Guild Wars 2

Gene Archer.8560:

Nokaru.7831:

Gene Archer.8560:

To this day, there are people that have never seen Invincible from WoTLK, and they’ve been in the game since WoTLK, and doing ICC at every chance.

Oh really? Because Invincible was a guaranteed drop if you defeated the final boss, the Lich King on heroic 25 man. Every person in my raid obtain one, even new recruits. It dropped one per week, guaranteed and it was split amongst a raid of 25 people. After the level cap was raised to 85, the mount’s drop rate was significantly reduced because it could now solo the raid.

So yeah, not sure what your point is. If they were in the game since WoTLK, this is irrelevant if they weren’t actually doing heroic Lich King on 25 man.

Congrats! You had a non-sucky guild!

That aside, my point is that RNG is a cruel mistress.

He just explained to you when you did it as current content (when it was CHALLENGING GROUP CONTENT) then it was a 100% drop rate… You obviously have never been in a progressing raiding guild.. You have no idea what the systems were and even when explained to you you still get it wrong.

And yes, there will be content you like and dislike. This is entirely subjective. There’s no objective solution as long as you’re going to involve “what players want” or “what they think they want”.

The objective solution is to allow players to choose which content, subjectively, appeals most to them.

When designing an MMO, you’re not only about “going with the majority”. Because then the game will cover a smaller and smaller playerbase. There is a need for there to be outliers, so that your world has more depth.

Certainly, but you have to make sure that when you give the minority something that they want, it does not come at the majority’s expense. For example, in this case, if a minority of players want difficult content, you can spend a reasonable amount of time designing it for them, but if they also want exclusive rewards, then no, they should not get that, because those are items that the majority could have instead.

The fact that you say that PvP should be let go because it’s not popular enough is an obvious proof that you have no understanding of how to manage the game.

I’m not necessarily saying that it should go, just that it could and wouldn’t hurt much, and that it should not be used as an excuse to harm the rest of the game, for example nerfing an ability because it is OP in PvP scenarios, when it is not an issue in PvE. Again, I did not raise the issues of PvP, others did, it really isn’t a part of this discussion.

It’s like a legendary weapon, stopped requiring exploration, because not everyone likes that. And instead you can do alot of events to get the Gift of Exploration. Yes it would provide choice, but it would take away the achievement, the expectation and the place of the reward in the world so that the name doesn’t even fit any more. You changed the reward itself into something totally different.

Legendary weapons don’t require exploration, they just require you to farm up gold and buy one off the TP.

Saying all rewards need multiple routes is as sensible as saying every skin has to be pretty.

Every skin does have to be pretty, but of course pretty is a subjective term, and what is pretty to me might not be pretty to you. ANet should never set out to make a skin that they don’t believe will be pretty to anyone.

NO. This is one point of it, TO GET THE SUPER SPECIAL STUFF!

No, you shouldn’t.

Imagine if farming hard mode dungeons gave you slightly different armor sets that had particle effects after you earned them, to show either dedication (farming it slowly) or skill (nailing the runs for quick farms).

Yeah, I am imagining it, which was the point of this thread, that would be awful.

Work for what you want, if you have to dedicate time to earn it, fine.

I’m perfectly fine with that, I just want the method of my work to be of my own choosing. If I am unable or unwilling to do a certain type of work, I should have alternative paths available.

Ohoni.6057:

Certainly, but you have to make sure that when you give the minority something that they want, it does not come at the majority’s expense. For example, in this case, if a minority of players want difficult content, you can spend a reasonable amount of time designing it for them, but if they also want exclusive rewards, then no, they should not get that, because those are items that the majority could have instead.

You people are 2 inches from Communism xD

Ohoni.6057:

NO. This is one point of it, TO GET THE SUPER SPECIAL STUFF!

No, you shouldn’t.

Imagine if farming hard mode dungeons gave you slightly different armor sets that had particle effects after you earned them, to show either dedication (farming it slowly) or skill (nailing the runs for quick farms).

Yeah, I am imagining it, which was the point of this thread, that would be awful.

Work for what you want, if you have to dedicate time to earn it, fine.

I’m perfectly fine with that, I just want the method of my work to be of my own choosing. If I am unable or unwilling to do a certain type of work, I should have alternative paths available.

There should be items gated to certain content… This is just a simple thing, give every aspect of the game solid, nice skins. Not new stats, that’s unfair. New skins gated to content is fair, and brings needed exclusivity to high end players.
If you like a skin enough you will run the stuff and go through it.

PvP already has glorious skins, WvW has mistforged. PvE has a lot of other stuff, world bosses have skins locked to them, fractals has weapons, dungeons had dungeon gear (though it was easy to get) and now, dungeons no longer have their own gear cuz you can get it from pvp.
Basically, hand me a legendary from only farming dungeons and give me all teq skins cuz I don’t want to do anything other than dungeons, cuz its fair right?

And if you want to bring up the “Farm gold, buy legendaries from dungeons” argument, I’ll bring up the “farm gold, by the elite dungeon skins off the TP for 1k gold (till they fall after everyone gets them and they are prestigeless) each” argument.

Coulter.2315:

He just explained to you when you did it as current content

[/quote]
STOP

I never did ICC as current content, nor did I claim that I’ve ever done ICC as current content.

Ohoni.6057:

And yes, there will be content you like and dislike. This is entirely subjective. There’s no objective solution as long as you’re going to involve “what players want” or “what they think they want”.

The objective solution is to allow players to choose which content, subjectively, appeals most to them.

It’s not objective. I explained, you merely don’t quote and ignore it, and you don’t provide any reason why it is objectively the reason. Try again.

When designing an MMO, you’re not only about “going with the majority”. Because then the game will cover a smaller and smaller playerbase. There is a need for there to be outliers, so that your world has more depth.

Certainly, but you have to make sure that when you give the minority something that they want, it does not come at the majority’s expense. For example, in this case, if a minority of players want difficult content, you can spend a reasonable amount of time designing it for them, but if they also want exclusive rewards, then no, they should not get that, because those are items that the majority could have instead.

