Guild Wars 2

He’s a customer so he can demand everything he wants from this company. It’s their choice if they want his money and listen to him or not.

And… are you most devs? Because I dont know why you are talking about other ppl. Speak for yourself only.

rotten.9753:

Blaeys.3102:

I would rather they abandon the idea of rambling dungeons that pull people out of the main game for extended periods of time and, instead, focus on smaller, more challenging instanced content (single fights instanced for 5 players).

Not only would it be more fun, but it would a more sustainable model – allowing them to add in challenging 5 person content quicker thank the dungeon model does now.

As for whether dungeons will be a part of HOT, it is pure speculation, but I believe the focus for 5 person parties will be heavily on Fractals rather than dungeons. I dont think we will see new dungeons, but I do think major additions to fractals may be a reality.

If their ideas are similar to the one which results we have seen in fractured update, I’d rather not see any additions.

Well, one of the masteries shown in yesterday’s beta was Fractal mastery. No info about it, but it was there long with Precursor crafting mastery. So we will see something new with fractals. Hopefully it’s more than just raising the levels and making us need more AR.

Ashen.2907:

Although it could have been expressed differently the OP’s post is one of the best forms of feedback a company can get from a paying customer:

“I will not continue to buy your product unless it includes X.”

Except they lie.

It might not be intentional, but players pull this all the freaking time, and then they’re back complaining after whatever they said they were going to quit over or were going to not buy.

Now he might think he’s serious, but anyone who’s spent any time on game forums knows the pattern very well.

That’s why I called it blackmail (which I kind of regret, it’s a bit harsh), he’s trying to leverage something with a threat, and it’s a threat that he likely won’t follow up on. Developers can’t listen to random posts like that individually they’d never get anything changed or done ever.

If there’s a true groundswell sure, but in this case it’s just one naked threat.

Windsagio.1340:

Ashen.2907:

Although it could have been expressed differently the OP’s post is one of the best forms of feedback a company can get from a paying customer:

“I will not continue to buy your product unless it includes X.”

Except they lie.

It might not be intentional, but players pull this all the freaking time, and then they’re back complaining after whatever they said they were going to quit over or were going to not buy.

Now he might think he’s serious, but anyone who’s spent any time on game forums knows the pattern very well.

That’s why I called it blackmail (which I kind of regret, it’s a bit harsh), he’s trying to leverage something with a threat, and it’s a threat that he likely won’t follow up on. Developers can’t listen to random posts like that individually they’d never get anything changed or done ever.

If there’s a true groundswell sure, but in this case it’s just one naked threat.

“I am willing to spend money on your product if it includes X, but not if it doesn’t is not a threat. It may not turn out to be accurate either. It is entirely possible that once the OP sees a finished HOT he will discover that elements of it are sufficient to change his mind. Even so the basic feedback of, “more dungeons = more of my money,” is exactly the sort of feedback that companies actually pay to get.

Ashen.2907:

Windsagio.1340:

Ashen.2907:

Although it could have been expressed differently the OP’s post is one of the best forms of feedback a company can get from a paying customer:

“I will not continue to buy your product unless it includes X.”

Except they lie.

It might not be intentional, but players pull this all the freaking time, and then they’re back complaining after whatever they said they were going to quit over or were going to not buy.

Now he might think he’s serious, but anyone who’s spent any time on game forums knows the pattern very well.

That’s why I called it blackmail (which I kind of regret, it’s a bit harsh), he’s trying to leverage something with a threat, and it’s a threat that he likely won’t follow up on. Developers can’t listen to random posts like that individually they’d never get anything changed or done ever.

If there’s a true groundswell sure, but in this case it’s just one naked threat.

“I am willing to spend money on your product if it includes X, but not if it doesn’t is not a threat. It may not turn out to be accurate either. It is entirely possible that once the OP sees a finished HOT he will discover that elements of it are sufficient to change his mind. Even so the basic feedback of, “more dungeons = more of my money,” is exactly the sort of feedback that companies actually pay to get.

