Guild Wars 2

What would you have done in his position?

For me….Well I’d have probably been destroyed by the pressure of decision…
Don’t tell me to man up! xD Got some serious problems with pressure

I would do the same thing, don’t forget his borther was there aswell

I for one would have NOT left my friends to fight the nightmare god-beast on their own while I go off chasing some skirt. Even if it is a fairly attractive royal skirt.

its his whole bloodline that need to stop spawning.
the whole Thackeray bloodline needs to go away but with out them we won’t have anyone to mess things up and we would need to start using Skritts as escape goats.

but he is a ancestor of GWEN!!!

wouw.5837:

but he is a ancestor of GWEN!!!

except for Gwen.

He did what needed to be done. Destiny’s Edge should have changed their strategy or give up. Without Jennah, there wouldn’t have been any truce, to start with, so she was pretty important. Without her, humans and charr wouldn’t be working together against the dragons, for example. Who knows what could have happened with someone like Caudecus wearing the royal crown.

I don’t see why Jennah is so integral. Kryta’s government could continue fine with the Legate Minister as the head of government in the event of the monarch’s death, so there’s really no reason to prioritize Jennah’s life over the life of literally everyone else in Tyria.

I believe jennah handled herself quite well.

More to the point, she panicked, he made a bad call. They lost two precious allies and destroyed an even more powerful weapon , Destiny Edge.

Their warband/guild gave Tyria hope , something that had been lacking for a long time. People were rallying to fight the dragons behind Destiny Edge.

Now its up to us to give hope to tyria.

In a gameplay perspective, it HAD to happen.
Also, i think the book feeling semi rushed on thr whole romance between logan and jennah, doesnt help his image. Even anet admitted that we should see their relationship as something powerful and reaching for Romeo/juliet. Not that " OMFG I Want her! Omfg she gave me her snot tissue!!!!" that we end up reading in the book.

On a personal level? If there ever is a Chance to murder logan in game, i would, in a heartbeat.

That sentence from rytlock during The fight When logan is about to leave, says it all.

I feel like if he would have defeated the Shatterer in time, the revolt may have ceased, or at least slowed down to get their bearings after seeing the dragon fall.
As much as I would be afraid to fight any dragon, even just a champion, I’d have to stick with my friends.

Omacron.4690:

I don’t see why Jennah is so integral. Kryta’s government could continue fine with the Legate Minister as the head of government in the event of the monarch’s death, so there’s really no reason to prioritize Jennah’s life over the life of literally everyone else in Tyria.

Except he (very probably) hates charr, which would make the truce impossible.

Play the Caudecus’s Manor dungeon, it’s pretty obvious who’s behind all of it.

Seriously, Caudecus in charge would be pretty awful for some things. We must consider the White Mantle is around, too, and which are the real goals of the mursaat.

Lonami.2987:

Omacron.4690:

I don’t see why Jennah is so integral. Kryta’s government could continue fine with the Legate Minister as the head of government in the event of the monarch’s death, so there’s really no reason to prioritize Jennah’s life over the life of literally everyone else in Tyria.

Except he (very probably) hates charr, which would make the truce impossible.

Play the Caudecus’s Manor dungeon, it’s pretty obvious who’s behind all of it.

Seriously, Caudecus in charge would be pretty awful for some things. We must consider the White Mantle is around, too, and which are the real goals of the mursaat.

A) Do we necessarily know if Caudecus was Legate Minister at the time?
B) Doesn’t the Ministry assist Jennah in public policy? By that point in the story you’d think the treaty would have been run through and ratified by the Ministry

Has nobody here heard the mesmer mind control theory? :O There is one! It goes: Logan didn’t care much about royalty et cetera until he met Queen Jennah face to face. His own brother asks if she mesmer-whammies him and she says no, but she did. So Logan’s choice wasn’t so much a choice as it was, well, a result of being mind-whammied.

