don’t see working with them to be totally absurd either if the circumstances are right.

Am I the only one who doesn’t want them as allies?

They’re an overrated GW1 trash mob that I already sent packing.

TurtleofPower.5641:

They’re an overrated GW1 trash mob that I already sent packing.

Well then you can go kill them all by yourself if you’re so confidant. Also, there are no known Seers or Eidolons, so enjoy that Spectral Agony.

DarcShriek.5829:

I can’t understand why Queen Jenna and Anise would agree to considering the Mursaat as allies. They have bad history with them.

They saved Kryta from the charr, when Jenna’s ancestor abandoned his people?

Seriously, the Charr caused humanity much more harm than the Mursaat.

Indirectly destroyed Orr. If Catalysm wasn’t cast, Orr would still be destroyed by them.

Caused the Searing and killed many innocents in Ascalon, they continued to siege the city for decades.

Invaded Kryta, if it wasn’t the Mursaat, Kryta would have been gone as well.

Are they Mursaat? it could be seers or perhaps the druids

Margonites, Mursaat…. heck, it could be an entire new race. Heck, look at the back armor piece you could get from the Karka with the flailing back arms.

Let’s face it, flailing back thingies are pretty common in the GW world.

They don’t look like Mursaat, they have more in common with their constructs than the actual floating humanoids we know from GW1.

The symbol on the door and the gold armor are the only signs pointing towards a potentially redesigned Mursaat, but the architecture surrounding them does not, since GW1 Mursaat had dark purple structure designs, and LS2 episode 8 even clearly stated the gold structures are made by the Forgotten... And given that they do appear semi-snake like in some of the screenshots, they could just as well be redesigned Forgotten.

I think a more likely possibility is that these creatures are simply just new ’friendly’ elementals of some sort. I know, I know, that really makes it sound a lot less exciting, doesnt it? Unfortunately I’m not quite ready to jump on the Mursaat band-wagon just yet, considering what we know so far.

... Either that or ArenaNet ret-coned a whole bunch of stuff and past lore is no longer relevant.

Edit: Apparantly the forum filter thinks "doesn’t it" is offensive and filters it.

Those obviously are Mursaat.

I thought Mursaat were stronger than gods. Couldn’t they just 1-shot the EDs? I mean, Destiny’s Edge nearly 5-manned Kralkatorrik…

I wonder if the Asuran will be deeply interested with the Mursaat since “Rata Sum” also spell out Mursaat!

zwierz.9012:

About all the talk of Mursaat being self serving and selfish – the only question popping in my head is “So what?”.

Since when being selfish and self serving is equal to being a villain? If it is so, then majority of well… every living being with more than two brain cells are villains. From amoeba upwards, everything is ultimately self serving an selfish.

Just because Mursaat killed a ton of humans or two to keep titans at bay – it’s in the past now, and the war with humans is long over. And btw, we have more than one playable race, there is no need for any race other than human to be automatically hostile with Mursaat.

Charr? Yeah, Mursaat were opposing titans – Flame Legion Gods, ergo enemies of the other Legions. Also killed a charr (Flame Legion in charge) army invading Kryta. Where the automatic hostility?

Norn – do not give a flying dolyak about human wars in most cases, right?

Asura – like above, but with golems.

Sylvari – were not around, also they are dragon kittenes, who are they to judge?

Humans – Yeah, yeah, White Mantle, the whole shebang, but they did sign a peace treaty with the charr. Charr killed more humans than Mursaat.

I really see no reason why Mursaat can’t be our allies, at least for part of the story. Being self centered is the least of the reason, we saw during the cutscene Ryltock cutting the vines blocking the gate to the city – could be that Mursaat are under siege by mordrem, and they need our help to survive, and in return will offer us knowledge on how to fight the dragon, or other useful info for us. And then they will screw us over at first convenience of course, whenever they get what they want from us.

So you’re willing to give your life so someone else can be more powerful. Good to know, what’s your address?

Really, the Mursaat are EVIL. They maintained control by sacrificing innocents. The invaded Lion’s Arch for the purpose of killing Queen Selma. The White Mantle hunted down members of the Shining Blade.

How will we be able to be allies of the Mursaat if we are not ascended? We won’t even know they’re there.

You’re making a kittenumption that those characters are one of the new Allies, just because they showed them in the trailer(along with several other civilizations) doesn’t necessarily make them ONE of the new Allies.

Zaklex.6308:

You’re making a kittenumption that those characters are one of the new Allies, just because they showed them in the trailer(along with several other civilizations) doesn’t necessarily make them ONE of the new Allies.

