Why everyone keep complaining.......

Why everyone keep complaining.......

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Posted by: Raziel.4216

Raziel.4216

^ The content was advertised months before release, some of it for more than half a year.
Research a product before you buy it, I got exactly what I was expecting, minus the fractal legendary backpack.

If Legend of Zelda came out tomorrow, the usual
forum dwellers would go nuts about the need to
“grind” to get exp, new swords, new potions etc

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Posted by: MadRabbit.3179

MadRabbit.3179

Well this is the problem when everything about an item is pretty much meaningless except for the skin. There is no other redeeming value.

That is an issue, but I don’t think it’s really THE issue. If we consider it an issue, then it’s one that’s fundamental to a game model based on horizontal progression. The nature of eliminating vertical progression in a character development based game just cuts out so many potential rewards, because the rewards are then limited to things that doesn’t result in power creep.

Even with that, I don’t think cosmetic approach is flawed, because making your character look kitten and designing an unique, individualistic style has a lot of value to people. A perfect example was the day white and black wings appeared on the gem store and everyone went bonkers.

They aren’t capitalizing on this as an in-game reward though, because they are leveraging it as a revenue stream which puts the two in competition against either. As a result, we have very little in the ways of short term obtainable goals that produce unique skins and the few that we have are tied to a process that’s such a massive drain on the player you either burnt out on it or question whether it’s worth to do it in the first place.

So what should ANet do?

I think there is a number of things they can do and a number of things that can’t be fixed.

One, equalize all the T6 exotic crafting materials by adding them all to the same loot tables that already exist for blood, claws, bones, etc. Black Diamonds can drop with the same degree of rarity in all zones and the time gate on Charged Quartz Crystals is removed completely and is now a dropped by mobs like blood is. The market will be crazy for awhile, but the acquisition of different stat prefixes will eventually balance out.

Two, if you zone-specific gathering materials to encourage people to play in a certain zone, then they should be gathering materials that target a group of zones. This model exists as a remnant in Tyria where certain ore, wood, leather only drop in groups of zones. The difference between that and the existing model is that the groups of zones provide multiple types of content I can participate in and gather the materials while just doing that content. It adds some degree of choice.

Three, if you are going to use stat prefixes rewards in new content, then it has to be approached with a higher degree of equality than it is now, so penalizing players for different builds is no longer an issue. At the very least, remove the most grievous violations of this like tying Assassin ascended earrings to an achievement to use a crutch when you can’t come up with rewards. There is just no reason for this.

Four, focus more on cosmetic rewards again. More skins that are added to the loot tables in the form of rare named exotics and used as rewards in achievements and collections that are more obtainable than legendary items. I’m fine with having really long term goals for items that add cosmetic effects you can’t acquire any other way; I just think having that and only that is not enough for people. You can balance this issue out with your gem store by selling only items in the gem store that aren’t consistent with the lore and theme of the world; like bunny ears, angel wings, glasses, beanies, stuff like that. I think their introduction of the ghostly infusions in raids opened up a whole chapter in potential cosmetic customization.

Like the interesting thing about cosmetic skins as a reward model is that issue of exclusivity isn’t necessarily an issue, because if you saturate the pool with enough variance, players can mix and match various skins together to create uniqueness to their own character. The issue is more just a lack of them.

Five, the model they used for the acquisition of the legendary backpack isn’t perfect, but it’s world better than the one they used for weapons. Like that model involves slow progression thru the fractals, completing challenges and beating harder and harder levels. There is a degree of gold sink to it, but it’s more balanced out with the progression model than anything else. It also attaches a real sense of accomplishment and meaning to the item. Like, legendary weapons don’t really have that; I built The Legend in three days after the release of HoT, because I had a ton of gold lying around to throw at it.

Six, just figure out what you are and what this game is about instead of just trying to be everything all at once and promise the world and then neglect everything do to a lack of manpower.

And with that, there is other issues that can’t cleanly be fixed.

