Guild Wars 2

I have to disagree with most of you. I think the storyline is progressing fairly nicely. For those who are disappointed with the lack of content, I can only blame your ignorance. Multiple devs said January was just a prelude, and Colin even said before the Feb patch that you still would see small things progressing but the big storyline content wouldnt hit until March and April. I can already see mulitple narratives playing out. First, the main one, is the activity between the flame legion and dredge. The second is the suspicious nature of the Consortium. I think it could be an opportunity for this small branch of the storyline to progress into Southsun cove and we would see changes there as well, maybe even have upgraded events and lore in the zone. Another one I can think of are some npcs. The dead merchant, and his bodyguard came in Jan. The bodyguard has disappeared in the feb patch. Perhaps anet didnt feel it served a purpose, or perhaps there is something more mischevious in the nature. Another interesting one I liked, a tid bit, is how in Diessa plateau, an npc talks about how some cubs were killed when he escaped the attacks of the flame legion. There is a cub in Lions arch in the refugee camp that specifically talks about escaping as well. I think they are talking about the same incident. It would be cool to see a reuniting between the cubs and the older fellow I think. Give it a rest on the criticism. The Living Story has kept to its word in my opinion. Weekly we saw small changes to the camps and npcs in Jan. Lets see what happens this month.

Ashebyrne.8352:

But really my question do people see the Flame Legion joining forces, admittedly temporarily, and if so how/why? Would it just be a tactical reason i.e underground forces? Or would their leaders have something or someone in common?

We’ve seen that the charr of the other legions have learned to work with other races – and also that the Flame Legion have felt the results of that when the pact joined with the other legions to clean out the Flame Citadel. It’s probably simply the case of seeing that if they didn’t start making alliances, it was inevitable that they’d eventually be overwhelmed.

A note to Konig, Primordus does corrupt, see the dialog for the personal story part “The Hatchery” (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Hatchery).

That aside, I can see the shadow of Primordus behind this.

The Flame Legion needs gods, and they want gods related to fire. They once worshiped the destroyers, but we know how that ended, right? However, I wouldn’t put it past them to take on the actual dragon as their target of worship.

The dredge live underground, deep underground. They dig, and they dig. Now, the moletariat is losing it’s yoke over the dredge, so they’re going to grasp every bit of power they can, who knows, maybe that power might just come from a dragon.

And Primordus… He’s flame underground. When destroyers invaded the depths in GW1, fissures appeared around the world. Have we seen fissures in Flame & Frost? Yes we have.

Now, I’m not saying that the dredge and FL would serve the elder dragon. Instead of being ordered by it, I’d see them riding on it’s name, their leaders fortifying their position by appearing to be siding with an all powerful dragon Primordus.

What do people think is the connection to the little chimney/breaches that keep on appearing along the paths – I am sure there are more than there were. Also the uncontrolled elementals. Is this the dredge digging underground making tunnels to the capitals – disturbing elementals along the way (or some elemental powered tunneling device) that using it disruptes the weather?
Thanks draxynnic – that would make sense

@Tuomir: That one’s unclear – the characters hypothesise that a creature that was corrupted may be laying the eggs, but we’ve seen that not every theory is correct. The eggs may have had nothing to do with corrupting an existing creature.

draxynnic.3719:

@Tuomir: That one’s unclear – the characters hypothesise that a creature that was corrupted may be laying the eggs, but we’ve seen that not every theory is correct. The eggs may have had nothing to do with corrupting an existing creature.

Well, in Sieran’s case, she states that the Priory has documented such corrupted creatures:

Priory records have documented such creatures. They were pregnant when they were corrupted. Or it might be something new.

Though she doesn’t state outright that these other cases were corrupted by Primordus, so it’s possible these past cases were corrupted by a different ED, and as you said, in the specific case of the Hatchery, it is still just a theory, even if it is based on prior documented cases.

In any case it’s quite an interesting avenue of discussion. Primordus’s MO has been to destroy, not corrupt, life in the past – but what if in some way it’s come around to seeing the value in corrupting living creatures? Since the Destroyer Queen in the Hatchery seemed to be a new creature, it could be a recent change – and if so, it’s possible Primordus could have a connection to the events of Flame and Frost.

This is pure conjecture, mind you, but I think it’s an interesting possibility. The nature of the Elder Dragons is still very mysterious, so I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility than in some ways the Elder Dragons might modify their tactics and habits.