But in the trailer it shows the Mursaat (or whatever it is) and flashes “NEW ALLIES.” So obviously they are. Are they the only ones? Probably not, but they are definitely one set of allies according to the trailer.

DarcShriek.5829:

So you’re willing to give your life so someone else can be more powerful. Good to know, what’s your address?

Really, the Mursaat are EVIL. They maintained control by sacrificing innocents. The invaded Lion’s Arch for the purpose of killing Queen Selma. The White Mantle hunted down members of the Shining Blade.

How will we be able to be allies of the Mursaat if we are not ascended? We won’t even know they’re there.

The Chosen were killed to seal of the Door, that’s protecting the world.

Well the Charr were responsible for destroying 2 human kingdoms, killing countless innocents and almost destroyed Kryta, we still ally with them.

DarcShriek.5829:

I can’t understand why Queen Jenna and Anise would agree to considering the Mursaat as allies. They have bad history with them.

Given how manipulative and “pragmatic” those 2 are, the Mursaat would probably be perfect soulmates

As other lore related discussions have taught us, the most obvious answer is usually the right one with Arenanet, and minor points that show the obvious answer to be wrong don’t usually work out.

Windsagio.1340:

As other lore related discussions have taught us, the most obvious answer is usually the right one with Arenanet, and minor points that show the obvious answer to be wrong don’t usually work out.

To me they already made this very clear: They are Mursaat.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Windsagio.1340:

As other lore related discussions have taught us, the most obvious answer is usually the right one with Arenanet, and minor points that show the obvious answer to be wrong don’t usually work out.

To me they already made this very clear: They are Mursaat.

Yeah that’s what I’m saying, the obvious answer is mursaat, and tryign to find fault in the assets/deep lore/etc. hasn’t really worked out.

DarcShriek.5829:

Really, the Mursaat are EVIL. They maintained control by sacrificing innocents. The invaded Lion’s Arch for the purpose of killing Queen Selma. The White Mantle hunted down members of the Shining Blade.

Worse than evil, they’re STUPID. Why were they killing innocents? To lock the Door of Komalie so no one could open it. Why did we unlock the Door of Komalie, allowing the Lich to open it? Because they were killing innocents! Our only reason for being in the Ring of Fire or going through Ascension was stopping the slaughter. If the mursaat had just quietly mounted a guard to warn people away, we would never have even heard of the place, much less gone there.

The mursaat (not to mention Khilbron) basically fell for Glint’s bait, making the Flameseeker Prophecies a self-fulfilling prophecy. If they hadn’t known the prophecy, they never would have carried it out. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

I do hope we get an answer, though, to the question of just why the titans had such a beef with the mursaat. Yes, titans were a danger to everyone, but there seemed to be something personal in the way they hunted down mursaat in particular. We know that titans were made in the Foundry from tortured souls. Were they created from the souls of a race that was wronged and killed by the mursaat long before? Seers, perhaps?

I also wonder how much we will learn about these so-called “bandits” who have a militaristic organization, a strong presence in the Maguuma, and secret installations in Queensdale and Harathi Hinterlands displaying the symbol of the White Mantle. How did they become involved with the Nightmare Court and the Inquest? Are they still working for or with the mursaat?

BrettM.9062:

Worse than evil, they’re STUPID. Why were they killing innocents? To lock the Door of Komalie so no one could open it. Why did we unlock the Door of Komalie, allowing the Lich to open it? Because they were killing innocents! Our only reason for being in the Ring of Fire or going through Ascension was stopping the slaughter. If the mursaat had just quietly mounted a guard to warn people away, we would never have even heard of the place, much less gone there.

The mursaat (not to mention Khilbron) basically fell for Glint’s bait, making the Flameseeker Prophecies a self-fulfilling prophecy. If they hadn’t known the prophecy, they never would have carried it out. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

I do hope we get an answer, though, to the question of just why the titans had such a beef with the mursaat. Yes, titans were a danger to everyone, but there seemed to be something personal in the way they hunted down mursaat in particular. We know that titans were made in the Foundry from tortured souls. Were they created from the souls of a race that was wronged and killed by the mursaat long before? Seers, perhaps?

I also wonder how much we will learn about these so-called “bandits” who have a militaristic organization, a strong presence in the Maguuma, and secret installations in Queensdale and Harathi Hinterlands displaying the symbol of the White Mantle. How did they become involved with the Nightmare Court and the Inquest? Are they still working for or with the mursaat?

No, the door require “battery”, the souls to shut down, which is why they are killing Chosen.