Like, in game zone based currency is an example. (Not talking about currency tied to a particular game mode which should exist). A potential solution to that which brings the game back to a “chose the way you want to play” is to nuke all the different currency, return to the karma system and convert player’s existing currency to karma. The downside of that is we have had a steady constant stream of karma coming in over the years with nothing to spend it on, so that shift would result in long term players just being able to buy everything. Another issue is people stockpiling karma and then buying everything all at once in the next content patch.

But whether or not those things are “unfair” or “bad” is debateable. I earned all of that karma. The only reason it’s an issue is, because you want to stretch out your new content as long as possible and the best way to do that is to invalidate all the currency I earned in old content. However, there is other ways to handle that issue.

Rehabilitated Elementalist. Now, trolling the Thief forums with my math.

(edited by MadRabbit.3179)

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

So what should ANet do? So far, their approach has largely been reward-by-tiny-increments.

No. Their approach was adding sinks by a truckload. When your drops increase by 10%, but you need to farm 10x as much as before to keep up, the game will not feel more rewarding.

See the precursor crafting, for example – it’s being finetuned so that, on average, it is not only more costly than buying them off tp at the previous costs, but it also requires a ton of effort on top of it. Lot of the good stuff from the new zones does not drop (or drops at a really low rate) – instead they have to be bought for map currency, which requires farming that map over and over again (and makes any other drops irrelevant for this, since you cannot change them into that currency). And so on, and so on.

If anything, the game feels even less rewarding than it once was.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: MadRabbit.3179

MadRabbit.3179

So what should ANet do? So far, their approach has largely been reward-by-tiny-increments.

No. Their approach was adding sinks by a truckload. When your drops increase by 10%, but you need to farm 10x as much as before to keep up, the game will not feel more rewarding.

See the precursor crafting, for example – it’s being finetuned so that, on average, it is not only more costly than buying them off tp at the previous costs, but it also requires a ton of effort on top of it. Lot of the good stuff from the new zones does not drop (or drops at a really low rate) – instead they have to be bought for map currency, which requires farming that map over and over again (and makes any other drops irrelevant for this, since you cannot change them into that currency). And so on, and so on.

If anything, the game feels even less rewarding than it once was.

I agree with this. It seems like they got so focused on designing HoT as a vessel for fixing their economy, an economy largely broken due to the problems of horizontal progression and very little incentive to buy anything, that they didn’t really consider the full impact of what they were doing and just flat out neglected introducing anything that took the player experience into account and creating that feeling of “rewarding”.

It also leaves me baffled to some extent, because there was other ways to approach this. Like the potential of consumable crafting, items that are perishable and by their own nature create constant demand due to their diminishing supply, is just woefully untapped in GW2 in comparison to other games. Even the issue of consumable items resulting in power creep isn’t much of an issue, because they are accessible by everyone due to being generated by crafting and sold on the market.

Rehabilitated Elementalist. Now, trolling the Thief forums with my math.

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Posted by: Khisanth.2948

Khisanth.2948

So what should ANet do? So far, their approach has largely been reward-by-tiny-increments. In response to the game-does-not-feel-rewarding complaints, they now drop bags on bags of mats and blue/green salvage bait, with some yellow salvage (or TP those greatswords) items, and the occasional orange that gets salvaged or sold for skin and rarely (if ever) gets used. Those who’ve embraced the item-of-a-thousand pieces system embrace this loot approach because it gets them the item faster. Were the very few desirable drops to become more common, they’d over time become less desirable. I’m not sure what I’d do. Maybe Anet is clueless on how to fix this issue for those with the not-rewarding perception?

The only way to stop an item from becoming more common is to remove it from the drop table entirely. Otherwise anything rare will become more common eventually. Just look at how many people are running around with legendaries. The wardrobe system is certainly not helping there. How many other previous game was mainly focused on cosmetic rather than the stats on items? Does following the designs for a stat focused game make sense in game with heavier focus on cosmetics?

In a stat focused game making a rare and powerful item to become more common results in power creep which can create all sorts of problems. In a cosmetic focused game people who want to be uniqe snowflakes stop being unique snowflakes sooner. The best way to maintain unique snowflake status would be to make limited time exclusive items that are guaranteed to never be available again.