Again no reason why the hypothetical majority should have exclusive rewards at the expense of the minority. (because that’s what you’re saying.) Also, the game is to provide access to content, not rewards. Rewards are a consequence of playing that content. If you don’t play the content then you don’t get the reward. Game design isn’t based on democracy because it’s a game. And you don’t understand why it is so.

The fact that you say that PvP should be let go because it’s not popular enough is an obvious proof that you have no understanding of how to manage the game.

I’m not necessarily saying that it should go, just that it could and wouldn’t hurt much, and that it should not be used as an excuse to harm the rest of the game, for example nerfing an ability because it is OP in PvP scenarios, when it is not an issue in PvE. Again, I did not raise the issues of PvP, others did, it really isn’t a part of this discussion.

It wouldn’t hurt your experience much, because you don’t like it. You have no perspective into the depth it adds to your game. It provides alternative methods, to some of the rewards in the game. Yet it seems you merely dislike both the methods. While neither of us knows if you’re in a minority or a majority in that case, it should at least make you see that there’s no objective solution as the game design automatically favours the liking of one player over the other. You’re basically saying that any decision made by democratically political powers is always objective.

Also Yes PvP isn’t the point of discussion but it still can provide illustrations to some of the points. And it’s clear that it DOES provide alternate options, and then you totally contradict yourself saying that it can’t hurt to remove the extra options. Which is totally against your “objective solution”. Meaning, that you, who doesn’t like dungeons, needs to do dungeons instead of the PvP reward track. (Yes they could add different acquisition, not the point of what I’m saying) Meaning, that like I said, don’t understand what you’re talking about.

It’s like a legendary weapon, stopped requiring exploration, because not everyone likes that. And instead you can do alot of events to get the Gift of Exploration. Yes it would provide choice, but it would take away the achievement, the expectation and the place of the reward in the world so that the name doesn’t even fit any more. You changed the reward itself into something totally different.

Legendary weapons don’t require exploration, they just require you to farm up gold and buy one off the TP.

They always require exploration. There wouldn’t be any legendary weapons made if at least one person would do the exploration. Meaning, the game would either need to be designed for everyone to like exploration, or it would stay in the hands of a minority who can get filthy rich and control the economy of the game as such.

Saying all rewards need multiple routes is as sensible as saying every skin has to be pretty.

Every skin does have to be pretty, but of course pretty is a subjective term, and what is pretty to me might not be pretty to you. ANet should never set out to make a skin that they don’t believe will be pretty to anyone.

There’s no way of knowing who finds what pretty. Even then, the chances with a population as big as this, there’s always someone who likes a certain skin. Hell, every time they put out a new set they would need to do a poll to see whether they are sure if the majority would like the skin (because that’s what the point you’re making is going to). Again, you do not understand that there needs to be something for everyone. Even the outliers.

NO. This is one point of it, TO GET THE SUPER SPECIAL STUFF!

No, you shouldn’t.

No reason provided. Also subjective. You use shouldn’t, but instead mean, I don’t like you to get the super special stuff. Completely reasonable, as well. But then, you don’t understand it.

Imagine if farming hard mode dungeons gave you slightly different armor sets that had particle effects after you earned them, to show either dedication (farming it slowly) or skill (nailing the runs for quick farms).

Yeah, I am imagining it, which was the point of this thread, that would be awful.

In your opinion.

Work for what you want, if you have to dedicate time to earn it, fine.

I’m perfectly fine with that, I just want the method of my work to be of my own choosing. If I am unable or unwilling to do a certain type of work, I should have alternative paths available.

You can’t. The game designers choose for you. Every. Single. Game. They provide the methods, you can hate them or love them.

Why are people still arguing?

Everything will be answered this saturday when they reveal challenging content…

I’ll have my popcorn ready when ohoni and his gang start a thread bashing anet for putting in exclusive rewards to the new challenging content

Gene Archer.8560:

Coulter.2315:

He just explained to you when you did it as current content

STOP

I never did ICC as current content, nor did I claim that I’ve ever done ICC as current content.[/quote]

So why are you bringing up RNG when it was a 100% drop rate? Your selective quoting really shows your weakness and lack of understanding about everything YOU brought up. No one mentioned Invincible until YOU brought it up..

Coulter.2315:

Gene Archer.8560:

Coulter.2315:

He just explained to you when you did it as current content

STOP

I never did ICC as current content, nor did I claim that I’ve ever done ICC as current content.

So why are you bringing up RNG when it was a 100% drop rate?[/quote]

Because it currently is an RNG drop, and that’s how I knew it, and that’s how I saw people talk about in game and on forums.

Nobody I ever saw or interacted with ever went “Yeah, it was this awesome 100% drop”

I was apparently incorrect to trust that. I’m kittening sorry, okay?

Doesn’t change the fact WoW is a game of RNG. Doesn’t change that the content that I did personally take part in still stuck me with a serious drought. Doesn’t change the fact that all content in MMOs, hard or otherwise, either has massive RNG or massive grind/time sinks because they want either your money or participation, which was my main point when responding to Laokoko.

Would you care to add anything to those points? Or did you just feel like putting on your snark boots to take a pot shot at me?

Gene Archer.8560:

Coulter.2315:

Gene Archer.8560:

Coulter.2315:

He just explained to you when you did it as current content

STOP

I never did ICC as current content, nor did I claim that I’ve ever done ICC as current content.

So why are you bringing up RNG when it was a 100% drop rate?

Because it currently is an RNG drop, and that’s how I knew it, and that’s how I saw people talk about in game and on forums.

Nobody I ever saw or interacted with ever went “Yeah, it was this awesome 100% drop”

I was apparently incorrect to trust that. I’m kittening sorry, okay?