Siadea.3950:

Has nobody here heard the mesmer mind control theory? :O There is one! It goes: Logan didn’t care much about royalty et cetera until he met Queen Jennah face to face. His own brother asks if she mesmer-whammies him and she says no, but she did. So Logan’s choice wasn’t so much a choice as it was, well, a result of being mind-whammied.

Yes, I have thought about this aswell.

Honestly, it’s the only thing that would turn me from a Logan MUST die into a Logan has a chance to redeem himself.

Anything less, off with his head

I’m kinda thinking it could be a mesmer mind control thing as well. I mean the lady was able to send him messages straight into his head, which means she could have been playing around in there all Emma Frost like.

Omacron.4690:

Lonami.2987:

Omacron.4690:

I don’t see why Jennah is so integral. Kryta’s government could continue fine with the Legate Minister as the head of government in the event of the monarch’s death, so there’s really no reason to prioritize Jennah’s life over the life of literally everyone else in Tyria.

Except he (very probably) hates charr, which would make the truce impossible.

Play the Caudecus’s Manor dungeon, it’s pretty obvious who’s behind all of it.

Seriously, Caudecus in charge would be pretty awful for some things. We must consider the White Mantle is around, too, and which are the real goals of the mursaat.

A) Do we necessarily know if Caudecus was Legate Minister at the time?
B) Doesn’t the Ministry assist Jennah in public policy? By that point in the story you’d think the treaty would have been run through and ratified by the Ministry

Im not aware how long Caudecus has been Legate Minister but I get the impression he isnt new to the job.

As for the treaty, it was Jennah that caused it to happen AFTER the events at Ebonhawke that caused the breakup of Destiny’s Edge. She was one of the key individuals pushing for it, at least probably in part cause she got a glimpse of what the elder dragons were really like.

Note that before this no one was talking about a treaty. It took a hell of alot of work, a rather risky artifact recovery (Ghosts of Ascalon) and the right people in charge of both nations for the treaty even to see the light of day. On top of that, technically its only a treaty with the Iron Legion though the other two legions have to adhere to it while in Iron Legion territory or while representing the Iron Legion.

Its worth pointing out that there much of the plot to the first 20 levels of the human story is unresolved and points strongly towards a major consperacy with Caudecus at the top.

The impact of Jennah’s death would have probably been pretty severe to Kryta. It also would have likely meant the Charr and the Humans would still be at war.

Siadea.3950:

Has nobody here heard the mesmer mind control theory? :O There is one! It goes: Logan didn’t care much about royalty et cetera until he met Queen Jennah face to face. His own brother asks if she mesmer-whammies him and she says no, but she did. So Logan’s choice wasn’t so much a choice as it was, well, a result of being mind-whammied.

Ree Soesbee pretty much shot this down in an interview. She said that Logan and Jennah’s love was real and their was no mind control involved. The spell she did cast on Logan that bonded him to her Logan accepted willingly and it allowed her to call out to Logan when she was in danger.

Also if you look at her in game she spends alot of her dialog trying to convince Logan to go out and protect the world instead of just her.

Logan’s choice was basicly what it was on the surface, a choice between letting the woman he loved die or letting a freind die. The guilt of that is one of the big pieces of Logan’s story in GW2.

Not sure is Logan and Jennah love is real but I probably would have done the same thing.

Also, technically he did make an unbreakable oath to come to Jennah’s aid if she calls unlike Destiny’s Edge where he’s just there for the ride. of dragon slaughtering.

Jennah may have survived Ebonhawke regardless of Logan but I doubt the Charr and Human alliance would happen as Logan were the one who presented the Charr prisoners with Rytlock medallion thing. (vague on this part so correct me if im wrong)

Arcturus.5846:

Not sure is Logan and Jennah love is real but I probably would have done the same thing.

Also, technically he did make an unbreakable oath to come to Jennah’s aid if she calls unlike Destiny’s Edge where he’s just there for the ride. of dragon slaughtering.

