Guild Wars 2

We aren’t saying he isn’t bad. We’re just saying he isn’t the moustache twirling evil villain that most people believe he is. It’s all about the shades of grey. Minus him possibly enslaving souls, which probably deals with his kind of necromancy, all the characteristics you listed are shared by most of the ancient conquering rulers/warlords. Even the popular ones like Alexander the Great.

He left rivers of blood wherever he went, and he sold whole tribes into slavery when they opposed him. He also sold the entire population of Thebas into slavery as well. All to help pay for his war campaign, and you know… they resisted him. He could be easily called a monster by most people of today. Yet back then, it was just how they did things, and he is still called “the Great” by everyone today.

It’s all about perception in the end.

Pavees.7281:

-snip-

1. 200 years of imprisonment changes people, for better or for worst, as does having to work with good guys. I’m not saying he’s a great guy. But we don’t know the full situation for his “enslavement” (hell, given the centaur’s overall respect for earth and natural things, they’d hate undead right from the get go I’m sure, and wouldn’t simply see him as a leader – so it’s not that odd for Joko to go about enslaving or killing off groups that would fight him to the death be he good or not).
2. I’m taking my reference for what he is actually said to do when he conquers Elona and not what he did before or what he said he would do. Specifically, from The Movement of the World – all of the horrible things he did was when he was warring. Afterwards, so long as people didn’t rebel it sounds like he’s no worse than the guy next door. Of course, the wording’s skewed as it should be, given how in terms of lore, the information is from the refugees (same goes for Usoku).
3. Enslaving doesn’t make a monster, really. Or would you say that those who had indentured servants were monsters? Slavery is bad, yes, but enslaving is often a needed thing in earlier or young kingdoms – moreso when said kingdom is made through conquest. You’ll be an enemy, whether you’re a good guy or not (hell, I doubt morality comes into play there), and there will be people rebelling against you. You have three choices: kill them, enslave them, or exile them. The best of these would be enslavement – because if you exile them, they’ll just do what Rurik planned to do (build up forces elsewhere and “take back” their land).
4. I was only making a comment about how Narcemus’ explanation for Joko’s persona is worse than it actually is. He wasn’t going about enslavement – the worst of Joko’s crimes and hardly all that evil in of itself – but Joko being a powerhungry bloke who was always interested in conquering as much land as he could, and not what we know or having indication of: that being he’s just interested in Elona.

To clarify: YES JOKO IS A BAD GUY – since you all don’t seem to think I’m saying that, I’ll bold and cap it for you. However, I don’t think he’s as bad as you claim. The worst of his actions are done for the initial act of conquering. Including – or rather, especially – his historical actions prior to Nightfall. And when he’s not conquering, what’s he doing? Fighting Elder Dragon minions and helping in destroying fallen gods (albeit, the latter was mainly due to a “you scratch my back I’ll scratch yours” deal – that he actually kept. So much for being a backstabber, eh?).

His betrayals, his enslavements, his causing famines. These were all steps for his goal of conquering Elona and only Elona. After he conquered Elona, his rule softened as per the Movement of the World. He manages water rationing in a desert land no different than the previous leaders of Kourna did at the Mahnkelon Waterworks. Like any ruler would, he ensured as few rebellions as possible when he conquered hostile land, and in the “kinder” way to some folks’ perspective (enslavement over death). He removed the greatest threat (Sunspears) but did not indiscriminately kill them – he gave them all a chance to work for him or to not, and those who did not he didn’t even say he killed but it just says that they were “scattered to the winds”. The only group he was unjustly cruel against is the Ossa’s clan – though with being defeated and imprisoned by Turai, then having his throne taken from him by Varesh, it’s not all that unreasonable and hating the children of a man is common not just for individuals but governments and societies too. Even in modern societies, folks associated by blood with murderers are often shunned to the point of them changing their names.

In short: If you call Joko a monster, you’re calling most – if not every war-related – ancient ruler a monster. If you call him a monster for slavery, then you’re calling just about every ruler and nobleman up to the American Civil War’s time a monster. And many of those people weren’t.

Ok I have to point out a logic fallacy. You say we’re wrong because of speculation of what he might do and then say with speculation his time being imprisoned changed him when there’s no evidence to support that. It’s one thing to conquer nations but even when people submitted willingly he slaughtered them for no reason but a whim.

