Guild Wars 2

Konig Des Todes.2086:

only the bit of the story we never heard

That point is like Groundhog Day for the Living Story, not just in GW1 but in GW2 itself.

Shiren.9532:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

only the bit of the story we never heard

That point is like Groundhog Day for the Living Story, not just in GW1 but in GW2 itself.

Do you mean the actual celebration or the movie?

I don’t know what the actual day is so I’m going with the movie (to be fair, I never watched it the whole way through, but given the premise I think I know the gist of it :P).

I was jokingly saying that it’s common a recurring defence/justification/explanation for lore threads created by the Living Story. We never heard or saw Scarlet’s diplomacy when forging her alliances, we never see the alliance factions reconciling their differences and weighing their motives to act, we never see that they are splinter groups not full members, we never see Rox experience prejudice as a gladium, we never see Aerin change from Pale Tree loving trader to “Soundless” psychopath, we never see a single Soundless away from the Weeping Isle or learn the mantra we supposedly recognise on the paper and for the almost four years we knew about Eir, we never had any indication that she had a son.

Individual scenarios aside, it’s just a critical observation of the Living Story’s trend to rely heavily on explaining stories and situations based on stuff that is never seen and sometimes even conflicts with how the world was perceived based on what was seen.

Varesh being one example. Konig’s point is true, it’s possible that the Kournans at one point in time prior to us exploring Elona had a co-operative relationship that later turns into the slavery we see. Unfortunately, as players we never see that co-operative relationship. We see the slavery relationship, that defines the Kournan/centaur relationship in our minds and to read later on that it was a co-operative one, that’s rewriting history at worst or at best it’s introducing “new old” lore that alters the way it should be viewed without giving the proper context to do so . It also defeats the purpose of referencing a legacy character like Varesh – why use her if you’re going to alter our perception of her story and character – why not reference a GW1 character that isn’t depicted at the time of the game as specifically enslaving the centaurs? It’s left to the player to make up an explanation for why it doesn’t match their experience in Nightfall.

Shiren.9532:

It’s left to the player to make up an explanation for why it doesn’t match their experience in Nightfall.

There’s no need to make up an explanation.

Just take both what you know from GW1 and what you read in Scarlet’s house at face value, and the answer presents itself. Unless you’re unaware of the concept of ‘propaganda’, in which case you should worry more about your general knowledge than the quality of a video game’s writing.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Shiren.9532:

It’s left to the player to make up an explanation for why it doesn’t match their experience in Nightfall.

There’s no need to make up an explanation.

Just take both what you know from GW1 and what you read in Scarlet’s house at face value, and the answer presents itself. Unless you’re unaware of the concept of ‘propaganda’, in which case you should worry more about your general knowledge than the quality of a video game’s writing.

^ this.

And likely it’s talking about a period slightly before the events of Nightfall, aka at first the Centaurs and Kournans worked together in a trade alliance, then the Kournans decided to stop paying and started enslaving the Centaurs.

But what leader, military dictator or just evil, hasn’t made things look better in their public announcements?

Didn’t the Kournans actually ally with the centaurs to enslave them? I thought the whole point of the centaur-rescue mission was that there were trusted centaurs who backstab Kourna to fight for their freedom?

Kain Francois.4328:

Didn’t the Kournans actually ally with the centaurs to enslave them? I thought the whole point of the centaur-rescue mission was that there were trusted centaurs who backstab Kourna to fight for their freedom?

The word “collaborator” comes to mind to describe such trusted centaurs. But I saw, personally, no such things. Only centaurs who decided doing what they were instructed was safer, so Kournan soldiers knew “this one isn’t going to be trouble”.

Kodonur Crossroads was an interesting mission in that regard.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Kain Francois.4328:

Didn’t the Kournans actually ally with the centaurs to enslave them? I thought the whole point of the centaur-rescue mission was that there were trusted centaurs who backstab Kourna to fight for their freedom?

The word “collaborator” comes to mind to describe such trusted centaurs. But I saw, personally, no such things. Only centaurs who decided doing what they were instructed was safer, so Kournan soldiers knew “this one isn’t going to be trouble”.

Kodonur Crossroads was an interesting mission in that regard.

History is rife with slaves/prisoners considered “broken” enough to allow more free movement. Or willing to betray other slaves/prisoners for food/perks. At the worst part of our US “chaingang” history some prisoners actually functioned as guards. Greenbadge common criminals were used as enforcers in concentration camps as well.

