Guild Wars 2

Qawsada.4251:

Do you know what I think about this whole ordeal? I see BOTH TYPE OF RELATIONSHIP as a cheap way of telling a story, and it gets in the way of what actually is happening with the main plot. It doesn’t help that these same-sex relationship in these stories are usually the “in your face” kind of way and that their fans are the loudest when spoken against it.

Relationships are part of a story. They’re a way of making characters feel real – that is why almost all books, films, video games etc have a relationship in them. Of course it isn’t required, but in an MMO you’re trying to construct a world – so it would be really weird if there were no relationships.

People can relate to relationships, so they make sense.

Qawsada.4251:

Do you know what I think about this whole ordeal? I see BOTH TYPE OF RELATIONSHIP as a cheap way of telling a story, and it gets in the way of what actually is happening with the main plot. It doesn’t help that these same-sex relationship in these stories are usually the “in your face” kind of way and that their fans are the loudest when spoken against it.

That’s like saying a character’s thoughts and emotions gets in the way of the main plot…

“Why do I care if this person’s significant other had died? We can still be out there killing evil stuff!!”

They aren’t there to “get in the way of what’s actually happening”. They’re their to add depth to the character and world. If they didn’t do that, the story would be totally generic, and it would give cardboard a run for its money when it comes to depth and emotion.

I haven’t read the entire thread but I just wanted to say that I like this Kasmeer-Majory relationship, because it’s just a normal drama-free relationship of normal people.

The relationship between Faolain and Caithe is way to much drama for my taste. In fact for me it never felt like Faolin was presented as a real Person. She was rather acting like an evil principle, like a she-demon, like an excuse why the “good” Caithe should be threatened to fall into the nightmare. The only touching Moment was, when Faolain set Caithe free from the poison that her love had caused.

And the relationship between Logan and Jenna is to full of “oh I’m only a low soldier and you are the queen” stuff.

This may be nitpicking it a bit, but it is kind of weird how Tyria is basically set in a pseudo-medieval setting, but with extremely modern and liberal views of same-sex relationships. It kind of makes sense that people on a different planet, with different species, approach this matter in a non-medieval way. But on the other hand we’re shown very little of how the people of Tyria view these sorts of relationships.

Are same-sex relationships considered normal on Tyria? Would same-sex relationships be acceptable among nobility as well? How do the people of Tyria feel about inter-species relationships? Would a human/charr relationship be possible, given their history? We’re never really given any indication of what society in Tyria feels about these things. But if we did get some insight, it would add credibility to the world I think.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

This may be nitpicking it a bit, but it is kind of weird how Tyria is basically set in a pseudo-medieval setting, but with extremely modern and liberal views of same-sex relationships. It kind of makes sense that people on a different planet, with different species, approach this matter in a non-medieval way. But on the other hand we’re shown very little of how the people of Tyria view these sorts of relationships.

Are same-sex relationships considered normal on Tyria? Would same-sex relationships be acceptable among nobility as well? How do the people of Tyria feel about inter-species relationships? Would a human/charr relationship be possible, given their history? We’re never really given any indication of what society in Tyria feels about these things. But if we did get some insight, it would add credibility to the world I think.

It’s not that weird, really. The homophobia of the medieval period, and straight through to the modern day, sprung from a three-pronged monothestic religious movement that lacks anything remotely close to a parallel in Tyria. It’s weird to carry things over if you don’t also bring the reason for their existence.

As for how it’s treated, I would have sworn there was a pre-launch interview going over it, but I don’t blame them (this time) for not including it in-game. As this thread amply proves, even the little they do show is more than sufficient to spark quite vocal debate, complete with ridiculous and completely unsubstantiated claims. There’s a reason you very rarely see games take a stance on contemporary political debates unless a core element of the developers’ vision; no game company wants to be pulled into the sort of kittenstorm that would unleash.

EDIT: Found the interview (Hail Google!). http://gaygamer.net/2011/10/interview_guild_war_2s_ree_soe.html

The relevant bits are “Other races have a history of same-sex relationships, but those relationships tend to be downplayed and not lauded within the culture. This is not to say that the races of Tyria are naturally homophobic; they’re absolutely not. It’s simply not particularly common.”, “The other races are curious about it, true, because many of them aren’t used to seeing that kind of relationship. Still, the other races don’t, in general, approach it with a sense of abhorrence or disdain.”, and my favorite, “Individuals of the various races might have their own reasons to denigrate a same-sex pairing. Such individuals will tend to be seen as villains within the overall culture of Tyria.”

Erukk.1408:

Kalavier.1097:

I’m just not seeing any evidence of Tyria being hostile toward gays.

^^This^^

Homophobia and representation are two totally different subjects.

kitten be American misusage of the Greek/later Latin word with the meaning fear as a general negative suffix.
Ok let me say it like this: Its funny how on Tyria there are less openly homosexual or bisexual couples and groups than irl in terms of animals (which average at 15% in terms of consistent data for the first and between 40-80% in situational records for the second).

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Relationships are part of a story. They’re a way of making characters feel real – that is why almost all books, films, video games etc have a relationship in them. Of course it isn’t required, but in an MMO you’re trying to construct a world – so it would be really weird if there were no relationships.

People can relate to relationships, so they make sense.