Also just because he’s keeping people alive doesn’t mean he’s doing it out of kindness. Given he’s sort of sadistic he could just be keeping people alive so he has people to rule over because if everything is dead then he wouldn’t have a way to replenish his troops if they were to fall to zhaitan or krak. Remember joko is immortal he could be playing a long term game since years mean nothing to him(which 200 years not moving to an immortal is like moments by comparison so your whole “changing due to time” doesn’t have any ground to stand on given he curses the ossa blood line with crazy like zeal) Also working with the heroes allowed us to kill varresh for him and help him build up his forces so he could make his move(he’s not stupid remember he plays long term chess essentially).

If you wanna make any sense think for a moment, why even make joko an obvious monster with enslaving souls, killing innocents, and causing mass famine and disease if not to give us reasons to go out there? Also what part of KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO ALREADY SURRENDED WITHOUT A FIGHT suddenly makes him not as bad we’re making him out to be when there is rather clear evidence to the contrary?

The prince who ruled those people offered his life so his people wouldn’t have to die. what happens? he kills them for giggles. Now you can be put your fingers in your ears and go “la la la” all day but common sense fantasy story wise is painting this guy black in a white and black good and evil way (this game rarely if any has any gray zones). He’s gonna do something evil stupid and we’re gonna go to elona, things are gonna suck we’ll save the day cliche like.

Last note if you’re defending slavery then you aren’t one to have a respectable moral ground to stand on and preach. I know morality is debatable but given you’re defending whole sale slaughter and enslaving souls(yes enslaving souls that’s why he got races like centaurs to obey also including that prince he slaughtered but the prince can’t do anything but obey joko because his soul is enslaved i.e. like prince rurik was by the lich of prophecies) i’m having a hard time seeing him as anything but a cruel tyrant.

Pavees.7281:

Ok I have to point out a logic fallacy. You say we’re wrong because of speculation of what he might do and then say with speculation his time being imprisoned changed him when there’s no evidence to support that.

sigh

Narcemus was stating that the Pact will go after Joko because Joko will want to conquer continental Tyria.

I was stating that Joko COULD have changed, but that even if he didn’t, he’s not as bad as he’s being made out to be and that he won’t necessarily go on a hellbent conquer-all-life-killing-spree like everyone else seems to think.

It’s not a logic fallacy at all.

Pavees.7281:

It’s one thing to conquer nations but even when people submitted willingly he slaughtered them for no reason but a whim.

There’s only one person we know who submitted and that he “slaughtered” – King Sahlahjar. the Dead However, in this case, we only know that the king “submitted willingly.”

Pavees.7281:

Also just because he’s keeping people alive doesn’t mean he’s doing it out of kindness.

Never said that was the case.

Pavees.7281:

Given he’s sort of sadistic he could just be keeping people alive so he has people to rule over because if everything is dead then he wouldn’t have a way to replenish his troops if they were to fall to zhaitan or krak.

How do you get that he’s sadistic, exactly? Other than exacting revenge, he doesn’t really do anything to claim anything all that sadistic.

Pavees.7281:

Remember joko is immortal he could be playing a long term game since years mean nothing to him(which 200 years not moving to an immortal is like moments by comparison so your whole “changing due to time” doesn’t have any ground to stand on given he curses the ossa blood line with crazy like zeal) Also working with the heroes allowed us to kill varresh for him and help him build up his forces so he could make his move(he’s not stupid remember he plays long term chess essentially).

Well, to an immortal who’s lived thousands of years already, sure. But Joko only seems to be about 250 years of age by GW1’s time, having been an “up and coming prince” when Thorn ruled. Besides, that actually works in my favor of what Joko would not attack the Pact. He’d know they’re not a force to be reckoned with, and would rather ally with them until they fall due to time. In this case, he would work with the Pact, promise not to invade, and help take care of the Elder Dragon threats which are just as much of a threat to him as Varesh and Abaddon was. As we both said, he’s not stupid.

Pavees.7281:

If you wanna make any sense think for a moment, why even make joko an obvious monster with enslaving souls, killing innocents, and causing mass famine and disease if not to give us reasons to go out there? Also what part of KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO ALREADY SURRENDED WITHOUT A FIGHT suddenly makes him not as bad we’re making him out to be when there is rather clear evidence to the contrary?