Read the title, it’s framed as a threat “NO DUNGEONS NO CASH”

I suspect they know that there are some folks on here that are really mad about the lack of dungeon content anyways :p

Bandit.8279:

You obviously haven’t done Living Story Season 2 and it’s achievements. Some of the more enjoyable and challenging things I’ve done in gw2 for some time. You’re missing out if challenge is what you seek.

Even if they were challenging (they were not), they are not repeatable. You need repeatability for retention.

What they need is a revamp to the AI of enemies.

I wonder what the game would be like if AI behavior was different every day.
Like at one point We get lupi using a staff and using different staff skills, Then the next day we get a lupi that uses sword and mesmer skills.

Something to keep encounters fresh.
To have AI use tactics and combo off of each other vs the run and gun AI we have now.

They can add 3 new dungeons every year, but every year we will have the same group of hardcore people mastering every new dungeon and invalidating the work with easy runs.

Lets change the way enemies work first before we just introduce more crappy stack and burst dungeons.
That will be mastered and farmed for the first month.

rhapsody.3615:

Well, one of the masteries shown in yesterday’s beta was Fractal mastery. No info about it, but it was there long with Precursor crafting mastery. So we will see something new with fractals. Hopefully it’s more than just raising the levels and making us need more AR.

Masteries will not help if the reward structure is not completely reworked. Besides, masteries will probably be like AR except it’s account based, not gear based. Once you get a certain mastery, the game becomes easy enough (like this bark skin effect).

Right now, masteries (at least maguuma ones, since some of them are already implemented) are a simple non-gear wall. You cannot kill an enemy as long as you don’t farm enough points and xp and then this enemy is killable. If anet puts their hope in this system, I seriously fear for this game so-called end-game progression.

Solori.6025:

What they need is a revamp to the AI of enemies.

I wonder what the game would be like if AI behavior was different every day.
Like at one point We get lupi using a staff and using different staff skills, Then the next day we get a lupi that uses sword and mesmer skills.

Something to keep encounters fresh.
To have AI use tactics and combo off of each other vs the run and gun AI we have now.

They can add 3 new dungeons every year, but every year we will have the same group of hardcore people mastering every new dungeon and invalidating the work with easy runs.

Lets change the way enemies work first before we just introduce more crappy stack and burst dungeons.
That will be mastered and farmed for the first month.

You know what’s fun? Having Mai Trin run directly away from all the players just to get out of the lightning field

rotten.9753:

rhapsody.3615:

Well, one of the masteries shown in yesterday’s beta was Fractal mastery. No info about it, but it was there long with Precursor crafting mastery. So we will see something new with fractals. Hopefully it’s more than just raising the levels and making us need more AR.

Masteries will not help if the reward structure is not completely reworked. Besides, masteries will probably be like AR except it’s account based, not gear based. Once you get a certain mastery, the game becomes easy enough (like this bark skin effect).

Right now, masteries (at least maguuma ones, since some of them are already implemented) are a simple non-gear wall. You cannot kill an enemy as long as you don’t farm enough points and xp and then this enemy is killable. If anet puts their hope in this system, I seriously fear for this game so-called end-game progression.

Well yeah, they’re not ‘endgame progression’, they’re content gating. Very different concepts.

The bark ripping thing is (to my understanding of the skill) as much of a content gate as hang-gliding or mushroom bouncing is, or as much as the “you need to have X lore mastery to enter the challenge of the Gods!!!”.

Windsagio.1340:

pickpocket.2071:

I am someone who has spent over $1000 in the gem shop and have been a strong supporter of gw2 since head start, however if there are no new dungeons released in this expansion i will not be supporting this company any further. I will not buy the expansion or purchase anything from the gem store again.
I’m also pretty sure this is my first post i’ve made and i know of a lot of other people with the same mindset of myself who don’t bother to post in these forums.

GLHF pressing 11111 with your boring living story zombie key mashers

I like people trying to blackmail developers.

Can’t help but feel that blackmail is the wrong word. Misguided threat, sure, but blackmail? naw he’s just threatening to stop paying them, he’s not holding some dirty secret over their head or anything.