Doesn’t change the fact WoW is a game of RNG. Doesn’t change that the content that I did personally take part in still stuck me with a serious drought. Doesn’t change the fact that all content in MMOs, hard or otherwise, either has massive RNG or massive grind/time sinks because they want either your money or participation, which was my main point when responding to Laokoko.

Would you care to add anything to those points? Or did you just feel like putting on your snark boots to take a pot shot at me? [/quote]

You brought up Invincible, something that was 100% drop rate as a reward for challenging content and then after it lost its challenge was reduced to RNG specificly to stop it being handed out to everyone and keep its rarity and meaning for those who cleared the content when it was current, but you didn’t know that.

I’m not taking pot shots I’m just keeping the record straight so false information doesn’t taint the argument.

You people are 2 inches from Communism xD

Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t you the one suggesting that everyone else should financially support the high skilled players so that they can get hard mode content and special rewards that they do not pay for?

There should be items gated to certain content…

Only if you can earn them with minimal skill within a couple hours. Anything that takes more than a couple hours or high levels of skill to earn should be available through multiple methods, so that you can spend that large amount of time doing something you enjoy.

This is just a simple thing, give every aspect of the game solid, nice skins.Not new stats, that’s unfair.

I would prefer that they tie armors with +1% stats and generic skins to content than that they tie unique skins with generic stats to specific content. Skins are more important than stats. There is no such thing as “it’s just skins, so it’s ok.”

New skins gated to content is fair, and brings needed exclusivity to high end players.

High end players do not deserve exclusivity, and should not receive it.

PvP already has glorious skins, WvW has mistforged. PvE has a lot of other stuff, world bosses have skins locked to them, fractals has weapons, dungeons had dungeon gear (though it was easy to get) and now, dungeons no longer have their own gear cuz you can get it from pvp.

Yes, ANet has some work ahead of them fixing all that mess, but it’s not impossible.

Basically, hand me a legendary from only farming dungeons and give me all teq skins cuz I don’t want to do anything other than dungeons, cuz its fair right?

Yes, so long as you put in an equivalent amount of work farming dungeons as you would doing those other activities.

Again no reason why the hypothetical majority should have exclusive rewards at the expense of the minority. (because that’s what you’re saying.)

That is very much not what I’m saying, since the entire basis of my proposal is that NOTHING should be exclusive to anyone. Every reward should be available to a wide variety of methods for earning it, allowing a wide variety of playstyles to be capable of rewarding them.

Also, the game is to provide access to content, not rewards. Rewards are a consequence of playing that content. If you don’t play the content then you don’t get the reward. Game design isn’t based on democracy because it’s a game. And you don’t understand why it is so.

That’s all nonsense. Game design is about trying to keep the customers happy and paying. The rewards are where the developers say they are. If they say they are exclusive to specific content, then they are. If they say that they are available via numerous means, then they are. I’m advocating for the latter because I believe it would be better for the game as a whole.

Also Yes PvP isn’t the point of discussion but it still can provide illustrations to some of the points. And it’s clear that it DOES provide alternate options, and then you totally contradict yourself saying that it can’t hurt to remove the extra options. Which is totally against your “objective solution”. Meaning, that you, who doesn’t like dungeons, needs to do dungeons instead of the PvP reward track. (Yes they could add different acquisition, not the point of what I’m saying) Meaning, that like I said, don’t understand what you’re talking about.

I’m not saying that every possible option is necessarily good for the overall health of the game. If maintaining the PvP component wastes more developer resources than it’s worth in terms of active players, then it may not be worth further development, that should not be hard to understand.

There’s no way of knowing who finds what pretty.

It’s pretty much the art department’s job to prove you wrong on that at every possible opportunity.

Even then, the chances with a population as big as this, there’s always someone who likes a certain skin.

Yes, which is exactly why you can’t say “so we can lock this skin up behind exclusive content, nobody will mind anyways,” because every skin will be someone’s favorite.

You can’t. The game designers choose for you. Every. Single. Game. They provide the methods, you can hate them or love them.

Yes, and as these games are an evolving project, if I love them I can praise it, and if I hate them then I can criticize it and push for a change.

Which is what I’m doing here.

Ohoni.6057:

You people are 2 inches from Communism xD

Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t you the one suggesting that everyone else should financially support the high skilled players so that they can get hard mode content and special rewards that they do not pay for?

Oh I get GW2 for free? Awesome! Oh wait.. Consider yourself corrected. (Seriously wtf point were you trying to make?)

Coulter.2315:

I’m not taking pot shots I’m just keeping the record straight so false information doesn’t taint the argument.

No, you are taking pot shots, because you didn’t keep anything straight. Nokaru was the one that corrected the information. You just barged into it and copped an attitude with me when I apparently didn’t respond to Nokaru in a manner that you liked.

Gene Archer.8560:

Coulter.2315:

I’m not taking pot shots I’m just keeping the record straight so false information doesn’t taint the argument.

No, you are taking pot shots, because you didn’t keep anything straight. Nokaru was the one that corrected the information. You just barged into it and copped an attitude with me when I apparently didn’t respond to Nokaru in a manner that you liked.

Exactly, when you are shwon to be wrong you insisted otherwise, which leaves taint in the pool. Your then assessment continued to be in error and you failed to notice the reason Invincible was turn to RNG to specificly STOP everyone from getting it – which pertains to the discussion. Now you’re trying to make me out to be “taking potshots” purely to shift the focus from your lack of knowledge in the field we’re discussing while being totally happy to assert things.

I was just correcting the Invincible fact; doesn’t mean everything he said was wrong. There’s no reason to rub it in when somebody makes a mistake. WoW did have some bad RNG. In the first expansion, The Burning Crusade the final boss of Black Temple dropped a set of Legendary weapons called the Warglaives of Azzinoth; independently dropping, extremely low drop rate and very powerful. However, you needed the completed set of both the main hand and the offhand to unlock its full power. From what I remember, it was impossible for both to drop at the same time; if you got the main hand, it meant you would not get an offhand and vice versa. Black Temple was a brutally long instance, and we pretty much ran it for like two years nonstop because those weapons remained the best weapons for the classes that could use them until the end of the expansion.