Him conquering Elona is actually a reason for why we’re NOT in Elona in GW2’s beginning, rather than a reason for us to go there. And again: the famine was a means to quickly conquer Elona – and, if you think about it, it’s actually a less bloody means. And think about it: Joko’s known for raising the fallen of the enemy to fight for him so why would he bother with starving them out first? That gives him fewer troops.

And again: one innocent, not many, surrendered to him. We have 0 indication of what Sahlahjar’s people thought of the situation, let alone what they did. And certainly nothing says that Joko “killed them for giggles,”

(next post…)

Pavees.7281:

common sense fantasy story wise is painting this guy black in a white and black good and evil way (this game rarely if any has any gray zones).

You should play more GW2. Anet loves the shades of gray. Though they’ve been losing that a tad bit with the racial enemies of GW2.

Pavees.7281:

Last note if you’re defending slavery then you aren’t one to have a respectable moral ground to stand on and preach.

I wasn’t defending slavery, but rather I was stating how many nations needed it to survive and how many not-evil people went with it. Slavery really isn’t a “good or evil” kind of topic, in my opinion, which was rather the point I was trying to make. There are good people who were pro-slavery in the past, and similarly there were evil people who weren’t. Or rather, people deemed “good” and “evil” by society. For example: Julius Ceasar, celebrated as a really great Roman guy, was pro-slavery. The topic of slavery as good or evil is really only determined by society’s stance – and it’s just today’s age which says “it’s bad.” Mind you, I’m not “pro-slavery” – I’m just not “slavery is evil” either (though I am anti-slavery myself).

Oh, and I never claimed to have a respectable moral ground. I prefer not to give myself a moral standing at all, actually.

Konig. Once in a while admit it you are wrong.

Ofc Palawa changed and is a god ruler and no threat to anyone and is playing with rabbits and butterflies in his Bone Palace.

Then why did he kitten a river to bring drought to a whole continet, enslaving the people and anyone who can do flees Elona?

Tyria won’t let Palawa rule over Elona.

My point on the sadism derives from how he went about destroying the sunspears and how he made the king watch his people die and then still enslaved his soul. I also find it EXTREMELY UNLIKELY he’d only do that 1 horrible act and then never commit it again.

After his imprisonment by ossa he seem’s more paranoid killing every ossa just for the name alone even if they weren’t direct descendant of turai(i will admit i believe paranoia and anger is a key factor for killing anyone with the name ossa because 2 ossa’s so far have given him a run for his money and i doubt he wants another possible chance of one beating him again).

Given the nature of how most nations we’ve seen in gw1 have kings be followed by their people(not always the case) it’s more then likely his people were a peaceful kingdom given the king was aware of joko’s ability to completely destroy them. Also given his battle comments in the eotn tournament he does take joy in the thought of enslaving people and even sparing you if you lose just so he can come back and kill you.(off topic but i’d love if elona had a mission where we fought heroes and the like from gw1 as bound undead just saying).

Gw1 had good shades of gray but gw2 very seldomly approaches shades of gray(inquest and nightmare court are decent picks but the named npcs are straight twirly moustache evil). I also doubt he’d bow to the pact as he did to gw1 heroes because in gw1 we had a shared enemy and i’m betting he wouldn’t trust the pact in long term even pointing out that yes the dragons are a threat but with 1 dead he’d most likely let us fight with kralk then attempt to clean up/go north(speculation on my part).

But on the slavery note it’s not honestly required for ANY civilization to build itself up since even small villages can thrive if anything marshal law is more good then slavery since slaves have zero rights and are treated as such(if no freedom and being considered disposable isn’t evil by most moral standards then you couldn’t begin to see it for what it is until it happens to you).

On the logical fallacy i wasn’t pointing to joko and the pact i was pointing to you saying joko wasn’t a bad guy even when gw1 painted him as such BASED OFF SMALL TID BITS of the movement of the world(that was more of telling us there’s hope and people still alive it puts it out there we’ll have to turn that way eventually) which was all speculation based off vague movement of the world information as opposed to gw1 just broad stroking the guy.

I will say I don’t hold anything ill towards you and don’t hate or mean to disrespect you if i am meaning as such. But joko is honestly what made me hate nightfall because of how stupid our characters in that campaign acted. It was super hero logic of putting our characters morals above thousands if not millions of live so they could be good when if anything it is their fault for knowing the risk he posed and just stood there being dirt for brains. Considering our characters slaughter just for their gods or anyone asking it really just brings bad story to the table when your suspension is ripped by stupid actions.