My point wasn’t how the Destroyer was laying eggs – it was how the characters take it as obvious that the creature WAS corrupted, whether it was during being pregnant (kind of weird, by the way, considering it laid eggs…) or not.

Tuomir.1830:

A note to Konig, Primordus does corrupt, see the dialog for the personal story part “The Hatchery” (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Hatchery).

Wrong. Note that the mentor makes two conjectors: either its a being that was pregnant when corrupted, or its a new kind of minion.

In the next steps, you’d note that the eggs hatch full grown crabs and yes, even trolls. Last time I checked, a crab cannot give birth to a fully grown crab or even to trolls. Destroyer or not.

Ergo, it’s a new kind of minion – one that creates mobile one-being incubated spawning pools (we know from Edge of Destiny that destroyers are formed over time in vats of lava).

Plus, we were told a while back that Primordus creates mimicries of other races. So he’s either inexplicably changed his MO – and this “Destroyer Queen”‘s physiology to the point where it can lay eggs that spawn a different species, or it’s just a new kind of minion.

I’m considering an Occram’s razor, until other evidence is presented.

Tuomir.1830:

The dredge live underground, deep underground. They dig, and they dig. Now, the moletariat is losing it’s yoke over the dredge, so they’re going to grasp every bit of power they can, who knows, maybe that power might just come from a dragon.

In Frostgorge Sound there’s a kodan who, after an event, mentions how the dredge are “pulling an asura” – that is, they’re trying to live on the surface and that’s why they’re trying to take so much land. It seems Primordus is pushing them out, so I don’t think that they’d be wanting to deal with Primordus if they’re fleeing from him. I’m beginning to think the Destroyer of Worlds controlled by the moletariate was a bit of a one-time thing – it did cause one moletariate member (at least) to rebel, after all.

Caledore.6271:

Well, in Sieran’s case, she states that the Priory has documented such corrupted creatures:

Priory records have documented such creatures. They were pregnant when they were corrupted. Or it might be something new.

Though she doesn’t state outright that these other cases were corrupted by Primordus, so it’s possible these past cases were corrupted by a different ED, and as you said, in the specific case of the Hatchery, it is still just a theory, even if it is based on prior documented cases.

There are a lot of risen which lay eggs – risen, being undead, shouldn’t be capable of reproducing. There’s also a Branded Devourer Queen in Iron Marches (the meta event) which spawns Branded Devourer Hatchlings, iirc.

So she’s likely referring to other dragon minions.

Though this isn’t to say that Primordus can’t corrupt living beings. It just seems he doesn’t – and this is the closest possibility to Primordus ever having done so. If you’re part of the Vigil, Fergal says that this is something unheard of and it may be that Primordus is “learning new tricks” – so unless the Priory kept this vital information from the Vigil (something I both doubt and wouldn’t be surprised about), I’m betting Seiran meant a different Elder Dragon. Especially since, once again, in the following story mission (if you go to rescue the skritt), there are eggs which hatch full grown crabs and trolls (possibly harpies, though idk if they came from eggs or were always-present mobs).

In GW2, I can see more indications of Primordus corrupting minions than creating them. That the mentor NPCs say it migth be a new kind of minion doesn’t mean it couldn’t be corrupted – Zhaitan, for example, corrupts minions for multiple purposes, like how Risen Knights have wings.

Also, I don’t remember the trolls spawning from the eggs during Set to Blow, but from the ground, but it was a long time ago so I could remember that bit wrong.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There are a lot of risen which lay eggs – risen, being undead, shouldn’t be capable of reproducing. There’s also a Branded Devourer Queen in Iron Marches (the meta event) which spawns Branded Devourer Hatchlings, iirc.

So she’s likely referring to other dragon minions.

Though this isn’t to say that Primordus can’t corrupt living beings. It just seems he doesn’t – and this is the closest possibility to Primordus ever having done so. If you’re part of the Vigil, Fergal says that this is something unheard of and it may be that Primordus is “learning new tricks” – so unless the Priory kept this vital information from the Vigil (something I both doubt and wouldn’t be surprised about), I’m betting Seiran meant a different Elder Dragon. Especially since, once again, in the following story mission (if you go to rescue the skritt), there are eggs which hatch full grown crabs and trolls (possibly harpies, though idk if they came from eggs or were always-present mobs).