Jennah may have survived Ebonhawke regardless of Logan but I doubt the Charr and Human alliance would happen as Logan were the one who presented the Charr prisoners with Rytlock medallion thing. (vague on this part so correct me if im wrong)

The Logan/Jennah love thing was pretty poorly handled in the book but it was real. That was confirmed by Ree Soesbee.

My opinion on the matter is similar to that of my Lord and Ruler, Rytlock the Bad Mofo Brimstone.

I think it basically boils down to what a totally stupid move Jennah made in the first place. Rather than retreating to the Asura gates, she goes to the keep. WHY? Why not put yourself hundreds of miles away instead of behind a few stones? If she’d just left, Logan could have stayed, and we’d be sans one Elder Dragon.

Thanks a lot, your Royal Butterfingers.

Proximity.5186:

I think it basically boils down to what a totally stupid move Jennah made in the first place. Rather than retreating to the Asura gates, she goes to the keep. WHY? Why not put yourself hundreds of miles away instead of behind a few stones? If she’d just left, Logan could have stayed, and we’d be sans one Elder Dragon.

Thanks a lot, your Royal Butterfingers.

Thats a good point….. Though to Jennah’s credit she does say in her written dialog in the personal story that she was foolish and selfish putting so many burden’s on Logan’s shoulders so there was no way for him to be able to manage them all. Of course he did accept all those burdens too. Thats why Jennah keeps trying to push Logan off into the world. To quote her, she needs him to be her partner, not her servant.

viciousfreak.2076:

What would you have done in his position?

For me….Well I’d have probably been destroyed by the pressure of decision…
Don’t tell me to man up! xD Got some serious problems with pressure

There are many beautiful girls in the world…….he made a mistake.

its not a mesmer mind control thing the question was asked in an interview and jeff grubb said its not

He pretty much made humanity step back 10 feet.

Even tough we all know he loves the Queen and vice-versa, they were about to destroy an Elder Dragon!

The proof that humanity (including all races) needed to finally come together and end the Dragon threat forever.

He failed his team objective and worst, many lost their lifes for nothing (Glint, Snaff).

The Queen saved herself and never needed him at all.

Logically, he made a poor decision. The death of an elder dragon is worth more than the life of a queen. Its not like Jennah needed him anyways.

Kazma.4658:

Bro’s before ho’s, man.

Word!

HERO.2057:

He pretty much made humanity step back 10 feet.

Even tough we all know he loves the Queen and vice-versa, they were about to destroy an Elder Dragon!

The proof that humanity (including all races) needed to finally come together and end the Dragon threat forever.

He failed his team objective and worst, many lost their lifes for nothing (Glint, Snaff).

The Queen saved herself and never needed him at all.

Id argue this point. If Jennah would have been able to save herself without him then why did she take so long to do it? Its more likely the spell that she cast took time to do or that she was stunned from touching Kralkatorik’s mind. Either way, Logan bought her the time she needed to recover and cast that spell that saved them.

The question of weither Jennah was worth it or not is a different question. To Logan it appears she was.

Also Im not convinced that Destiny’s Edge killing Kralkatorik would have had much positive effect politically. The charr and humans would still have been at war and probably the treaty would have been less likely if Jennah was dead. Furthermore it could have even lead the races to underestimate the challange the Elder Dragons posed. Kralkatorik’s death would have been far from anyone notable seeing it.

captaincrash.6528:

its not a mesmer mind control thing the question was asked in an interview and jeff grubb said its not

Source?

HERO.2057:

He pretty much made humanity step back 10 feet.

Even tough we all know he loves the Queen and vice-versa, they were about to destroy an Elder Dragon!

The proof that humanity (including all races) needed to finally come together and end the Dragon threat forever.

He failed his team objective and worst, many lost their lifes for nothing (Glint, Snaff).

The Queen saved herself and never needed him at all.

I totally agree. Logan’s decision made me cry of rage <<
Kralkatorrik’s death would be a great victory for all races, but he preferred to run away for a woman (’cause yes, anyone has read the book knows that he decided to leave his friends for a WOMAN, not for a QUEEN <<"). Now Tyria is still threatened by an Elder Dragon and many people have died and are dying because of that stupid decision.