Gandarel.5091:

Konig. Once in a while admit it you are wrong.

The problem is that this is subjective.

But nonetheless, I digress. And I shall remain on my stance of this:

The Pact won’t instigate Palawa Joko unless he proves to be an active threat more immediate than or on par to the Elder Dragons.

It seems everyone here agrees that Joko – regardless of his stance on the “evil” meter – is no idiot. And given that he’s no idiot, I think we can all agree that he won’t go about instigating the Pact’s forces. Thus the only real matter of debate which this entire string of off-topicness came from is whether or not the Pact would initiate first strike against Joko.

Gandarel.5091:

Tyria won’t let Palawa rule over Elona.

Funny, because they kind of did for 90 years, until they simply didn’t have a say in the matter anymore thanks to Zhaitan.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Gandarel.5091:

Tyria won’t let Palawa rule over Elona.

Funny, because they kind of did for 90 years, until they simply didn’t have a say in the matter anymore thanks to Zhaitan.

Because Kryta alone couldn’t defeat Joko, but 5 races united got some chances.

And Arenanet simply didn’t want to write off an expansion

Hjorje.9453:

Saogai.9105:

The problem with the negative reaction with the Cantha district was the fact that the original area appears as an East Asian “ghetto” towered over by Europeans walls and castle spires. The perceived problem was that the original district was a mix of European and East Asian architecture that did not fit the overall European theme. Not only is there a clash of style, there is an uncomfortable subtle real world implications that the Asians are being dominated by Europeans. (Regardless of actual in game lore.) This will make many first time players from Asia feel negative about its presence. (But would be perfectly fine to have Cantha as an expansion, since its in a different area altogether.)

As such I certainly hope that the removal of Canthan elements from Divinity Reach/ Tyria was only a local one specific to Divinity’s Reach, and certainly hope to be in Cantha in the future GW2 expansion!

This quote right here best sums everything up. I think it makes a lot of since. This is why I believe Cantha will return, but it will be the second or third expansion before it does.

wouw.5837 I have never seen that quote from a dev either. I have been following the Cantha threads and that has never came up. The only thing that has been said is they had to get rid of the Canthan District in DR, which makes since once you read the quote above.

See, I don’t get that quote. How was the canthan district any more a “ghetto” than the elonian district?

@Riot Inducer

Another popular one is the reverse Reese’s peanut butter cup theory…

“You got your Japanese architecture in my Korean!”

“Well your Korean is in my Japanese!”

“And both of yours is in my Chinese!”

“THIS WILL NOT WORK AT ALL!”

Gandarel.5091:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Gandarel.5091:

Tyria won’t let Palawa rule over Elona.

Funny, because they kind of did for 90 years, until they simply didn’t have a say in the matter anymore thanks to Zhaitan.

Because Kryta alone couldn’t defeat Joko, but 5 races united got some chances.

And Arenanet simply didn’t want to write off an expansion

Humans were still allied with norn and asura, and you know how norn love challenges and asura love new fields to experiment with. But still, Kryta did NOTHING and that’s says a lot more than you seem to think.

As to the expansion – who’s to say we’ll be fighting Joko if we go to Elona?

Somehow I see all of Konig’s characters in GW1 standing at Palawa Joko’s side performing all kinds of sadistic acts against the people of Elona, but I can’t be absolutely sure, lol. I don’t understand why Konig seems to think it wise when you are in a military push to conquer areas and then go, leaving your backside completely undefended against parties that are neutral and whose motives we do not fully know. I’m kinda glad he is not leading the pact, lol. This is the last I will post on the subject though, I did not honestly mean to bring the subject of Cantha so far off topic.

Whoever said about leaving sides undefended? Not me – so please, both you and Pavees, stop putting words in my mouth. Having to restate the same things gets tiresome.

Konig, logic says. Logic.

Phew, that was quite the read. And quite the off-topic, too! What a bargain.

Palawa Joko doesn’t want to destroy, he wants to rule. He’s no idiot, either, as stated multiple times here. Between Desolation and Tyrian lands there’s nothing but desert, branded and a big angry dragon. So, in other words, there’s nothing to rule. Directly to the north the mountains are impassable, and sea is no good either, because of DSD and Orr. There is no good way for Palawa Joko to invade Tyria in the current state of things, and he knows this. Now, since river Elon runs through Crystal Desert, it might provide farmland, but again, a big angry dragon is sitting there. If anything, he would help Pact deal with Kralkatorrik in order to claim the land for himself.