And for the cost of it, the integrity and that little the living story has in terms of seriousness. The way I see it, the relationships in this game is a cheap write in at best and a fanfic of the author’s at worst. I played many RPG games in my days and many of them don’t require that bull crap added into the story. Some of those RPG game did those “relationship” where the player get to bang a lover, but they are so out of the way of the main story that you have to dig deep to see it. In other word, they are NOT required. What do I see here in the living story (or the sylvari personal story)? Lesbian and interracial relationship that making the story felt a lot less serious and it pathetic. I don’t want to see Desperate Housewives or some drama of both lesbian in game. I want to see an adventure story of the PC or some other NPC being heroes (and they are failing this in the living story and the personal story)!

Erukk.1408:

That’s like saying a character’s thoughts and emotions gets in the way of the main plot…

“Why do I care if this person’s significant other had died? We can still be out there killing evil stuff!!”

They aren’t there to “get in the way of what’s actually happening”. They’re their to add depth to the character and world. If they didn’t do that, the story would be totally generic, and it would give cardboard a run for its money when it comes to depth and emotion.

The story itself felt like cardboard and the relationship just making turn into paper.

I fail to see how it’s being a drama show at all with Marjory/Kasmeer.

Even if the relationship would make the story less “serious” – why is that a bad thing? If anything, the more humorous characters like Tybalt or Lord Faren have been the best and most likable in GW2.
I mean I guess I can somewhat see where you are coming from, the delivery is still a bit clumsy at times. Kasmeer’s backstory-dump made me cringe a little as well. But I’ll take characters that actually have a bit of development and hooks for future stories over Destiny’s Edge, who were pretty much solely defined by their relationship with each other and most of the buildup presumably happened in a book I haven’t read.

As far as Jory and Kasmeer go, I’d just appreciate it if they got to interact with the rest of the group a bit more individually. Maybe have them split up for a time? I don’t actually know about them as characters, honestly, but that might just be because I didn’t play too much during past updates that featured them.

AsgarZigel.4530:

Even if the relationship would make the story less “serious” – why is that a bad thing? If anything, the more humorous characters like Tybalt or Lord Faren have been the best and most likable in GW2.
I mean I guess I can somewhat see where you are coming from, the delivery is still a bit clumsy at times. Kasmeer’s backstory-dump made me cringe a little as well. But I’ll take characters that actually have a bit of development and hooks for future stories over Destiny’s Edge, who were pretty much solely defined by their relationship with each other and most of the buildup presumably happened in a book I haven’t read.

As far as Jory and Kasmeer go, I’d just appreciate it if they got to interact with the rest of the group a bit more individually. Maybe have them split up for a time? I don’t actually know about them as characters, honestly, but that might just be because I didn’t play too much during past updates that featured them.

Well, in all honestly people calling this group “DE version 2” is just misguided.

Rox and Braham ran into each other during Molten alliance, and kinda teamed up as an Adventurer pair afterwards (though Rox went after Tequatl alone… poor girl lugging that chunk of his tail around for weeks waiting to run into Rytlock :O) though they have split up on times. It’s going to break up as soon as Rox gets Scarlet dealt in (dead or defeated for good) and joins the stone warband. Braham will likely continue to adventuer alone , or maybe with Taimi (and definitely Rox when she has time). Marjory and Kasmeer on the other hand really ran into them because of the Scarlet events. After Scarlet is dealt with, I don’t see them doing much adventuring and instead going back to the Private investigator business.

But yes, they could interact a little bit more with this coming to a finale soon.

Kalavier.1097:

Well, in all honestly people calling this group “DE version 2” is just misguided.

So you’re saying that the devs are misguided?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Kalavier.1097:

Well, in all honestly people calling this group “DE version 2” is just misguided.

So you’re saying that the devs are misguided?

When have the devs called them that. I’ve heard people saying even the Devs don’t say that.

Either way, it’s true. Rox goes to join the stone warband. Marjory and Kasmeer go back to their PI business. You are left with Taimi, Braham, and the player. Taimi may go back to Rata Sum as her role model is dead/defeated. Braham will continue to adventure and do norn stuff.

I don’t see how there are any connections between the two groups that’d warrant a “Destiny’s edge version 2!” title.

Kalavier.1097:

When have the devs called them that. I’ve heard people saying even the Devs don’t say that.

In an interview the devs/writers said that they pretty much call them DE 2.0 in-house.

Kalavier.1097:

I don’t see how there are any connections between the two groups that’d warrant a “Destiny’s edge version 2!” title.

Maybe you should try and look then to see the similarities. You can’t see a whole lot with your eyes closed dear.

Many of the members of this new group, are related directly or indirectly to members of Destiny’s Edge. Taimi is the Ward of Zojja. Braham is the son of Eir. Rox is trying to join Rytlock’s warband.

Plus they feature a member of almost every class and race, much like Destiny’s Edge. They have clearly been designed to be the new player companions for upcoming Living Story, as a replacement for the less popular Destiny’s Edge.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Kalavier.1097:

I don’t see how there are any connections between the two groups that’d warrant a “Destiny’s edge version 2!” title.

Maybe you should try and look then to see the similarities. You can’t see a whole lot with your eyes closed dear.