I agree though posts like this likely mean very little, but, I do think there are a lot of us that are in “wait and see” mode right now hoping that something will pop up from HOT that makes us want to get it. Right now, really nothing. It seems quite bland, and my faith in their ability to make challenging content outside of instances isn’t very high, not because of they themselves but because I’ve yet to see any game overcome the zerg situation. GW2 in fact does it the best, but still fails at it. So what will this “challenging group content” be? They’re keeping their mouths pretty tight on the subject, which just worries me more (always the pessimist) as if it were good I’d be talking about it, showing previews, getting the hype up and all the players like the OP off my back.

Windsagio.1340:

rotten.9753:

rhapsody.3615:

Well, one of the masteries shown in yesterday’s beta was Fractal mastery. No info about it, but it was there long with Precursor crafting mastery. So we will see something new with fractals. Hopefully it’s more than just raising the levels and making us need more AR.

Masteries will not help if the reward structure is not completely reworked. Besides, masteries will probably be like AR except it’s account based, not gear based. Once you get a certain mastery, the game becomes easy enough (like this bark skin effect).

Right now, masteries (at least maguuma ones, since some of them are already implemented) are a simple non-gear wall. You cannot kill an enemy as long as you don’t farm enough points and xp and then this enemy is killable. If anet puts their hope in this system, I seriously fear for this game so-called end-game progression.

Well yeah, they’re not ‘endgame progression’, they’re content gating. Very different concepts.

The bark ripping thing is (to my understanding of the skill) as much of a content gate as hang-gliding or mushroom bouncing is, or as much as the “you need to have X lore mastery to enter the challenge of the Gods!!!”.

Return of the good ol’ timesink… GW2s successful avoidance of that was one of the things that pulled me in to start, sad to see them abandon it in favor of easier/cheaper design of artificial time sinks.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

rotten.9753:

rhapsody.3615:

Well, one of the masteries shown in yesterday’s beta was Fractal mastery. No info about it, but it was there long with Precursor crafting mastery. So we will see something new with fractals. Hopefully it’s more than just raising the levels and making us need more AR.

Masteries will not help if the reward structure is not completely reworked. Besides, masteries will probably be like AR except it’s account based, not gear based. Once you get a certain mastery, the game becomes easy enough (like this bark skin effect).

Right now, masteries (at least maguuma ones, since some of them are already implemented) are a simple non-gear wall. You cannot kill an enemy as long as you don’t farm enough points and xp and then this enemy is killable. If anet puts their hope in this system, I seriously fear for this game so-called end-game progression.

Well yeah, they’re not ‘endgame progression’, they’re content gating. Very different concepts.

The bark ripping thing is (to my understanding of the skill) as much of a content gate as hang-gliding or mushroom bouncing is, or as much as the “you need to have X lore mastery to enter the challenge of the Gods!!!”.

Return of the good ol’ timesink… GW2s successful avoidance of that was one of the things that pulled me in to start, sad to see them abandon it in favor of easier/cheaper design of artificial time sinks.

I’m okay with this one because it’s directed. Not having resets hurts some, but if there’s something you really wanna do you can do it quickly. It takes a while to do everything, but I like picking the order.

@Your other post, you’re very right blackmail is a bad word, I’m gonna nuke the post

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

rotten.9753:

rhapsody.3615:

Well, one of the masteries shown in yesterday’s beta was Fractal mastery. No info about it, but it was there long with Precursor crafting mastery. So we will see something new with fractals. Hopefully it’s more than just raising the levels and making us need more AR.

Masteries will not help if the reward structure is not completely reworked. Besides, masteries will probably be like AR except it’s account based, not gear based. Once you get a certain mastery, the game becomes easy enough (like this bark skin effect).

Right now, masteries (at least maguuma ones, since some of them are already implemented) are a simple non-gear wall. You cannot kill an enemy as long as you don’t farm enough points and xp and then this enemy is killable. If anet puts their hope in this system, I seriously fear for this game so-called end-game progression.

Well yeah, they’re not ‘endgame progression’, they’re content gating. Very different concepts.

The bark ripping thing is (to my understanding of the skill) as much of a content gate as hang-gliding or mushroom bouncing is, or as much as the “you need to have X lore mastery to enter the challenge of the Gods!!!”.