It was very important to have good gear, the best gear, for when the next tier of raiding came out. For anyone that was in a guild that needed these weapons, they will not think fondly upon them.

Coulter.2315:

Exactly, when you are shwon to be wrong you insisted otherwise, which leaves taint in the pool. Your then assessment continued to be in error and you failed to notice the reason Invincible was turn to RNG to specificly STOP everyone from getting it

For one, Invincible was a side comment at most to the discussion I was having with Laokoko

For the other, that it’s RNG was my point. Yes, due to its original 100% drop rate, it is an incorrect example, but the point itself still stands that hard content in WoW is littered with RNG and low drop rates that can have you farming forever without anything good to show for it.

The Invincible example was incorrect, and I’m saying the point still stands, so here, have some other examples. Don’t worry, I made sure to do my research this time.

Ashes of Alar from TBC. No info found ever detailing it as a guaranteed drop while it was current. Has always had a whopping 2% drop, if not lower.

Or how about Thunderfury from Molten Core? Good luck getting both pieces to create that item. Once again, no information I have found suggests those two pieces were ever a guaranteed drop at any point in time.

There, happy? Care to address my point, yet?

Nokaru.7831:

I was just correcting the Invincible fact; doesn’t mean everything he said was wrong. There’s no reason to rub it in when somebody makes a mistake. WoW did have some bad RNG. In the first expansion, The Burning Crusade the final boss of Black Temple dropped a set of Legendary weapons called the Warglaives of Azzinoth; independently dropping, extremely low drop rate and very powerful. However, you needed the completed set of both the main hand and the offhand to unlock its full power. From what I remember, it was impossible for both to drop at the same time; if you got the main hand, it meant you would not get an offhand and vice versa. Black Temple was a brutally long instance, and we pretty much ran it for like two years nonstop because those weapons remained the best weapons for the classes that could use them until the end of the expansion.

It was very important to have good gear, the best gear, for when the next tier of raiding came out. For anyone that was in a guild that needed these weapons, they will not think fondly upon them.

Please don’t remind me of those things. Until just recently (read: WoD), I mained a Rogue.

Oh I get GW2 for free? Awesome! Oh wait.. Consider yourself corrected. (Seriously wtf point were you trying to make?)

That the high skill players alone do not support this game, that they make up only a small portion of the game’s playerbase, so if you’re pushing for these players to receive content and rewards that are exclusive to them, keep in mind that it’s all the other players who are making that financially possible.

When only the high skill players try to support an MMO, Wildstar happens.

I think it’s time to go away of this thread, after reading that players should finish content on their first try (lol) or “at least the second”. This got to a point that some players do not want to play a game anymore and when new rewards are added they want them handed to them without even trying. I will wait for Saturday but given what Anet has done so far I doubt they will hand over for free any rewards from their Challenging group content.

Because “I want it first try” or even second try is equal to free.

crazycraig.1245:

It is fair, and this everybody deserves everything is one of the biggest problems with this game.

Funny thing that, since i find the exclusivity and elitism to be one of the biggest problems other games have, and i started playing GW2 specifically to avoid it.

But i guess some people just can’t find fun in a game without denying it to others.

Ohoni.6057:

And yes, there will be content you like and dislike. This is entirely subjective. There’s no objective solution as long as you’re going to involve “what players want” or “what they think they want”.

The objective solution is to allow players to choose which content, subjectively, appeals most to them.

That is what they did try, what resulted in the current grindy system (not that only them wanting to allow everybody to get everything is the only reason for that. We already talked how the model was mainly to blame). What many people don’t like.

Also it takes away the value / meaning of the item, again something many people don’t like.

So that are two reasons why it’s a real difference and so you solution is not an objective one. Maybe it’s the most appealing to most of the PvE players left, but imho not to most of the PvE players we will have after HoT gets released. (You know, those who came back after having left because they got bored of the current grind)

I also wonder why you think it appeals to most people. Anet have said themselves they had a huge problem with people leaving the game to soon, that is the main reason for the NPE, while I do not think the NPE is the solution as it was never the problem.

Imho the problem has always been this reward system. You have a game that is all about skins, toys and other fluff then put that behind a boring grind. I think that gets people boring or burned out pretty fast,, That and the fact that the game does have no traditional quest (imho it should have been a mix of events and quests but that another topic) is why people leave to fast.

SkiTz.4590:

Why are people still arguing?

Everything will be answered this saturday when they reveal challenging content…

I’ll have my popcorn ready when ohoni and his gang start a thread bashing anet for putting in exclusive rewards to the new challenging content

The thread is at this moment really talking about rewarding for content in general, what makes sense, as “hard content” is subjective. There is content in the game some people already find challenging.

So I should not be so sure we get an answer about it Saturday. We might hear what the new challenging group content is. And let’s say that means they add 3 guild-raid dungeons (just as an example) they might even say those hold specific unique rewards. it does then not yet say anything about the reward system overall.. Rewards for all the other content in the game.

It might be part of their other big announcements “We are completely redoing the reward system, putting all rewards in the game, every item will rewarded from its own content”, but there is no guarantee for that whatsoever.

People who find it hard to understand why some people can’t stand the currency grind for the items they might want (while not holding true value) should maybe have a look at the series Black Mirror season 1 episode 2.

It perfectly displays the brainless grind for some currency to buy some fluff. Not saying people don’t want the fluff, but showing the overall experience is boring and lifeless.

I might want a game (that is then also what I am willing to buy) and have a fun experience, also getting the fluff.. but the grind is not worth the fluff. The people here asking for a more interesting experience to unlock the fluff are basically represented by the main character in that episode.

So if you really find it hard to understand why some people want something else then the brainless grind, slowly seeing some currency increase to then buy what you want, then I would suggest you watching that. It might also be interesting for some of the Anet staff. Just to place yourself in the world of those people who can’t stand this type of grind.

