Did Abaddon actually love humans?

Did Abaddon actually love humans?

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Posted by: Goldfox.5729

Goldfox.5729

Hello fellow lore-fanatics,

I have a question that only can be answered with speculation. And I will also include my own theory.

Why did Abaddon want Humans to have magic?

As far as I can see it.. there’s 2 options to this answer.

1. When the Human Gods came to Tyria and made the world ready for Humans.. Abaddon was already against the other five Gods; which explains why he would try to destroy the new world that the other five Gods were trying to create.

2. Abaddon had good intentions for wanting to release the magic from within the Bloodstone for Humans to have.. but didn’t expect Humans to start warring with eachother.

I believe in option 2.. and I’ll tell you why.

The Human Gods were aware of the presence and nature of Elder Dragons when they came to Tyria. It was written in artifacts that the Forgotten collected to be stored in the city of Arah (one of these artifacts being the Seer-made Bloodstone). So what if Abaddon had higher aspirations for Humans? And a much stronger passion for them to succeed in their new world? Succeed so much.. that Abaddon wanted to help them defeat the Elder Dragons and truly make Tyria a world of Humans alone where they could decide life; instead of having to be destroyed by Elder Dragons later on.

Why else would Abaddon feel betrayed by the other five Gods when they took back the magic?

Ofcourse it wouldn’t be a reason to cause major catastrophic events for Humanity which we played through in Guild Wars 1.. but still.. what if he was simply a misunderstood little sibling that no one wanted to hear out? I would understand his anger towards the other Gods.

Discuss!

‘’Many have eyes, but few have seen.’’ – Scriptures of Lyssa, 45 BE

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Abaddon didn’t give magic to only humans, but to all races.

The Forgotten didn’t collect the artifacts in Arah, but the Six Gods did.

As for Abaddon’s reasons for starting a war, we learned this in Asian promotional information for Nightfall (in spoiler tags is fan-translations of this):


The nemisis of Campaign Three is the forgotten sixth god of creation – Abbadon. He and his five other brethens: Balthazar, Melandru, Dwayna, Lyssa, and Grenth created this world and the creatures. Abbadon’s original job is to rule over knowledge and water, but soon he became everyone’s abyss of pain and nightmare.

Abbadon originally represented the gods to give the precious magic to the sentinent races. But due to his limitless giving, it causes humans and the other races to abuse this gift. Thus, the other gods of creation attempted to use the bloodstone to split his power into four great elements, to suppress Abbadon’s magic so it doesn’t get abused. Abbadon’s of course not happy, but the other 5 gods ignored his opposition. Angered, Abbadon gathered his strongest followers, the Margonites, to attack the weak spot of the Rift (not sure if this actually means The Rift, it literally said “world gap/rift/fissure” in Mandarin). He wanted to overthrow the gods and create his own dynasty. Abbadon was so powerful, even two gods together could not stop him. Finally, under the siege by the five gods, Abbadon was defeated and imprisioned, never to be involved in worldly matters again. The location of his battle with the five gods became known as the “Mouth of Torment” (literal translation: Torment’s Mouth, not suer what official English will be).

After taking out Abbadon, the five gods also routed the Margonites. Additionally, they attempted to remove Abbadon’s name from all monuments and holy scrolls, so that Abbadon will be forgotten by the people.


Prior to his fall, Abaddon was the chief deity of water and wisdom. It is said that while his heart was still just and fair, he was a handsome, calm figure with imposing blue eyes – deep, like the colors of the sea. His generosity was only matched by his namesake, the ocean, which was both his dominion and said to be the physical manifestation of his blue wings. Princely amongst the gods, he was recognized as being the wisest amidst the Six, and his insight was not only welcome, but was also the most highly valued when the gods held council.

Few would recognize Abaddon as he is now. His eyes – once as deeply bright as the seas – were replaced by sunken, abyssal shadows. His wings lost their lustre and became scythe-like, bloodied and battered. It is said that Abaddon’s appearance is a direct representation of his heart. If that is true, then he must have fallen far.

Abaddon’s fall was not overnight, but the evil that was budding in his heart had many long years to simmer. For thousands of years, he always acted as a bridge between the Realm of the Gods [Translator’s note: ?? is a literal translation, which literally means “Realm of the Gods” or “World of the Gods”. I want to make the call that this is the Mists, but I don’t think I can do that) and Tyria. When the gods decided to gift magic to the world, it was Abaddon who rose up to the task. Spreading the light of wisdom to all the races, he gave freely the gift of magic – the natural ability to manipulate this force – to those races he deemed to possess both the capacity of thought as well as hidden potentials. Unfortunately, Abaddon was clearly overly generous, and too many of the races received his attention. Rapidly, these civilizations rose to prominence and became enamored with their mysterious benefactor, with many exclusively worshiping him. The Five, however, felt both neglected and disrespected. They were both concerned with their own plight as well as the nature of the world – Abaddon was becoming increasingly reckless and could endanger the world. To solve this issue, they created a Stone of Blood [Translator’s note: That’s their term for Blood stone], which split the powers governed by Abaddon into four parts, in turn weakening the strength of the intelligent races so that they may no longer drive each other to extinction. Abaddon was furious, and protested strongly to his brothers and sisters, but his pleas were ignored. His fury would eventually blind those once far-seeing eyes, and making him lose the logic in which he valued so highly.

One particular tribe of humans lived exclusively on the high seas. The waters in which they sailed are now known as the Crystal Desert – known as the Crystal Sea at the time. During that time, it was a beautiful and bountiful place, nested between Tyria and Elona. The people there worshipped Abaddon exclusively, and upon hearing the news, they launched an attack on the “High Temples of the Six Gods” [Translator’s note: reference unclear], a great place of worship on the northern shores of Elona. They slaughtered the priests of the Five, desecrated the altars, and defaced the statues and scriptures within that holy place. While the Five were understandably furious, it was their mortal followers – the Forgotten – whose anger burned the brightest. A mighty legion was gathered – the likes which were not seen before – to quell Abaddon’s insolent followers, and what followed was the largest naval battle ever seen in human history.

The crude magics and technology of humanity was no match for that of the Forgotten, and their great armada was soon annihilated. The leader of one such tribe, Jadoth, has been drifting for fifty-one days when he fearfully noticed Forgotten ships appearing on the horizon. Desperately, he prayed to Abaddon for deliverance. Abaddon was silent for a long period of time. When he answered, however, the answer was clear. The waters beneath the Forgotten fleet began to bubble as large whirlpools formed. The sky – when it should be filled with dawnlight – was torn apart by abyssal colored tempests, and a fearsome devouring darkness appeared from beneath the forgotten fleet.

No living being emerged from the endless darkness that came from beneath the waters, except for one. Jadoth. He became the first champion of Abaddon, and with him came the first of the Margonites. Hate and anger had overcame Abaddon completely, and with a vengeful declaration, war, once again, was declared upon the Gods.

Abaddon was the mightiest of the gods, and for a while, the war went in his favor. In the end, however, he was no match for the combined strength of all the Five. At what is now known as the Mouth of Torment, the Five broke an entrance to that which is now known as the Mouth of Torment. Unwilling (note: this can be translated to both unable or unwilling, but I’m taking context into consideration) to destroy their brethren, Abaddon was imprisoned. At the same time, the Margonites were delivered a catastrophic stroke, and only a small fraction of them ended up becoming trapped alongside their masters.

A powerful force of Forgotten was sent to safeguard Abaddon’s prison. Perhaps the Five had hoped that given time, Abaddon would come to his senses. They thought wrong. Hidden in the depths of the Domain of Anguish, Abaddon slowly recovered his strength, plotting to take his vengeance to the world. Somewhere, deep in the darkness, the god of pain and plagues lurk still, waiting for the opportunity to rend devastation upon the world.

TL;DR

When Abaddon granted magic to the races, the Margonites – who were already seeing Abaddon as their patron god – went effectively fanatical over the gift and denounced the other five gods and defaced their statues at the Temple of the Six (other races also began to worship Abaddon a bit more, bringing jealousy in the other five).

The Forgotten retaliated against this, waging war against the Margonites and nearly wiping them out. Jadoth pleaded for aid from Abaddon, Abaddon answered and granted the Margonites more power – turning them into the demonic entities we see in GW1. Because of this the other five stepped into the war as well, taking the side of the Forgotten.

During the war – or in the time leading to volunteering to grant magic to the races – Abaddon had wanted to rule Tyria himself (possibly why he granted it so freely – to gain the popularity and support to make this happen without as many qualms from mortals), and had sieged the “Gates of Heaven” in the southern coastline of the Crystal Sea.

So basically what happened is:

  1. Abaddon wanted to rule Tyria alone.
  2. The Five Gods got jealous of his new popularity for giving so much more magic.
  3. Abaddon disagreed with limiting magic (probably due to the aforementioned desire to rule), and his opposition was ignored by the other five gods (probably due to the aforementioned jealousy).
  4. Abaddon got kittened that the Forgotten attempted to nearly wipe out his devoted followers.