Yes. Those spirits you fought after destroying the soul batteries were once Chosen, just like you. But time and their imprisonment has changed many of them. But not all of us were transformed into those hideous things. Some of us remained good and pure of heart. And we are grateful to be free, but thanks to Vizier Khilbron’s treachery, our release came with a price… the release of the Titans.

draxynnic.3719:

Well, TheBlackLeech missed the part where the sacrifices were being performed on the order of the mursaat, after the mursaat killed or kidnapped all of the WM leadership that wasn’t fanatical enough to carry out such orders without question.

I didn’t “miss that part” because that “part” is not really part of what I was describing.

The White mantle was founded by Saul D’Alessio . He had been given great knowledge by the Mursaat, and wanted to spread the word to the people of kryta.

The White Mantle was originally formed as a faith, which worshipped the Unseen Ones (Nobody but Saul at this point ever got to see the Mursaat, and it was entirely based on faith)

Saul and the White Mantle used their new found faith and knowledge to drive back the Charr, and by this point he White Mantle became so powerful that it turned into a government (more so than a mere religious following…. but still heavily influenced by worship of the Mursaat). Peace to Kryta was restored thanks to the White Mantle and their newly found gods.

Saul and the Mantle, unsatisfied with their newly achieved peace, and against the will of the Mursaat, made an attempt to assassinate the Charr leaders….. and although they were successful, the Charr army closed in upon them shortly afterward, seemingly sealing their fate.

At that moment, a small handful of Mursaat revealed themselves to the Charr army and obliterated them.

Disgusted by the actions of Saul and the Mantle, The Mursaat then turned on the White Mantle and destroyed them, too. All but a small handful of worshippers, those deemed to be the most devoted, were destroyed.

Years passed and the remaining White Mantle grew in numbers and in power. In this time, The Mursaat, having knowledge of the flameseeker prophecies and how it foretold the destruction, of not only their race, but many of the races in Tyria…. all at the hand of the titans… formed a tighter and more focused relationship with the Mantle.

As long as the White Mantle protected the Mursaat, the Mursaat protected the White Mantle.

It is known that The Door of Komalie (the door to the realm where the titans resided) was held closed, by sacrificing the Chosen on the bloodstone in the Maguuma Jungle. If there were no sacrifices made, it would mean the release of the titans, and the destruction of the Mursaat, man, and much of Tyria as it was known in that day.

It was a necessary sacrifice….. few lives to save many.

If anything, as I stated before the Mursaat are neutral. They, like all races, value self preservation, and reward loyalty. They have had symbiotic relationships with humans in the past…. and the only reason why they were enemies in Guild Wars, was because we, as the protagonists, were against their cause. They are a powerful ally, but can also prove to be a powerful adversary if you are not on their side or anger them.

Since they reside deep within the jungle…. it is only fair to assume they would want Mordremoth’s minions eradicated, and I would be more than willing to bet that they would happily employ the help of humans once again.

People both care a ton about the lore and also put just a ton into twisting what was pretty clearly the writers intent.

We, as a geek culture, are so weird ><

The obvious has been wrong before.

It’s entirely possible that this is a redesign of the mursaat, but on the other hand, it could be djinns, a redesign of Enchanted, a revelation that the Enchanted had actually been powered by djinns all along and we just didn’t see it. There are other possibilities.

Regarding the symbol – it certainly does have similarities in design to the White Mantle symbol and the bandit scrawls. However, I haven’t been able to find any other symbol that exactly matches it, and there are other symbols that are similar to it that we know darn well would be out of place in that region (the Flame Legion symbol and the Kurzick symbol both have similarities in design influences) and while the ten radiating spikes on the symbol certainly seem reminiscent of the old mursaat design, they certainly do not match the single pair of tendrils we see in the trailer.

It’s a fairly abstract symbol. A winged humanoid could also be a reference to Dwayna, with the city belonging to a people dedicated to the gods. From a different perspective, the winged humanoid part of the symbol could also be the top of a dragon’s head with the snout pointing down – the symbol could actually be a reference to Glint.

Regarding the colour of the architecture: It doesn’t match the purple that we saw of mursaat architecture in GW1, but that might not be important. The story of Saul does talk about him seeing a golden city, after all, so it could be simply that the mursaat choose to use different materials for their homes than for their military installations.

On the other hand, though, we’ve already seen that a golden transmutation is associated with the Forgotten. As mentioned above, what we’re seeing could be a redesign of the Enchanted showing what’s powering the armour rather than leaving it invisible – the similarity between the design of the Enchanted and of the armour of the mursaat is one that has been observed before.