Good point that the Priory would probably not withhold such information from the Vigil, and given that you are probably correct that Seiran was referring to another ED.

Still, the possibility that Primordus might be ‘learning new tricks’ is a very interesting one. Given their alien nature, it’s difficult to give human-like motives to the Elder Dragons – none the less, I do wonder if Primordus in some way has come to recognize the value of corrupting living creatures (if in fact the Queen represents a corrupted living creature). Even if its goal is still to ultimately destroy life, it could still use living creatures as tools to eventually be discarded.

I do hesitate to assign humanoid motivations to the Dragons, but I also find their nature fascinating, so the possibility that Primordus might have changed tactics and ‘learned new tricks’ is something I’d be curious to see is continued in Flame and Frost, or other future living story content. It’d give us another glimpse into the nature of the Elder Dragons.

I doubt it’s a simple case of “learning new tricks” (or rather, changing his MO), given – as I said – some of those eggs spawn destroyer trolls.

As to Primordus being related to the Molten Alliance – I’m increasingly doubting it, simply due to how Anet describes that “personal nemesis” (which I’m beginning to believe is the cause behind said alliance). I don’t think an Elder Dragon would be such.

You say that Primordius can’t corrupt, but just wondering, what are those godforged enemies we fight in CoF? They do look as if they are corrupted in a similar way as some of those Sons of Svanir.
Isn’t Primordius the “god” of the flame legion, and this making godforged similar to corrupted?

godforged example: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Godforged_Hellstorm

To avoid going off topic too much, I found 2 or three groups of 2 flame legion enemies in the mines of Moledavia. I think they are related to the story. Also, although a bit ‘meta-game’ there was a large piece of “broken” map near the most western entrance to Moledavia. I don’t know if it was there before, but it might indicate that maybe in a future update something will change or be added there?

Plunder.8195:

You say that Primordius can’t corrupt, but just wondering, what are those godforged enemies we fight in CoF?

The Flame Legion believes (or used to believe) in the Titans, they were beings of great power created by Abaddon, the predecessor of Kormir. The Titan that the Flame Legion shamen found were actually looking similar to Destroyers, with a molten-lava looking appearance, that’s why the Flame Legion believes in “Flame” and likes to play so much with Fire.

Actually, since they are called Flame Legion, they probably already had a familiarity with fire even before they found the burning Titans, but anyway.

There is absolutely no relation between Primordus and the Flame Legion, in fact, 250 years ago, when the Great Destroyer awakened, the Flame Legion tried to make the Destroyers their new gods, they offered sacrificies and offerings, but the Destroyers turned on them, making it clear that Primordus does not want followers of any kind.

Take note that back then Primordus was still asleep, and his minions were being controlled by the Great Destroyer, a champion of the said dragon. We don’t really know how Primordus thinks about anything, though he does seem to be hostile towards anything with a society and seems to only corrupt beasts (or to create mockeries of beasts, but I’m convinced that they are corrupted underground beasts.).

Plunder.8195:

You say that Primordius can’t corrupt, but just wondering, what are those godforged enemies we fight in CoF? They do look as if they are corrupted in a similar way as some of those Sons of Svanir.
Isn’t Primordius the “god” of the flame legion, and this making godforged similar to corrupted?

The Godforged are made that way via self-mutilating rituals. Their (current) god is Gaheron Baelfire – their Imperator – not Primordus. They did once worship destroyers (not Primordus) during Eye of the North, but quickly gave that up when the destroyers tried to kill them – and according to Anet “they learned their lesson” which is why they’re trying to make a god (and failed).

And it’s not “can’t” but “doesn’t” – there’s a HUGE difference.

Plunder.8195:

To avoid going off topic too much, I found 2 or three groups of 2 flame legion enemies in the mines of Moledavia. I think they are related to the story. Also, although a bit ‘meta-game’ there was a large piece of “broken” map near the most western entrance to Moledavia. I don’t know if it was there before, but it might indicate that maybe in a future update something will change or be added there?

Tuomir.1830:

Take note that back then Primordus was still asleep, and his minions were being controlled by the Great Destroyer, a champion of the said dragon. We don’t really know how Primordus thinks about anything, though he does seem to be hostile towards anything with a society and seems to only corrupt beasts (or to create mockeries of beasts, but I’m convinced that they are corrupted underground beasts.).