The last one being the “final straw” that ignited the war itself.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: UnbentMars.9126

UnbentMars.9126

Man Konig, I don’t know why they haven’t made you a Lore forum mod considering how you seem to know pretty much everything…thanks for spreading the knowledge and answering so many questions in such detail!

Rev, Ele, Burnzerker
“Beware he who would deny you access to information,
for in his heart he dreams himself your master.”

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Posted by: Goldfox.5729

Goldfox.5729

Sounds like Abaddon was once the leader of the other Gods and the other 5 backstabbed him when he was gaining too much power (too much according to the 5 other Gods). I still don’t see any reason why Abaddon would want to rule the world by himself. Maybe he had positive plans for all? Who knows…

‘’Many have eyes, but few have seen.’’ – Scriptures of Lyssa, 45 BE

(edited by Goldfox.5729)

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

I wouldn’t say he was the leader. The ‘represented the gods’ and ‘when the gods held council’ sound to me like they decided on things as a collective body back then. I also wouldn’t say he had ‘positive’ plans, per se- after all, the only surviving teaching of his is “Act with magic, act within reason, act without mercy.” This is just speculation on my part, but since that’s what you asked for, my guess is that he was indifferent to the suffering magic caused, seeing it as acceptable collateral damage in pursuit of… whatever ‘greater good’ he might have figured their sacrifices were for. For any Tolkein fans, I see him as being a Melkor figure, who let his superior power and wisdom go to his head until he couldn’t stand to not get his own way. Not something that started as “I’m your master, obey me now!” but more of “I know better than you, so why in the world won’t you listen?” Dwayna, though, we know was moved by pity to take mercy on all those caught in the crossfire and one way or another the other gods all fell in behind her. Abaddon’s ‘corruption’ started as brooding over getting overruled, and from there things escalated.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)

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Posted by: Goldfox.5729

Goldfox.5729

Maybe he was positive and good at the beginning but became corrupted after consuming dark powers from the spider god Arachnia causing him to become greedy for power and fame.

‘’Many have eyes, but few have seen.’’ – Scriptures of Lyssa, 45 BE

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Maybe, but I don’t think so. If that was the case, Kormir, who soaked up all the power Abaddon had had, should be in the same boat, but it’s been 250 years and there’s no sign of another god going megalomaniac.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

Yeah, I’m not sure him “representing” the gods meant he was their leader. As he was “representing the gods to give out magic”.

To me this sounds like he was doing it on “behalf” of the gods. But because he gave “too much”, they decided to reign him in. He voiced his complaint and they ignored him. So he raised an army and decided that he should rule. If he was the leader, it seems to me that there would have been some kind of indication of him trying to take back leadership. Not just take it.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Sounds like Abaddon was once the leader of the other Gods and the other 5 backstabbed him when he was gaining too much power (too much according to the 5 other Gods). I still don’t see any reason why Abaddon would want to rule the world by himself. Maybe he had positive plans for all? Who knows…

Dwayna was the leader, however, Abaddon was basically the advisor of the pantheon because he knew so much and had a good take on things (a role now seemingly filled by Melandru, being the “oldest and wisest” god).

Maybe, but I don’t think so. If that was the case, Kormir, who soaked up all the power Abaddon had had, should be in the same boat, but it’s been 250 years and there’s no sign of another god going megalomaniac.

-coughs-

“A new god is born! A god that will destroy the others and bring about the end of the world! The cycle begins again!”

“Kormir. How brave you were to join us in the Realm of Torment. How mad you were to choose to never leave.”

“When you walk dark paths, you open your mind to nightmare. Poor Kormir, poor sad goddess raised up to the stars, cursed to see only infinite blackness between them….”

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mad_Soul

“Kormir whispers beneath the world, through the quiet chambers and the dark corridors of reality. Can you hear her?”

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tormented_Soul

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Goldfox.5729

Goldfox.5729

That’s really interesting Konig. Is there any more information you can tell us about Abaddon, or any links leading to the information? I’m very interested in him somehow!

‘’Many have eyes, but few have seen.’’ – Scriptures of Lyssa, 45 BE

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Don’t forget the parts where they believe they’ve attained eternal youth and that you’re Turai Ossa returned to help them. I wouldn’t exactly call that a reliable source, eh?

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Rhaegar.1203

Rhaegar.1203

Maybe he was positive and good at the beginning but became corrupted after consuming dark powers from the spider god Arachnia causing him to become greedy for power and fame.

I’m hesitant to consider data-mined info like Arachnia as canon…

At some point between GW:EN and GW2, I considered ANet could put a spin on the end of Nightfall and pull a plot-twist on Abaddon’s end goal at breaking from the Realm of Torment: since he was the God of Secrets, he could have found out about the Elder Dragons, and then distributed Magic among the races to prepare for the next cycle. He was misunderstood by the Gods and the races, and cast down. He was still trying to break free to warn the Gods and prepare humanity.

But no, he was made generic evil.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

@ Aaron: I’m aware. It’s still something interesting to take note of.

@Rhaegar: Abaddon and Shiro are perhaps the sole villains of the GW universe that could never truly be argued to be “generic evil” in my opinion.

Then again, I consider “generic evil” to be equivalent to “saturday morning cartoon villains” (aka Scarlet Briar) or “James Bond villains” (aka Kudu, Caudecus).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Rhaegar.1203

Rhaegar.1203

Shiro is very nuanced! I like him… in paper. But his execution felt rather forced, eh?

Abaddon is also very believable. I like him. I may have worded my previous opnion in a wrong way.

We both agree on Scarlet and the other two. Even Gaheron.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

Did Abbadon love humans?

An inscription on the mural of Abbadon doesn’t seem to indicate that he wasn’t very compassionate. “Act with magic, act within reason, act without mercy.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mural_of_Abaddon

(edited by Dustfinger.9510)

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Posted by: maxwelgm.4315

maxwelgm.4315

Abbadon has been kittenly insane for so long (long before GW1 even) and the other gods have done such a good job in erasing him from story, that the Fractals would be the only reliable source [citation needed] of what he looked like before succumbing to Torment. I imagine he was not very loving but the Margonites certainly made it look like he was paternal; they worshipped him greatly because of how much power he gave and for his teachings presumably, not because he particularly cared about them.

What would really give some insight into Abbadon though would be finding out how he became a god to begin with. This is a long stretch because it happened long before nearly everything else ever mentioned on the GW franchise, and would have to bring Arachnia or whatever god he got his powers from into canon. But it would bring an extremely nice ‘closure’ not only to Abbadon as a character, but to the whole gods arch we worked out in GW1.

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Posted by: Justine.6351

Justine.6351

Maybe a dragon corrupted abandon, the ultimate champion! ;-)

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Posted by: Sartharina.3542

Sartharina.3542

Maybe, but I don’t think so. If that was the case, Kormir, who soaked up all the power Abaddon had had, should be in the same boat, but it’s been 250 years and there’s no sign of another god going megalomaniac.

That’s because it’s been 250 years and there’s no sign of any of the gods doing ANYTHING.

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Posted by: RyuDragnier.9476

RyuDragnier.9476

Abbadon has been kittenly insane for so long (long before GW1 even) and the other gods have done such a good job in erasing him from story, that the Fractals would be the only reliable source [citation needed] of what he looked like before succumbing to Torment. I imagine he was not very loving but the Margonites certainly made it look like he was paternal; they worshipped him greatly because of how much power he gave and for his teachings presumably, not because he particularly cared about them.

What would really give some insight into Abbadon though would be finding out how he became a god to begin with. This is a long stretch because it happened long before nearly everything else ever mentioned on the GW franchise, and would have to bring Arachnia or whatever god he got his powers from into canon. But it would bring an extremely nice ‘closure’ not only to Abbadon as a character, but to the whole gods arch we worked out in GW1.

Thanks for reminding me that we never got the Abaddon fractal we were promised we’d get sometime later after we got the Reactor fractal for voting in Ellen Kiel. We need this fractal now more than ever, it could easily tie into the goings on with the White Mantle.

[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald

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Posted by: Donari.5237

Donari.5237

I don’t recall that promise being made. What I recall was being told we’d get Thaumanova if Kiel won, Abaddon if Gnashblade did, and only the chosen one would ever be developed. This was the subject of much discussion in the forums. After the players elected Kiel, it took a few months to get the fractal because the election decision was when the devs really started working on it.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

It was actually promised that we would NOT see whichever fractal lost. Ever.

Though recently the Fractal team said “well, maybe we will make it. Maybe.”

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: maxwelgm.4315

maxwelgm.4315

If reverse psychology is a thing, and Anet has said before they would totally release new legendary weapons, then they are definitely going to release the Abbadon fractal eventually.

EDIT: Actually, our PC and the Pact are more or less accomplishing what Abbadon more or less has originally intended if you think about it. By killing the elder dragons we are seemingly releasing the whole of Tyria’s magic for anyone to grab it (or not, if it’s unstable beyond control), which is quite similar to Abbadon giving power around with no mercy to everyone worshipping him (pun intended). So regardless of getting a Fractal for him or not, his intentions at the very least are kinda still related to our current lore and he would be worth a mention.

(edited by maxwelgm.4315)

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

That’s a good point, Max. It brings up some possibilities.