Astralporing.1957:

crazycraig.1245:

It is fair, and this everybody deserves everything is one of the biggest problems with this game.

Funny thing that, since i find the exclusivity and elitism to be one of the biggest problems other games have, and i started playing GW2 specifically to avoid it.

But i guess some people just can’t find fun in a game without denying it to others.

Funny I don’t remember GW2 not having exclusivity. There were exclusive items in the game since release and they always added new exclusive ones for each new release.

I think it’s time to go away of this thread, after reading that players should finish content on their first try (lol) or “at least the second”.

You’re not keeping things in their proper context. I’m not saying that definitely needs to be the case for all content, but it should be for content that the average player is meant to engage in. If content is meant to be hard enough that you’re intended to fail it many times, then it needs to be a super optional activity, one which you do not need to complete to unlock additional content, and which does not offer any exclusive rewards. It basically needs to be “take it or leave it, totally up to you” content, not “you’d better do this because we’ve got a pretty sweet bribe going on it” content.

Funny thing that, since i find the exclusivity and elitism to be one of the biggest problems other games have, and i started playing GW2 specifically to avoid it.

But i guess some people just can’t find fun in a game without denying it to others.

100%

That is what they did try, what resulted in the current grindy system

No, I dispute that the existing system does this at all well. Yes, there are many things you can buy with gold, but also plenty of things that you cannot, and all of those things are locked behind one method of earning them (or two if they are on the PvP track as well). Also, while many of the items can be bought with gold, there is no non-gold alternative, and I’ve already said I completely dislike the state of the gold economy. There need to be more alternatives that are not based on the TP, methods of earning them through completing content, without interacting in the economy.

Maybe it’s the most appealing to most of the PvE players left, but imho not to most of the PvE players we will have after HoT gets released. (You know, those who came back after having left because they got bored of the current grind)

I dispute the assertion that these players are large in number of significance. I hear on the reddit for this and other games how “so many people got driven off GW2 by the lack of hardcore content and serious gear progression,” but I’ve seen no evidence that these people actually exist in sizable numbers, just that a few of these people, hundreds, maybe even thousands, are VERY loud about their feelings on the matter. The only evidence I have seen of their power as a consumer block is the wildfire success of Wildstar.

I also wonder why you think it appeals to most people. Anet have said themselves they had a huge problem with people leaving the game to soon, that is the main reason for the NPE, while I do not think the NPE is the solution as it was never the problem.

That is a gross misinterpretation of data. It’s like hearing about global warming and blaming it on sweaters. The NPE had absolutely nothing to do with the issues you’re talking about, and did nothing towards “solving” them if ANet actually considered them to be a problem. The NPE was designed to catch players that were falling through the cracks in the middle levels, at the points where Traits were showing up, new abilities were showing up, and they seemed to get confused and frustrated by the added complexity and how this was communicated to them. It kind of supports the opposite to your position, as ANet’s move was to further coddle low-skill players, not further reward high-skill ones. The problem ANet told us about was happening well before anyone reached the max-level grind situations that you complain about. Apparently their retention of these players was within their expectations (although I’m sure any game wants to retain every customer possible).

Imho the problem has always been this reward system. You have a game that is all about skins, toys and other fluff then put that behind a boring grind. I think that gets people boring or burned out pretty fast,, That and the fact that the game does have no traditional quest (imho it should have been a mix of events and quests but that another topic) is why people leave to fast.

I still see no evidence that people “leave fast” in significant numbers. It’s just a claim made by people disgruntled with the game, often people for whom the game was never intended, like ex-raiders. They came into a European football match and started complaining that nobody was running with the ball. Perhaps they see their friends and guildmates leaving in significant numbers, but it would only make sense that they would have friends that had similar tastes, and so would provide a poor scientific sampling group.

As for grind, the solution is to have a variety of activities, and let people choose which ones they want to pursue. So long as you can fairly choose between many activities, chances are greater that you’ll find at least one that appeals to you. What makes grind bad is when you’re stuck with only one path towards your goal, and it’s not one that you enjoy, so you have to “grind” away at it, whatever that activity might be.

So if you really find it hard to understand why some people want something else then the brainless grind, slowly seeing some currency increase to then buy what you want, then I would suggest you watching that. It might also be interesting for some of the Anet staff. Just to place yourself in the world of those people who can’t stand this type of grind.

I don’t think I’ve heard anyone in this thread that has objected to alternative methods of earning rewards. Well, you have, but that was just so that you could only have the type of reward mechanisms that you like, and nobody else would be allowed to have the ones they like.

Ohoni.6057:

I think it’s time to go away of this thread, after reading that players should finish content on their first try (lol) or “at least the second”.

You’re not keeping things in their proper context. I’m not saying that definitely needs to be the case for all content, but it should be for content that the average player is meant to engage in. If content is meant to be hard enough that you’re intended to fail it many times, then it needs to be a super optional activity, one which you do not need to complete to unlock additional content, and which does not offer any exclusive rewards. It basically needs to be “take it or leave it, totally up to you” content, not “you’d better do this because we’ve got a pretty sweet bribe going on it” content.

And it’s very hard to balance that super optional activity to be worth running when other activities provide the same reward for nothing. So still, it’s all about getting everything for free, that was the whole point since page 1.

If you haven’t done so, you can install Windows 10, there is video game on the Windows Store called Microsoft Minesweeper, it’s a remake of the classic minesweeper found on all versions of windows. It’s the DEFINITION of a casual game, yet it offers challenges for different skill levels, easy, medium and hard daily achievements. Completing just the easy ones will give you a copper badge, while completing all of them each day will award you a nice Platinum badge (exclusive reward)

I checked the Microsoft forums and there aren’t any complaints by the “casuals” that they can’t get the exclusive platinum badges if they can’t play the hard challenges. A game that is the definition of a casual game has unique badges for harder content, while in GW2 players are complaining and moaning every time something can’t be beaten with their first try. I wonder which game is the “casual” one

Ohoni, why do you get rid of the names of who you are quoting?