Except that harpies aren’t underground creatures and we’ve been explicitly told that Primordus has not yet been seen corrupting living creatures – only creating mockeries. The skritt storyline is the first possible corrupted living creature – though evidence points to it not being so.

Furthermore, we were told that the Great Destroyer’s job was to wipe out all life to herald Primordus’ coming. An Elder Dragon who’d corrupt living beings wouldn’t want to wipe them all out, but corrupt them too. Plus, we’ve never once seen living beings corrupted – instead we’ve seen (in Eye of the North and Edge of Destiny), destroyers forming from pools of lava.

Still, based on how in The hatchery (yes, I do like to refer to that storyline mission, I find it’s a key in-game encounter with the destroyers) the characters are not surprised at all of the chance that the Destroyer Queen would have been corrupted instead of created, but are surprised of it laying eggs I find it probable that it is normal for Primordus to corrupt minions instead of creating them. However, this could be just a case of the orders (and the player) having more information about the minions of Jormag, Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan, which are not created, and thinking Primordus would do the same. That would be an explanation to the dialogue of the mission to the fullest, don’t you think? But then again, Destroyers were encountered the first, 250 years ago, and by the Asura, no less. It would make sense for them to have studied their greatest enemy at the time, so the knowledge should exist of the origin of the destroyers. And yes, I’m aware of the destroyers spawning from lava pools in GW1, I did those missions, but I can see a possibility of a retcon there.

Actually, yes, they are surprised. It’s also outright stated by Forgal for Vigil members that Primordus has never been reported to corrupt living creatures prior to that moment, and even then he (and Tybalt and Seiran as well) are not sure if it’s a corrupted creature or a new creation.

Though any lack of “ohhh!” for surprise would likely due to how all other known Elder Dragons (to the PC/orders at that point) can and do corrupt organic beings.

And if there’s a retcon, it’s a retcon to Edge of Destiny too. However, I don’t see such a retcon, given my points above – particularly Forgal’s line about how that if the Destroyer Queen was a corrupted living crab, then it’s be Primordus “learning new tricks.”

Though I once more digress that a crab cannot lay an egg that spawns a troll – and there are destroyer eggs which spawn Destroyer Trolls as well as Destroyer Crab Hatchlings and even Destroyer Crabs. If you can point out a case to me where a crab is born fully grown, let alone where a crab gives birth to a troll, then maybe it is indeed possible.

The issue you’re having, Tuomir, is that you’re not looking at the full picture.

If there is a battle of Malingrad or a battle of Mursk I will laugh so hard

Can you tell me a case where a man grows a dragonhead and wings? Corruption, corruption.

Could you cite me the line where Forgal states expressly that Primordus hasn’t been reported corrupting living beings? Also, nowhere in the dialogue is it implied that the Destroyer Queen could possibly have been created. The line stating “it might be a new kind of minion” would mean it’s a corrupted minion that has started breeding after being corrupted.

None of the minions of Zhaitan are created, yet there are numerous types of minions, some differ by the base of corruption, some by how extensive the corruption is, some by special tasks the kind of minion was created through corrupting a corpse. Just because it’s said to be possibly a new kind of minion doesn’t necessarily mean it was possibly created from lava.

Forgal’s notion on learning new tricks would simply refer to corrupting a creature that was pregnant at the time of corruption, or in the other case, corrupting a creature so that it can lay eggs (from which hatch full grown crabs and even trolls, yes).

Ah, I was wrong I see.
I didn’t play EotN, only saw all cut scenes on youtube. I was under the impression that the ‘normal’ charr stopped with their titan/destroyer admiration, but not the flame legion. Or that at least the source of their ‘fire-magic’ lied with Primordius.

I have been defending the story of this game since launch, but when I saw the Dredge and Flame Legion behind Fire and Ice I said, “Who cares….?”

Torvarren.6295:

I have been defending the story of this game since launch, but when I saw the Dredge and Flame Legion behind Fire and Ice I said, “Who cares….?”

To be honest my reaction was more like:

“. . . what? Why? Nevermind, beat them back THEN question it.”

The dredge have always registered as more annoyance than threat in my head, probably due to time spent in Ferndale. The Flame Legion, on the other hand, will always register as something to be stomped down quickly before they get enough momentum behind them to do anything big.

Last time they did something big, Ascalon burned.