Many of the members of this new group, are related directly or indirectly to members of Destiny’s Edge. Taimi is the Ward of Zojja. Braham is the son of Eir. Rox is trying to join Rytlock’s warband.

Plus they feature a member of almost every class and race, much like Destiny’s Edge. They have clearly been designed to be the new player companions for upcoming Living Story, as a replacement for the less popular Destiny’s Edge.

And Marjory/Kasmeer are related to Logan, how? He hired them to do a single job.

Instead of constantly comparing them to other groups, I look at them by themselves. I don’t see them staying together after Scarlet dies/defeated.

Rox to Rytlock. Besides the fact she wants into his warband, there isn’t any more alike for them besides “They are charr” Personalities are completely different.

Braham to Eir. Related for one, norn for another, both go with wolf. Other then that, personalities are different, Braham specifically wants to separate him legend from his mothers…

Marjory/Kasmmer to logan. They are human, and that’s it. There is literally no relationship shown between them besides “He hired Marjory to investigate Theo’s death. that’s it.”

Taimi to Zoijja. Both Asura, both females, both smart. Taimi’s personality is a far cry from Zoijja’s trying to be helpful and sharing what she knows.

I’m not really seeing major similarities besides “A group formed out of the different races of Tyria with varying classes.” Which I think it hardly enough to label them “DE. 2.0!” personally. While there are some, the characters themselves are different.

Look, they fulfill a similar role to Destiny’s Edge in the Living Story, that Destiny’s Edge fulfills in our personal story. In that regard they are sort of a Destiny’s edge 2.0, but better written in my opinion. It really isn’t such an odd comparison as you’re making it out to be.

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Rox, Braham, Marjory, Kasmeer, and Taimi are referred to internally as “B-Iconics” (or Biconics) as opposed to our “A-Iconics” or main iconic characters, Caithe, Rytlock, Eir, Zojja, and Logan. They are not a “replacement” for Destiny’s Edge; these characters fulfill a different role in the story. Because members of Destiny’s Edge are so entwined with your Personal Story as well as the over-arching story with Zhaitan, and because the Living World plot lines are taking place at the same time all those other story threads, we couldn’t have the members of Destiny’s Edge splitting themselves between these other areas and what was going on with Living World. This is partly why we introduced these new characters.

B-iconics, A-iconics. Basically a new group of characters similar to Destiny’s edge in set up, but for the Living Story, and not similar in personalities. Basically what I was saying.

I shouldn’t have said ‘replacement’, but they fulfill a similar role. I don’t think it’s strange or unjust when some players call them Destiny’s Edge 2.0.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Look, they fulfill a similar role to Destiny’s Edge in the Living Story, that Destiny’s Edge fulfills in our personal story. In that regard they are sort of a Destiny’s edge 2.0, but better written in my opinion. It really isn’t such an odd comparison as you’re making it out to be.

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Rox, Braham, Marjory, Kasmeer, and Taimi are referred to internally as “B-Iconics” (or Biconics) as opposed to our “A-Iconics” or main iconic characters, Caithe, Rytlock, Eir, Zojja, and Logan. They are not a “replacement” for Destiny’s Edge; these characters fulfill a different role in the story. Because members of Destiny’s Edge are so entwined with your Personal Story as well as the over-arching story with Zhaitan, and because the Living World plot lines are taking place at the same time all those other story threads, we couldn’t have the members of Destiny’s Edge splitting themselves between these other areas and what was going on with Living World. This is partly why we introduced these new characters.

B-iconics, A-iconics. Basically a new group of characters similar to Destiny’s edge in set up, but for the Living Story, and not similar in personalities. Basically what I was saying.

I shouldn’t have said ‘replacement’, but they fulfill a similar role. I don’t think it’s strange or unjust when some players call them Destiny’s Edge 2.0.

Except that a 2.0 implies that the 1.0 is old, unnecessary, has been replaced, improved upon etc.

This is just a completely separate group. So yeah maybe calling them DE 2.0 isn’t completely unjust – it’s still wrong.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Except that a 2.0 implies that the 1.0 is old, unnecessary, has been replaced, improved upon etc.

This is just a completely separate group. So yeah maybe calling them DE 2.0 isn’t completely unjust – it’s still wrong.

They could also just call it DE 2, instead of DE 2.0. Does it really matter? And I wouldn’t say it’s really wrong either. The current Living Story updates have kind of pushed the original Destiny’s Edge a bit to the background. Logan appears briefly, but isn’t very prominent in the story. Rytlock inspects some probes, but again we don’t actually meet him during any of the cut scenes (except a short cameo in Rox’s story). So they’ve clearly not retired the old gang. They’ve just shifted the spotlight to this new group. In light of that, is it that wrong to call them DE 2.0? I personally don’t call them that, but I can’t blame people for doing so.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Look, they fulfill a similar role to Destiny’s Edge in the Living Story, that Destiny’s Edge fulfills in our personal story. In that regard they are sort of a Destiny’s edge 2.0, but better written in my opinion. It really isn’t such an odd comparison as you’re making it out to be.