Note how Palawa Joko conquered Elona and when. Kournan army was destroyed, Sunspears fatigued from fighting it, and Vabbi had been ravaged by Margonites. Palawa Joko diverts River Elon, the lifeblood of southern Vabbi and most of inhabited Kourna, causing a massive famine where the people had no choice but to bend their knees before him. He clearly doesn’t take risks, and being a lich, he can bide his time. Sure, given enough time he might attempt to try and conquer Tyria, but not as long as Tyrian lands remain capable of defending themselves.

Tuomir.1830:

Phew, that was quite the read. And quite the off-topic, too! What a bargain.

Palawa Joko doesn’t want to destroy, he wants to rule. He’s no idiot, either, as stated multiple times here. Between Desolation and Tyrian lands there’s nothing but desert, branded and a big angry dragon. So, in other words, there’s nothing to rule. Directly to the north the mountains are impassable, and sea is no good either, because of DSD and Orr. There is no good way for Palawa Joko to invade Tyria in the current state of things, and he knows this. Now, since river Elon runs through Crystal Desert, it might provide farmland, but again, a big angry dragon is sitting there. If anything, he would help Pact deal with Kralkatorrik in order to claim the land for himself.

Note how Palawa Joko conquered Elona and when. Kournan army was destroyed, Sunspears fatigued from fighting it, and Vabbi had been ravaged by Margonites. Palawa Joko diverts River Elon, the lifeblood of southern Vabbi and most of inhabited Kourna, causing a massive famine where the people had no choice but to bend their knees before him. He clearly doesn’t take risks, and being a lich, he can bide his time. Sure, given enough time he might attempt to try and conquer Tyria, but not as long as Tyrian lands remain capable of defending themselves.

You and Konig probably mistook what we are sayig. We aren’t saying that Palawa will take over the world.

We are just saying that Palawa is oppressing Elona, slaughtered most of the population. At the worst case, the Pact will throw over Joko after the defeat of the dragons. The Order of Whispers is from Elona, still helping the resistance there. They are known for their political influences in each race, and if needed, I’m sure they will convince the Pact about that Joko is a threat, doesn’t matter if he really is or not.

Also, Palawa wants the Cryastal Desert and maybe Orr too, so after the defeat of Zhaitan only Kralkatorrik left who stops him from that. And the devouring of Orr would make some skirmishes with the pact, which would be another reason.

Zhaitan is dead, only pact troops and remnants of undead are waging war there. With no real forts, no real nation to devour, only two factios fighting each other, Orr can be considered as an easy prey for him.

We will have to fight Palawa and that’s for sure. Maybe not because of these reasons and events, but we will.

Hmm, nope, did not misunderstand, though I did kinda leave my post halfway through. Just as Palawa Joko isn’t going to make an enemy of the Pact, the Pact, formed to fight the Dragons, wouldn’t wage war on an additional front, doubly so when they have a common enemy. And if there’s one thing Palawa Joko knows, it’s making deals that are advantageous to himself.

How do you know palawa’s intentions? Just curious.

We may fight Palawa Joko at some point, but unless he does something soon, he isn’t a priority and thus the Pact is not going to get involved as a whole. I’m sure the Order of Whispers wants to liberate Elona, and Kryta/Ascalon may be with him; but the other races would need to be convinced that they should care first.

On the Cantha side of things, most of the more recent comments came from Josh Foreman, and they basically boil down to “keep asking for it” (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/How-is-getting-rid-of-Cantha-a-universal-representation-of-humanity/page/2#post1385108). We’ve been told why the Great Collapse is there, but it’s never been said that the same reasoning applies to Cantha.

Gandarel.5091:

How do you know palawa’s intentions? Just curious.

I don’t claim to know his intentions, I predict his possible actions by examining his past ones.

Also, I feel like it should be noted that the undead servants of Palawa Joko retain their memories, self control and will to some extent, and he controls them much like a king or a commander would control an army of living.

Tuomir.1830:

Gandarel.5091:

How do you know palawa’s intentions? Just curious.