As for the Centaur with the Cell key? Well, some just aren’t as broken as they think.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Shiren.9532:

It’s left to the player to make up an explanation for why it doesn’t match their experience in Nightfall.

There’s no need to make up an explanation.

Just take both what you know from GW1 and what you read in Scarlet’s house at face value, and the answer presents itself. Unless you’re unaware of the concept of ‘propaganda’, in which case you should worry more about your general knowledge than the quality of a video game’s writing.

No need to insult people. I’m well aware of what propaganda is. Also aware of what a revision is. I’ll decide what label fits, thanks.

Ok, Varesh had a few years window to accomplish this “we didn’t see it” feat. Ok. But no free Centaur we work with brings it up despite the event having to be within somewhat recent memory? So now I have to assume, for poor plots sake, they all forgot. No matter. A wizard did it. Makes as much sense.

I’ll repeat. There were better Individuals and stories to bring forth as Scarletts inspiration without breaking lore.

“I recently read an account of ancient events in Tyria. It appears that a Vizier Khibron was able to dupe both the Shining Blade and a notable hero of the era into recovering the Sceptre of Orr for him freely and willingly. They happily and unknowingly handed the Sceptre to what was the Entity known as the Lich Lord. They blindly assumed they were following a path they chose, but fulfilling his plan instead. He used their motivation towards their own goal and subverted it to his. His “allies” fought through the mursatt and White Mantle for him and delivered him to the place he needed to be. His mistake was revealing himself far too early.

Delightful. I wonder what a more capable mind could do on a much grander scale. I plan to see.

There is much in this Tome on other interests as well."

This assumes of course that the events of prophecy were known and written of. No great leap for me. Cynd couldn’t hold her tongue, anyway.

Bit too late. I’m no writer, I’m a reader. That’s the “fill in the blanks” lore for myself, and I’ll leave Varesh Ossa out of it.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Ok, Varesh had a few years window to accomplish this “we didn’t see it” feat. Ok. But no free Centaur we work with brings it up despite the event having to be within somewhat recent memory? So now I have to assume, for poor plots sake, they all forgot. No matter. A wizard did it. Makes as much sense.

You’re, like, bound and determined to start nailing people to poles over this . . . complete non-issue with lore. Which gets explained by the immediate fridge logic if you bring it up as a problem:

“Oh, so it had to be a revision to lore to whitewash that whole thing.”

“You saw it was written by Varesh, apparently? Probably was just propaganda.”

“Okay, so why do none of the centaurs ever bring it up? Huh? Huh?!”

“You mean the ones bent on killing absolutely anyone who strays into their territory like the Harathi and the Tamini, or the ones who were never in Elona to begin with?”

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Ok, Varesh had a few years window to accomplish this “we didn’t see it” feat. Ok. But no free Centaur we work with brings it up despite the event having to be within somewhat recent memory? So now I have to assume, for poor plots sake, they all forgot. No matter. A wizard did it. Makes as much sense.

I don’t think any centaur in the game at the moment even has the slightest inkling about anything that has happened in Elona like, ever. And even if they did, why would they spontaneously start expounding on rather specific events that happened a few centuries ago on a different continent?

“Yeah, these people just fell out of the sky. I know, right? Tragic! And oh by the way, how about those Kournan slavers? You don’t? Well, settle in, this is a gonna be a long story. Have some oats.”

Makes sense.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Ok, Varesh had a few years window to accomplish this “we didn’t see it” feat. Ok. But no free Centaur we work with brings it up despite the event having to be within somewhat recent memory? So now I have to assume, for poor plots sake, they all forgot. No matter. A wizard did it. Makes as much sense.

I don’t think any centaur in the game at the moment even has the slightest inkling about anything that has happened in Elona like, ever. And even if they did, why would they spontaneously start expounding on rather specific events that happened a few centuries ago on a different continent?

“Yeah, these people just fell out of the sky. I know, right? Tragic! And oh by the way, how about those Kournan slavers? You don’t? Well, settle in, this is a gonna be a long story. Have some oats.”

Makes sense.

Blast away. Having fun? I’m speaking of Mirza Veldrunner, Zhed, the Centaur we helped in Kourna.. in the era of the supposed Varesh ally to slavery machination. Centaur who had every motivation to tell us of Kournan treachery to enlist our help freeing the captives and fighting the Margonite/Kournan forces. Yeah, those guys.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Ok, Varesh had a few years window to accomplish this “we didn’t see it” feat. Ok. But no free Centaur we work with brings it up despite the event having to be within somewhat recent memory? So now I have to assume, for poor plots sake, they all forgot. No matter. A wizard did it. Makes as much sense.