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Rox, Braham, Marjory, Kasmeer, and Taimi are referred to internally as “B-Iconics” (or Biconics) as opposed to our “A-Iconics” or main iconic characters, Caithe, Rytlock, Eir, Zojja, and Logan. They are not a “replacement” for Destiny’s Edge; these characters fulfill a different role in the story. Because members of Destiny’s Edge are so entwined with your Personal Story as well as the over-arching story with Zhaitan, and because the Living World plot lines are taking place at the same time all those other story threads, we couldn’t have the members of Destiny’s Edge splitting themselves between these other areas and what was going on with Living World. This is partly why we introduced these new characters.

B-iconics, A-iconics. Basically a new group of characters similar to Destiny’s edge in set up, but for the Living Story, and not similar in personalities. Basically what I was saying.

I shouldn’t have said ‘replacement’, but they fulfill a similar role. I don’t think it’s strange or unjust when some players call them Destiny’s Edge 2.0.

Except that a 2.0 implies that the 1.0 is old, unnecessary, has been replaced, improved upon etc.

This is just a completely separate group. So yeah maybe calling them DE 2.0 isn’t completely unjust – it’s still wrong.

“Fine, you can be crummy DE 1.0, we’ll be DE A.”

“Or the Mongooses. That’s a cool guild name. The Fighting Mongooses.”

No denigration meant, yeah, I just call them that sometimes too as a matter of convenience. I really like both groups though! Anet’s doing a lovely job with the new characters.

I wish we could see DE throw in some times too, but I get that the personal story needs them to still be in certain roles for new players. I hope that’s not a “for perpetuity” thing though. It’d be nice to see them accomplish some stuff beyond Zhaitan at some point.

Pirlipat.2479:

I haven’t read the entire thread but I just wanted to say that I like this Kasmeer-Majory relationship, because it’s just a normal drama-free relationship of normal people.

>drama free
>’normal relationship’

god kitten i wish i had a ‘normal relationship’

Tybalt and Faren have firm reasons to be in the story and as prominent as they are. Tybalt is your order mentor, his role on Tyria and your story is firmly defined and makes a lot of sense. Faren’s role is as your best friend. He fleshes out a character’s back story as a human noble and the politics and lifestyle of Divinity’s Reach. This is all important because it’s part of your personal story as a human noble.

Why are Marjory or Kasmeer (think of them as individuals and not as a pair) important in the story? Question their presence in every update they are in. Is this the most appropriate character in Tyria to fill this roll? Is there another character in Tyria that makes more sense in this roll? Why is this character her right now? During the Personal Story (or even interacting with NPCs out in the open world) most characters have a clear purpose or role they perform that explains why they are there instead of somewhere else, or why they are there instead of someone else.

People keep talking about how portraying relationships in Tyria is important for world building (let’s keep in mind that applies to friendships as well – if you going to critique Marjory and Kasmeer’s romance why not critique Logan and Rytlock’s bromance?) but I think Marjory and Kasmeer are missing one thing that is important for a character – a purpose in the story.

During Dragon Bash it made some sense that Marjory was there. She’s an investigator and there was a murder. Honestly, I think she was unnecessary (Kiel could have done the job) but Marjory had a purpose there. She pops up again during the Tower events. Why? In the landscape of Tyria she is a minor character. She doesn’t work for the orders (she’s on leave from the Priory) so she doesn’t represent their involvement there and she has a living to make. Is it just coincidence? Now she’s creating a cure for the toxin – why not the hylek, the people who taught Scarlet what she knows about toxins. The same with Kasmeer. She’s suddenly the go to expert when it comes to mesmer magic in Tyria?

Cut to the Marionette, just outside the Priory HQ and the Priory aren’t seen doing anything. They wait two weeks for these guys to move onto something else before they decide to get involved (with a whopping five man team – compare that to Tequatl).

Now that they’ve left the Marionette and Priory NPCs start acting like they exist in Tyria, the scenes in the bar are completely bizarre. So Scarlet’s armies have directly attacked Hoelbrak, the Black Citadel, Divinity’s Reach, Lion’s Arch and she’s built two massive weapons (the Tower bioweapon and the Marionette cannon thing) and the whole “mystery” is worked on and solved by these random people in a bar of all places? The only current order member (aside from the player – who isn’t acting as part of their order) is simply there to hand over all their collected data so a random minor character in Tyria can do what everyone else is not doing.

These characters don’t make sense as the central figures of this story in Tyria. What you’re left with is a bunch of dialogue about their relationship with each other. I haven’t seen the story define why these are the people I’m following around every two weeks (compared to how strongly positioned the other characters were) but I have seen the story spend a lot of time going on about their relationship with each other, so much so that it’s difficult to view them as individuals. They are defined by each other, not by their role in the story, I think that’s where a lot of the issues lie.

That Flameseeker Chronicles blog calls this the greatest Guild Wars 2 lovestory ever told and it positively compared it to Gwen and Thackeray’s story but there is a key difference, Gwen is a prominent character in Tyria. She is iconic (in a true sense, I don’t think Marjory and Kasmeer are iconic of the Living Story, they are incidental to it) of pre-Searing Ascalon. She represents the survivors of Ascalon in EotN. She’s a prominent member of the Ebon Vanguard and so is Keiran. These characters mattered in the story and if you took their relationship away they would still be very important figures. Marjory and Kasmeer are constantly wedged into the plot but their primary purpose seems to be their relationship to each other (romantic or otherwise) rather than the logical role they play in these events.