Return of the good ol’ timesink… GW2s successful avoidance of that was one of the things that pulled me in to start, sad to see them abandon it in favor of easier/cheaper design of artificial time sinks.

I’m okay with this one because it’s directed. Not having resets hurts some, but if there’s something you really wanna do you can do it quickly. It takes a while to do everything, but I like picking the order.

@Your other post, you’re very right blackmail is a bad word, I’m gonna nuke the post

It’s still going back on one of their core steps forward as a different type of MMO. Even if “it’s ok because…<insert excuse here>” you’re still going against this really good idea. That we should play stuff because it’s fun, not because we’re having our arms twisted and told we have to in order to get to see other stuff we might want to do.

I’d point out that ANet themselves felt the need to emphasize the “no grind” point repeatedly when they were first announcing it. They knew full well that they were putting in an artificial time sink to extend the life of the content. I’m sure they’re trying to convince themselves as much as they’re trying to convince us that it isn’t, but we all know what it is.

@OP

ANet is very thankful for your decision to dump hundreds of dollars in their game. It is in fact so much money that they will accept your bailing out of GW2.

@ANet

The metrix god told you that dungeons are not worth it. Spending all the money you get from people that like dungeons and even more to create dungeons? Why. The metrix god demands more open world content. And fluff, that players can buy in the gem store to look cool. And an NPE for the NPE, as the metrix god trolled you on that one…

Sorel.4870:

1000$? Isn’t that a bit much for a video game? Frankly, if you like the game that much, paying something like 50$ for an expansion might be worth it. But hey, do as you want.

Perhaps he could just straight up pay ArenaNet to develop a dungeon!

Player-funded requests. The future for MMOs. You heard it here first.

So, now I’m throwing money at my screen. Where’s my Cantha?

Windsagio.1340:

Well yeah, they’re not ‘endgame progression’, they’re content gating. Very different concepts.

The bark ripping thing is (to my understanding of the skill) as much of a content gate as hang-gliding or mushroom bouncing is, or as much as the “you need to have X lore mastery to enter the challenge of the Gods!!!”.

But they are sold to us as their new approach to end-game progression.

Kind of hard to take “dungeons are serious business bro!” comments seriously when there are videos of people soloing almost all of them naked (sure, it takes skill to do that, but it still says something about how challenging they are in a full group with armor on)

Besides you get new fractals, so just down a 12 pack of keystone before you start playing like you usually do, and pretend its a new dungeon

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

rotten.9753:

rhapsody.3615:

Well, one of the masteries shown in yesterday’s beta was Fractal mastery. No info about it, but it was there long with Precursor crafting mastery. So we will see something new with fractals. Hopefully it’s more than just raising the levels and making us need more AR.

Masteries will not help if the reward structure is not completely reworked. Besides, masteries will probably be like AR except it’s account based, not gear based. Once you get a certain mastery, the game becomes easy enough (like this bark skin effect).

Right now, masteries (at least maguuma ones, since some of them are already implemented) are a simple non-gear wall. You cannot kill an enemy as long as you don’t farm enough points and xp and then this enemy is killable. If anet puts their hope in this system, I seriously fear for this game so-called end-game progression.

Well yeah, they’re not ‘endgame progression’, they’re content gating. Very different concepts.

The bark ripping thing is (to my understanding of the skill) as much of a content gate as hang-gliding or mushroom bouncing is, or as much as the “you need to have X lore mastery to enter the challenge of the Gods!!!”.

Return of the good ol’ timesink… GW2s successful avoidance of that was one of the things that pulled me in to start, sad to see them abandon it in favor of easier/cheaper design of artificial time sinks.

Its that or they release content that isnt time gated, people beat it all within 2 hours of its release, and head straight to the forums to complain about how there isnt enough content

Both options kind of suck, but at least the way theyre going the forums will be a little neater.

rotten.9753:

Windsagio.1340:

Well yeah, they’re not ‘endgame progression’, they’re content gating. Very different concepts.

The bark ripping thing is (to my understanding of the skill) as much of a content gate as hang-gliding or mushroom bouncing is, or as much as the “you need to have X lore mastery to enter the challenge of the Gods!!!”.