You’re, like, bound and determined to start nailing people to poles over this . . . complete non-issue with lore. Which gets explained by the immediate fridge logic if you bring it up as a problem:

“Oh, so it had to be a revision to lore to whitewash that whole thing.”

“You saw it was written by Varesh, apparently? Probably was just propaganda.”

“Okay, so why do none of the centaurs ever bring it up? Huh? Huh?!”

“You mean the ones bent on killing absolutely anyone who strays into their territory like the Harathi and the Tamini, or the ones who were never in Elona to begin with?”

Uh, the Centaur we were helping vs Kournan forces in Elona at the time. Zhed, Mirza, etc. The ones that apparently forgot the treachery and alliance turned slavery that had recently happened. In other words, more “fill in the blanks somehow”. These “tiny” offhand revisions have a ripple effect, leading to more blanks to fill in or ignore. I’m voicing an opinion about revisions in general, which are becoming common sauce.

And yeah, someone needs to be somewhat nailed to a pole. Why is that an issue, since you are happily nailing me to one?

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Blast away. Having fun? I’m speaking of Mirza Veldrunner, Zhed, the Centaur we helped in Kourna.. in the era of the supposed Varesh ally to slavery machination. Centaur who had every motivation to tell us of Kournan treachery to enlist our help freeing the captives and fighting the Margonite/Kournan forces. Yeah, those guys.

I think you need to read the in-game book page again.

“Letters sent home from soldiers in the Kournan army have given us great insight into their lives. In the eleventh century A.E., their leader Varesh Ossa inspired great loyalty.”

It wasn’t a “Varesh book”, but apparently a book somehow concerned with the lives of 11th century Kournan soldiers. It looks like a page from a book written well after the fact, seeing how it explicitly states the century. It was obviously written from a very uninformed position by someone with access to very limited sources, being letters from Kournan soldiers. Elonian centaurs were probably unavailable to comment.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Whatever. Take your lore from a 2nd rate hack arrogant enough to 1 Star JRR Tolkien and yet unwilling to take criticism of their own work.

See ya.

Well, you’re one who can speak from a position of authority about being unwilling to take criticism, so I’ll give you that.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Whatever. See ya.

Well, you’re one who can speak from a position of authority about being unwilling to take criticism, so I’ll give you that.

I’m voicing an opinion. I haven’t seen much to sway it. Pardon me for that. If you want to criticize my delivery… yes, I’m tactless, argumentative and stick to my position until overwhelmed by evidence or apathy. I am far from the only player unimpressed by LS writing, but may be the most unlikeable.

And I will stop now. There is a lot of commentary in this thread that doesn’t deserve being locked. Hopefully after my ban only my posts will be removed.

I apologize to the other posters in this thread. My attitude and apathy about being infracted or banned led me to post as I did.

I loved Guild Wars and the lore. No excuse. I am sorry.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Uh, the Centaur we were helping vs Kournan forces in Elona at the time. Zhed, Mirza, etc. The ones that apparently forgot the treachery and alliance turned slavery that had recently happened. In other words, more “fill in the blanks somehow”.

Right, they might not have mentioned it because that bit never happened. It’s just being invented in this thread by people.

Seriously, the only source for claims of an alliance actually existing or being a pretense to begin enslavement has begun in this thread as theories by players. Ditto for it being some sort of entrancement meant for the Kournan people by Varesh to keep them from rebelling.

It’s players making this stuff up you talk about having to dance around or ignore, not ArenaNet’s writing team.

These “tiny” offhand revisions have a ripple effect, leading to more blanks to fill in or ignore. I’m voicing an opinion about revisions in general, which are becoming common sauce.

. . . is it a revision, or another example like the White Mantle / Shining Blade propaganda matters going around in Kryta way back when? Like people basically being strong-armed into saying “Shining Blade did it” when it was White Mantle because they might “disappear”?

(See: Hot Springs Murders)

I’m with you on being careful with revisions and additions propped up as answers to questions which weren’t being asked. This isn’t such a case.

And yeah, someone needs to be somewhat nailed to a pole. Why is that an issue, since you are happily nailing me to one?

Meh, I forgot the hammer anyway. I’m too mellow to find the rope anyway.