The Pact is doing it and they are a collection of species cooperation. When Abbadon did it, there was little to no cooperation. Could be that the rest of the gods wanted to wait until the world was ready. IDK, something for the writers to consider.

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Posted by: Mental Paradox.3845

Mental Paradox.3845

I have been flamed half to death over this in the past, but I’ll say this: I love Abaddon. He’s basically Prometheus before the Christians corrupted the myth and turned him into Lucifer. My guild is the “Abaddon’s Chosen”, and I respect the fallen God for what he WAS, not what he became.

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Posted by: maxwelgm.4315

maxwelgm.4315

With the new lore presented with this LW episode, we know that individuals absorbing too much magic (this time from the Bloodstone, but it is heavily implied it goes for any magic, presumably only not the divine one) can go mad like drug addicts, to the point they’d die over their thirst for it. That rises yet another interesting parallel between Abbadon and our own endeavors; Not only we are releasing magic unchecked onto Tyria just like he was, it is apparently driving people mad and causing much more destruction than it could ever cause good.

Just take a look at Bloodstone Fen, bloodstones are no more than nukes, they even have magic fallout to boast. So, while Abbadon could have been caring and wanted what was best for humanity in a way, he was arguably not doing good at all even before being tormented, by running around giving literal nukes to everyone. Alas, I bet the Margonites did not rule the Crystal Sea with their amazing pacifist policies before Abbadon transformed them. Then again, that is indeed akin to Prometheus, as one could argue no good left without evil came from the flame of knowledge either.

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Posted by: RyuDragnier.9476

RyuDragnier.9476

With the new lore presented with this LW episode, we know that individuals absorbing too much magic (this time from the Bloodstone, but it is heavily implied it goes for any magic, presumably only not the divine one) can go mad like drug addicts, to the point they’d die over their thirst for it. That rises yet another interesting parallel between Abbadon and our own endeavors; Not only we are releasing magic unchecked onto Tyria just like he was, it is apparently driving people mad and causing much more destruction than it could ever cause good.

Just take a look at Bloodstone Fen, bloodstones are no more than nukes, they even have magic fallout to boast. So, while Abbadon could have been caring and wanted what was best for humanity in a way, he was arguably not doing good at all even before being tormented, by running around giving literal nukes to everyone. Alas, I bet the Margonites did not rule the Crystal Sea with their amazing pacifist policies before Abbadon transformed them. Then again, that is indeed akin to Prometheus, as one could argue no good left without evil came from the flame of knowledge either.

This also brings an interesting thought as to why the Elder Dragons devour magical energy after it gets to a point. Maybe to prevent Tyria from being destroyed by the magical power itself? This cycle seems to have gone on for quite a while, so maybe it’s a safeguard against it, and Abaddon sped up the process before the dragons awoke again by putting more magical energy into the system.

[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

@Maxwelgm: Well about the whole going mad thing – those going mad are those directly exposed to a huge quantity of Bloodstone magic. Those crazed like drug addicts are those who were in that huge explosion, which Abaddon did not create when spreading magic; the only others crazed by it are the souls that were trapped within the Bloodstone.

And Bloodstones are only nukes if they are made unstable and explode – which, again, is not something Abaddon did. Making the bloodstone unstable was a multi-year process by the White Mantle (a full three years). While the details of Abaddon’s gifting magic is largely unknown, unless he was the one who split into five pieces by exploding it, he didn’t do anything like that.

Though this does bring in the question of how the Six Gods could safely divide the Bloodstone into five pieces when cracking the shell made the Bloodstone unable to contain magic so well. I guess that’s why they had to strengthen it with magic from Zhaitan.

@RyuDragnier: We already knew that the Elder Dragons inadvertedly balanced magic, but did so from one extreme to the other. According to Hidden Arcana in Season 2, too little magic is just as deadly to the world as too much.

I don’t think Abaddon’s gift of magic made the world equivalent to what’s going on with Bloodstone Fen and the ley line events, as that would no doubt have woken the Elder Dragons, but if Thrulnn the Lost’s tales of the last dragonrise is right, the world was “chaotic” when the Elder Dragons last woke – before the Bloodstone was made.

About Abaddon speeding up the process – the thing is that the Durmand Priory claims that the Elder Dragons last woke the same ~10,000 years they always have. Which, though weird, means that the act of making the Bloodstone and then the act of releasing magic from it negated each other. Unless, of course, the Priory is wrong with this (there are several hints to such as well, hinting that the last ED rise was not in ~10,000 BE but in ~3,000 BE).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: maxwelgm.4315

maxwelgm.4315

Hmmm, you’re right Konig, so far we’ve only seen this drug like effect coming from ‘bloodstone touched’ magic. Actually thinking back, we have no evidence that people went mad around Zhaitan neither Mordremoth, and they released a hell of a lot of magic.

The point about them only exploding if unstable though, is harder to come to terms with, for me at least. Even if it requires “going unstable”, so far the bloodstones were shown as a passive mean of storing magic (to my knowledge there is no reference claiming the Seers or the gods could actually control magic influx, it merely soaked up everything it could find). Even if there are means to harness (in the sense of controlling what already is inside the stone) this energy, it seems inevitable that it will eventually grow up to this critical and unstable point. Unless we pull some Asura Ex Machina and the almighty Zinn has some leftover research concerning a controlled bloodstone reactor at least.

And you also raised the good question of how the bloodstone was even cut in pieces to begin with, if a mere crack from the White Mantle caused it to wildly spawn outward, and that before reaching critical point. Perhaps the particular thing about the bloodstone is that its main source of magic are souls: this either means that souls have A LOT of magic stored inside them, much more so than any other magic Tyrians come across daily, or that souls hold a special kind of magic energy, which is both addictive and destructive.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Apprentice_Kasandra's_Diary

The artifacts we liberated from the Durmand Priory were, in fact, the key required to draw the magic out of the bloodstone shards. The Seers must have anticipated our need to tap the magic within the bloodstone, and this device may be what they used to do so.

We know that the Six Gods released magic from the Bloodstone and later strengthened it by drawing magic from Zhaitan; we know the Seers put magic into the bloodstone and created devices (I presume what we confiscate from the White Mantle Clerics in the story – the same device that allows us to safely contain the unstable magic flying all over Bloodstone Fen, or tap into the leaking Bloodstone Stalagmites) to tap magic from the bloodstones.

So yes, we do have reference claiming the Seers and the gods could control magic influx.

Also, nothing says the main source of Bloodstone magic is souls. That’s what the White Mantle put into it – largely due to them sacrificing souls to put into soul batteries during GW1, to keep the Door of Komalie closed – but the Bloodstone is noted to have grown exponentially with each Elder Dragon death, and we see a ley line flowing to/from it, indicating that natural ley energy magic is more likely to be a main source (plus the whole “drew magic from Zhaitan to strengthen the Bloodstones”).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Nightbringer Tenchi.5794

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794

In the beginning we know that the 6 gods that came to Tyria where(in no particular order); Dwayna, Balthazar, Melandru, Lyssa, Dhuum and Abaddon. Grenth was a demigod born of Dwayna and an Orrian Sculptor(clearly not Melchor), he didn’t ascend to godhood until after he took down Dhuum(with the help of his heroes, later to become his reapers). Abaddon we also know got his godhood from an older god before him, but he is the “God of Secrets” so we are left to look at the one thing that drives the gods, motive.

Every god has a reason why they sought the humans and my theories are as fallows.

  • Dwayna, goddess of light, life and love. maybe she just wanted to be a wife and a mom, she accomplished that.
  • Balthazar, God of fire and war. I’m guessing he was looking for heroes among the humans whom he could recruit to join his army, to help fight against Manzies.
  • Melandru, Goddess of nature. i have reason to believe that Tyria is Melandru’s domain(like the Fissure of Woe is to Balth) and that the Sylvari are actually new servants of hers, even though it seems lore states they are Mordremoth, i don’t buy it. not yet anyway.
  • Lyssa, Twins of beauty and chaos. Honestly, my best guess is bound to the random magic of the bloodstones right now, actual theory on this one.
  • Dhuum, God of death. He does not tolerate spirits or resurrection, at all. he doisn’t like that tyrian races can do that.
  • Grenth, God of the Afterlife. he’s half human, his dad was reaped by Dhuum. nuf said.
  • Abaddon, God of Secrets. What did he know…

Jadoth was being chased by the forgotten when he was made into the first margonite. Abaddon must have had info on the forgotten, and in turn on Glint. but also the jotun, seeres and mursaat all have evidence in Arah. Abaddon knew about the elder dragons, he knew what the older races predicted and in that fear he had Vaseer Kilbron sink Orr, Where Zhaitan and the gods where, he gave the charr the Searing Cauldron hoping they would kill Kralkatorrik while they fought in Ascalon, and later he used the Undead Lich to open the Door of Komallie(a portal to the Foundry of Failed Creations where his Titans where), used his Torment demons to corrupt Shiro Tagachi and spread affliction and Corrupted Varesh Ossa to open another portal to his domain.