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Rox, Braham, Marjory, Kasmeer, and Taimi are referred to internally as “B-Iconics” (or Biconics) as opposed to our “A-Iconics” or main iconic characters, Caithe, Rytlock, Eir, Zojja, and Logan. They are not a “replacement” for Destiny’s Edge; these characters fulfill a different role in the story. Because members of Destiny’s Edge are so entwined with your Personal Story as well as the over-arching story with Zhaitan, and because the Living World plot lines are taking place at the same time all those other story threads, we couldn’t have the members of Destiny’s Edge splitting themselves between these other areas and what was going on with Living World. This is partly why we introduced these new characters.

That’s pretty logical, but just this part…

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Because members of Destiny’s Edge are so entwined with your Personal Story as well as the over-arching story with Zhaitan, and because the Living World plot lines are taking place at the same time all those other story threads, we couldn’t have the members of Destiny’s Edge splitting themselves between these other areas and what was going on with Living World.

I thought that canonically, the Living Story events all took place after the defeat of Zhaitan by the Pact? Yes, it would probably get a bit confusing for a new player who’s doing both concurrently, but you can at least pull them aside and tell them “everything that happens in the Personal Story happened FIRST. The Living Story is what happened after the events in the Personal Story.”

DE: Little Thom, Reyna, Alesia, Lina, Claude, Dunham, Orion

Living story orgy: Timera, Abasi, Kihm, Odurra, Herta, Sogolon, Gehraz~ + Cynn/Mhenlo in terms of investment (and no i didnt use the Thackeray line since they were bloody boring past the Gwen maybe got grapes in charr slavery times)

MISSING (in terms of actual investment): Devona, Aidan, Eve.

There but pushed aside and turned from kitten to mamas boy: Initiate Zei Ri/General Morgahn (take your pick depending on which southsun event you enjoyed more, aka if you did or didnt dc during en mass precursor drops).

I don’t get why you’re listing GW1 characters Andele?
If you mean it as a parallel I would have to disagree.
You’ve listed Nightfall Henchmen – who have absolutely zero character development and because Nightfall had Heroes (and eventually we got 7 hero teams) you could literally go through the entire game without ever talking to a single one of them. Compare them with the prophecies henchmen who at least had some backstory and occasionally quests (Orion, Little Thom etc had quests about them).

Devona had pretty decent development in pre-searing Ascalon.

Honestly I just don’t think you can make a comparison between how characters were handled in GW1 to how they are in GW2 because in GW1 it was all over the show. Sometimes the “main” henchmen weren’t really ever focussed on – sometimes they were. Then occasionally there would be a major character who also happened to be one of the usually ignored group of henchmen – e.g. Danika.

I think Lesbian relationships in a game are much more interesting than “Ozzie and Harriet”

That being said, why are you not whining about the “gay” relationship of Logan and Rytlock? I sense a huge double standard. It’s OK for guys only?

Come on people, this is an MMO. To be concerned about the social ramifications of a relationship between two minor members of the supporting cast shows a depth of perversion or at least immaturity in the players freaked out about it. That’s what’s disturbing about this thread.

I think y’all need to grow up some and leave your prudery at the door.

Andele.1306:

Ok let me say it like this: Its funny how on Tyria there are less openly homosexual or bisexual couples and groups than irl in terms of animals (which average at 15% in terms of consistent data for the first and between 40-80% in situational records for the second).

As I said to someone else earlier in this thread, you are trying to apply real world demographics to a fictional fantasy realm. Tyria is not Earth, and you shouldn’t assume they are the same in all regards.

The only way you are mostly getting your numbers for “openly homosexual or bisexual couples and groups” npcs in Tyria is through open dialogue. Not everyone talks about their sex life publicly though, much less in front of random strangers (the player) that could listen in. So unless you want all the npcs to suddenly do so, there is no way to get accurate numbers regarding sexual orientation in Tyria.

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Because members of Destiny’s Edge are so entwined with your Personal Story as well as the over-arching story with Zhaitan, and because the Living World plot lines are taking place at the same time all those other story threads, we couldn’t have the members of Destiny’s Edge splitting themselves between these other areas and what was going on with Living World.

Wait is it me or are you saying Living Story is taking place at the same time as the personal story? That’s interesting, it seemed like the primary assumption was that the Living Word was taking place after the Personal Story.

CureForLiving.5360:

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Because members of Destiny’s Edge are so entwined with your Personal Story as well as the over-arching story with Zhaitan, and because the Living World plot lines are taking place at the same time all those other story threads, we couldn’t have the members of Destiny’s Edge splitting themselves between these other areas and what was going on with Living World.

Wait is it me or are you saying Living Story is taking place at the same time as the personal story? That’s interesting, it seemed like the primary assumption was that the Living Word was taking place after the Personal Story.

Somebody in the Molten Alliance arc goes “Wait, why is a commander of the Pact here? Aren’t you all supposed to be off fighting dragons?” And somebody (in another topic) mentioned Anet saying the Pact was currently in a “rebuild forces, plan next anti dragon move, plan which dragon to go after.” stage.

Sarrs.4831:

Pirlipat.2479:

I haven’t read the entire thread but I just wanted to say that I like this Kasmeer-Majory relationship, because it’s just a normal drama-free relationship of normal people.