Seriously, we agree on the core of the problem you’re on about, but I think you’re going after this pointlessly – this isn’t ArenaNet making this a problem with the lore. It’s the players making a mess of this thing.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

I’m voicing an opinion. I haven’t seen much to sway it. Pardon me for that. If you want to criticize my delivery… yes, I’m tactless, argumentative and stick to my position until overwhelmed by evidence or apathy. I am far from the only player unimpressed by LS writing, but may be the most unlikeable.

And I will stop now. There is a lot of commentary in this thread that doesn’t deserve being locked. Hopefully after my ban only my posts will be removed.

I apologize to the other posters in this thread. My attitude and apathy about being infracted or banned led me to post as I did.

I loved Guild Wars and the lore. No excuse. I am sorry.

I can be brutally honest too.

There’s actually little of worth in this thread to be honest. Practically no one on the first page has any idea what they’re talking about, ranging from thinking it’s a book written by Varesh to reverting, again, to attacking the game’s writers, instead of discussing what’s actually said on the in-game page.

Manasa Devi.7958:

There’s actually little of worth in this thread to be honest. Practically no one on the first page has any idea what they’re talking about, ranging from thinking it’s a book written by Varesh to reverting, again, to attacking the game’s writers, instead of discussing what’s actually said on the in-game page.

On that note, there’s little more to discuss here. Have a good time in game, and don’t take it too seriously.

(Where’s my mount, I heard they were supposed to be coming soon . . .)

@ Tobias
No problem, I have made a practice of providing the rope at my own hangings.. or pole nailing I guess.

I can only hope my new flying shark mount has a lazor hat.

This thread is the perfect illustration of the art of looking for a problem that does not exist.

From a kournan soldier perspective, it’s easy to see the point. Kourna was a military province, soldiers were at the top of the social hierarchy, so artisans were working for them. So is the same for centaurs, who were not dominant in Kourna. Sort of protectorate.

Kournan artisans and centaurs, who were at the bottom of the social hierarchy of Kourna, formed a kind of alliance (in the eyes of those soldiers) which benefited the kournan army.

Kourna lore is still fine.

Completely ignored my question about the Mursaat. :(

Oh? The mursaat, huh?

Boneheart.3561:

How did we learn of the Mursaat? I only remember them being brought up as the actual bad guys when talking to that Seer. There’s some things I’ve been looking to get answered about them, too, if you would happen to know. I think it’s still a mystery, but where is their homeland? And why did they kill those White Mantle at the Charr warcamp, they had a pretty solid religious following already, why the culling? D’Alessio(?) was never heard of again after they took him?

In order:

- We learned of them first as “The Unseen”, masters of the White Mantle. Which by the time we hit Maguuma missions, was revealed to be . . . just a little shady.

- We don’t know of their homeland. It’s presumed the Isles of Janthir since that’s where Saul D’Alessio went and came back with the mention of the Unseen and started the White Mantle.

- No, we never heard of Saul after they took him.

- Why kill the soldiers of the Mantle? To remain “Unseen” . . . at least to the bulk of them. The mursaat are, for the most part, pretty cowardly.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

- We learned of them first as “The Unseen”, masters of the White Mantle. Which by the time we hit Maguuma missions, was revealed to be . . . just a little shady.

Right. From my perspective, though, at that point I figured their “gods” were just a sham and didn’t exist (I mean, right? Wouldn’t be the first time). It would’ve helped if I had been attacked with Agony before being able to see them.

Thank you.

i didn’t play nightfall, but

Those are Varesh’s words according to a Kournan soldier as documented in a letter torn from a book.

People commenting about how useless this thread is (or making condescending remarks about propaganda) are wrong.

We’ve seen several arguments:

• This is a retcon on GW1 lore. Centaurs were slaves not allies.
• This is not a retcon on GW1 lore but an expansion on it from a point in time we never saw back then. Centaur/Kournan relationships started out as co-operative and devolved into slavery.
• This is a piece of Propaganda from Varesh/Kourna seeking to rewrite history, GW1 lore is preserved and the lesson from the book still remains.
• This is an unreliable source of information written long after the fact by a sholar who either used bias sources spreading the misinformation, or it simply got it wrong.

For a two page thread on a couple paragraphs of text that’s a fairly robust discussion with a number of possible explanations. That’s exactly what this subforum exists for, to discuss the lore in the game, propose ideas and challenge them. The end result is most of us (hopefully) walk away with more information or a perspective we hadn’t considered. If you think that kind of discussion isn’t useful, why read and post here?

Manasa Devi.7958:

Shiren.9532:

It’s left to the player to make up an explanation for why it doesn’t match their experience in Nightfall.

There’s no need to make up an explanation.

Just take both what you know from GW1 and what you read in Scarlet’s house at face value, and the answer presents itself. Unless you’re unaware of the concept of ‘propaganda’, in which case you should worry more about your general knowledge than the quality of a video game’s writing.

At no point do I rule out propaganda as a possible explanation. I specifically deal with that as an option – it’s exhausting the “NPC perspective thus unreliable” crutch used to make stories stand up – the unreliable NPC in this case is the author of the book, the reason for them being unreliable can range from propaganda to facts lost to time to anything else. If you’re going to condescend someone suggesting they don’t know what propaganda is, maybe be clear they haven’t explicitly covered that as an explanation in their first post on the topic.

My primary point from my first post is that this letter exists to provide background on Scarlet, not to make a statement on Kournan/Centaur relations. The last two releases have been relying heavily on sources like this to explain Scarlet’s… abilities after the fact. She was heavily criticised for her over accomplishing nature and the writers consistently write like this to explain her (that’s why What Scarlet Saw foreshadows every alliance – a smith, weapon expert, toxic pollent expert – now we have Varesh, the Kournan diplomat).

Ultimately for the purpose of this book (establish a source for the players to see how Scarlet went from newborn sylvari to political chess player) it doesn’t matter who wrote the book about centaurs/Kournans or whether either of those things are historically accurate. All that matters to the core purpose for this book is that Scarlet, while studying how to make her plans come into effect, got the idea to combine two difference races’ strengths into a more powerful alliance from this book. If nothing else, Scarlet getting a successful idea from a book designed to misinform, seems rather ironic to me.

Belzebu.3912:

Those are the words of Ossa, not the developers.

My propaganda-senses are tingling.

Yes, this is told through Varesh Ossa’s outlook on things. It’s easy to assume she was conceited and saw things differently.

Yesterday, I finally had the misfortune to encounter this half-kittened attempt to explain how Scarlet kept her alliances together. It’s funny that they think by “referring” to GW1 lore — that they so fondly violate — to patch the plot holes in their shoddy writing, all will be forgiven.

Anyway… I noticed the quote was changed to this:

“If one ally is good, then two is better. And if they work together toward a goal, then they ascend their own limitations and become more than the sum of their parts.”

(Off-topic: The writer who came up with this incoherent rambling (“If properly convinced…”) and dared force someone as silver-tounged as Warmarshal Varesh Ossa to “lend her voice” to it should really consider changing careers. No wonder it was stealthily changed to something more diplomatic and cunning.)

I really don’t have anything against the implication that the centaurs were lured into a corporative alliance which first turned into the deprivation of their rights combined with the seizure of their ancestral lands, then outright slavery in the end. In the Sunspear Sanctuary we saw human and centaur artisans working side by side to help the resistance (that might’ve been a sign they were willing to start anew and resume the partnership from which they’d both gained). I can easily see Varesh doing this. It makes sense.

What ticks me off, however:

The attempt to explain how Scarlet made xenophobic, self-supremacist, ill-tempered factions to sit down, listen, and comply — without slaughtering each other and the worthless twig that dared approach them — was a failure again. Even if we take that pathetic first quote (which makes little to no sense) and assume that the evil factions are truly as stupid as they look (not quitting after the first resounding defeat but continuing to unwittingly serve a crazed liar whose promises of victory and the attainment of their goals keep eluding them), we only learn of the method she used to persuade them… which McCoy did try to explain once on these forums, which raised even more questions and inconsistencies than compelling answers. However, on one hand we have a charismatic demagogue such as Varesh Ossa, of whom it is significantly easier to imagine to make two parties cooperate despite the fact their their dogmas would compel them to kill everyone who’s not them on sight, and on the other we have Scarlet Briar, an annoying, arrogant, egoistical, whimsical lunatic. She can study the persuasive skills of historic figures from Kaineng Tah to Vizier Khilbron, it won’t make a difference as the sort of charisma she would need to pull off these impossible feats cannot be learned. Especially when it is mutually exclusive with a personality like Scarlet’s.

And now with this change to Varesh’s speech we still get no believable explanation as to just how Briar managed to control these violent brutes and make them so blindly loyal. What we learned is from where she got the notion to combine groups of diverse technological, alchemical, and magical background to serve her grand schemes.

Edit: What’s more, that book perfectly shows how flawed Scarlet’s concept is. Varesh Ossa inspired loyalty in her army, praised her troops, gave them the incentive as well as the means to make their nation stronger. She conquered, defended, enslaved, and fanaticized (turning away many from the Five True Gods to the worship of Abaddon). What did Briar do? Made promises she’d never delivered on (déja vu with the entirety of “GW2”), kept morale low by constant threats, executions, and general apathy toward the well-being of her troops, then failed, failed, failed, and failed (and maybe failed once more). True, only her “alliances” lost while she gained what she’d needed from these doomed partnerships…

It doesn’t take a Sherlock Holmes to deduct how utterly nonsensical the creation and impossible survival of her puppet armies are.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Ok, Varesh had a few years window to accomplish this “we didn’t see it” feat. Ok. But no free Centaur we work with brings it up despite the event having to be within somewhat recent memory? So now I have to assume, for poor plots sake, they all forgot. No matter. A wizard did it. Makes as much sense.

No, they don’t bring it up. Just as Germans do not bring up World War 2. Instead what we get is a enraged Zhed who sees us as no more than means to an end. Zhed was pretty close to hating humanity but the only reason he cooperated was because we were the only assistance he had. The whole, “Enemy of my enemy is my not-so friend.” Motivation was a powerful unseen element.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Basically that under the premise of an alliance and working together, the centaurs “accepted” slavery.

I don’t see this as contradicting GW1 lore, just not telling the full story – only the bit of the story we never heard in GW1.

Agreed. If anything it’s telling the story from her eyes prior to the events of Nightfall, which we as players never got to witness. From what I infer on her writing is that she knew what she was doing and she was remarking on the fact that the Centaurs did not and instead fell for it. They had to eventually get bound in chains sooner or later, this “alliance” was likely that precursor.

Thalador.4218:

The attempt to explain how Scarlet made xenophobic, self-supremacist, ill-tempered factions to sit down, listen, and comply — without slaughtering each other --

I’m afraid you’re wrong on this.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mysterious_Device
Mysterious devices :

Use the Translator.
Was nearly discovered at last drop. Flame Legion are getting suspicious. Or Antsy. They don’t like being this deep underground, away from the sun. Having Baelfire rituals more often.
Leave

Use the Translator.
The dredge and Flame Legion fought today. Cracks in the partnership are showing. Even in victory, they’re uneasy among each other. I’m trying to learn more but keep hitting a wall.
Leave

Use the Translator.
Big Fight. A Flame Legion shaman refused to give flame magic to moletariat-selected dredge. They burned him alive, and the dredge got their disturbing transformation. Watch out for them.
Leave

Exactly… that was when the story still had a believable direction.

Even when things were looking up they hated each other. All their facilities were destroyed, their highest-ranking officers killed, their plans foiled, goals further out of reach than before, massive personnel loss, slaves escaped…

… and five months later they are back in full power, still together, but more witless, goalless pawns of Scarlet than ever, appearing all over Tyria with an invasion force that exceeds that of the Pact’s entire military and navy several times over. And afterwards they still appear during the sacking of Lion’s Arch.

Of course it exceeds in number the Pact military – that’s game mechanics screwing over lore because of how events had to scale up amounts.

Thalador.4218:

Exactly… that was when the story still had a believable direction.

Even when things were looking up they hated each other. All their facilities were destroyed, their highest-ranking officers killed, their plans foiled, goals further out of reach than before, massive personnel loss, slaves escaped…

… and five months later they are back in full power, still together, but more witless, goalless pawns of Scarlet than ever, appearing all over Tyria with an invasion force that exceeds that of the Pact’s entire military and navy several times over. And afterwards they still appear during the sacking of Lion’s Arch.

I imagine when your boss is killed and the one that forced him into the alliance tells you to do something (you being a desperate villain), you’re like to do it. Even better, without the direction of your higher-ups, as a grunt, you’re more susceptible to influence, be it a threat on your life, or a promotion.

Follow a lone lunatic who forced me to cooperate with those stinking charr*/*dredge, and led us to a greater defeat than the one that had forced us into this miserable alliance in the first place? (Death of the generals and war minister of the dredge regime, death of Imperator Baelfire, the Burnt warband Tribune, and the destruction of their newest superweapon for the Flame Legion.)