Abaddon knew the elder dragons would wake soon and was trying to mass his armies to kill them for fear of being eaten by them. the real question should be did Kormir inherit Abaddon’s secrets? and if she did, what did he know that we don’t?

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

it seems inevitable that it will eventually grow up to this critical and unstable point.

To expand on Konig’s answer above, we essentially know that the stones were able to handle the magic that the dragons naturally let back out into Tyria- depending on exactly how fast they lap up magic compared to how fast they release it while they sleep, we were already close to or maybe even past peak levels. It’s only after a couple of the dragons have died, releasing magic that the seers had never counted on leaving the system, and after the White Mantle had deliberately sabotaged the shell containing the power that we saw an explosion. Remember, as far as anyone knows, an Elder Dragon has never died before. Either the previous races had no reason to believe it could be done, and so no reason or way to account for the release of their power, OR they knew better than to kill them, in which case they may have safely assumed that whoever would be around this cycle would know better too.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

In the beginning we know that the 6 gods that came to Tyria where(in no particular order); Dwayna, Balthazar, Melandru, Lyssa, Dhuum and Abaddon.

I know this is nitpicking, but we’ve oddly never seen Dhuum counted among the Six, even in the earliest documents. It’s a very long shot, but if we’re talking about what we know, it is possible he was a seperate deal entirely, perhaps even native to Tyria or some completely separate world, until Grenth overthrew him.

Grenth was a demigod born of Dwayna and an Orrian Sculptor(clearly not Melchor),

Much to the contrary, everything we currently know points to Malchor being Grenth’s father, particularly since the devs specifically retconned out the reference to Malchor carving Grenth’s statue.

i have reason to believe that Tyria is Melandru’s domain(like the Fissure of Woe is to Balth) and that the Sylvari are actually new servants of hers, even though it seems lore states they are Mordremoth, i don’t buy it. not yet anyway.

I’d be curious to hear it, especially since you seem to say your reasons supersede stated lore.

As for your theories on the gods in general- obviously, we haven’t talked to them to know one way or another (and doubtless even then some might not take them at their word), but it seems to me you’re rather cynical about the whole thing. Dwayna was only nice because she wanted to be a housewife? Balthazar was just looking for cannon fodder? I feel like you’re selling both the gods and the humans short there, by aiming for the simplest and shallowest possible answers.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

In the beginning we know that the 6 gods that came to Tyria where(in no particular order); Dwayna, Balthazar, Melandru, Lyssa, Dhuum and Abaddon.

While Grenth is called the “first Tyrian-born god”, Lyssa, Dhuum, and Abaddon are never actually said to have come from another world like the others. More importantly, Lyssa’s origins are explicitly stated as having been lost, implying a cover up much like with Abaddon’s fall – it’s possible that Lyssa is the true “first Tyrian-born god” and the other gods covered it up; would be plausible given that they had a god of secrets to help, and there was more time before leaving unlike when they were covering up Abaddon’s existence.

Grenth was a demigod born of Dwayna and an Orrian Sculptor(clearly not Melchor)

As Aaron mentioned, it’s actually highly likely it was Malchor who was Grenth’s father – Anet even retconned the description of DR’s statue of Grenth from quoting Malchor to quoting Desmina. An odd choice.

Every god has a reason why they sought the humans and my theories are as fallows.

  • Dwayna, goddess of light, life and love. maybe she just wanted to be a wife and a mom, she accomplished that.

Eh, if that was so why would she leave Malchor/the sculptor?

Also, Lyssa is the god attributed with love, not Dwayna.

But as Aaron says, sounds like you’re selling Dwayna short. This also contradicts known lore, where we are outright told that Dwayna was seeking a paradise for all when looking at Tyria. That is far more than “I want to be a wife and mother” – especially when she then abandoned her “husband” (aka boyfling) and forced her son to prove his worth before allowing him to be a god like her.

  • Melandru, Goddess of nature. i have reason to believe that Tyria is Melandru’s domain(like the Fissure of Woe is to Balth) and that the Sylvari are actually new servants of hers, even though it seems lore states they are Mordremoth, i don’t buy it. not yet anyway.

Tyria is a mortal world, though – and a full world at that. The Fissure of Woe (aka Realm of War) is an afterlife, implied to be part of The Rift, and is not a full world.

And I’d be curious on that theory on the sylvari… Since as you said, it contradicts canon lore. Which means it most likely isn’t so.

  • Lyssa, Twins of beauty and chaos. Honestly, my best guess is bound to the random magic of the bloodstones right now, actual theory on this one.

AFAIK, there’s no real relation between Lyssa and chaos, beyond a single phrase used and mesmers having Lyssa as their patron goddess.

And please elaborate on that bloodstone thing… Because currently it makes no sense, as the Bloodstones’ magic isn’t actually random at all (it’s just that an excess of any magic leads to chaotic results – see the anomalies across the world).

  • Dhuum, God of death. He does not tolerate spirits or resurrection, at all. he doisn’t like that tyrian races can do that.
  • Grenth, God of the Afterlife. he’s half human, his dad was reaped by Dhuum. nuf said.

Grenth isn’t the god of the afterlife any more than any other god, technically. Every god has their own afterlife as far as we know, and we know that Dwayna and Balthazar both take human souls (and it is implied Lyssa, Melandru, and Kormir/Abaddon do/did too). Grenth is just god of death.

Abaddon must have had info on the forgotten, and in turn on Glint.

The Forgotten were the servants of the Six Gods. All six would have had info on the Forgotten – their entire race worshiped and served them.

Abaddon knew about the elder dragons, he knew what the older races predicted and in that fear he had Vaseer Kilbron sink Orr, Where Zhaitan and the gods where, he gave the charr the Searing Cauldron hoping they would kill Kralkatorrik while they fought in Ascalon, and later he used the Undead Lich to open the Door of Komallie(a portal to the Foundry of Failed Creations where his Titans where), used his Torment demons to corrupt Shiro Tagachi and spread affliction and Corrupted Varesh Ossa to open another portal to his domain.

We have VERY heavy indication that the Cataclysm, Searing, and actions of Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall were all done for a single purpose: revenge against the Five and to break free (okay, so two purposes).

How does opening the Door of Komalie, causing the Affliction (something Shiro didn’t even intend to do, but ended up using since he caused it), and having Varesh Ossa open portals to the Realm of Torment at all assist in fighting the Elder Dragons?

Abaddon knew the elder dragons would wake soon and was trying to mass his armies to kill them for fear of being eaten by them. the real question should be did Kormir inherit Abaddon’s secrets? and if she did, what did he know that we don’t?

Technically, all gods knew of the Elder Dragons. This is a confirmed fact, told to us in Season 2.

Nothing really indicates that the gods would be prey to the Elder Dragons (in fact, divine fire – born of divine magic which the gods use – made mordrem flee) and his armies were for conquering Tyria according to known lore.

I know this is nitpicking, but we’ve oddly never seen Dhuum counted among the Six, even in the earliest documents. It’s a very long shot, but if we’re talking about what we know, it is possible he was a seperate deal entirely, perhaps even native to Tyria or some completely separate world, until Grenth overthrew him.

I’d chalk that up more to how Dhuum is never talked about in context to the other gods beyond Grenth, where it is always “Grenth’s predecessor”.

The notion of Dhuum being Grenth’s predecessor actually, to me, hints that Dhuum was part of the Six – after all, Grenth “took Dhuum’s place” is a description used, IIRC.

Also, Dhuum worked alongside Abaddon and Menzies, also tied directly to the Six. Would be weird for someone unrelated to work with those two.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: UnbentMars.9126

UnbentMars.9126

Speculation following Konig’s assertion of Abaddon’s goals regarding the Elder Dragons:

Maybe Abaddon’s original intent by releasing all magic to the races of Tyria was to enable them to go toe-to-toe with the Elder Dragons, but after being imprisoned in the Realm of Torment for so long and the approach of Nightfall, I think it was explicitly stated that his goal was revenge against the Five rather than the destruction of the Elder Dragons. That said, as the God of secrets and knowledge he could easily have had multiple congruent goals, but considering the actual outcomes (i.e. no dead Elder Dragons and continual conflict amongst the race he purportedly wanted to empower) I don’t think we can give him all that much credit.

Rev, Ele, Burnzerker
“Beware he who would deny you access to information,
for in his heart he dreams himself your master.”

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Posted by: Nightbringer Tenchi.5794

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794

it’s possible that Lyssa is the true “first Tyrian-born god” and the other gods covered it up; would be plausible given that they had a god of secrets to help, and there was more time before leaving unlike when they were covering up Abaddon’s existence.

There is literally no evidence to support Lyssa being Tyrian born, and the gods weren’t trying to cover up Abaddon’s existence, he had a full temple in orr, which sank with orr, and thanks to Verash Ossa we know there is proof of him being worshiped in Elona since his image can be found on the Isle of Istan(where Kormir first saw it), Gandara the moon fortress where his mural is still intact, the Ruins of Morah in the Desolation where pieces of his statue remain and in the Eye of the North where his mural is found. Abaddon’s existence was no secret, it just was taboo to talk about.