>drama free
>‘normal relationship’

god kitten i wish i had a ‘normal relationship’

Normal is probably the wrong word. With “normal” I mean something that doesn’t look like it’s just taken out of a romance or a Hollywood tearjerker.

Shiren.9532:

During Dragon Bash it made some sense that Marjory was there. She’s an investigator and there was a murder. Honestly, I think she was unnecessary (Kiel could have done the job) but Marjory had a purpose there. She pops up again during the Tower events. Why? In the landscape of Tyria she is a minor character. She doesn’t work for the orders (she’s on leave from the Priory) so she doesn’t represent their involvement there and she has a living to make. Is it just coincidence? Now she’s creating a cure for the toxin – why not the hylek, the people who taught Scarlet what she knows about toxins.

I think this is a really strong argument. You’ve basically pointed out how various characters get shoe-horned into the story, when there already are way more suitable characters that can fill the role. What they could have done, is have Marjory hand the toxin sample to the player, and ask the player to see the Hyleks to find a cure, while she works on a device to inject it into the tree.

But why did Marjory pop up at the Tower of Nightmares to begin with? She instantly went from shady back alley PI to public figure.

I thought Marjory went to Kessex and got involved because Kasmeer got involved. The “Great and Gorgeous Mesmer Collective” contacted Kasmeer to go look at the barrier/illusion the Toxic Alliance set up in the lake. Marjory tagged along to keep an eye on Kasmeer and to probably help her investigate.

Why Marjory got involved with the events at the lake later, is probably because she had a sense of decency. The Toxic Alliance were trying to kill and poison an entire region after all, and she had the abilities and skill sets to help people. So she did. Afterwards, she saw Scarlet as a threat to Tyria itself, so she continued on trying to take her down.

I think that’s the problem, though- Marjory was essentially there as Kasmeer’s sidekick, but as soon as the illusion was down she shunted not only Kasmeer, but every other character present to the side and once again become the focus of events, on account of talents hitherto unsuspected. Yes, looking back, it can all be justified, but that doesn’t change that it was a shoehorn.

Is it possible for a-net to start to create a broad and diverse world and still win? Any presence of homosexual relationships is an “agenda” that is “forced upon us”. Two separate groups of heroes in an entire continent? “But why not someone else?” or “Boo, they’re clearly the same thing because they are NPC’s who do stuff”.

In a giant evolving world, a-net can only focus on a few things at any one time. I’m happy to look at more stuff in a bigger world (one at a time) than wish it was less stuff in a smaller, more bland world (all at once) because it actually feels like Im exploring and discovering a new world. Which, I think is a-nets intention.

I don’t think anyone in this thread has anything against a portrayal of same-sex relationships in a videogame. Most of us are specifically addressing the writing, which should be open to criticism.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Yes, looking back, it can all be justified, but that doesn’t change that it was a shoehorn.

Meh, leading characters are always going to get shoehorned into the story one way or another. If she wasn’t there to begin with, we would have probably been sent to get her from DR with the excuse, “She was a Ministry Guard that worked a lot of cases dealing with assassinated nobles, so she’s a poison expert.”

Erukk.1408:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Yes, looking back, it can all be justified, but that doesn’t change that it was a shoehorn.

Meh, leading characters are always going to get shoehorned into the story one way or another. If she wasn’t there to begin with, we would have probably been sent to get her from DR with the excuse, “She was a Ministry Guard that worked a lot of cases dealing with assassinated nobles, so she’s a poison expert.”

Still, it’s nice when they put in the trouble to craft an excuse. Or, better yet, a cause.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I don’t think anyone in this thread has anything against a portrayal of same-sex relationships in a videogame. Most of us are specifically addressing the writing, which should be open to criticism.

There are definitely those who weren’t speaking simply to the writing. But even for those that were, a lot of the criticism I see is just calling for another of the infinite valid options that a-net could have chosen to focus on.

i.e.: DE2.0 it is entirely possible that more than one group of heroes can do things in an entire continent full of enemies and danger. So what is the valid criticism that it isn’t all handled by the same small group? Even if one member “could have” been useful in the situation. People get pretty ridiculous with their complaints. Trying to disguise it as valid criticism is really just an effort to try to validate needless whining.

It can be likened to complaining that there exists two strong races in an entire world. It’s really an effort to shrink the world down to simplicity. “A-net, why make norn and kodan? they are both big friendly species” I imagine the only answer a-net would bother giving is “Well, heck. Why not? It makes the world bigger and more interesting” …..but then the ‘criticism’ becomes “No, it is just a way of shoe horning in another race when there is already one that can fill the role”.

this is why gamers are really their own worst enemy. We want there to be a problem so we can complain. And if a-net is fool enough to bow to our fickle demands, we kill the game.

Dustfinger.9510:

It can be likened to complaining that there exists two strong races in an entire world. It’s really an effort to shrink the world down to simplicity. “A-net, why make norn and kodan? they are both big friendly species” I imagine the only answer a-net would bother giving is “Well, heck. Why not? It makes the world bigger and more interesting” …..but then the ‘criticism’ becomes “No, it is just a way of shoe horning in another race when there is already one that can fill the role”.

That’s not true at all. Having both the norn and the kodan is worldbuilding; it enhances the believability of the world. When a character cuts in front of those that said worldbuilding has established are better qualified for the role by pulling a relevant ability our of the blue, it detriments believability.