No thanks. I’d rather return to maintaining order among the rebellious workers spitting on the glorious moletariate*/*rally behind a powerful hierophant who will fill in the power vacuum left by Baelfire with my new fire magic*/*sonic weapons than follow that accursed twig into the unknown. I don’t care for her goals and she’ll be drilled open*/*burned when my comrades*/*shamans show Tyria and all its vermin real power.

Thalador.4218:

Follow a lone lunatic who forced me to cooperate with those stinking charr*/*dredge, and led us to a greater defeat than the one that had forced us into this miserable alliance in the first place? (Death of the generals and war minister of the dredge regime, death of Imperator Baelfire, the Burnt warband Tribune, and the destruction of their newest superweapon for the Flame Legion.)

No thanks. I’d rather return to maintaining order among the rebellious workers spitting on the glorious moletariate*/*rally behind a powerful hierophant who will fill in the power vacuum left by Baelfire with my new fire magic*/*sonic weapons than follow that accursed twig into the unknown. I don’t care for her goals and she’ll be drilled open*/*burned when my comrades*/*shamans show Tyria and all its vermin real power.

Scarlet: And now you’re dead. Next! You, do what I tell you.

Again, you give Suesque powers to Scarlet. F-

In a logical situation, the survivors would’ve banded together and either lynched Scarlet or done as Marshal Trahearne would: moving on!

Thalador.4218:

Again, you give Suesque powers to Scarlet. F-

In a logical situation, the survivors would’ve banded together and either lynched Scarlet or done as Marshal Trahearne would: moving on!

She was established as a Mary Sue when you first meet her. At least for me, that was half the reason I didn’t like her and half of what made her unlikable.

That is the font of most Scarlet-related issues. Any more addition (like her ability to keep together these flawed alliance despite their staggering losses and her totally incompetent skills at leadership) to that makes the story even more nonsensical.

I didn’t phrase my point well in the post above: I don’t doubt that Scarlet did as you suggested (killing all dissenters), but in a world where the story would make sense — god forbid — she couldn’t inspire the kind of loyalty to continuously keep these once fully independent forces in their place (no matter the retribution or the seductive allure of false promises). They would rebel and break up… or better; join forces one last time to rebel and punish Scarlet for the defeat she dragged them into.

Thalador.4218:

That is the font of most Scarlet-related issues. Any more addition (like her ability to keep together these flawed alliance despite their staggering losses and her totally incompetent skills at leadership) to that makes the story even more nonsensical.

I didn’t phrase my point well in the post above: I don’t doubt that Scarlet did as you suggested (killing all dissenters), but in a world where the story would make sense — god forbid — she couldn’t inspire the kind of loyalty to continuously keep these once fully independent forces in their place (no matter the retribution or the seductive allure of false promises). They would rebel and break up… or better; join forces one last time to rebel and punish Scarlet for the defeat she dragged them into.

What did she promise them? I know the krait were in it for the prophets, catching a glimpse of a well-dressed lie. The Molten Alliance was just flat-out better firepower?

Thalador.4218:

That is the font of most Scarlet-related issues. Any more addition (like her ability to keep together these flawed alliance despite their staggering losses and her totally incompetent skills at leadership) to that makes the story even more nonsensical.

I didn’t phrase my point well in the post above: I don’t doubt that Scarlet did as you suggested (killing all dissenters), but in a world where the story would make sense — god forbid — she couldn’t inspire the kind of loyalty to continuously keep these once fully independent forces in their place (no matter the retribution or the seductive allure of false promises). They would rebel and break up… or better; join forces one last time to rebel and punish Scarlet for the defeat she dragged them into.

For every alliance, she gave them something they wanted or needed. For the dredge and charr, more firepower to strike back at the ones who dared stand in their way. For the Aetherblades and Inquest, better technology for them to do their stealing evils. For the krait and Nightmare court, a combination of spreading a nightmare across Tyria.

She did a good job getting them together verbally (she has a snake’s tongue), and probably knew they wouldn’t last too long…so she made use of them for what little she needed out of the deal. Wouldn’t have surprised me if she planned to kill them all anyway.

Boneheart.3561:

Thalador.4218:

Again, you give Suesque powers to Scarlet. F-

In a logical situation, the survivors would’ve banded together and either lynched Scarlet or done as Marshal Trahearne would: moving on!

She was established as a Mary Sue when you first meet her. At least for me, that was half the reason I didn’t like her and half of what made her unlikable.

I didn’t see her as a Mary Sue after taking a step back and looking at the whole.

Unfortunately, ANet did no favors by adding a lot of material in places the players wouldn’t naturally look – in a short story released on their page. Then in some not-usual dialogue, along with a lot of “rumors” about her which started to surface which later turned out to not be 100% factual.

But by that point, everyone had already determined she was a Sue and that was that.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Boneheart.3561:

Thalador.4218:

Again, you give Suesque powers to Scarlet. F-

In a logical situation, the survivors would’ve banded together and either lynched Scarlet or done as Marshal Trahearne would: moving on!

She was established as a Mary Sue when you first meet her. At least for me, that was half the reason I didn’t like her and half of what made her unlikable.

I didn’t see her as a Mary Sue after taking a step back and looking at the whole.

Unfortunately, ANet did no favors by adding a lot of material in places the players wouldn’t naturally look – in a short story released on their page. Then in some not-usual dialogue, along with a lot of “rumors” about her which started to surface which later turned out to not be 100% factual.

But by that point, everyone had already determined she was a Sue and that was that.

“Dialogue”?

The back-story articles don’t seem to dismiss her Mary Sue-ness. If anything they enhance it, which brings me to the second half of her unlikability/why I don’t like her: her exceptional scholarships we’ve never heard of.
Your perspective?

Boneheart.3561:

The back-story articles don’t seem to dismiss her Mary Sue-ness. If anything they enhance it, which brings me to the second half of her unlikability/why I don’t like her: her exceptional scholarships we’ve never heard of.
Your perspective?

Well, everyone knows I’m an ANet apologist so why should my perspective matter in this? I don’t think anyone wants me to go into it . . . again . . . just to reach the same conclusion . . . again . . . that I don’t know what I’m talking about and think ANet can do no wrong.

So, my perspective? I already gave it. “She wasn’t a Villain Sue.” If you want answers more than that, my post history is open and you should still be able to find the discussions in there.

Eh, I would say she was a “Villain Sue” but that’s not necessarily a bad thing by title alone. The problem I had was in how she was delivered, which had to do with the script. Shame too because that voice actor is pretty good but be it laziness or or not enough investment; some notes on the character just fell flat.

I read that book as a bit of “history whitewashing” by the author. Perhaps he/she genuinely knew that the centaurs were enslaved by the Kournans, but they were deliberately trying to cover it up. (In real life terms, it’s similar to how Japanese history textbooks will hardly mention anything about WW2, or how Turkey denies that the Armenian genocide took place.) Or maybe they were just written a sage who obtained second-hand accounts from said propagandists, and were simply relating what they’d been told without knowing the truth of what happened.

We, as GW1 players, know the truth, of course, but the in-game author possibly didn’t.

Zaxares.5419:

We, as GW1 players, know the truth, of course, but the in-game author possibly didn’t.

Oh, Varesh knew quite well what she was doing. :P

They should probably just give up explaining how Scarlet formed these alliances. It was completely unbelievable and best forgotten. Reading how to become the greatest negotiator of your generation from a book, that just happened to be in your possession, during your spare time when you’re not being the worlds greatest scientist, is no more believable.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Boneheart.3561:

The back-story articles don’t seem to dismiss her Mary Sue-ness. If anything they enhance it, which brings me to the second half of her unlikability/why I don’t like her: her exceptional scholarships we’ve never heard of.
Your perspective?

Well, everyone knows I’m an ANet apologist so why should my perspective matter in this? I don’t think anyone wants me to go into it . . . again . . . just to reach the same conclusion . . . again . . . that I don’t know what I’m talking about and think ANet can do no wrong.

So, my perspective? I already gave it. “She wasn’t a Villain Sue.” If you want answers more than that, my post history is open and you should still be able to find the discussions in there.

Screw that, I’m discussing with you, not a kitten post history.

Ronin.7381:

Zaxares.5419:

We, as GW1 players, know the truth, of course, but the in-game author possibly didn’t.

Oh, Varesh knew quite well what she was doing. :P

Varesh wasn’t the author of that book though. The book QUOTES Varesh, but there’s nothing in it stating that she actually wrote it. (Usually rulers don’t have the time or inclination to write books.)

Boneheart.3561:

Screw that, I’m discussing with you, not a kitten post history.

Not in this topic you’re not.

Might I suggest you find a friendly necromancer and start looking for the right topic for this?