As Aaron mentioned, it’s actually highly likely it was Malchor who was Grenth’s father – Anet even retconned the description of DR’s statue of Grenth from quoting Malchor to quoting Desmina.

I’ll be making a thread later and prove there is no chance Malchor is Grenth’s father, be ready to have your mind blown.

This also contradicts known lore, where we are outright told that Dwayna was seeking a paradise for all when looking at Tyria. That is far more than “I want to be a wife and mother” – especially when she then abandoned her “husband” (aka boyfling) and forced her son to prove his worth before allowing him to be a god like her.

Citation for this claim is needed, otherwise your romanticizing Dwayna as much as i’m selling her short. thing is though, Occam’s Razer like to win when it comes to fights. But if you can prove your claim, i’m fully willing to accept it as the answer.

Tyria is a mortal world, though – and a full world at that. The Fissure of Woe (aka Realm of War) is an afterlife, implied to be part of The Rift, and is not a full world.

And I’d be curious on that theory on the sylvari… Since as you said, it contradicts canon lore. Which means it most likely isn’t so.

When i have more data and solid evidence to back up this theory i will make it public, i did say its a sneaking suspicion and as you mentioned Anet can retcon anything it wants at any time. so we will have to wait a bit longer to have any answers. still need citation for this claim otherwise its a non-argument to an admitted theory.

AFAIK, there’s no real relation between Lyssa and chaos, beyond a single phrase used and mesmers having Lyssa as their patron goddess.

And please elaborate on that bloodstone thing… Because currently it makes no sense, as the Bloodstones’ magic isn’t actually random at all (it’s just that an excess of any magic leads to chaotic results – see the anomalies across the world).

I did say i had no theory on this one yet, i have some thoughts but nothing to substantiate any kind of claim. another non-argument over a comment i made that is blatantly speculatory.

Grenth isn’t the god of the afterlife any more than any other god, technically. Every god has their own afterlife as far as we know, and we know that Dwayna and Balthazar both take human souls (and it is implied Lyssa, Melandru, and Kormir/Abaddon do/did too). Grenth is just god of death.

Malchor theory should help explain my position on this, though this statement looks like sophistry to me.

I’d chalk that up more to how Dhuum is never talked about in context to the other gods beyond Grenth, where it is always “Grenth’s predecessor”.

The notion of Dhuum being Grenth’s predecessor actually, to me, hints that Dhuum was part of the Six – after all, Grenth “took Dhuum’s place” is a description used, IIRC.

Also, Dhuum worked alongside Abaddon and Menzies, also tied directly to the Six. Would be weird for someone unrelated to work with those two.

I fully agree that Dhuum was part of the origonal group of gods to migrate to tyria, but i do not believe Dhuum was working alongside Abaddon and Menzies. His Underworld Army certainly was, but Dhuum was still in forced hybernation during the events of Nightfall. i do not believe he could command an army and conspire with other deities while asleep.

I know this is nitpicking, but we’ve oddly never seen Dhuum counted among the Six, even in the earliest documents. It’s a very long shot, but if we’re talking about what we know, it is possible he was a seperate deal entirely, perhaps even native to Tyria or some completely separate world, until Grenth overthrew him.

Nitpicking isn’t a bad thing all the time, but remember that only gods whom where expressly worshiped would be technically counted, Dhuum would be loathes by races and other deities who see value in resurrection or the undead, and we know how necromancers love those undead minions.

as for the Forgotten, they worshiped the human gods, but did the human gods create them? did they exist in a domain the human gods did before Tyria? how do the forgotten have magic that can liberate a creature from the influance of an elder dragon like with Glint or the chicken? and what about the exalted and enchanted armor, kinda like the jade armors aren’t they? evidence points to the forgotten existing long before they’re worship of the human gods. and while they’re magic wasn’t as strong as the seers, it was still enough to garner the gods attention. remember that the only 2 known groups that are powerful enough to manipulate the bloodstone are the human gods and the seers, the mursaat can only damage them or need the keystone.

I still believe Abaddon knew of the dragons before the other gods did and was trying to build a real army to kill them until factual evidence can prove me wrong.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

There is literally no evidence to support Lyssa being Tyrian born, and the gods weren’t trying to cover up Abaddon’s existence, he had a full temple in orr, which sank with orr, and thanks to Verash Ossa we know there is proof of him being worshiped in Elona since his image can be found on the Isle of Istan(where Kormir first saw it), Gandara the moon fortress where his mural is still intact, the Ruins of Morah in the Desolation where pieces of his statue remain and in the Eye of the North where his mural is found. Abaddon’s existence was no secret, it just was taboo to talk about.

About Lyssa, the thing I was pointing out was not that there’s evidence of her being a Tyrian born god, but the lack of evidence of her being a non-Tyrian born god.

And yes, it is explicitly stated canon lore that the gods “wiped out all knowledge of Abaddon’s existence”. Of course, this was a shoddy job – as you point out, there is the sunken temple, and a handful of statues and scriptures of him in ancient crypts.

Also, that mural in Gandara is incomplete and looks like it was being newly made. Just play Nightfall, and every time they bring up Abaddon he is “the forgotten god” and that “all knowledge of his existence was ‘erased’” – it’s the entire reason why for all of Prophecies and Factions and most of Nightfall, we call the gods “The Five Gods” rather than “The Six Gods”.

And the only place Abaddon’s mural is found in Eye of the North is in a section not used by any dungeon at all – except in the Halloween Mausoleum which uses an EotN generic dungeon but without closed doors (allowing full access to all of it).

I’ll be making a thread later and prove there is no chance Malchor is Grenth’s father, be ready to have your mind blown.

Waiting.

Citation for this claim is needed, otherwise your romanticizing Dwayna as much as i’m selling her short. thing is though, Occam’s Razer like to win when it comes to fights. But if you can prove your claim, i’m fully willing to accept it as the answer.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six

“The first of the gods to step forth from the mists was Dwayna, goddess of air and life. She placed her pale foot on the stones of Arah, opened the gates, and brought humanity to the world. She chose Tyria and brought with her those who would make this world a paradise. As she had promised, Dwayna led her people to peace.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quiz_Terminal

The terminal presents you with a question: “When Dwayna first came to Orr, what did she hope to create?”
→ A paradise.
“Correct answer. Dwayna sought to make the land a paradise for her followers.”

When i have more data and solid evidence to back up this theory i will make it public, i did say its a sneaking suspicion and as you mentioned Anet can retcon anything it wants at any time. so we will have to wait a bit longer to have any answers. still need citation for this claim otherwise its a non-argument to an admitted theory.

I never said anything about retcon, and if the writers who wrote the story are not lying, they had the intention to make sylvari be dragon minions from the get go.

While there are inconsistencies between sylvari and mordrem, the lore presents them to be to Mordremoth as Glint’s offspring are to Kralkatorrik.

I fully agree that Dhuum was part of the origonal group of gods to migrate to tyria, but i do not believe Dhuum was working alongside Abaddon and Menzies. His Underworld Army certainly was, but Dhuum was still in forced hybernation during the events of Nightfall. i do not believe he could command an army and conspire with other deities while asleep.

Teeeechnically…

He was imprisoned, but not in hibernation. Nothing says he could not communicate with his minions, in some manner or another. Especially since he gained power from them.

And in Nightfall, it was always “Dhuum’s alliance with Abaddon” and never “Dhuum’s forces’ alliance with Abaddon”. Even Dhuum’s own forces talked as if they could get in contact with Dhuum:

Emissary of Dhuum: “Dhuum has offered his aid to Abaddon’s cause. Do not take his word lightly. You will have the forces that you require.”
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/They_Only_Come_Out_at_Night

as for the Forgotten, they worshiped the human gods, but did the human gods create them? did they exist in a domain the human gods did before Tyria?

Lore does say they were brought to the world by the Six Gods. It isn’t explicitly retconned currently – just a but confusing since we’re told the Forgotten did stuff that predate the Six’s time on Tyria (which could be explained by the Forgotten being sent out as “scouts” first).

and what about the exalted and enchanted armor, kinda like the jade armors aren’t they?

It is said that the ancient races shared a lot before the mursaat’s betrayal – the enchanted armor are more akin to the armor that mursaat wear, rather than the jade armors – though the jade armors have an uncanny appearance similarity to depictions of Abaddon.

evidence points to the forgotten existing long before they’re worship of the human gods.

Actually, evidence does not point that way.

“What you need to know about the Forgotten is this: they once acted as wardens to ancient races in Tyria and shepherded their development from primitive to civilized. They served the beings known as the Five Gods, and they fought wars for them. They had a strong connection to Glint, and they left guardians with her for many centuries. During the last dragon cycle, it was the Forgotten who freed Glint from Kralkatorrik’s corruption and control. In gratitude, she hid them from the Elder Dragons until they returned to sleep. If they remain in Tyria, they are elusive at best, and many believe they have gone back to the Mists from which they came—perhaps never to return.”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Forgotten_Not_Forgotten

Written by the same individual who says that the ritual that freed Glint was pre-Six Gods. This matches everything we knew about the Forgotten from Prophecies and Nightfall, which claims that they served the Six Gods for countless generations, over several thousand years.

and while they’re magic wasn’t as strong as the seers, it was still enough to garner the gods attention. remember that the only 2 known groups that are powerful enough to manipulate the bloodstone are the human gods and the seers, the mursaat can only damage them or need the keystone.

I wouldn’t say that the Forgotten’s magic “garnered the gods attention” – evidence says the Forgotten use divine magic… which is used by the Six Gods. Thus, in turn, it implies that the Forgotten’s magic comes from the same source as the Six Gods’ but not as powerful as the Six’s.

I still believe Abaddon knew of the dragons before the other gods did and was trying to build a real army to kill them until factual evidence can prove me wrong.

Why “before”? The Six Gods knew about the Elder Dragons for a very long time, perhaps since they arrived on Tyria.

And factual evidence does prove you wrong. At least for Abaddon’s primary purpose.

As quoted earlier in this thread, pre-NF release information states, explicitly, that Abaddon’s rebellion at the beginning – and creation of the Margonites – is tied to wanting to rule Tyria and saving the Margonites (human nation) from extinction from the Forgotten who reacted to said Margonites defacing some statues of the Six sans Abaddon.

In Nightfall, it’s stated and heavily implied all he wanted was freedom and revenge.

Naturally in Nightfall there’d be no mention of Elder Dragons, as they didn’t exist in the lore yet, but we’re given a reason already. Unless ArenaNet goes and does some retroactive continuity changes, that is the reason – conquering, revenge, and freedom.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: mexay.3902

mexay.3902

“A new god is born! A god that will destroy the others and bring about the end of the world! The cycle begins again!”
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mad_Soul

Maybe I’m reading a little too much into this but could this be referring to what befell the Human’s world.

“The end of the world”
“The cycle”
“A new god”
“Destroy the others”

These are things we directly can attribute to either dragon rises (resulting from imbalances in magic) and assumptions/theories about what happened in the human world. I know this is going a bit crazy but could the Mad Soul actually be referencing that?

We know that Balthazar was “carrying his father’s head” (destroy the other Gods reference?), we know that “only Lyssa knows what happened in the Mists”, we know that it was some kind of catastrophe (end of the world reference?) and that humans are basically refuges, we know that Abaddon most likely usurped another God (new god reference?).

The cycle could be relating to a cycle similar to what we currently see on Tyria but perhaps in the Human realm? I don’t really know where it fits but it seems important. Perhaps it’s a cycle of a new god taking power, other gods being slain and the world ending. This isn’t even that far from what we’re seeing right now with the Elder Dragons. Zhaitan was just slain, Mordemoth is basically being usurped by Glint’s Egg and magic is going wild, potentially resulting in the world falling into the mists if it doesn’t get controlled.

Perhaps the Mad Soul isn’t really that Mad?

noice

(edited by mexay.3902)

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Posted by: Mikali.9651

Mikali.9651

Abaddon didn’t give magic to only humans, but to all races.

The Forgotten didn’t collect the artifacts in Arah, but the Six Gods did.

As for Abaddon’s reasons for starting a war, we learned this in Asian promotional information for Nightfall (in spoiler tags is fan-translations of this):


The nemisis of Campaign Three is the forgotten sixth god of creation – Abbadon. He and his five other brethens: Balthazar, Melandru, Dwayna, Lyssa, and Grenth created this world and the creatures. Abbadon’s original job is to rule over knowledge and water, but soon he became everyone’s abyss of pain and nightmare.

Abbadon originally represented the gods to give the precious magic to the sentinent races. But due to his limitless giving, it causes humans and the other races to abuse this gift. Thus, the other gods of creation attempted to use the bloodstone to split his power into four great elements, to suppress Abbadon’s magic so it doesn’t get abused. Abbadon’s of course not happy, but the other 5 gods ignored his opposition. Angered, Abbadon gathered his strongest followers, the Margonites, to attack the weak spot of the Rift (not sure if this actually means The Rift, it literally said “world gap/rift/fissure” in Mandarin). He wanted to overthrow the gods and create his own dynasty. Abbadon was so powerful, even two gods together could not stop him. Finally, under the siege by the five gods, Abbadon was defeated and imprisioned, never to be involved in worldly matters again. The location of his battle with the five gods became known as the “Mouth of Torment” (literal translation: Torment’s Mouth, not suer what official English will be).

After taking out Abbadon, the five gods also routed the Margonites. Additionally, they attempted to remove Abbadon’s name from all monuments and holy scrolls, so that Abbadon will be forgotten by the people.


Prior to his fall, Abaddon was the chief deity of water and wisdom. It is said that while his heart was still just and fair, he was a handsome, calm figure with imposing blue eyes – deep, like the colors of the sea. His generosity was only matched by his namesake, the ocean, which was both his dominion and said to be the physical manifestation of his blue wings. Princely amongst the gods, he was recognized as being the wisest amidst the Six, and his insight was not only welcome, but was also the most highly valued when the gods held council.

Few would recognize Abaddon as he is now. His eyes – once as deeply bright as the seas – were replaced by sunken, abyssal shadows. His wings lost their lustre and became scythe-like, bloodied and battered. It is said that Abaddon’s appearance is a direct representation of his heart. If that is true, then he must have fallen far.

Abaddon’s fall was not overnight, but the evil that was budding in his heart had many long years to simmer. For thousands of years, he always acted as a bridge between the Realm of the Gods [Translator’s note: ?? is a literal translation, which literally means “Realm of the Gods” or “World of the Gods”. I want to make the call that this is the Mists, but I don’t think I can do that) and Tyria. When the gods decided to gift magic to the world, it was Abaddon who rose up to the task. Spreading the light of wisdom to all the races, he gave freely the gift of magic – the natural ability to manipulate this force – to those races he deemed to possess both the capacity of thought as well as hidden potentials. Unfortunately, Abaddon was clearly overly generous, and too many of the races received his attention. Rapidly, these civilizations rose to prominence and became enamored with their mysterious benefactor, with many exclusively worshiping him. The Five, however, felt both neglected and disrespected. They were both concerned with their own plight as well as the nature of the world – Abaddon was becoming increasingly reckless and could endanger the world. To solve this issue, they created a Stone of Blood [Translator’s note: That’s their term for Blood stone], which split the powers governed by Abaddon into four parts, in turn weakening the strength of the intelligent races so that they may no longer drive each other to extinction. Abaddon was furious, and protested strongly to his brothers and sisters, but his pleas were ignored. His fury would eventually blind those once far-seeing eyes, and making him lose the logic in which he valued so highly.

One particular tribe of humans lived exclusively on the high seas. The waters in which they sailed are now known as the Crystal Desert – known as the Crystal Sea at the time. During that time, it was a beautiful and bountiful place, nested between Tyria and Elona. The people there worshipped Abaddon exclusively, and upon hearing the news, they launched an attack on the “High Temples of the Six Gods” [Translator’s note: reference unclear], a great place of worship on the northern shores of Elona. They slaughtered the priests of the Five, desecrated the altars, and defaced the statues and scriptures within that holy place. While the Five were understandably furious, it was their mortal followers – the Forgotten – whose anger burned the brightest. A mighty legion was gathered – the likes which were not seen before – to quell Abaddon’s insolent followers, and what followed was the largest naval battle ever seen in human history.

The crude magics and technology of humanity was no match for that of the Forgotten, and their great armada was soon annihilated. The leader of one such tribe, Jadoth, has been drifting for fifty-one days when he fearfully noticed Forgotten ships appearing on the horizon. Desperately, he prayed to Abaddon for deliverance. Abaddon was silent for a long period of time. When he answered, however, the answer was clear. The waters beneath the Forgotten fleet began to bubble as large whirlpools formed. The sky – when it should be filled with dawnlight – was torn apart by abyssal colored tempests, and a fearsome devouring darkness appeared from beneath the forgotten fleet.

No living being emerged from the endless darkness that came from beneath the waters, except for one. Jadoth. He became the first champion of Abaddon, and with him came the first of the Margonites. Hate and anger had overcame Abaddon completely, and with a vengeful declaration, war, once again, was declared upon the Gods.

Abaddon was the mightiest of the gods, and for a while, the war went in his favor. In the end, however, he was no match for the combined strength of all the Five. At what is now known as the Mouth of Torment, the Five broke an entrance to that which is now known as the Mouth of Torment. Unwilling (note: this can be translated to both unable or unwilling, but I’m taking context into consideration) to destroy their brethren, Abaddon was imprisoned. At the same time, the Margonites were delivered a catastrophic stroke, and only a small fraction of them ended up becoming trapped alongside their masters.

A powerful force of Forgotten was sent to safeguard Abaddon’s prison. Perhaps the Five had hoped that given time, Abaddon would come to his senses. They thought wrong. Hidden in the depths of the Domain of Anguish, Abaddon slowly recovered his strength, plotting to take his vengeance to the world. Somewhere, deep in the darkness, the god of pain and plagues lurk still, waiting for the opportunity to rend devastation upon the world.

TL;DR

When Abaddon granted magic to the races, the Margonites – who were already seeing Abaddon as their patron god – went effectively fanatical over the gift and denounced the other five gods and defaced their statues at the Temple of the Six (other races also began to worship Abaddon a bit more, bringing jealousy in the other five).