But they are sold to us as their new approach to end-game progression.

They’re trying to present it in a way you guys will find pleasing

Edit: No that’s not really fair. It is progression, with content gates at various points in the progression.

What it isn’t is endgame progression as understood in the usual MMO context

Sizer.5632:

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

rotten.9753:

rhapsody.3615:

Well, one of the masteries shown in yesterday’s beta was Fractal mastery. No info about it, but it was there long with Precursor crafting mastery. So we will see something new with fractals. Hopefully it’s more than just raising the levels and making us need more AR.

Masteries will not help if the reward structure is not completely reworked. Besides, masteries will probably be like AR except it’s account based, not gear based. Once you get a certain mastery, the game becomes easy enough (like this bark skin effect).

Right now, masteries (at least maguuma ones, since some of them are already implemented) are a simple non-gear wall. You cannot kill an enemy as long as you don’t farm enough points and xp and then this enemy is killable. If anet puts their hope in this system, I seriously fear for this game so-called end-game progression.

Well yeah, they’re not ‘endgame progression’, they’re content gating. Very different concepts.

The bark ripping thing is (to my understanding of the skill) as much of a content gate as hang-gliding or mushroom bouncing is, or as much as the “you need to have X lore mastery to enter the challenge of the Gods!!!”.

Return of the good ol’ timesink… GW2s successful avoidance of that was one of the things that pulled me in to start, sad to see them abandon it in favor of easier/cheaper design of artificial time sinks.

Its that or they release content that isnt time gated, people beat it all within 2 hours of its release, and head straight to the forums to complain about how there isnt enough content

Both options kind of suck, but at least the way theyre going the forums will be a little neater.

Pretty terribly designed content then if you ask me.

That’s the whole thing, if they feel the need to put this time gating in, well, how good will the content be? Are they that worried it won’t hold players on it’s own?

I’d say ANet is capable of making good content though… I mean I’ve been here playing hte same content for how long now? It’s certainly possible to make content that has staying power.

@ Windsagio, it’s basically the same thing as Keying raids back in EQ, jump over X and gain access to Y, grind out Y to gain access to Z…

Jerus, honestly it’s presentation and attitude.

Giving players something aspirational in the endgame drives retention. In most MMO’s that’s gear upgrades to beat harder content.

In current GW2 it’s pretty lacking, you have mostly meaningless ascended gear and a legendary in pve, but that’s really it (PvP and WvW have somewhat more aspirational progression tracks).

GW2 is committed heavily to no (meaningful) gear progression, but titles aren’t really meaningful progression to most people.

To be meaningful the progression has to have real game effects. If it’s instant there’s no sense of progression.

I use the mitigating terms because they’re faced with somewhat conflicting goals/values, and I think this is a pretty good compromise solution.

I understand what it is very well. I ran the treadmill for years in other games. They’re bringing the carrot on a stick back. You can dress it up with pretty words but that’s what’s happening. It’s just a bit disappointing as someone that was a huge fan of that change.

Jerus.4350:

I understand what it is very well. I ran the treadmill for years in other games. They’re bringing the carrot on a stick back. You can dress it up with pretty words but that’s what’s happening. It’s just a bit disappointing as someone that was a huge fan of that change.

Except, and correct me where I’m misinterpreting that, the natural (not even reducto) conclusion of your position is all access to everything immediately.

I’m all about having htings to work for even if they’re dumb. What I don’t like is feeling I have to work for one particular thing or another.

Sizer.5632:

Kind of hard to take “dungeons are serious business bro!” comments seriously when there are videos of people soloing almost all of them naked (sure, it takes skill to do that, but it still says something about how challenging they are in a full group with armor on)

Vids please. Or is this a hyperbole?

Besides you get new fractals, so just down a 12 pack of keystone before you start playing like you usually do, and pretend its a new dungeon

Source?

Sizer.5632:

Its that or they release content that isnt time gated, people beat it all within 2 hours of its release, and head straight to the forums to complain about how there isnt enough content

Both options kind of suck, but at least the way theyre going the forums will be a little neater.