I’m also not sure if there’s any long term satisfaction in MMO item acquisition if one of the development goals is to make it possible for most everyone to get the item sooner or later. Most long-term satisfaction I’ve seen referred to comes from exclusivity.

Exclusivity assumes most people only want an item because they think it will impress other people. I wonder how that compares to reality.

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Posted by: morrolan.9608

morrolan.9608

I agree with this. It seems like they got so focused on designing HoT as a vessel for fixing their economy, an economy largely broken due to the problems of horizontal progression and very little incentive to buy anything, that they didn’t really consider the full impact of what they were doing and just flat out neglected introducing anything that took the player experience into account and creating that feeling of “rewarding”.

This has been the problem with their reward systems for almost the entire life of the game apart from isolated instances like SAB when it was first released. There is such a overwhelming focus on the economy that they give no thought to the individual player experience at all.

Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro

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Posted by: Rezzet.3614

Rezzet.3614

I don’t get it I’m loving Hot I like the mastery system the new maps and new legendaries we can craft. The only thing I didn’t like was raids being hard core only ,world of warcraft realized they were making content that only a fraction of there player base was seeing and implemented lfr (looking for raid). Minus that little hic up I’m enjoying Hot and for what we get for no sub fee I don’t understand all the negativity ……….. Anet your doing fine keep up the good work just hope you guys at some point make raids a little more accessible to the masses.

the main reasons should be :
Core Dungeon rewards got nerfed
Fractal rewards got greatly nerfed and locked behind HoT Masteries
Elite Specializations made Core Specializations mostly obsolete
and Meta Event having Massive global timers and in the case of dragon stand having two hours timer and then only 15 minutes to explore the map only if you successfully beat the Meta event

maybe the fact anet focused on gem store content as soon expansion came out while the expansion itself doesnt have much content

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Posted by: Gwaihir.1745

Gwaihir.1745

They need to quit with the gemstore until the game is restored to a decent state. I don’t think all the blatant hot was crap forum posts came out of nowhere nor because so many people are pleased with hot.

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

^ The content was advertised months before release, some of it for more than half a year.
Research a product before you buy it, I got exactly what I was expecting, minus the fractal legendary backpack.

Yup probably our fault.

I knew that legendary weapons would come into the game over time. But I think that it was fair to expect to get new legendary weapons on a regular basis and to get all 16 by then end of the first year of HoT. 4 months later only 3 legendary and no infos on future legendary. They have 8 months to get 13 other legendary, do you think they will? Do you think it’s legit to get the new legendary set more than 1 year after the expansion? Did they told us that when they announced the xpac?

I was hype for the fractal. Did they announced that they would make level 80-100 useless? Twice the time, no reward? When the community was vocal about their fear that the system would incentive player to do swamp only, they didn’t say oh ya that’s exactly what will happen. No they said don’t worry we though about that and it will not the case. Did the announced that there will be only 3 daily for 100 level compare to the 5 daily for 50 level we used to have? Did they announced that oh level 51+ would have good reward, but anything else below will have garbage ascended reward?

Did they announced us. Hey guy we will make 1000 more use for ascended material so that the price jump by a factor of 4 just as we make ascended gear even more needed? (hopefully for me I already had all my ascended gear).

When they announced new stuff going in WvW and brand new map, did they also announced that those map will be complete crap that nobody want to play and would make WvW a complete wasteland with no player in the borderlands?

When they announced elite specialisation and people were afraid that those would be more powerful than the core profession what did anet told us? Oh don’t worry elite spec are new ways to play your character, not pure update. Oups. Biggest power creep in the history of Gw2. Didn’t saw that in the announcement.

They did a lot of good thing with the xpac and I had a lot of fun. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t complain about all the stuff they completely screw up.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: Raziel.4216

Raziel.4216

They did a lot of good thing with the xpac and I had a lot of fun. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t complain about all the stuff they completely screw up.