What the heck is this? Enchanted were not casters, nor do they have wings.

It’s totally unnecessary to make such wild round guess, they are Mursaat, simple.

>Mursaat
>Allies

I don’t want to be allies with the very race that backstabbed everyone else the last time the dragons awoke.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

>Mursaat
>Allies

I don’t want to be allies with the very race that backstabbed everyone else the last time the dragons awoke.

What are you even talking about?

The backstabbing is that the other elder races were relying on the mursaat to hold their part of the alliance, and the mursaat found a way to hide and took it instead of supporting their allies.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Saul and the White Mantle used their new found faith and knowledge to drive back the Charr, and by this point he White Mantle became so powerful that it turned into a government (more so than a mere religious following…. but still heavily influenced by worship of the Mursaat). Peace to Kryta was restored thanks to the White Mantle and their newly found gods.

Saul and the Mantle, unsatisfied with their newly achieved peace, and against the will of the Mursaat, made an attempt to assassinate the Charr leaders….. and although they were successful, the Charr army closed in upon them shortly afterward, seemingly sealing their fate.

This is completely wrong. I’ve just reviewed the Rise of the White Mantle mission, and:

1) Kryta was definitely NOT at peace at the time. The mission starts with defending a village that was under attack by the charr.

2) There is no indication that the mursaat disapproved of the plan to assassinate the charr leaders. In fact, if anything, it seems that this is the only time that the mursaat actually played a direct part in fighting against the charr – forming the White Mantle, rallying the people of Kryta, and keeping the charr at bay up to that point was all Saul’s doing with no direct assistance from the mursaat.

Regarding the rest:

As you may have noticed, the question of whether killing others to help yourself is a neutral or evil act is a highly controversial moral question. Personally, I consider it to be evil. At the risk of Godwinning the thread, looking to wipe out every member of the population with a certain characteristic because you believe they might pose a threat to you was an action that historically led to the leaders that did so being declared as the worst of villains in human history.

Arguably the mursaat had better reason to believe the Chosen were a threat, but… as people noted above, it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. If the mursaat had done nothing, they would not have triggered the conditions under which the Prophecies had occurred. They did also make for complex villains – they did, for instance, have enough scruple not to simply let the charr destroy Kryta (although they may have realised that the charr army that went to Kryta did not actually have the strength to defeat Kryta once Kryta got organised – Saul accelerated the organisation but if he hadn’t done it likely someone else would have stepped up, and while that delay would have allowed the charr to push further, at the time most of the important sites in Kryta were further south… and there’s no evidence that the Krytan charr army had Cauldrons. Its purpose seemed mainly as a diversion to prevent Kryta from sending aid to Ascalon or Orr).

However, somebody with a less ruthless attitude to the lives of others would have sought another way. Consider, if the promise to train the Chosen in magic had not been a lie, the mursaat could have turned those Chosen that they were able to find into allies, and may have avoided the scenario where a group of Chosen slipped under their radar, discovered the sacrifices, and went on the warpath.

You certainly can’t say the White Mantle were bad while the mursaat were good. The Mantle was following, directly or indirectly, the mandate of the mursaat – while “following orders” is not regarded as an excuse, culpability is also held by those who gave the orders.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

>Mursaat
>Allies

I don’t want to be allies with the very race that backstabbed everyone else the last time the dragons awoke.

What are you even talking about?

The last time the dragons awoke as in the time before this current dragon apocalypse, as in before the humans came here.

The Seers proposed the idea of sealing away all magic into blood stones in an attempt to starve the dragons. The Mursaat had found an alternate method via escaping into the mists leaving dwarvs, jotun, char, seers, you name it to fend for themselves.

The Mursaat left everyone to die, returned and almost obliterated the Seers.

No offense but this is almost as absurd as Abaddon being some kind of anti hero batman all along.

draxynnic.3719:

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The obvious has been wrong before.

It’s entirely possible that this is a redesign of the mursaat, but on the other hand, it could be djinns, a redesign of Enchanted, a revelation that the Enchanted had actually been powered by djinns all along and we just didn’t see it. There are other possibilities.

Regarding the symbol – it certainly does have similarities in design to the White Mantle symbol and the bandit scrawls. However, I haven’t been able to find any other symbol that exactly matches it, and there are other symbols that are similar to it that we know darn well would be out of place in that region (the Flame Legion symbol and the Kurzick symbol both have similarities in design influences) and while the ten radiating spikes on the symbol certainly seem reminiscent of the old mursaat design, they certainly do not match the single pair of tendrils we see in the trailer.