The Forgotten retaliated against this, waging war against the Margonites and nearly wiping them out. Jadoth pleaded for aid from Abaddon, Abaddon answered and granted the Margonites more power – turning them into the demonic entities we see in GW1. Because of this the other five stepped into the war as well, taking the side of the Forgotten.

During the war – or in the time leading to volunteering to grant magic to the races – Abaddon had wanted to rule Tyria himself (possibly why he granted it so freely – to gain the popularity and support to make this happen without as many qualms from mortals), and had sieged the “Gates of Heaven” in the southern coastline of the Crystal Sea.

So basically what happened is:

  1. Abaddon wanted to rule Tyria alone.
  2. The Five Gods got jealous of his new popularity for giving so much more magic.
  3. Abaddon disagreed with limiting magic (probably due to the aforementioned desire to rule), and his opposition was ignored by the other five gods (probably due to the aforementioned jealousy).
  4. Abaddon got kittened that the Forgotten attempted to nearly wipe out his devoted followers.

The last one being the “final straw” that ignited the war itself.

How can you write events going like that (number bullets) when it’s not at all like it’s written above?

1. is not true, He didn’t want to rule, He wanted to give magic to races but, according to other Gods, He gave too much (doesn’t means what He did was wrong) so they went restraining that magic without asking Him. If someone did that to me, I would get angry too.
We don’t know too much about that event, but it’s not true that Abaddon wanted to rule at the first place. He was angered (as I would cuz it’s just natural for what They did) and then he went in war to be The Ruler.

2. That one is true and it shows, after we ditch your no.1 which is wrong, that other Gods made a mistake here and are to be blamed!

3. Yet again you go that He wanted to rule. He didn’t want. He wanted to give magic to all races cuz He loved them! He wanted them to have that magic and to use it!
And yes, he disagreed inn limiting magic like today we want everyone to be equal!
But other Gods didn’t want them to be equal, they wanted them to be their minions and worshipers!

4. the 1st Margonite was created after the war already went on, when Five Gods countered humans who worshiped Abaddon with Forgottens (well, Forgottens did it on their own probably…) and were all killed expect Jadoth.
And when Jadoth, after 51 days of sailing alone screamed and called name of his God, Abaddon, Abaddon himself wasn’t sure if it’s right thing to do what was on His mind!
He was silence for long time and then he answered. And went full rage mode!

That is when Margonites were created!

Carefull with how you TLDR things cuz informations are wrong. And they are very important to be true.

Did Abaddon actually love humans?

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

How can you write events going like that (number bullets) when it’s not at all like it’s written above?

-snip-

1. The quotes I pulled literally state “He wanted to overthrow the gods and create his own dynasty.” and from the second there was: “Abaddon’s fall was not overnight, but the evil that was budding in his heart had many long years to simmer.” and “Abaddon was becoming increasingly reckless and could endanger the world.” which could hint at many things, but this was from an outside perspective while the former was from an inside perspective.

The first line proves that, at some point, Abaddon decided to rule as a singular god. The second line proves that this decision was not an immediate thought – like you claim it was. The third line shows that the other five gods recognized, before Abaddon rebelled (as the line is also part of their reasoning for why they revoked Abaddon’s gift of magic), that he was acting stranger and stranger to a dangerous degree.

3. It’s outright stated he wanted to rule so how can you argue he didn’t?

It’s like saying “we didn’t have to go into the Dream in order to kill Mordremoth” or “Forgal isn’t dead.”

You say he didn’t want to rule but wanted everyone to be equal… if this was so why did he give unique magic to different groups instead of the same magic to everyone?

“Abaddon bestowed a unique gift of magic on each group of creatures.”

4. Nothing says Jadoth was the last of the human Margonites. And how do you get “Abaddon himself wasn’t sure if it’s right thing to do what was on His mind” when NOTHING says that?

Carefull with how you TLDR things cuz informations are wrong. And they are very important to be true.

Careful how you rebuttle things because the “information” you gave is unsupported. And it is very important to be sourced and cited.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Mikali.9651

Mikali.9651

How can you write events going like that (number bullets) when it’s not at all like it’s written above?

-snip-

1. The quotes I pulled literally state “He wanted to overthrow the gods and create his own dynasty.” and from the second there was: “Abaddon’s fall was not overnight, but the evil that was budding in his heart had many long years to simmer.” and “Abaddon was becoming increasingly reckless and could endanger the world.” which could hint at many things, but this was from an outside perspective while the former was from an inside perspective.

The first line proves that, at some point, Abaddon decided to rule as a singular god. The second line proves that this decision was not an immediate thought – like you claim it was. The third line shows that the other five gods recognized, before Abaddon rebelled (as the line is also part of their reasoning for why they revoked Abaddon’s gift of magic), that he was acting stranger and stranger to a dangerous degree.

3. It’s outright stated he wanted to rule so how can you argue he didn’t?

It’s like saying “we didn’t have to go into the Dream in order to kill Mordremoth” or “Forgal isn’t dead.”

You say he didn’t want to rule but wanted everyone to be equal… if this was so why did he give unique magic to different groups instead of the same magic to everyone?

“Abaddon bestowed a unique gift of magic on each group of creatures.”

4. Nothing says Jadoth was the last of the human Margonites. And how do you get “Abaddon himself wasn’t sure if it’s right thing to do what was on His mind” when NOTHING says that?

Carefull with how you TLDR things cuz informations are wrong. And they are very important to be true.

Careful how you rebuttle things because the “information” you gave is unsupported. And it is very important to be sourced and cited.

1. Abaddon’s fall was not overnight, but the evil that was budding in his heart had many long years to simmer.
2. . Unfortunately, Abaddon was clearly overly generous, and too many of the races received his attention.
3. They were both concerned with their own plight as well as the nature of the world
4.. Abaddon was becoming increasingly reckless and could endanger the world.

As you can see, Abaddon didn’t want to rule before they created Blood Stone.
Abaddon made a mistake, and there is no clear answer why the Wisest of them All didn’t stop and think about the problem He made – civilizations around the world used their magic to fight each others which in return endangered the world.

The problem we have is that we don’t really have a timeline. First sentence is something like a teaser on how did he become “the Evil One”; “Abaddon’s fall was not overnight, but the evil that was budding in his heart had many long years to simmer” which is then continued on events which explained how that happened.

Abaddon gave magic as He saw was fit regarding capacity of thought as well as hidden potentials. Some clearly had capacity different then others, some could use one type of magic, others some other. It’s like talents – not everyone of us get the same talent(s).
It depends on many factors.

“Nothing says Jadoth was the last of the human Margonites.” – I didn’t say he was the last of the human Margonites – he was the last human, only one alive, after the fight between humans and Forgottens! There were NO Margonites at all!
They were created AFTER that war where Jadoth called his God’s name for help!

“Abaddon himself wasn’t sure if it’s right thing to do what was on His mind” – it’s stated here:
“Desperately, he prayed to Abaddon for deliverance. Abaddon was silent for a long period of time. When he answered, however, the answer was clear. "
- that means He was thinking about what to do. I can accept the fact that there is no clear statement that supports that He was fighting His thoughts about a right thing to do, BUT, it seems it wasn’t so easy choice what He did!
Why do you take time to do something when there is urgency? (man called for help)
It means that you are thinking about it, we can argue about 2 things here:
1. He knew what will mean if He would to create Margonites so He had 2nd thoughts about it
2. He needed time to prepare for such event

but you are the one who gave unsupported information, and a wrong one. A Very wrong one.
Margonites weren’t created before Forgottens killed every rampaging human except Jadoth in that war. And that is important information.
A really important information! I find this all very interesting, same as questions of OP.
I will do some more research about it all
Keep on discussion – I just wanted to clear out some things my friend. to put us on a right track

(edited by Mikali.9651)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

As you can see, Abaddon didn’t want to rule before they created Blood Stone.

No, there is no such indication of what his intentions were prior to the reduction of magic, beyond gifting magic too freely.

All we’re told is that his descent into evil was a long time coming, and that when his actions were revoked, he went after global domination.

Which is a very kitten huge step to take if you’re just mad that your gift to others was revoked. And turning a nation of humans into demonic entities is a very huge step to take if you’re just trying to save your followers from extinction.

Abaddon has a history of going too far with his actions even before his actions were revoked. And we were told that him turning evil was brewing for a long time. This heavily implies that his reactions were not merely overreactions. Which in turn means that there was premeditation for the events that were his rebellion.

Abaddon made a mistake, and there is no clear answer why the Wisest of them All didn’t stop and think about the problem He made – civilizations around the world used their magic to fight each others which in return endangered the world.

Someone as wise as Abaddon would likely have realized such would happen.

The problem we have is that we don’t really have a timeline. First sentence is something like a teaser on how did he become “the Evil One”; “Abaddon’s fall was not overnight, but the evil that was budding in his heart had many long years to simmer” which is then continued on events which explained how that happened.

Except we do have a timeline.

It began in year 1 BE, and ended in Year 0. Thus, we know that “the evil that was budding in his heart” predates his gift of magic (1 BE) since that was only one year – not years – prior to his fall (Year 0).