For myself, I don’t really mind that Marjory was at the middle of Tower of Nightmares- the character development that her inclusion was an excuse for was worth the cost- but nonetheless, the way ANet handled it did ensure that there was a cost.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Dustfinger.9510:

It can be likened to complaining that there exists two strong races in an entire world. It’s really an effort to shrink the world down to simplicity. “A-net, why make norn and kodan? they are both big friendly species” I imagine the only answer a-net would bother giving is “Well, heck. Why not? It makes the world bigger and more interesting” …..but then the ‘criticism’ becomes “No, it is just a way of shoe horning in another race when there is already one that can fill the role”.

That’s not true at all. Having both the norn and the kodan is worldbuilding; it enhances the believability of the world. When a character cuts in front of those that said worldbuilding has established are better qualified for the role by pulling a relevant ability our of the blue, it detriments believability.

For myself, I don’t really mind that Marjory was at the middle of Tower of Nightmares- the character development that her inclusion was an excuse for was worth the cost- but nonetheless, the way ANet handled it did ensure that there was a cost.

The cost I see is the lack of omnipresence for that one character that is best equipped for each situation. But putting in a second best character becomes world building as well because it shows that that one best character isn’t so far above the rest of the world that they are completley irreplaceable. It alludes to a greater population that can also be of use in this world ending catastrophy.

But with all the hatred toward Tre…….. he that shall not be named, it doesn’t seem like a cost worth complaining about at all.

edit: and a greater population of people with helpful skills seems more believable than everyone we come across needing to be the ‘chosen one’ of each situation.

Dustfinger.9510:

The cost I see is the lack of omnipresence for that one character that is best equipped for each situation. But putting in a second best character becomes world building as well because it shows that that one best character isn’t so far above the rest of the world that they are completley irreplaceable. It alludes to a greater population that can also be of use in this world ending catastrophy.

But to use Malafide’s example: why not a hylek? Poison and antipoison aficionados, and they were right there, so it was a matter of life and death for them. Instead we get a human imported from Divinity’s Reach, just because she was important to the plot four months earlier, who knew about poisons only as a matter of luck. How does that allude to a greater population of competents?

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Rox, Braham, Marjory, Kasmeer, and Taimi are referred to internally as “B-Iconics” (or Biconics) as opposed to our “A-Iconics” or main iconic characters, Caithe, Rytlock, Eir, Zojja, and Logan. They are not a “replacement” for Destiny’s Edge; these characters fulfill a different role in the story. Because members of Destiny’s Edge are so entwined with your Personal Story as well as the over-arching story with Zhaitan, and because the Living World plot lines are taking place at the same time all those other story threads, we couldn’t have the members of Destiny’s Edge splitting themselves between these other areas and what was going on with Living World. This is partly why we introduced these new characters.

Hold the phone.

Are we now to assume that the events of the Living Story are occuring concurrently with the events of the Personal Story? I thought we had some fairly concrete ingame dates (especially from the last patch) which confirm that the personal story occured in 1324-25AE and the Living Story is now in 1327AE.

What’s the deal Regina?

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Rox, Braham, Marjory, Kasmeer, and Taimi are referred to internally as “B-Iconics” (or Biconics) as opposed to our “A-Iconics” or main iconic characters, Caithe, Rytlock, Eir, Zojja, and Logan. They are not a “replacement” for Destiny’s Edge; these characters fulfill a different role in the story. Because members of Destiny’s Edge are so entwined with your Personal Story as well as the over-arching story with Zhaitan, and because the Living World plot lines are taking place at the same time all those other story threads, we couldn’t have the members of Destiny’s Edge splitting themselves between these other areas and what was going on with Living World. This is partly why we introduced these new characters.

Arena Net needs to get this straight. Matthew has said in the past:

MatthewMedina.5419:

Canonically, yes the Lost Shores weekend and lead-up was set after the events of the Guild Wars 2 personal story and the defeat of Zhaitan, so this is partially what made it possible for the karka to establish a clawhold on Southsun Cove.

As has been pointed out to Bobby Stein countless times it isn’t possible for both to occur simultaneously as things like the Aetherblades stealing Pact airships does not make sense if the player hasn’t formed the Pact yet. If you think this would confuse players new to the game, then you can add a few things to help them out:

• An in game interface displaying the official timeline of events. When they complete a personal story step instead of having a list of personal story steps have a marker on the timeline they can hover over to see when it occurred. Do the same for Living Story events and other interesting events in Tyria’s history. I would just love this type of interface myself.

• When starting a new character insert a new dialogue says this is a tale of Tyria’s history, where you formed the Pact and fought Zhaitan.

• Add a message or other contextual cues to personal story instances that blatantly point out these events happened in the past.

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Rox, Braham, Marjory, Kasmeer, and Taimi are referred to internally as “B-Iconics” (or Biconics) as opposed to our “A-Iconics” or main iconic characters, Caithe, Rytlock, Eir, Zojja, and Logan. They are not a “replacement” for Destiny’s Edge; these characters fulfill a different role in the story. Because members of Destiny’s Edge are so entwined with your Personal Story as well as the over-arching story with Zhaitan, and because the Living World plot lines are taking place at the same time all those other story threads, we couldn’t have the members of Destiny’s Edge splitting themselves between these other areas and what was going on with Living World. This is partly why we introduced these new characters.