It’s a fairly abstract symbol. A winged humanoid could also be a reference to Dwayna, with the city belonging to a people dedicated to the gods. From a different perspective, the winged humanoid part of the symbol could also be the top of a dragon’s head with the snout pointing down – the symbol could actually be a reference to Glint.

Regarding the colour of the architecture: It doesn’t match the purple that we saw of mursaat architecture in GW1, but that might not be important. The story of Saul does talk about him seeing a golden city, after all, so it could be simply that the mursaat choose to use different materials for their homes than for their military installations.

On the other hand, though, we’ve already seen that a golden transmutation is associated with the Forgotten. As mentioned above, what we’re seeing could be a redesign of the Enchanted showing what’s powering the armour rather than leaving it invisible – the similarity between the design of the Enchanted and of the armour of the mursaat is one that has been observed before.

Not only do they have the primary features of mursaat (floating slightly off the ground, featherlike back thingies), they’re also meguuma which is the main region we experience the mursaat.

This is exactly like all the ‘loremasters’ absolutely convincing themselves that there was no conceivable way the sylvari could be freed dragon minions.

Mursaat were not from maguuma, there were seers before their total annihilation there as well as the forgotten.

Mursaat were from the north, in the isles of janthir. Its like saying Caucasians are native to north america.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Mursaat were not from maguuma, there were seers before their total annihilation there as well as the forgotten.

Mursaat were from the north, in the isles of janthir. Its like saying Caucasians are native to north america.

But they’re associated with Meguuma. You think of Fargo when you think North Dakota.

anyways, I’m sticking with the Sylvari comparison. Standing forum bet that it’s the mursaat.

draxynnic.3719:

This is completely wrong. I’ve just reviewed the Rise of the White Mantle mission, and:

1) Kryta was definitely NOT at peace at the time. The mission starts with defending a village that was under attack by the charr.

2) There is no indication that the mursaat disapproved of the plan to assassinate the charr leaders. In fact, if anything, it seems that this is the only time that the mursaat actually played a direct part in fighting against the charr – forming the White Mantle, rallying the people of Kryta, and keeping the charr at bay up to that point was all Saul’s doing with no direct assistance from the mursaat.

Regarding the rest:

As you may have noticed, the question of whether killing others to help yourself is a neutral or evil act is a highly controversial moral question. Personally, I consider it to be evil. At the risk of Godwinning the thread, looking to wipe out every member of the population with a certain characteristic because you believe they might pose a threat to you was an action that historically led to the leaders that did so being declared as the worst of villains in human history.

Arguably the mursaat had better reason to believe the Chosen were a threat, but… as people noted above, it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. If the mursaat had done nothing, they would not have triggered the conditions under which the Prophecies had occurred. They did also make for complex villains – they did, for instance, have enough scruple not to simply let the charr destroy Kryta (although they may have realised that the charr army that went to Kryta did not actually have the strength to defeat Kryta once Kryta got organised – Saul accelerated the organisation but if he hadn’t done it likely someone else would have stepped up, and while that delay would have allowed the charr to push further, at the time most of the important sites in Kryta were further south… and there’s no evidence that the Krytan charr army had Cauldrons. Its purpose seemed mainly as a diversion to prevent Kryta from sending aid to Ascalon or Orr).

However, somebody with a less ruthless attitude to the lives of others would have sought another way. Consider, if the promise to train the Chosen in magic had not been a lie, the mursaat could have turned those Chosen that they were able to find into allies, and may have avoided the scenario where a group of Chosen slipped under their radar, discovered the sacrifices, and went on the warpath.

You certainly can’t say the White Mantle were bad while the mursaat were good. The Mantle was following, directly or indirectly, the mandate of the mursaat – while “following orders” is not regarded as an excuse, culpability is also held by those who gave the orders.

Are you still arguing that Kryta could defend themselves from the Charr when their king already ran away?

The Charr already defeated Orr without any cauldron, even without Cataclysm, Orr would have been wiped out. How is Kryta haveing any chances? We saw even with Saul’s effort, they are still no match for the Charr if the Mursaat hadn’t shown up.

Saul D’Alessio: “Friends, the time of retribution is at hand. We must pray to our gods. They will decide whether we live or die.”

Also, it was Saul who asked for help and said they will decide the fate.

The problem is that they need these souls to power the battery to keep the seal, otherwise the Titan would run out.

I won’t discount it being the mursaat though I will have my opinion of being allies with the very people who punked out like cowards after the previous rise of the dragons.

I don’t see how they can be of any help, all they know how to do is run away and cherry pick on races after they’re spent against the dragons.