To the topic of the thread, while I may not be skilled enough to do challenging content by myself, I’m not opposed to content being difficult and offering unique rewards for completion. Provided the unique rewards are just cosmetic.

If it is a skin look I really like, then it will serve as either a means for me to get better at the game, as I would have to do that to get the item on my own, or to group up with others to complete the mission.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

crazycraig.1245:

It is fair, and this everybody deserves everything is one of the biggest problems with this game.

Funny thing that, since i find the exclusivity and elitism to be one of the biggest problems other games have, and i started playing GW2 specifically to avoid it.

But i guess some people just can’t find fun in a game without denying it to others.

Funny I don’t remember GW2 not having exclusivity. There were exclusive items in the game since release and they always added new exclusive ones for each new release.

True, but then it was one of the games that cater to the elitists the least, and one where that way of thinking was marginalized. I see, that there are people in this thread that would very much like for it to change. For me, it would be a change for the worse.

Ohoni.6057:

You people are 2 inches from Communism xD

Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t you the one suggesting that everyone else should financially support the high skilled players so that they can get hard mode content and special rewards that they do not pay for?

Lol, yeah just as much as those players are paying for the content the ‘low skilled players’ like and they do not do.

And just as the PvP players pay for the PvE players as well and the other way around.

maddoctor.2738:

I checked the Microsoft forums and there aren’t any complaints by the “casuals” that they can’t get the exclusive platinum badges if they can’t play the hard challenges.

I checked this thread, and there was no complains against exclusive tokens of completion, like titles – things that exist only to show how good you are. Skins however are more than tokens, they have worth outside showing accomplishment

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

crazycraig.1245:

It is fair, and this everybody deserves everything is one of the biggest problems with this game.

Funny thing that, since i find the exclusivity and elitism to be one of the biggest problems other games have, and i started playing GW2 specifically to avoid it.

But i guess some people just can’t find fun in a game without denying it to others.

Funny I don’t remember GW2 not having exclusivity. There were exclusive items in the game since release and they always added new exclusive ones for each new release.

True, but then it was one of the games that cater to the elitists the least, and one where that way of thinking was marginalized. I see, that there are people in this thread that would very much like for it to change. For me, it would be a change for the worse.

And how exactly is adding exclusive rewards behind new content, like they’ve done with everything else in the game since release, going to change anything for the worse now? Putting COF armor behind COF didn’t cause elitisism, how is putting “CGC” armor behind CGC going to change that? That’s because the game offers so much for everyone to do, I don’t think anyone is saying to add only CGC in the game and put all rewards behind it.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

I checked the Microsoft forums and there aren’t any complaints by the “casuals” that they can’t get the exclusive platinum badges if they can’t play the hard challenges.

I checked this thread, and there was no complains against exclusive tokens of completion, like titles – things that exist only to show how good you are. Skins however are more than tokens, they have worth outside showing accomplishment

Skins also show accomplishments. Go find a couple of threads from the time they made Legendary Weapons available on the TP and you will find why.

Seera.5916:

To the topic of the thread, while I may not be skilled enough to do challenging content by myself, I’m not opposed to content being difficult and offering unique rewards for completion. Provided the unique rewards are just cosmetic.

If it is a skin look I really like, then it will serve as either a means for me to get better at the game, as I would have to do that to get the item on my own, or to group up with others to complete the mission.

It´s not even said that you would be unable to complete harder stuff. Challenging is completely different from hardcore.
Extreme 1:
Someone who, after playing in SW for a week+ , still needs comanders in defense events, needs help. Not only in GW2, but probably also in life.
Extreme 2:
Someone who does Arah paths solo without using exploits or bad mechanic, also needs help. And probably a life.

I am perfectly fine with random mobs of the calibre of SW mobs, but I surely don´t need a lupi lurking at every corner. So if that is the content Anet is looking for, harder random mobs with rewarding but not 1+ hours of gameplay consuming events, I am all for it.

Astralporing.1957:

crazycraig.1245:

It is fair, and this everybody deserves everything is one of the biggest problems with this game.

Funny thing that, since i find the exclusivity and elitism to be one of the biggest problems other games have, and i started playing GW2 specifically to avoid it.

But i guess some people just can’t find fun in a game without denying it to others.

In GW2, many items are still out of reach for many players. It really is only available for the hardcore casuals / those who do the brainless grinding. So I guess you could say that are the elitist of GW2.

Now you could say “But everybody is able to get the rewards”, sure, but that is the same when items are locked behind content.

Coulter.2315:

You people are 2 inches from Communism xD

Communism, in theory, is a great system. It didn’t work out due to practical limitations, but many of those do not exist in a virtual world.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Again no reason why the hypothetical majority should have exclusive rewards at the expense of the minority. (because that’s what you’re saying.)

That’s not what is being said – the whole point is to not have exclusives.

maddoctor.2738:

Skins also show accomplishments. Go find a couple of threads from the time they made Legendary Weapons available on the TP and you will find why.

Also but not only. Which is why i said they have a worth outside of showing accomplishments. Unlike minecraft badges you were talking about.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Skins also show accomplishments. Go find a couple of threads from the time they made Legendary Weapons available on the TP and you will find why.

Also but not only. Which is why i said they have a worth outside of showing accomplishments. Unlike minecraft badges you were talking about.

To explain what happened when they put Legendary Weapons on the TP, there was an uproar about them losing their exclusive status and being available for gold to everyone. It’s like having rewards behind content and then make them also available on the TP, completely devalues the rewards, same principle with legendary weapons on the TP.

Also: Minesweeper has ONLY badges available, it’s their only system they have to make people look different.

And it’s very hard to balance that super optional activity to be worth running when other activities provide the same reward for nothing. So still, it’s all about getting everything for free, that was the whole point since page 1.

You keep jumping off on tangents. a super optional activity is worth running if people find it fun. If they don’t find it fun then there’s no reason for it to exist. The loot does not need to be unique to the content, all it requires is that the quantity of loot be sufficient that people who enjoy it can run it, and NOT “be able to make more money elsewhere.”