If a company works on an mmo expansion for at least 1 year (usually 2) and people beat its content within 2 hours, there’s something wrong with the content.

Windsagio.1340:

Except, and correct me where I’m misinterpreting that, the natural (not even reducto) conclusion of your position is all access to everything immediately.

I’m all about having htings to work for even if they’re dumb. What I don’t like is feeling I have to work for one particular thing or another.

It’s far from “access to everything immediately”. It’s more about encountering a boss for the first time and have a chance to beat him (mechanically)..

rotten.9753:

Windsagio.1340:

Except, and correct me where I’m misinterpreting that, the natural (not even reducto) conclusion of your position is all access to everything immediately.

I’m all about having htings to work for even if they’re dumb. What I don’t like is feeling I have to work for one particular thing or another.

It’s far from “access to everything immediately”. It’s more about encountering a boss for the first time and have a chance to beat him (mechanically)..

I’m curious if that’s actually true. Wouldn’t it be cute if it were extremely difficult (extremely) but possible without the mastery?

Not likely I admit, but I suspect it would please folks ><

Content gates are pretty universal, and GW2 has always had them. There are content gates in the mastery system, and they’re less restrictive than the prior ones. I’m not sure why it’s such a great betrayal.

What is hilarious is seeing players in this game mashing their 13 buttons and pretending to be elite. There’s nothing hard about GW2 and there isn’t supposed to be so whether or not you’re running dungeons or open world it all boils down to how many players are just sitting there on auto attack and how many are actually hitting all 13 buttons.

Muusic.2967:

What is hilarious is seeing players in this game mashing their 13 buttons and pretending to be elite. There’s nothing hard about GW2 and there isn’t supposed to be so whether or not you’re running dungeons or open world it all boils down to how many players are just sitting there on auto attack and how many are actually hitting all 13 buttons.

High level pvp is hard.

High level fractals, if not hard, are tricky.

pickpocket.2071:

I am someone who has spent over $1000 in the gem shop and have been a strong supporter of gw2 since head start, however if there are no new dungeons released in this expansion i will not be supporting this company any further. I will not buy the expansion or purchase anything from the gem store again.
I’m also pretty sure this is my first post i’ve made and i know of a lot of other people with the same mindset of myself who don’t bother to post in these forums.

GLHF pressing 11111 with your boring living story zombie key mashers

Gee A.net I think you ought to seriously consider adding dungeons to HoT because we wouldn’t want to lose Mr. pickpocket here. He’s the most important person in this community because he’s spent $1,000 in the gem store and has been a STRONG supporter to your game!

OK, going back to pressing 11111.

Since some are putting in their requests for more of this and that, how about adding mounts sometime soon? One thing I hate is trying to simply farm some weeds, ore or trees and always having to run from one to the next and fight constantly with mobs just to pick one flower. Or maybe I get killed in a group event and have to WP then run back. A mount would help me get back into the action faster. Running all the time reminds me of sitting in rush hour traffic. It take a while to go so little distance.

IF we are given new dungeons in their current form I could care less.

Stacking and spanking once you all know where to stand is beyond boring to say the least IMO. Stealthing past all the lessor or trash mobs becomes the rule and not the exception once the dungeon is repeated ad nausium.

If Anet can put such emphasis on the RNG in other areas of the game they should do it here also. As for me, I don’t do many dungeons anymore, but if I did I would prefer they adjust the way they are done before they added in more of the same.

As for quitting if they don’t add something you want, that is your option. However, many of the twists and turns they have done since release (unskippable cut scenes.. BAH) have made me upset too. I just try to tell myself though that they are trying to please more than just the few and eventually some of us might get what we wanted.

rotten.9753:

Sizer.5632:

Its that or they release content that isnt time gated, people beat it all within 2 hours of its release, and head straight to the forums to complain about how there isnt enough content

Both options kind of suck, but at least the way theyre going the forums will be a little neater.

If a company works on an mmo expansion for at least 1 year (usually 2) and people beat its content within 2 hours, there’s something wrong with the content.