Also, Snaff was my favorite character. So I hate Logan even more. u_u

I’m actually very disappointed that the ‘mesmer control theory’ has been shot down already. Jennah bores me to tears, simply because she exists as a trope that has been done to death already. She’s the beautiful peace activist who can do no wrong, the people typically love her (and those that do not tend to be painted as bad guys) and one of the major male human characters almost instantly falls for her.

I’m not against strong female characters, but now Logan will forever be tarnished and viewed as a jerk for abandoning his friends even long after Destiny’s Edge sort out their inner conflicts. Either way, human players are forced to endure a pair of smitten lovers as their representatives whilst the other races seem to get a bit more leg room and less of a cliché experience.

To me, Jennah just feels like a plot device. She basically exists as a throwback to Salma and to drive the peace negotiations forward. All at the cost of an alarmingly high portion of players hero worshipping Rytlock and bashing Logan. It’s not a terrible plot line, but it could have used a bit more work.

I would have stayed and helped the Edge.
Snaff wouldn’t have died, the guild would still be alive, Rytlock and I would have helped the Orders find that Claw of the Khan-Ur and beat down Riona for even thinking of trying what she did.

Granted the peace would be shaky but truce talks could be made. Then the Dragons hit and thus more conflict.

However this is all wishful thinking on my part

Odoakar.4759:

Logically, he made a poor decision. The death of an elder dragon is worth more than the life of a queen. Its not like Jennah needed him anyways.

Not so. The queen is instrumental in brokering the truce between humans and charr, and this fact alone qualifies her existence as the ruler of Kryta and pretty much all of the human race. That, plus her popularity and ancestry makes her a more fitting ruler than Caudecus many times over.

Actually I think Logan’s desicion is probably the single shining point to the plot of Edge of Destiny. The rest of the novel reads much like an RP of the progression and drama of a raiding guild in MMORPG.

edit: One thing needs to be reassured that Logan did not had that “big picture” in mind when he decided to save his lover instead of his friends and slay an Elder Dragon. What I’m saying is that the decision has a justifiable outcome, consider the Elder Dragon isn’t that hard to kill after all.

It wasn’t a decision at all. In the book, Jennah enchants him with a bond that essentially forced him to come to her aid.

Lorati.7361:

captaincrash.6528:

its not a mesmer mind control thing the question was asked in an interview and jeff grubb said its not

Source?

sorry i tried looking for the video but could not find it, it was before the game was released. i guess what i said can be dismissed but im positive im not talking out of mykittenimg src="/include/images/smilies/wink.png" />

Lorati.7361:

captaincrash.6528:

its not a mesmer mind control thing the question was asked in an interview and jeff grubb said its not

Source?

Im pretty sure it was one of the gaming conventions Q&As. There has been a few of them.

ParaldaWind.4523:

It wasn’t a decision at all. In the book, Jennah enchants him with a bond that essentially forced him to come to her aid.

The bond made him aware that she was in mortal danger. It allowed her to call out to him. Id again point out that he willingly let her put that bond on him.

Much of Logan’s story in GW2 is him struggling with the guilt of the choice he made. Not guilt that he made the wrong choice but guilt that there was no way for him to save both of them. The fact he chose to leave at let a freind die eats at him and makes him both really defensive and overly protective of Jennah. If you do the ‘Light in the Darkness’ personal story event pay attention to what Logan says.

The whole point of Logan’s issue is he personally had no good options. Regardless what he did it was going to end disasterously for him.

Oh man, that theory was shot down? That sucks. That seriously sucks. Still, Jennah KNEW they were going out to kill an Elder Dragon, but still chose to ask for help? I’m afraid she just doesn’t come off very well either way.

Without a heir, any monarchist goverment risk civil war. All nobles want the crown after all and will conspire to get it. A King without a heir is in an extremly vulnerable position because any potential conspirators wouldn’t need to factor the princess, thus reducing any coup to a single assassination.

Logan swore an oath to the Queen. He swore no oath to Destiny’s edge.

He was stuck making a choice with seemingly two bad options, Logan didn’t know how bad things were at Ebnhawk, all he knew is the Queen was in mortal danger. At that moment his friends were not in mortal danger. Eir could have called the engagement off and given Logan time to save the queen. But She decided to push on without him.

I don’t think there was a “right” choice for Logan (hindsight bieng what it is) but he mae the choice I would have made. But don’t forget Eir’s fault as well. She knew Logan left.

I actually think it’s a pretty good allegory for a RL guild. What do you do when one of yoru members drops from the Dungeon a minute before it starts because his wife tells needs him to. Is it his fault the team wipes?

The queen is rich and sexy… i couldn’t blame him. :L
However in all honesty , the choice between an entire nations safety and the woman of your dreams is so tough that he probably would have killed himself thinking.
Even though the moral choice would have been to save the masses… or at least try…

I played some initial GW2 without reading any of the books or any wiki pages about the recent lore.
Started out hating Rythlock and supporting Logan…

Then I read the books.

Logan failed his friends, his guild and his people.
The safety of one (stereotypical) queen does not compare to the price of letting an Elder dragon survive and the lives of both Snaff and Glint.

Personally I don’t know what I’d have done, sitting in my chair thinking about it I would have defended Snaff and rid the world of a dragon.
But love can be a pretty strong emotion, at least in stories, even if poorly handled.
He realizes it now tough but hindsight doesn’t exactly help you after the deed.

Logan dropped the ball big time and Snaff paid the price, Rythlock has more then enough reasons to be mad at him and the world has to continue living in the fear of Kralkatorrik.

Let me give you an example for the people who think Logan is a “jerk”:

- An average human can try to bear his own hunger to share food with a starving man.

- The same human will NOT let his child bear the hunger to give that food to another starving man.

I ask you, if you are that human, weighing between giving the food to your starving child and giving the food to a starving man, give me a straight answer. All the other so call “reasoning” are nothing but bystanders meaningless opnion. Logan had to make the decision under the heat of the moment, there was not a time netiher the place for all the “reason” stated here. For example, in some state according to the law, you are not allow to shoot someone from the back, even if they’re trespassing. And while many people might idlely argue the fine point of the law in a court room, I can tell you this: if I see a stranger in my house, putting my family at risk and I have a gun, as soon as I can get a firing line I will shoot regardless that stranger is facing toward or away from me.

Logan can and will give up his own life to protect anyone in Destiny Edge (in fact he did just that in Arah story in GW2), but he will not let Jennah die for Destiny edge. His made up with Rytlook in Citidel of Flame sum it up, basically Logan regret what he did, but he did not believe he made the wrong choice, and if put into the same situation he will make the same decision. The only difference is that he will own up and live with it instead of trying to hide behind an excuse.

Siadea.3950:

Oh man, that theory was shot down? That sucks. That seriously sucks. Still, Jennah KNEW they were going out to kill an Elder Dragon, but still chose to ask for help? I’m afraid she just doesn’t come off very well either way.

Actually, what she knew was that they had gone out to fight Glint to stop her from waking her master. Jennah didnt know Glint had betrayed her master. The very fact that Kralkatorik was up and around would have suggested to her that they had already failed.

Jennah does however agree that it was selfish of her to expect Logan to play protector of her and go out and be a hero at the same time. She says as much in one of the human personal stories. Thats also why she pushes Logan to leave at the end of CM story mode.

ajm.2931:

Logan swore an oath to the Queen. He swore no oath to Destiny’s edge.

^This^

This is all that matters.

Logan gave his word to protect the queen. He had to go to her on his honor. He made the only choice an honorable man could make.

Lutinz.6915:

The Logan/Jennah love thing was pretty poorly handled in the book but it was real. That was confirmed by Ree Soesbee.

Their love could be totally real, and there still be a level of compulsion to the ‘come help me, I need you!’ spell- even if it wasn’t intentional. Given how Logan is presented, it seems really out of character for him to be on this quest, where it has been pounded into all their heads that they will fail miserably if they aren’t all there, and suddenly go racing back to his lady love.

If this is really what happened, I’m surprised he doesn’t get more flak for it from people outside of the team.

Proximity.5186:

I think it basically boils down to what a totally stupid move Jennah made in the first place. Rather than retreating to the Asura gates, she goes to the keep. WHY? Why not put yourself hundreds of miles away instead of behind a few stones? If she’d just left, Logan could have stayed, and we’d be sans one Elder Dragon.

Thanks a lot, your Royal Butterfingers.

Because the same bolt that smashed the walls also knocked the recently-repaired gate back out of commission. It’s easy to miss because it’s given in one sentence and never referred to again, but it’s there.

Arguably, she could have gone through the gate the moment danger threatened (although I think lorewise they take a little bit of time to tune and open rather than being a push-button device) but at that point she probably thought it was better to stay for a) morale reasons and b) to see if there was anything she could do to help. (And, on that matter, it’s pretty clear that if she had left, there would be no Ebonhawke. We know now that dragon minions don’t simply shut down when the dragon dies, so DE killing Kralkatorrik in the Crystal Desert wouldn’t have saved anyone in Ebonhawke.)

The problem was not Logan. It was Eir, Snaff and Zojja. Put down your pitchforks for a second, and allow me to elaborate.

Clearly, had Logan not left, Destiny’s Edge would have succeeded. It would’ve bought just enough time for Rytlock to kill Kralkatorrik, but, because Logan had left, Caithe was unable to hold her entrance alone, and Snaff died. Here’s where my issue lies… why the hell were there still three entrances?

They have Snaff, genius, Zojja, genius-in-training, and Eir, master tactician, and no one thinks to say, “Man, guarding three entrances with 6 people is hard, maybe we should get Glint to collapse one or two of them.” I mean, really, it’s Glint’s sanctuary. She built it, and presumably, she could have either closed two of the entrances, or collapsed them.

Glint was about the size of the Shatterer, clearly big enough and strong enough to do this. Hell, Big Zojja or Snaff could’ve probably done it instead of digging three giant trenches. Zojja alone was able to hold one of the three entrances, so wouldn’t it have been infinitely better to have all four of them guarding one entrance?

That’s not even the whole problem, either. Why didn’t Eir ask Logan what he was doing, instead of screaming, “Snaff! Don’t let him do this thing that he may or may not be magically compelled to do!” Obviously, it panicked him, and caused him to act impulsively. If they’d just stopped and talked to each other like adults for 10 seconds, they might’ve been able to come up with a compromise, or even a better plan.

For one, why did Destiny’s Edge (other than maybe Rytlock) need to be that close to Kralkatorrik anyways? Couldn’t Snaff have gone through the portal with Logan, safely miles away from danger? It just doesn’t seem like a master plan to me to just say “Eh, guard the doors.”

TL;DR – The plan was bad and would’ve been abysmally simple to correct. Snaff died because of Eir and Zojja’s own ignorance. Logan had very little to do with it.

ParaldaWind.4523:

Snaff died because of Eir and Zojja’s own ignorance. Logan had very little to do with it.

No, I do not agree. Glint had a job to do and she died for that. Everyone had a job, a role in that situation. Destiny’s Edge have always been forced to have clearly defined roles because of their limited number.
Logan was supposed to be the defence specialist, and is not logistically possible that the lack of a so important piece has not compromised the work of all yhe others.
This is the main problem of a small, organized group: Missing piece = 90% risk of failure.

Arciel.9650:

His made up with Rytlook in Citidel of Flame sum it up, basically Logan regret what he did, but he did not believe he made the wrong choice, and if put into the same situation he will make the same decision.

And this is why I don’t want Destiny’s Edge to get back together, if Logan leaves again it could be my Rytlock that dies x.×. For as long as that mesmer bond is on him, you can’t trust him, with your life anyway.