“Nothing says Jadoth was the last of the human Margonites.” – I didn’t say he was the last of the human Margonites – he was the last human, only one alive, after the fight between humans and Forgottens! There were NO Margonites at all!
They were created AFTER that war where Jadoth called his God’s name for help!

You’re contradicting yourself because “all [humans] in the war” were the entire human people called Margonites. If all in the war except Jadoth were killed, then all human Margonites except Jadoth were killed. Except this isn’t the case, as they built Thirsty River’s structures after the Exodus and the Crystal Sea turning into a desert.

Furthermore, the Margonites existed prior to the war – the Margonites were a human sea-faring nation long before Abaddon turned them into demons. They existed as far back as 175 BE – that’s 174 years before Jadoth was turned into the first demonic Margonite.

Yes, it’s a bit confusing that ArenaNet shares terminology.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Timeline

“Abaddon himself wasn’t sure if it’s right thing to do what was on His mind” – it’s stated here:
“Desperately, he prayed to Abaddon for deliverance. Abaddon was silent for a long period of time. When he answered, however, the answer was clear. "
- that means He was thinking about what to do. I can accept the fact that there is no clear statement that supports that He was fighting His thoughts about a right thing to do, BUT, it seems it wasn’t so easy choice what He did!
Why do you take time to do something when there is urgency? (man called for help)
It means that you are thinking about it, we can argue about 2 things here:
1. He knew what will mean if He would to create Margonites so He had 2nd thoughts about it
2. He needed time to prepare for such event

If it were so desperate a situation, then “a long time” would have been too long. Also, Abaddon being silence is not necessarily a means of debate or hesitation. It could be that Abaddon did not hear the prayer, did not consider to act on it at first, or was debating how to go about it. However, that said, his scriptures in-game also words it slightly differently, which gives a vastly different meaning:

_On the 51st day of his exodus, a frightful sight manifested before Jadoth’s eyes: the unmistakable shape of Forgotten warships upon the horizon’s shimmering edge. _

And prayed Jadoth, “Abaddon! Lord of the Everlasting Depths, Keeper of Secrets, open mine eyes and bestow upon me the knowledge of the Abyss that I might smite mine enemies and send them to the watery depths!”

An unsettling silence swept across the waves. The twilight sky shattered and stars streaked down upon the Forgotten armada. The seas boiled and ruptured, and gave birth to a maelstrom from which not even light could escape, and transforming the sky above into a midnight void.

Here that silence is not “Abaddon being silent” but rather “Abaddon causing silence” before “his answer was made clear”.

but you are the one who gave unsupported information, and a wrong one. A Very wrong one.
Margonites weren’t created before Forgottens killed every rampaging human except Jadoth in that war. And that is important information.
A really important information! I find this all very interesting, same as questions of OP.
I will do some more research about it all
Keep on discussion – I just wanted to clear out some things my friend. to put us on a right track

There is a vast difference between you disagreeing with my interpretation of a translated piece of lore, and me being unsupported.

There is also a vast difference between you not knowing lore, and me being wrong in the lore.

Prior to the Exodus – and even after – “Margonites” did not refer to demonic entities that were sterile but long-living, but rather referred to a nationality. No different than Krytans, Ascalonians, Americans, Chinese. These people were sea-farers who lived in the Crystal Sea and Clashing Seas, and were first seen in 175 BE.

Jadoth is “the first Margonite” only in that he was the first Margonite turned into a demonic entity by Abaddon.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ghostly_Hero_(PvE)#In_Thirsty_River
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Timeline

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

On the timeline- while I agree with you on all the rest, Konig, and I’m generally against efforts to romanticize Abaddon, the timeline has gotten shifted around since those first sources. Quoting Angel’s follow-up on the interview that set off that toxicity storm:

> Humans (including Canthan humans) were brought to Tyria (from…no spoilers!). They are not native to Tyria and did not come with much magic of their own. From a human perspective and oral tradition (that can get warped over time), they say the gods were giving them magic, but the reality was that the dragons had gone back to sleep, and the gods felt it was safe to begin returning magic stored in the Bloodstone to Tyria. The gods (not only Abaddon) “unsealed” the Bloodstone and magic flowed back into the world. Humans and other sentient races of the time began using it.

> Over the course of hundreds of years, wars broke out. King Doric begged the gods to slow the flow of magic back into Tyria and the gods granted his wish by shattering the Bloodstone into pieces and limiting their use. Abaddon was annoyed by this.

That does leave considerably more time for a prolonged fall, which keeps us from conclusively ruling out that the fiasco over magic is what turned him bad.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

That seems more to be relating not to “the gift of magic” which even more recent sources cite Abaddon as the sole giver but more in line with the events of the scriptures – particularly that of Grenth, and possibly Balthazar, Lyssa, and Dwayna.

I say this largely because all sources since Nightfall’s reveal have been “Abaddon gave the gift of magic” – even after McCoy gave that. If he’s the only one who gave magic then, but the gods gifted magic for over a hundred years prior, then the scriptures are likely prime examples of such.

And those wars were not related, by all indication, to Abaddon’s gift of magic but are probably referring to wars such as in the scriptures of Dwayna and Balthazar.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

Did Abaddon actually love humans?

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

That seems more to be relating not to “the gift of magic” which even more recent sources cite Abaddon as the sole giver but more in line with the events of the scriptures – particularly that of Grenth, and possibly Balthazar, Lyssa, and Dwayna.

…huh. I’ve always read that one too fast, I guess, and ended up seeing what I expected to see, but that more recent source? It’s not talking about Abaddon apportioning out magic at all. It says the physically gave the Bloodstone away.

I’m going to have to give that more of a think, but at the least, it doesn’t clash with what Angel said. All the gods could’ve gifted magic, with only Abaddon going so far as to gift the stone.

And those wars were not related, by all indication, to Abaddon’s gift of magic but are probably referring to wars such as in the scriptures of Dwayna and Balthazar.

I agree about the Scriptures, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t connected to Abaddon’s giving. What Angel said was “Over the course of hundreds of years, wars broke out. King Doric begged the gods to slow the flow of magic back into Tyria and the gods granted his wish by shattering the Bloodstone into pieces and limiting their use. Abaddon was annoyed by this.” She linked them all together- that the wars over hundreds of years were addressed by splitting the Bloodstone. That wouldn’t make sense unless the wars were linked to the gift of magic. The only question at this point is whether they were caused by something Abaddon specifically had done, or whether all the gods had a hand in it, and Abaddon was just the one who refused to agree to the proposed solution.

That in-game book could describe either- perhaps giving the stone itself to mortals let them have more than the other gods wanted, or at least gave them incentive to fight for the thing, or maybe it didn’t but splitting the stone and dropping it in a volcano put an end to whatever Abaddon was hoping to accomplish by giving it out. It all boils down to A.) what these anonymous races could’ve used the stone for, and B.) the reason Abaddon gave it out, both of which are huge question marks right now.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

And turning a nation of humans into demonic entities is a very huge step to take if you’re just trying to save your followers from extinction.

In fact, turning them into sterile demons guarantees that it’ll happen eventually. It’s like the Rite of the Great Dwarf – whether there’s one dwarf left or many, the Rite sealed their fate since unless it can be reversed, eventually every stone dwarf will die.

It may take centuries, millenia, or even longer, but sooner or later attrition will take them.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Narcemus.1348

Narcemus.1348

That seems more to be relating not to “the gift of magic” which even more recent sources cite Abaddon as the sole giver but more in line with the events of the scriptures – particularly that of Grenth, and possibly Balthazar, Lyssa, and Dwayna.

…huh. I’ve always read that one too fast, I guess, and ended up seeing what I expected to see, but that more recent source? It’s not talking about Abaddon apportioning out magic at all.

Based on some of the other things Nickolas says, his mention of giving the stone away, rather than magic away may have been a misunderstanding of his. It does seem like this is a summary of his, and as such might not be truly accurate.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

That seems more to be relating not to “the gift of magic” which even more recent sources cite Abaddon as the sole giver but more in line with the events of the scriptures – particularly that of Grenth, and possibly Balthazar, Lyssa, and Dwayna.

…huh. I’ve always read that one too fast, I guess, and ended up seeing what I expected to see, but that more recent source? It’s not talking about Abaddon apportioning out magic at all.

Based on some of the other things Nickolas says, his mention of giving the stone away, rather than magic away may have been a misunderstanding of his. It does seem like this is a summary of his, and as such might not be truly accurate.

It’s worded as a layman’s understanding of a scholar’s knowledge, yes, but every other line in there is factually accurate as far as the non-retconned portions of previous sources tell us. I don’t see anything that’d make me think that he got it wrong, or that the Priory that his source founded would keep it in their ‘Special Collection’ if it had a factual mistake.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Goldfox.5729

Goldfox.5729

Even after everything being said here… many arguments both positive and negative… some backed and unbacked… I must come to my one and only personal conclusion.

I love Abaddon!

No but really.. great discussion going on here

‘’Many have eyes, but few have seen.’’ – Scriptures of Lyssa, 45 BE