It takes a week of work to make a 1/2hour episode of the Simpsons (or any TV show, really). And “beat” by killing the “end-boss” is by no means completing all the content within an expansion. For this expansion, getting all the Masteries, unlocking all the Specializations, exploring the new zones, getting the new achievements, etc. that will all take at least a month (and that is just rushing it obsessively as possible).

Windsagio.1340:

I’m curious if that’s actually true. Wouldn’t it be cute if it were extremely difficult (extremely) but possible without the mastery?

Not likely I admit, but I suspect it would please folks ><

Content gates are pretty universal, and GW2 has always had them. There are content gates in the mastery system, and they’re less restrictive than the prior ones. I’m not sure why it’s such a great betrayal.

The mastery says it’s invulnerable.

Siphaed.9235:

It takes a week of work to make a 1/2hour episode of the Simpsons (or any TV show, really). And “beat” by killing the “end-boss” is by no means completing all the content within an expansion. For this expansion, getting all the Masteries, unlocking all the Specializations, exploring the new zones, getting the new achievements, etc. that will all take at least a month (and that is just rushing it obsessively as possible).

Exactly, They shouldn’t need to time gate their content.

So it’s a suggested variation

rotten.9753:

He’s correct. Open world content doesn’t require anything more than using just your autoattacks from a safe distance and dodging occasionally.

The unspoken caveat to what you’re saying there is exactly the same as the unspoken caveat to “there is no dungeon in Guild Wars 2 that is not faceroll easymode”.

This is what someone saw when they tried to measure DPS in a Silverwastes boss fight. (note old thread, please don’t necro).

That looks like the 80-20 rule at work to me. Or, essentially, what’s going on when you use that sort of “easy” tactic for many open world fights is no different to having one good player carry four bads through a dungeon.

Obviously, some open world content is meant to be easy, but that doesn’t apply to all of it. And one of the few places where 80/20 didn’t work, of course, was the Twisted Marionette — exactly the sort of open world LS content that the OP deems a waste of time and resources.

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

I understand what it is very well. I ran the treadmill for years in other games. They’re bringing the carrot on a stick back. You can dress it up with pretty words but that’s what’s happening. It’s just a bit disappointing as someone that was a huge fan of that change.

Except, and correct me where I’m misinterpreting that, the natural (not even reducto) conclusion of your position is all access to everything immediately.

I’m all about having htings to work for even if they’re dumb. What I don’t like is feeling I have to work for one particular thing or another.

Naw, progression is a thing, you do a story mode to unlock access to explorable. It’s moer about the grind aspect. It’s one thing to have grind for optional ascetics it’s another to require it for content.

I’m just really concerned that it’s just a slippery slope they’re jumping onto and we’re on our way back to the MMO Treadmill, so it isn’t gear, it’s a rotating carrot on a stick meant to exploit our desire to be set up the best we can be. Also worried about power creep coming with it.

It’s just not a good path, if they can keep things reigned in it might be fine, but at that point I ask what’s the point anyways?

evilunderling.9265:

This is what someone saw when they tried to measure DPS in a Silverwastes boss fight. (note old thread, please don’t necro).

That looks like the 80-20 rule at work to me. Or, in other words, what’s going on is essentially the same thing as one good player carrying four bads through a dungeon. Or, in other words, the unspoken caveat to what you just said is exactly the same as the unspoken caveat to “there is no dungeon in Guild Wars 2 that is not faceroll easymode”.

With the small exception that you won’t be kicked from the open world zone for leeching like that.

The consequences of not putting in the effort for either OW or dungeons doesn’t make the comparison between what is required to do them any less significant. You can be a slacker in OW PVE and get reward .. you can be a slacker in dungeons and get reward too.

The main difference I see is that people have recourse in dungeons to deal with that. In PVE, you don’t. If people couldn’t be kicked in dungeons, the spectrum of slacker/tryhard people in dungeons and OW PVE would be the same.

rotten.9753:

With the small exception that you won’t be kicked from the open world zone for leeching like that.

True, but if one player is carrying four others in a dungeon, they’re not kicking anyone either. The worst they could do is abandon their group, but you can do that in open world too.

The fact that you have some control over who you get in a dungeon is a point in their favour and a good reason to like them, but it doesn’t follow that open world content is inherently faceroll easymode as a result.

