Guild Wars 2

Many of us have been theorizing on whether or not the Eternal Alchemy/The Dream may be one in the same. I think it is the case and just different races takes on it. Easy enough to grasp really.

My theory centers around that as a fact: The Dream and the Eternal Alchemy are one in the same even though the two races involved may see them slightly differently.

My theory is this: When the Elder Dragons are awake, the Gods sleep. There is a definite yin and yang thing going on here. Not all of the dragons were awake at the same time and most likely ArenaNet wanted to explore the dragon thing this time around and then abandon it for a year for whatever reason, but I like that the Dragons come to destroy and the Gods come back and repair it again and the cycle continues. At least I like the notion of that being the case.

[/spoiler= So if the Pale Tree was speaking with Ceara when she was in the Eternal Alchemy(like another thread suggests and I agree with) what exactly is the Pale Tree that it has a consciousness outside of Tyria? Is it just an aspect of Melandru? If Melandru is the patron god of Nature what is the Pale Tree? Does it operate outside the jurisdiction of Melandru? Is it a lieutenant of Melandru? If the PT does in fact operate outside of Melandru’s sphere of influence and the Sylvari are as natural looking as the game makes them look and outright says they are, why did Melandru allow that to happen? Doesn’t seem very godly. I tend to think that the Pale Tree is an aspect of Melandru or associated with her like a intellectual mate of some sort. Ceara met the Pale Tree in the Eternal Alchemy and also met our sleeping dragon friend and awoke it from its slumber to get it out of her head. Now we get to deal with it.[/spoiler]

[/spoilerI really hope that when we meet our new dragon friend that it’s in a wholly new permanent map. Being an explorer at heart has been pretty lackluster since my 4th character over a year ago as it pertains to the PvE player in me. There hasn’t been anything new or permanent to explore in PvE since Southsun. Hopefully that changes for the new season.[/spoiler]

The Dream is a location – like the Mists. The Eternal Alchemy is a concept – like Darwinism. Therefore, they cannot be the same thing, as one is physical (or rather, metaphysical), and the other is abstract. This is furthered pointed out by Scott McGough back in August stating that Scarlet believed she saw the Eternal Alchemy… but she might not have. http://wartower.tumblr.com/post/60458277036/this-lorespecial-is-about-scarlet-briar-the-evil This is also why Vorpp calls kitten on Scarlet’s claim to have seen the Eternal Alchemy – because it isn’t something that can be seen, as it is a concept, an idea, or more accurately, a system that envelopes all of reality – to “see the Eternal Alchemy” is to “know all things that was, is, and ever will be, and how they interact with each other, and what their each individual value in existence is”. Basically, to see the Eternal Alchemy is to witness and understand the Mists in its entirety (my interpretation). This would expand far beyond just the Dream of Dreams.

The Elder Dragons and the Gods’ nature are not related. The Elder Dragons had multiple cycles occur before the Six Gods first stepped foot on the world of Tyria. As Jeff Grubb said a long while back the gods are older than humanity but not by much – and we know that humanity… isn’t that old in the long run (they’re younger than the previous dragon rise). http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/09/02/guild-wars-2-interview/

On your “spoiler boxes” (it should start with [ spoiler ] without the spaces), given what Vorpp said Ceara never went “outside of Tyria” so the Pale Tree’s consciousness wouldn’t be “outside of Tyria” either (unless you consider the Dream outside of Tyria, which sylvari and the Pale Tree seem to, but given that the White Stag shares this attribute with the Pale Tree, it doesn’t make her on par to deities).

On “why would Melandru allow that to happen” – sadly, ArenaNet has been making it an active task of theirs to reduce the gods and their capabilities.

Thanks for the info. It’s sad we didn’t really get any legitimate lore continuity from GW1. There are pieces here and there but nothing substantial unless you really dig for it. That is all well and good, but I find most of that to be really vague as well. It’s one thing to leav it up to the imagination, it’s quite another to have gaping holes in your lore or worse: Retconning the lore after a while. It’s a very comic book-y thing to do.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

… sadly, ArenaNet has been making it an active task of theirs to reduce the gods and their capabilities.

Arenanet didn’t. A lot of NPC in Tyria are telling that they are loosing or lost their connection to their deities. Those who didn’t loose it have a weaker connection. Coincidence?

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

… sadly, ArenaNet has been making it an active task of theirs to reduce the gods and their capabilities.

Arenanet didn’t. A lot of NPC in Tyria are telling that they are loosing or lost their connection to their deities. Those who didn’t loose it have a weaker connection. Coincidence?

I wasn’t talking about NPC’s connections to the gods.

In GW1, the lore was that the gods created humanity, and worlds, magic itself, created the bloodstones, and were pretty much general kittenes.

In GW2, we find out that their biggest achievements were lies. They didn’t create humanity, they just brought them to the world; they created nothing; they strengthened magic… via Zhaitan; the seers made the Bloodstone; etc. etc.

Perhaps I over-exaggerate, but the gods HAVE been downplayed in their actions in GW1 by said actions being re-attributed to others. And this is blatantly stated by ArenaNet even, that the gods are being downsized. They basically said “we don’t know how to turn human-centric lore to being multiracial, so we’ll just make them false information.”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

This is also why Vorpp calls kitten on Scarlet’s claim to have seen the Eternal Alchemy

In the final battle she even claims to have seen BEYOND the Eternal Alchemy. What ever that means.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

“we don’t know how to turn human-centric lore to being multiracial, so we’ll just make them false information.”

Oh okay, but gods are still among the most powerful creatures in guild wars 2, while they are probably equal with some other creatures (for example norn spirits).

I’ve always imagined The Dream to work exactly like dreams in our own world, give or take a few fantastical features.

In that sense, The Dream originates from within the Pale Tree herself, and is exclusive only to Sylvari who have originated from the Pale Tree.

Similar to what Konig mentioned, I also think that the Eternal Alchemy is an abstract concept the Asura have formulated – call it their theory on the Meaning of Life, if you will.

We know it’s not exclusive to sylvari of the Pale Tree.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/White_Stag
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Waterfall

Its a shame that Arena.net has felt its necessary to remove the Six from the picture because they can’t be made to fit into other cultures. Its not like the Norn Spirits fit into other cultures, or the Eternal Alchemy does. Still, my hope is that the Gods left Tyria and became silent due to the threat that the Elder Dragons would consume -them-. They are, after all, extremely, magically powerful entities.

With a search for answers about the Scarlet story I found some interesting things. One of them are 5 suspected as gods and if so the 6th is maybe on Tyria. The fall of Abaddon is not just a random fractal for the guild wars one lore lovers. I think the gods will take part in a living story (not knowing which).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We know it’s not exclusive to sylvari of the Pale Tree.

Ah, I stand corrected, then. I’ve only played through the game on my Sylvari main, so I guess I haven’t seen it from that perspective yet.

Although, Trahearne describes The Dream as being “made of memory, aether, and powerful magic”, so I think it’s more of a metaphysical (as you mentioned) location/dimension than the Mists. Based on the Trahearne’s description, it could simply mean that The Dream, like real dreams, originates from the Pale Tree herself (i.e. The Dream is the Pale Tree’s memories, but can be accessed via portal-like projections constructed from aether; the White Stag could also be a similar projection made of pure aether; same for the waterfall skill challenge).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

In GW1, the lore was that the gods created humanity, and worlds, magic itself, created the bloodstones, and were pretty much general kittenes.

In GW2, we find out that their biggest achievements were lies. They didn’t create humanity, they just brought them to the world; they created nothing; they strengthened magic… via Zhaitan; the seers made the Bloodstone; etc. etc..

Yes, but that’s what progress is usually about. And it’s actually quite similar to developments that happened on Earth (see Age of Enlightenment). This transition is a part of the lore development that I like pretty much.

Actually, from my (polemic Asuran in-game) perspective, I always found it funny how much trust people still put into these “human gods” that put their backs on them. The way I understand it is that they are just little more than glorified-yet-powerful, magic-using beings, whose story has been over-exaggerated through the centuries by the humans. I further theorize that they fled from Tyria in such a haste because they are bat-kitten afraid of the elder dragons, and that they are not really a match for them. Think of it, as such powerful magical beings, you must look pretty yummy to beings that devour magic. Just look at what Jormag has done to poor Owl.

However, what really bugs me (from my outside observer perspective) is that so many times people are arguing about lore using arguments like “no, you are wrong, we already know X because Y said so” or “this cannot be since it was written in text Z…” This is potentially fallible argumentation, and people should just stop doing this. When you study history or lore, you have to question every of your sources. They might be mistaken, they might be lying. They are influenced by the mindset of their epoch and their culture. And they are always just reporting it how they remember it, not how it has happened. The best you can get from these sources are more or less reliable hints or indicators in one or another direction, but you can never be sure, and cannot take them as facts. (Maybe the only thing that I understand as to be taken for granted is what the player character experiences first-hand. But even then, in this fictional environment, it might be an illusion, influence of drugs, a Quaggan conspiracy, or whatever.)

tl;dr: I wish people would show a little bit more of a critical distance to lore reporting sources when they are theorizing in this game.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

They basically said “we don’t know how to turn human-centric lore to being multiracial, so we’ll just make them false information.”

From a technical (game development) standpoint you might be right, but such situations are quite frequent in fictional writing. At least, we didn’t have our Rurik in the the shower moment yet (and I don’t assume we will), and the developed lore is still largely within the boundaries set by GW1.

~MRA

Heraldusluminare.2946:

Although, Trahearne describes The Dream as being “made of memory, aether, and powerful magic”, so I think it’s more of a metaphysical (as you mentioned) location/dimension than the Mists.

One can argue that’s a proper description for the Mists, as it too is a metaphysical location that copies memories (rather, past events), though instead of aether it’d be protomatter.

MRA.4758:

Yes, but that’s what progress is usually about. And it’s actually quite similar to developments that happened on Earth (see Age of Enlightenment). This transition is a part of the lore development that I like pretty much.

But there’s a huge difference to be made here:

Humanity in Tyria actually interacted with their gods. And recorded it even at those times, having long had a writing system in place by those times.

MRA.4758:

However, what really bugs me (from my outside observer perspective) is that so many times people are arguing about lore using arguments like “no, you are wrong, we already know X because Y said so” or “this cannot be since it was written in text Z…” This is potentially fallible argumentation, and people should just stop doing this. When you study history or lore, you have to question every of your sources. They might be mistaken, they might be lying. They are influenced by the mindset of their epoch and their culture. And they are always just reporting it how they remember it, not how it has happened. The best you can get from these sources are more or less reliable hints or indicators in one or another direction, but you can never be sure, and cannot take them as facts. (Maybe the only thing that I understand as to be taken for granted is what the player character experiences first-hand. But even then, in this fictional environment, it might be an illusion, influence of drugs, a Quaggan conspiracy, or whatever.)

I think you greatly misunderstand the arguments.

The argument that you’re seeing is not “this NPC says it, therefore it must be true” but rather “only this NPC talks about it, so until we have something to argue otherwise, it should be taken as truth.”

The thing is, you’re right in that every source could be wrong – though ArenaNet has a point of never altering what we saw first hand since our characters would be knowledgeable enough (being these grand god or Elder Dragon slaying heroes) to see that something or another is an illusion. But the issue is… if we question one source that is not even hinted to be contradicted by something else, then we can argue nothing is solid. By which point, we would have no lore, and we might as well be explaining how it’s possible for the giant shining sun in the sky to actually be the illegitimate butt-child of the homosexual relationship between Grenth and Koda.

So we HAVE to take what’s unhinted to be contradicted as “fact until otherwise disproven” otherwise we would have no basis for lore, theorycrafting, or anything.

The Elder Dragons are flees on a dog’s back, the dog’s name is Tyria!
The Six Gods are all scientists that came from the planet Earth!
Zojja is the lovechild of Eir and Rytlock!

Etc.

Exaggerated statements, but by your argument of questioning all sources, because they “might be wrong” then we’d get things like that.

So Thruln the Lost is right in what he says?

In regards to his statements on the gods, magic being taken, fall of jotun society, and humanity’s upbringing?

No. His words contradict both older and newer lore. There may be some truth to his words, but his words are the only source for that side and contradicted by dozens others.

The only possible truth he holds is the history of the norn, the chaotic nature of magic during the previous rise, and the Age of Giants. But even that’s flimsy at best given he’s contradicted on half the other things – even by his ancestor Elder Thruln who gives a different tale to the jotun’s fall (a tale that matches the Priory’s mentions in Dredgehaunt as well as the old lore blog post on jotun).

This is exactly what I meant by “the case until argued otherwise” – but with it being 1 against dozens (even NPC’s first-hand accounting), the “argued otherwise” part fails in this case. If I would argue Thruln to be right, my argument would be “whatever’s newest is the case” – which there are folks who argue that, sadly.

A better example of what I meant by that would be sylvari corruption – we were originally told sylvari are immune to dragon corruption with specific mentions of it being impossible for sylvari to become risen and branded; Scarlet provides a counter-argument to the general-ness of the statement, and opens doors for “there’s something that can be removed which prevents corruption.”