Wait… What? No.

The LS happens AFTER the defeat of Zhaitan. This started with the Lost Shores event when it was said that Zhaitan was dead at this point and all of LS was to follow was to continue a story after his defeat. To have this going on while Zhaitan is happening doesn’t make any sense at all. We will even have more timeline issues pop up as you would need to figure out at what points the LS takes place in the Personal Story. This just causes more continuity issues and just spirals downward from there. The next LS is going to have LA burn. How would this even FIT in the Personal Story arc? Even if you somehow did manage to do this, you would have plenty of characters with dialogue that wouldn’t even recognize this event which would then just cause more holes.

Considering Destiny’s Edge- Here’s a point: In Bloodtide coast, Rytlock is personally scouting out these probes with a team of Iron Legion soldiers. If he was off trying to fight Zhaitan/his own personal story, then why is he here?

I hope you folks are seriously not considering the LS is happening at the same time as the Personal Story, and this is just a slip up on the post. I also would hope that everyone on the team can get this stuff straight so that this confusion doesn’t happen.

Ah, that makes a bit more sense. Thanks for the clarification Bobby.

BobbyStein.2315:

DragoTheWise.7256:

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Because members of Destiny’s Edge are so entwined with your Personal Story as well as the over-arching story with Zhaitan, and because the Living World plot lines are taking place at the same time all those other story threads, we couldn’t have the members of Destiny’s Edge splitting themselves between these other areas and what was going on with Living World. This is partly why we introduced these new characters.

I hope you folks are seriously not considering the LS is happening at the same time as the Personal Story, and this is just a slip up on the post. I also would hope that everyone on the team can get this stuff straight so that this confusion doesn’t happen.

What Regina means is that for players who are currently going through their Personal Story, the LW timeline will seem to be happening at the same time. Technically, they happen at different times in Tyrian history. Personal Story predates the current Living World season by approximately one year.

So when you’re playing your Personal Story and are in an instance with Rytlock, etc. the assumption is that this is happening “in the past” whereas LW events are happening now.

Our hope is to provide better distinction of these timelines within the game, but that would come with the release of a planned feature that we’re not ready to discuss in depth just yet.

Ok. That is a lot more clear on the subject. Thank you for clarifying that.

BobbyStein.2315:

Our hope is to provide better distinction of these timelines within the game, but that would come with the release of a planned feature that we’re not ready to discuss in depth just yet.

Please be the timeline suggested here and in the first CDI.

BobbyStein.2315:

DragoTheWise.7256:

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Because members of Destiny’s Edge are so entwined with your Personal Story as well as the over-arching story with Zhaitan, and because the Living World plot lines are taking place at the same time all those other story threads, we couldn’t have the members of Destiny’s Edge splitting themselves between these other areas and what was going on with Living World. This is partly why we introduced these new characters.

I hope you folks are seriously not considering the LS is happening at the same time as the Personal Story, and this is just a slip up on the post. I also would hope that everyone on the team can get this stuff straight so that this confusion doesn’t happen.

What Regina means is that for players who are currently going through their Personal Story, the LW timeline will seem to be happening at the same time. Technically, they happen at different times in Tyrian history. Personal Story predates the current Living World season by approximately one year.

So when you’re playing your Personal Story and are in an instance with Rytlock, etc. the assumption is that this is happening “in the past” whereas LW events are happening now.

Our hope is to provide better distinction of these timelines within the game, but that would come with the release of a planned feature that we’re not ready to discuss in depth just yet.

That’s kinda what I assumed she meant. ""PS and LS events both take part in Kessex hills. So somebody doing PS in That area might think they happen at same time, so the heroes aren’t exactly the same for both."

Honestly, I think one thing you could do (If I may suggest this), Do the current log of PS missions, but place a date marker on each one. Like a journal. "Saved my sister from a bandit/centaur camp (I forget which one), March (whatever the year is). Day optional. Then for each mission you place that, so you can easily see “Oh, it took us 6 months to go from claw island to defeating Zhaitain.” or “My character was a member of their order for 4 months before Claw island, okay.”

Also, I’d totally love to see those PS items (listed in the hero panel) to actually appear somewhere. Can’t wait to see what you mean by timeline linking to something unannounced though.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Dustfinger.9510:

The cost I see is the lack of omnipresence for that one character that is best equipped for each situation. But putting in a second best character becomes world building as well because it shows that that one best character isn’t so far above the rest of the world that they are completley irreplaceable. It alludes to a greater population that can also be of use in this world ending catastrophy.

But to use Malafide’s example: why not a hylek? Poison and antipoison aficionados, and they were right there, so it was a matter of life and death for them. Instead we get a human imported from Divinity’s Reach, just because she was important to the plot four months earlier, who knew about poisons only as a matter of luck. How does that allude to a greater population of competents?

Why not a kodan alchemist? Or any other valid option in the entirety of the whole continent? because out of the millions of valid options, they can only really pick one thing to actually happen. Does that option always have to be a cliché of an entire race? No it doesn’t. That is what alludes to a greater population of competants. because the situation doesn’t always need to cliché ‘chosen one’ to solve it.

Posted this a while back, couldn’t find the rest of it on my computer but I’ll look