Ohoni, why do you get rid of the names of who you are quoting?

I don’t, I just don’t type them in when I copy and paste the element I’m responding to. It doesn’t matter anyways, I’m responding to the words being said, not to the person behind them.

Lol, yeah just as much as those players are paying for the content the ‘low skilled players’ like and they do not do.

No, that doesn’t make sense. You can’t just say “and the opposite is true” when the opposite doesn’t actually make sense. The higher skilled players offer nothing to the lower skilled ones. Their existence does nothing to improve the game.

And just as the PvP players pay for the PvE players as well and the other way around.

Again, no, flipping it does not actually work. It’d be like saying “taxes pay for the government” “Well yeah, but the government pays for taxes, so. . .” It’s complete nonsense talk.

Skins also show accomplishments. Go find a couple of threads from the time they made Legendary Weapons available on the TP and you will find why.

But they should not be used for that purpose, because there are people who want them that do not care about the related accomplishment. Yes, anything CAN be a token of accomplishment, that is a completely different topic from whether or not it should.

Now you could say “But everybody is able to get the rewards”, sure, but that is the same when items are locked behind content.

By this point, I’m not really sure if you understand how a “comparison” is meant to work. They are meant to be used to relate two similar things to each other, not to put two completely different things side by side and say “see? I put two things together, so it’s a valid comparison.”

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

You people are 2 inches from Communism xD

Communism, in theory, is a great system. It didn’t work out due to practical limitations, but many of those do not exist in a virtual world.

Communism is indeed a system meant to create an “easy” life for the people. The government controls all aspects of the market to provide the basic needs of the people, ensuring no need for “hard content”.

But while people are satisfied with an easy life, the people who work hard achieve much greater successes in life. Which is why America the beacon of hope to many. We are Hard Mode, and we like it.

Ohoni.6057:

And it’s very hard to balance that super optional activity to be worth running when other activities provide the same reward for nothing. So still, it’s all about getting everything for free, that was the whole point since page 1.

You keep jumping off on tangents. a super optional activity is worth running if people find it fun. If they don’t find it fun then there’s no reason for it to exist. The loot does not need to be unique to the content, all it requires is that the quantity of loot be sufficient that people who enjoy it can run it, and NOT “be able to make more money elsewhere.”

And you still don’t get it. A super optional activity is worth running if it’s worth running. I loved running Fractals up to level 50 but after 100 runs without the fractal skin I wanted it stopped being fun. If I could get that fractal skin by farming in the SW I would’ve stopped running fractals after the 10th run and go to SW instead, and farm while watching a movie. Fun can keep content running for so long, after a while if you aren’t also rewarded for it, it simply stops being fun. It’s the same with Arah P4, I love that dungeon, especially fighting Lupicus and Simin, but once you realize running the easy modes in the same time frame results in 100x the rewards you start questioning “why am I running this?”

Is that so hard for you to understand? Fortunately Anet understand it so I have some high hopes from their Saturday announcement.

Skins also show accomplishments. Go find a couple of threads from the time they made Legendary Weapons available on the TP and you will find why.

But they should not be used for that purpose, because there are people who want them that do not care about the related accomplishment. Yes, anything CAN be a token of accomplishment, that is a completely different topic from whether or not it should.

Why not? Handing everything to everyone isn’t healthy for any type of game. I gave the minesweeper example, not everyone gets the Platinum badge, only those who finish the harder challenge, yet nobody complains. It’s funny if some of the GW2 community went to play minesweeper they will be all over the forums asking to be handed everything without even trying. That must be a unique feature of the GW2 community

I don´t want to trample on your patriotism, I really don´t. But maybe this sounds also familiar to you then:

Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:

I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”

That´s written on the statue of liberty, which itself was a free gift from France.

Ohoni.6057:

Maybe it’s the most appealing to most of the PvE players left, but imho not to most of the PvE players we will have after HoT gets released. (You know, those who came back after having left because they got bored of the current grind)

I dispute the assertion that these players are large in number of significance. I hear on the reddit for this and other games how “so many people got driven off GW2 by the lack of hardcore content and serious gear progression,” but I’ve seen no evidence that.

I am not specifically talking about ‘hardcore content’. Just the currency grind for items instead of more interesting reward system where content directly rewards you.

Ohoni.6057:

I also wonder why you think it appeals to most people. Anet have said themselves they had a huge problem with people leaving the game to soon, that is the main reason for the NPE, while I do not think the NPE is the solution as it was never the problem.

That is a gross misinterpretation of data. It’s like hearing about global warming and blaming it on sweaters. The NPE had absolutely nothing to do with the issues you’re talking about, and did nothing towards “solving” them if ANet actually considered them to be a problem.

That was my point.. They did see people leave and did try to fix that with the NPE.. but imho the main reason for people to leave had nothing to do with skills and hearths being too complicated (you know, the things they change with the NPE patch) but with the reward system (and lack of traditional quest) that makes it a dull experience when you are chasing rewards.

Ohoni.6057:

Imho the problem has always been this reward system. You have a game that is all about skins, toys and other fluff then put that behind a boring grind. I think that gets people boring or burned out pretty fast,, That and the fact that the game does have no traditional quest (imho it should have been a mix of events and quests but that another topic) is why people leave to fast.

I still see no evidence that people “leave fast” in significant numbers. It’s just a claim made by people disgruntled with the game, often people for whom the game was never intended, like ex-raiders.

It’s a claim coming from Anet themselves!

Have a read, Colin explaining why they added the NPE, talking about the new system:

- Over a years worth of testing with new players found we were absolutely able to keep them both more engaged, and more likely to return to keep playing Gw2 as a result of the intended system. That is at the end of the day, a win for all of us since all of you need more people to play with! However: if we find in the live environment that isn’t true and we’re not retaining new users better, we’ll absolutely both share that information with you, and continue to iterate to make it better. We keep very real time metrics of player retention for new users, and we’ll know very quickly how effective the work we’ve done is. I want to make it clear: what we used to have absolutely wasn’t good enough for our standards of retaining new users. Before we do some of the other things we want to do with Gw2, we had to fix this, period.