I don’t claim to know his intentions, I predict his possible actions by examining his past ones.

Also, I feel like it should be noted that the undead servants of Palawa Joko retain their memories, self control and will to some extent, and he controls them much like a king or a commander would control an army of living.

Well, any of us can be right, but note something.

You guys base your ideas about the GW1 Joko. Back then he had to rebuild, get back the control over his army and land from nothing, and that took a while. He could make the player help him, not because he likes us or he changed, but we were the only ones pending on him.

I base my ideas on the gap between GW1 and GW2. By now he gained back the power, conquered Elona, and no longer needs help. Now, that he has an empire behind him and a large undead army, he can be who he really is.

Gandarel.5091:

Tuomir.1830:

Gandarel.5091:

How do you know palawa’s intentions? Just curious.

I don’t claim to know his intentions, I predict his possible actions by examining his past ones.

Also, I feel like it should be noted that the undead servants of Palawa Joko retain their memories, self control and will to some extent, and he controls them much like a king or a commander would control an army of living.

Well, any of us can be right, but note something.

You guys base your ideas about the GW1 Joko. Back then he had to rebuild, get back the control over his army and land from nothing, and that took a while. He could make the player help him, not because he likes us or he changed, but we were the only ones pending on him.

I base my ideas on the gap between GW1 and GW2. By now he gained back the power, conquered Elona, and no longer needs help. Now, that he has an empire behind him and a large undead army, he can be who he really is.

I wonder how far Zhaitan’s influence went. We don’t know if Palawa Joko has been able to think by himself while Zhaitan has been alive. And with the fall of Zhaithan I wonder if he will be willing to help destroying something that threatens him as well: the elder dragons. I mean, he could capitalize on that threat to gain even more power but doing so could also be his undoing. If the ED destroy Tyria he will get caught in that.

Ludovicus.7980:

I wonder how far Zhaitan’s influence went. We don’t know if Palawa Joko has been able to think by himself while Zhaitan has been alive. And with the fall of Zhaithan I wonder if he will be willing to help destroying something that threatens him as well: the elder dragons. I mean, he could capitalize on that threat to gain even more power but doing so could also be his undoing. If the ED destroy Tyria he will get caught in that.

Palawa Joko is an undead lord, but not a minion of a dragon. He was never influenced by Zhaitan and his army is fighting Zhaitan’s.

Gandarel.5091:

You and Konig probably mistook what we are sayig. We aren’t saying that Palawa will take over the world.

When I say Tyria, I mean the continent. And while you may not have said it – you haven’t said much in this – it was said by Narcemus:

Narcemus.1348:

I’m sorry, but I honestly can’t see a group like the Pact just sitting by and watching Palawa Joko take over swaths of land just because “Well he wasn’t helping an Elder Dragon so it’s not our problem” I honestly don’t understand why you think they would be so naive.

I never once really gave a kitten about whether or not Joko was oppressing Elona. That wasn’t ever the point I was trying to make. My point was that he isn’t some bloke who’s going to go on a conquest spree just because, nor is he someone who’s going to go around kicking puppies for kittens and giggles. He’s not nice, but he’s not pitch black and he’s not an idiot. Unlike what Narcemus said, he’s not going to go invading Tyria just because Zhaitan (and later, Kralkatorrik) are dead; and unlike what Pavees said, he isn’t a pitch black figure in the story – yeah, he’s really dark gray, but Anet loves their shades of gray and irregardless of what others tell us about a guy they hate, we have talked to him in person (so to speak) and that’s far more reliable than what we’re told about him by some dude who hates Joko. For example, the Whispers in GW1 kept saying that Joko would betray the character practically right away… yet he didn’t.

Is Joko oppressing Elona? Yes. But is he being as bad as all the NPCs and whatnot say about him? No, not really. Is he being this pitch black evil overlord bent on world conquest like Narcemus and Pavees individually say in part? No, not even close.

That’s all I’ve been trying to say.

Gandarel.5091:

Also, Palawa wants the Cryastal Desert and maybe Orr too

Please provide a source, because as far as we’ve seen, beyond what he’s taken control of – which was no-man’s-land in the first place – he’s not expanded in nearly 200 years, only defended when attacked. He certainly never showed interest in Orr, nor implication of such an interest. (Technically, though, The Desolation is part of the Crystal Desert, so he’s always had domain in the CD).

Gandarel.5091:

We will have to fight Palawa and that’s for sure. Maybe not because of these reasons and events, but we will.

Not necessarily so. He could be – once more – viewed as the better of two evils. Maybe the Movement’s statements are grossly exaggerated. Maybe so too were all the other “facts” said by people who hate Joko. GW2 is known for subjective truths, and making subjective truths out of GW1 info, so you cannot take everything at face value – unlike what Pavees is doing.

Gandarel.5091:

You guys base your ideas about the GW1 Joko.

And while we base our ideas off of first-hand interaction with Joko, you’re basing it off of second-hand reports of those who don’t like Joko (the Movement of the World and some choice statements about Joko’s past in GW1).

Which sounds more skewed to you?

Ludovicus.7980:

I wonder how far Zhaitan’s influence went. We don’t know if Palawa Joko has been able to think by himself while Zhaitan has been alive. And with the fall of Zhaithan I wonder if he will be willing to help destroying something that threatens him as well: the elder dragons.

Joko was always fighting Zhaitan’s minions who were trying to invade Elona – Joko fighting a defensive war by all indications.

About the “new main topic” (by the number of posts on that). Here’s what I think and others have said before:

- The Pact needs money and resources, they get a big percentage from their resources from the nations supporting them.

- The reason of the nations supporting them is because they’ve seen a common foe, the dragons, that all of them want to get rid off, so they support the Pact for that task.

- If suddenly the Pact decides that “it’s the moral way to go because look at those poor poor elonians suffering Palawa’s rule” and start a campaign against Palawa Joko, many of those nations providing them resources will be mad as many probably don’t care at all about Elona, specially when they have enough to deal with in their own lands and they probably prefer to use their own resources there rather than see them wasted on a meaningless campaign for them. That money and resources is for fighting dragons because they’re a global threat, not to use them for whatever charity campaign the Pact leaders may think is correct.

- Basically doing that would make many nations take away their support and resources, weaken the Pact, make them unable to free Elona and make them unable to fight the Dragons as they won’t have as many resources.

- Basically using the organization to fight things out of charity and because it’s right would destroy the organization.

- Now separate components of the Pact, using their own resources instead of the Pact’s resources are free to do as they please. But the Pact can’t do it.

Now if Joko started a campaign over Tyria, the situation may change, as attacks to territories controled by the races on the Pact are countered with the Pact as they want all nations to be able to focus on dragons (this is for example part of the reasons you find Pact forces helping against the Flame Legion, so the Charr can defeat them sooner and release more resources to help the Pact).

But to be honest, I don’t see Joko trying that. Not just because Kralky (which is a HUGE reason), but because I think he “wants” Elona. It’s what he wanted, he isn’t the sort of villian obsesed to rule over the world. But he probably thinks he must rule over Elona, and probably that’s reinforced by his revenge desire over the Ossas, to rule what they now can’t rule. But I don’t think he’s too interested on any other territories. There is also the possibility of his forces weakening if they march too far (I’m not sure of this part but I think part of what allows him to rise such a powerful army was that the desolation was the place where the huge fight of Abaddon vs the other 5 gods happened leaving “power radiation” in the atmosphere on that place and Palawa could syphon that power on his rituals, not sure about that part thought, it may be just me connecting bits of info into speculation by myself I don’t remember well).

Now about the real main topic, Cantha, before everyone forgets that.

Specifically this post that I remember too:

wouw.5837:

Sorry for the late response, but A artist said Cantha will never release, still looking were I heard it, tho

EDIT: giving up on looking for it, @ Konig, idd It is weird, but if the boss says no you can’t do it, than they have to listen.

I think I found it, there is a very long thread on general discussion named "How is getting rid of Cantha a ‘universal’ representation of… " that starts with a post quoting something said by an unknown artist:

“NCsoft was firm in its decision to stay away from “Asian” themes and keep it “universal.” ArenaNet had to make adjustments quickly. A small number of you may recall that the human story was originally split by Canthans/Elonians/Ascalonians instead of the current Streets/Commoner/Noble paths. Divinity’s Reach originally had sections dedicated to the three cultures as well (Ossan Quarters & Rurikton are the current “versions” perhaps?) ArenaNet obeyed NCsoft’s suggestion and halted all Canthan productions, including the once-existing Canthan sector of Divinity’s Reach…. Because of time restrictions, they had to erase the Canthan sector of DR quickly. The current result is “The Great Collapse.” It’s an inside joke now, she says. The “Collapse” symbolizes what was once an idea that didn’t make it all the way. She further states that ArenaNet had to come up with some new lore to cover up the lack of Canthan content — hence the Emperor’s decree (read lore on Wiki). That’s all I have.”