Except dungeons are more difficult than open world. In encounter design and the fact that you can only have 5 players and not a zerg.

ps. nice ninja edit.

Obtena.7952:

The consequences of not putting in the effort for either OW or dungeons doesn’t make the comparison between what is required to do them any less significant. You can be a slacker in OW PVE and get reward .. you can be a slacker in dungeons and get reward too.

The main difference I see is that people have recourse in dungeons to deal with that. In PVE, you don’t. If people couldn’t be kicked in dungeons, the spectrum of slacker/tryhard people in dungeons and OW PVE would be the same.

Ehh, I think most people wouldn’t want to be put on the spot as a 1/5 being a leach, though I think you make a good point. There are leaches in dungeons too, it’s just that you don’t have to deal with them. Which is why I think Megaservers and the whole OW system needs to be looked at, forced integration with people you have no desire to play with sucks pretty badly.

spoj.9672:

Except dungeons are more difficult than open world. In encounter design and the fact that you can only have 5 players and not a zerg.

To a point, yes, but the arguments I’m responding to here go a lot further than “dungeons are harder than open world”.

It’s also worth noting that instancing doesn’t always help, at least, not if FFXIV is any indication (although to be fair, these are people getting paired up at random by the LFG tool, and FFXIV has some draconian restrictions on kicking players and abandoning dungeon runs).

Sarie.1630:

Perhaps he could just straight up pay ArenaNet to develop a dungeon!

Player-funded requests. The future for MMOs. You heard it here first.

Actually, a few years ago I publicly offered to fund the creation of some costume items I wanted in Champions Online (a superhero MMO with a very flexible costume engine). The items would be made available to everyone freely. My offer was based off of my best guess of the designer’s time and the approval testing process. A dev even contacted me and said it was a pretty reasonable offer as the items I wanted were very simple.

Players on the boards went insane.

OTOH the discussion did such a good job of wedging the items into the designers’ heads that they did end up making and releasing several of them within 6 months.

Worked out nicely, I’d say .

This has been posted before. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umpR6LhBhW4 starting @4:20 . Anet developers have already come out and stated no new dungeons. No conspiracy, no rumors. There won’t be any dungeons.

Vix.6730:

This has been posted before. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umpR6LhBhW4 starting @4:20 . Anet developers have already come out and stated no new dungeons. No conspiracy, no rumors. There won’t be any dungeons.

If this is the case than, pickpocket can I have the $1,000 worth of stuff you bought at the gem store please? Wouldn’t want to have all that go to waste now would we?

Windsagio.1340:

Read the title, it’s framed as a threat “NO DUNGEONS NO CASH”

I did.

Its not a threat.

Nike.2631:

Sarie.1630:

Perhaps he could just straight up pay ArenaNet to develop a dungeon!

Player-funded requests. The future for MMOs. You heard it here first.

Actually, a few years ago I publicly offered to fund the creation of some costume items I wanted in Champions Online (a superhero MMO with a very flexible costume engine). The items would be made available to everyone freely. My offer was based off of my best guess of the designer’s time and the approval testing process. A dev even contacted me and said it was a pretty reasonable offer as the items I wanted were very simple.

Players on the boards went insane.

OTOH the discussion did such a good job of wedging the items into the designers’ heads that they did end up making and releasing several of them within 6 months.

Worked out nicely, I’d say .

Were you Nike there as well ? I have some vague recollection of something like that.

It’s sad but true, the OP is right about the difference between a 5 person instanced dungeon and open world encounters. You can get away with a whole lot in a zerg doing any open world encounter while you have to pull your weight in a dungeon.

As it has been stated, open world boss fights increase the difficulty in organisation but not really in combat mechanics. And if you think dungeons are easy, then do them with people who have not done them before or are running full PVT+dolyak runes gear (if you think dungeons were easy 2 years ago when you’ve set foot in them last time, you were carried hard).

We should actually get new dungeons (or a set of new fractals) with the expansion because not everyone likes “challenging group content” where it actually does not matter if you are performing to your best ability or not. I realise there has to be such for the masses, but instances are where classes, combos and mechanics shine most in PvE.