Ohoni.6057:

As for grind, the solution is to have a variety of activities, and let people choose which ones they want to pursue. So long as you can fairly choose between many activities, chances are greater that you’ll find at least one that appeals to you. What makes grind bad is when you’re stuck with only one path towards your goal, and it’s not one that you enjoy, so you have to “grind” away at it, whatever that activity might be.

Again, that is what they did try and fail with. You simply suggest replacing the currency gold by another currency, but that will not do much. It just would change the grind from grinding gold to grinding the new currency. There will always be content that then turns out to be the most optimal way to get the reward (it’s extremely hard to balance it) and you still remove the content value of the item.

That are all problems that have been explained before.

Torolan.5816:

I don´t want to trample on your patriotism, I really don´t. But maybe this sounds also familiar to you then:

Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:

I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”

That´s written on the statue of liberty, which itself was a free gift from France.

And if memory of history serves, it was actually hard for the statue to become a reality. In fact, America almost failed to secure the base needed. So this discussion is perfect for this thread, as the Statue of Liberty can be an analogy for why we need Hard Mode. Nothing great in life comes easy.

Ohoni.6057:

So if you really find it hard to understand why some people want something else then the brainless grind, slowly seeing some currency increase to then buy what you want, then I would suggest you watching that. It might also be interesting for some of the Anet staff. Just to place yourself in the world of those people who can’t stand this type of grind.

I don’t think I’ve heard anyone in this thread that has objected to alternative methods of earning rewards. Well, you have, but that was just so that you could only have the type of reward mechanisms that you like, and nobody else would be allowed to have the ones they like.

Then I think you have missed a part. the main discussion is “locking rewards behind content” vs “making items available in many ways.”.

Btw, personally I don’t mind if 50% of the items that are locked behind specific content can still be sold. So allowing you to earn it in another way.

That would allow for both.. at least for 50% of the items.

And of course I could just as well say “you are only suggesting the reward mechanisms that you like, and nobody else would be allowed to have the ones they like.”. So it’s a little silly. If one person wants A, and another B and they are opposites (completely locking items behind specific content vs not locking items behind content by allowing multiple ways of getting them) then yes.. BOTH are suggesting a system they want and the other does one.

Anyway, I am still fine with half the items being able to be sold.. so at least for half the items that would mean you could still do any content for it (like you want). Or make that possible in other ways then just selling.

So in my case it’s more like: Let’s do 50% of A (lock it behind specific content) and 50% of B (Items are still behind content, but can be obtained in multiple ways) and you say.. No we need 100% of B.

While I must say, I would want 95% of the items to be put behind specific content. But I don’t think anybody here seems to have a problem with that.. the question is more or it should ALSO be available in other ways.
At this moment 95% of the items are not put behind specific content.

So according to that reasoning, it was hard to build(hard mode) and is bound to become free as it had been build for everyone(easy mode). That would mean that the hardcore mode is only a mean to achieve the easy mode for everyone. The statue of liberty was not hard to build because it was that people wanted it to be hard to build, it was hard to build because the circumstances were grim. There are no grim circumstances in GW2, making the really hardcore mode unnecessary.

Torolan.5816:

So according to that reasoning, it was hard to build(hard mode) and is bound to become free as it had been build for everyone(easy mode). That would mean that the hardcore mode is only a mean to achieve the easy mode for everyone. The statue of liberty was not hard to build because it was that people wanted it to be hard to build, it was hard to build because the circumstances were grim. There are no grim circumstances in GW2, making the really hardcore mode unnecessary.

Actually, the Statue of Liberty was inspired by America’s greatness. The Frenchmen who came up with the idea saw America’s exceptionalism (Hard Mode), and wanted to be a part of it. So in turn, America inspired the French to do great things (their own Hard Mode).

Fast forward to today, and it was 3 Americans who saved the French people from a terrorist attack on a train. One almost lost a limb (Hard Mode) attempting to subdue the attacker.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Torolan.5816:

I don´t want to trample on your patriotism, I really don´t. But maybe this sounds also familiar to you then:

Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:

I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”

That´s written on the statue of liberty, which itself was a free gift from France.

And if memory of history serves, it was actually hard for the statue to become a reality. In fact, America almost failed to secure the base needed. So this discussion is perfect for this thread, as the Statue of Liberty can be an analogy for why we need Hard Mode. Nothing great in life comes easy.

We don’t do it because it is easy but because it is hard
-John F. Kennedy

Just had to laugh a bit with you guys politic discussion here.. especially the comment that communism was basically good. Anyway, all jokes to the side. Let’s go back to the topic.

Devata.6589:

We don’t do it because it is easy but because it is hard
-John F. Kennedy

Amen.

God Bless America.

So why is it free to watch at then today from most of NY as a symbol of hope and greatness? Would this not basically mean that hardcore people aim to be the statue of liberty, with people watching their trinkets, flaring up the show off and elitism debatte again?

Would it not be much more hardcore to hide it behind a wall and let people do a hard army drill course to reach it and see the symbol of freedom, with drill seargants(hardcore enthusiasts) yelling at people falling behind(casuals), or at the old(people with disabilities or just older people), tired(those coming home from work for a little relaxation) and the homeless(people without guild support)?
Nobody would give a rat´s bottom about the statue of liberty if it was hidden behind a hard to beat content wall, all you have to do is pay a little fee for transport to the isle.

Not taking away from the heroism of the people you mentioned, but it is also common sense to overbear the attacker if you could be next on his shooting list. Of course not everybody would have done this, and their grantings of the highest order of courage from the hands of the French President is well deserved. Also one of the guys was a soldier and so probably more used to weapons, the other guys had simply admirable boatloads of courage.

Post to fix forum bug.