My post was directed @ the guy who posted right before me.
There’s no problem with complaining, but the claims made in that post are simply dishonest.

If Legend of Zelda came out tomorrow, the usual
forum dwellers would go nuts about the need to
“grind” to get exp, new swords, new potions etc

Why everyone keep complaining.......

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

My post was directed @ the guy who posted right before me.
There’s no problem with complaining, but the claims made in that post are simply dishonest.

I don’t see what was wrong with the post right before you. HoT seem unfinished, unbalanced and a lot of the thing were not in the xpac, but are coming soon. I couldn’t give a kitten for what come at the gem store that how they make money so we don’t have a subscription fee. But everything else he said was true.

Fractal see unfinished and unbalance in term of reward and HP sponge at later level. They talk about update in the future but the xpac was suppose to be that update.

WvW is unfinished and unbalance for like everything. Again xpac is suppose to be the big update that fix thing, not break them while saying oh don’t worry we have a big update coming up sometime, I promise.

I don’t see anything wrong with the post right before yours.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: Raziel.4216

Raziel.4216

My post was directed @ the guy who posted right before me.
There’s no problem with complaining, but the claims made in that post are simply dishonest.

I don’t see what was wrong with the post right before you. HoT seem unfinished, unbalanced and a lot of the thing were not in the xpac, but are coming soon. I couldn’t give a kitten for what come at the gem store that how they make money so we don’t have a subscription fee. But everything else he said was true.

Fractal see unfinished and unbalance in term of reward and HP sponge at later level. They talk about update in the future but the xpac was suppose to be that update.

WvW is unfinished and unbalance for like everything. Again xpac is suppose to be the big update that fix thing, not break them while saying oh don’t worry we have a big update coming up sometime, I promise.

I don’t see anything wrong with the post right before yours.

I see a lot wrong with that post.

We didn’t get what we paid for? We got exactly what was advertised, minus the legendaries.
How can someone claim getting almost-everything that was advertised seems like a small dlc? Research a product before you purchase it.
Half the things are coming soon? List all the features that we have and then list all what we’re missing, far from half.

If Legend of Zelda came out tomorrow, the usual
forum dwellers would go nuts about the need to
“grind” to get exp, new swords, new potions etc

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Posted by: Vieux P.1238

Vieux P.1238

i spent 100$ on HoT pre-purchase…with out counting the 70$ on the original game. Never ever freaking again Anet…. Not one penny!

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

I see a lot wrong with that post.

We didn’t get what we paid for? We got exactly what was advertised, minus the legendaries.
How can someone claim getting almost-everything that was advertised seems like a small dlc? Research a product before you purchase it.
Half the things are coming soon? List all the features that we have and then list all what we’re missing, far from half.

Well that’s highly debatable. It’s technically true that everything they told us is in the xpac, but a lot of that stuff was badly implemented, had a lot of bugs and they added a lot of changes that were just bad. If I tell you I’m gonna give you a computer with a high end graphic card and you receive a computer with a high end graphic card, but a terrible processor. Technically, you received all they promised you, but you didn’t expect you receive a kittenty processor making the compute not that useful anyway.

We received what we ask for, but that broke other thing by doing so, making a big portion of the older content worst than it was pre-hot. Dungeon, Fractal and WvW mostly.

Ok when he said half the thing he was maybe doing an Hyperbole. But really it can be view a lot of different way and this answer will change for everybody. For exemple, I don’t really care about open world. I like fractal, raid and WvW. Well guess what, we’ll receive new fractal and maybe fix the current fractal in the future, they will fix WvW in the future. Seem like a pretty big portion of the time I spend in the game will be fix in the future.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: Raziel.4216

Raziel.4216

I see a lot wrong with that post.

We didn’t get what we paid for? We got exactly what was advertised, minus the legendaries.
How can someone claim getting almost-everything that was advertised seems like a small dlc? Research a product before you purchase it.
Half the things are coming soon? List all the features that we have and then list all what we’re missing, far from half.