Later on the same thread we got some responses from Josh Foreman:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/How-is-getting-rid-of-Cantha-a-universal-representation-of-humanity/1385108/quote

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/How-is-getting-rid-of-Cantha-a-universal-representation-of-humanity/1394252/quote

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/How-is-getting-rid-of-Cantha-a-universal-representation-of-humanity/1395531/quote

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/How-is-getting-rid-of-Cantha-a-universal-representation-of-humanity/1400102/quote

It says that nothing is really ruled out (so I wouldn’t say “never” but instead very very unprobable, specially in the near future), but that it was indeed a decission, to stay away from canthan/asian representations. He says that he hopes for a return and that he doesn’t know the details about it and that it could’ve been done by someone that doesn’t even work anymore at NCSoft so anything could happen, but for what we know, the directions are to focus on different things which puts Cantha many years away if we ever visit it again.

About the “not liking the Canthan District surrounded by european themed architecture”… judging for this image of what it would’ve been, I don’t find it too offensive to be honest (the Ossan quarters have elonian architecture, and both have the “rich kind of architecture” nothing here resembles a suburb of poor people bunkered in a zone).

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/43990/800px-2010_May_Divinity_s_Reach_Canthan_district_Polished.jpg

Based on Lokheit’s post, it might just be that if Cantha does make an appearance at a later date, it will be a very reworked Cantha. Given NCSoft’s wishes to stay away from Asian themes and keep it “universal” as they put it, it wouldn’t surprise me to see Cantha heavily infused with non-human races. Perhaps the Tengu? I have no idea how they would do that…it seems counter to the current state of Canthan affairs. But who knows. Maybe the theme of a future Canthan expansion will be ridding it of the “evil xenophobic overlords” who are in control. /shrug

As for the Canthan District image, I think the offensiveness was not with the quality of the representation, but rather with the simple fact that it’s inside a “western” city. Subordination of cultures can be a very sensitive issue I guess…

Honestly, I can’t see them leaving such story resources completely unused, not to mention the gameplay possibilities. With the Jade Sea turning back to water, we’d have large underwater areas with huge monsters to fight, with the Echovald Forest we’d have, well, huge lush forest which is cool in itself, and Kaineng City with jumping… nope, can’t see them leaving them unused. “When” is a whole another matter, though.

With the state of things in Cantha, I’d guess we’d be opposing the current rule. For reasons, perhaps the empire is unwilling to take action against a dragon relatively close to it (DSD, perhaps), and the now oppressed people, tengu, luxons, kurzicks, perhaps naga, maybe even Obsidian Flame, would unite to fight the Empire of the Dragon and the Dragon of the deeps, much like how kurzicks and luxons united against Shiro in GW1.

Well, that’s just my guess on how it might play out, anyways.

Obsidian.1328:

Based on Lokheit’s post, it might just be that if Cantha does make an appearance at a later date, it will be a very reworked Cantha. Given NCSoft’s wishes to stay away from Asian themes and keep it “universal” as they put it, it wouldn’t surprise me to see Cantha heavily infused with non-human races. Perhaps the Tengu? I have no idea how they would do that…it seems counter to the current state of Canthan affairs.

Yeah, would be strange to see Cantha full of other races after killig off every other races 200 years ago.

It seems weird to me that people would look at an eastern culture’s sector of a western city as eastern culture being subordinate. If I saw the opposite I would personally be spending too much time exploring the city and looking at the eastern architectural beauty to even look for hidden messages.

^
As would I. I suppose there are some inherent cultural differences that those of us, as westerners, can’t relate to. In the grand scheme of real-world social issues, it’s no secret that “western”(especially American) social ideas have been viewed as overly oppressive, or even morally offensive, in other cultures. Maybe this is part of that unfortunate issue.

I understand that. It is just that being an american I do not feel the way it influences other nations/cultures. I’ve seen how others view americans though, having studied abroad, and I hope to have changed some people’s views on americans (although the other college that came with us didn’t do much to help on the subject).