Tuomir.1830:

Can you tell me a case where a man grows a dragonhead and wings? Corruption, corruption.

Could you cite me the line where Forgal states expressly that Primordus hasn’t been reported corrupting living beings? Also, nowhere in the dialogue is it implied that the Destroyer Queen could possibly have been created. The line stating “it might be a new kind of minion” would mean it’s a corrupted minion that has started breeding after being corrupted.

None of the minions of Zhaitan are created, yet there are numerous types of minions, some differ by the base of corruption, some by how extensive the corruption is, some by special tasks the kind of minion was created through corrupting a corpse. Just because it’s said to be possibly a new kind of minion doesn’t necessarily mean it was possibly created from lava.

Forgal’s notion on learning new tricks would simply refer to corrupting a creature that was pregnant at the time of corruption, or in the other case, corrupting a creature so that it can lay eggs (from which hatch full grown crabs and even trolls, yes).

Though I don’t see what a man having a draconic head and wings has to do with the Destroyer Queen… Risen Knights.

For what Forgal says, it’s when you talk to Forgal at the end of Rat-tastrophy.

You ask: “What do you know about destroyers?”

Forgal says: "They’re the minions of the Elder Dragon Primordus. Primordus usually animates stone into living, breathing nightmares, but these “eggs” tell me it may be learning new tricks."

And how do you get “breeding after its corrupted” when Primordus corrupting new beings is brand new to all known knowledge? By now, it seems like you’re just spouting what you want to spout without even looking into it.

You know what? I don’t care if you respond, because it’s obvious that you won’t be convinced because you’re refusing to look at more than just your determined view on the matter, ignoring all other facts around you and saying “yes it is possible!” for something that makes no sense at all. Like crabs giving birth to trolls.

Do not misjudge me, as ashamed as I am to admit it, I forgot that one line and didn’t find it after looking into it again. Oh, and by referring to risen knights, I simply meant that the dragons corruption may give the host attributes and capabilities far from the original. Following that logic, were the Destroyer Queen a corrupted being, the corruption could have caused it to lay eggs that hatch even trolls.

However, as I said, I had forgotten about that line of Forgal’s, which frankly ruins the basis of my whole argument. Indeed, I have been wrong.

On that mentality about the Risen Knights, you should get a closer look – because it seems like they’re made with said appearance the same way the Risen Abominations are. That “draconic head” looks more like a helmet/hood of flesh – probably sewn on.

Plunder.8195:

Ah, I was wrong I see.
I didn’t play EotN, only saw all cut scenes on youtube. I was under the impression that the ‘normal’ charr stopped with their titan/destroyer admiration, but not the flame legion. Or that at least the source of their ‘fire-magic’ lied with Primordius.

When you get down to it, the shamans didn’t actually worship the destroyers either – they offered them as a substitute to titans for others to worship. One of the shamans in EOTN responds to a character pointing out that the destroyers are not gods with “You think we care? What matters is that OTHERS think they are.”

Mind you, with the pact having taken down Zhaitan, it’s possible that that’s shaken up the thinking of everyone who might have a reason to think they might be in the Pact’s sights – and that includes Primordus as well as the Flame Legion and the moletariat.

I can’t see Primo playing a main role in this story. I hoped for it before, but it doesn’t look like it. I can’t see Primo taking living minions for his army. Perhaps as single champions which then better understand their enemies, but even that’s just a dream.
From the title i get the feeling, Jormag still messes up something in the background. It’s more like his controll over the sos but then again i don’t know how to place the nemesis.

One thing I noticed today, as I was completing the lost and found achieve, and obtaining the last two items, is that the refugees gvie dif dialogue afterwards. I went back and talked to all the refugees. Refugee Kirk, the norn, said he planned on moving to southsun cove with some of his own. I think thats kinda cool, it could turn into a new storyline in southsun cove. One of the new refugees that appeared today, refugee fivel is his name I think, said he plans on regathering a force and planning his next move. I think against the flame/dredge force. There are 7 npcs, each with interesting stories, and I really hope, probably hoping too much, that these individual storylines play out.

In my mind, the dredge and the flame legion alliance is an alliance that I would have never thought of, but it also makes loads of sense. From what we know the alliance doesn’t have to be the full force of either side, it is most likely that it is the dredge moletariat losing the battle, and perhaps one of the known splinter groups of the flame legion looking for assistance (rather than all of the flame legion).