Well that’s highly debatable. It’s technically true that everything they told us is in the xpac, but a lot of that stuff was badly implemented, had a lot of bugs and they added a lot of changes that were just bad. If I tell you I’m gonna give you a computer with a high end graphic card and you receive a computer with a high end graphic card, but a terrible processor. Technically, you received all they promised you, but you didn’t expect you receive a kittenty processor making the compute not that useful anyway.

Which part is debatable?
Did we or did we not get what was advertised, minus the legendaries?
How much you liked it is subjective, but we got what was advertised and that’s a fact.

We received what we ask for, but that broke other thing by doing so, making a big portion of the older content worst than it was pre-hot. Dungeon, Fractal and WvW mostly.

WvW was dead pre-HoT.
Dungeon nerf was advertised pre-HoT, we knew it was coming. Once again nothing was delivered in secret or unexpected ways.
Fractal was not broken, the changes were asked for in the CDI. They have not delivered the leaderboard and the last step for the legendary backpack but that hardly “breaks” fractals.
Again, which part is debatable?

Ok when he said half the thing he was maybe doing an Hyperbole. But really it can be view a lot of different way and this answer will change for everybody. For exemple, I don’t really care about open world. I like fractal, raid and WvW. Well guess what, we’ll receive new fractal and maybe fix the current fractal in the future, they will fix WvW in the future. Seem like a pretty big portion of the time I spend in the game will be fix in the future.

Nothing said here changes the fact that the claim is dishonest.

If Legend of Zelda came out tomorrow, the usual
forum dwellers would go nuts about the need to
“grind” to get exp, new swords, new potions etc

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

Which part is debatable?
Did we or did we not get what was advertised, minus the legendaries?

we did not. There’s still only 1 wing of the raid existing, even though the raid was supposed to be the highlight of HoT, legendary armour is not in yet as the raid was not completed, and only 3 out of 16 legendaries are done with none mentioned to be released in the next half a year.

WvW was dead pre-HoT.

say what now? WvW was always one of the most alive parts of the game, as it filled the void with no content. Top tier worlds ALWAYS had queues, even medium tier were full. It’s no longer the case.

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Posted by: Raziel.4216

Raziel.4216

Which part is debatable?
Did we or did we not get what was advertised, minus the legendaries?

we did not. There’s still only 1 wing of the raid existing, even though the raid was supposed to be the highlight of HoT, legendary armour is not in yet as the raid was not completed, and only 3 out of 16 legendaries are done with none mentioned to be released in the next half a year.

As I said in my previous post, we got what was advertised minus the legendaries.

From https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2
Players who purchase Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns will get access to our first raid, with the first of the three associated raid wings to be activated shortly after launch. During this window, we’ll be looking at balance with our new profession and elite specializations as well as giving players some time to train the Heart of Maguuma Masteries that will be used in the first raid wing. The remaining two raid wings will follow in sequence soon after.

We got what was advertised, the others will come soon after.

Again, which part is debatable?

WvW was dead pre-HoT.

say what now? WvW was always one of the most alive parts of the game, as it filled the void with no content. Top tier worlds ALWAYS had queues, even medium tier were full. It’s no longer the case.

Alive in what, the top 6 servers? WvW was agonizing pre-HoT due to lack of content.
HoT was supposed to revitalize WvW, it failed misserably, but not fixing it is not the same as killing it.

If Legend of Zelda came out tomorrow, the usual
forum dwellers would go nuts about the need to
“grind” to get exp, new swords, new potions etc

(edited by Raziel.4216)

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Posted by: Akkeros.1675

Akkeros.1675

Another thread where a player complains about other people complaining….

Asking “Why…” and saying, “I don’t get it.” is not complaining.

its passive aggressive complaining

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Posted by: Gaile Gray

Gaile Gray

ArenaNet Communications Manager

I think this thread has exceeded its usefulness. We appreciate the kind and supportive comments in the OP. We also understand and take on board opinions that are different than those originally expressed. Clearly opinions vary. At this point, we’ll close to resolve what has become a circular discussion.

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet