Konig Des Todes.2086

The problem here is that you’re proclaiming all Elder Dragons are the same in their desire to corrupt, but we’re explicitly told that isn’t the case.

Prime example being Jormag: while he does corrupt, he has a preference to only corrupt those who willingly ask for power.

To repeat what I said in another thread, Jormag gets mistakenly treated by some norn, mainly (if not solely) by the Sons of Svanir, as a Spirit of the Wild (it isn’t); the various uncorrupted norn following the Ice Dragon hope to gain powers from it in the same way a norn draws power from the Spirit of the Bear (on a side note, the grawls are just fascinated in the powers displayed by the Claw); when presented with what Jormag really does, uncorrupted Sons of Svanir may flee. How (and if) Jormag “whispers” to those yet to be corrupted is unclear (even though we have an example with the Frost Portal hero point in Drakkar Spurs), but in the end we know that Jormag enslaves those corrupted like any other Dragon does: the end result is the same for any Elder Dragon, anyone corrupted will fall to the Dragon’s will; the only difference is the kind of magic used by each Dragon (fire, ice, plant, etc…).

Konig Des Todes.2086

All Snaff’s research excerpt really states is that you control magic with your thoughts… which is true. It says nothing about overriding one’s free will, whether by magic user or by magic addiction.

That particular Snaff’s research actually alludes to that, quoting: “manipulating magical elements with the mind”; I argued that’s what the Elder Dragons do: they are able to control subjects imbued with their respective kind of magic, compromising their mind in the process.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Which contradicts every stated fact that we know about draconic energy/dragon magic.

And the fact that you will never, ever hear the term “dragon magic” or “draconic energy” without direct relation to the Elder Dragons.

You talk about stated facts… The only stated fact is that Elder Dragons get sustain from eating magic (as proven by Gorr’s research).
We do not have a clear definition of “dragon magic”: would you be able to express your personal view? Because, as of now, I have the feeling you interpret “dragon magics” as separate aspects from the natural ones: for example there’s ice magic but, in your view, Jormag uses something different and it would originate from the Dragon itself somehow: nothing states this. Again, the only fact is that Elder Dragons are dependent to magic. The Elder Dragons are simply magic-users (very powerful ones) and as such make use of magic like anyone else could potentially do; no magical particles originally exist because of them.

Regarding the second part of the quote: that’s pretty obvious, really: there’s no such thing as “dragon magic” to begin with.
Tyrians have seen and have associated this behaviour just in regards to the Elder Dragons; there’s no reason not to refer to it as “dragon magic” for tyrians.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Given the history of humanity, it seems very evident that Snaff was simply wrong. […] Worlds can exist without magic. History of humanity, where they come from a magicless world, proves this.

The early history of humanity is still shrouded in mistery. It is said the human gods (or four of them in principle: Dwayna, Balthazar, Lyssa and Melandru; not sure if Abaddon was left out because of him getting eradicated from the history books and if Dhumm can be considered a human god, priorly to Grenth’s ascension) first entered the world of Tyria around the orrian region, specifically close to the artesian well, and that they brought humans with them. But we also know the first historical documentation of humans come from Cantha, and it’s suggested that early humans come from even souther than Cantha; so there is no clear human history (or origin at least) as of now, and even less about their (supposed) world of origin, of which we know nothing.
However, if the human gods are to be intended as very powerful humans who ascended into “godhood” (comparable to dragons becoming “Elder Dragons” on planet Tyria), it’s hard to believe that the alien world from which supposedly the humans, and the human gods, come from was magicless. Where minds are, magic also is and (quite possibly) vice versa, magic can’t be taken out of the equation, ever.

—CONTINUES—

Konig Des Todes.2086

There is no mental corruption, just the removal of free will and creation of a mental link (hive mind). Unless this is what you’re referring to with “mental corruption” in which case you’re using a confusing misnomer.

“The mind is corrupted” has to be intended as “the mind is compromised”, the mind gets changed, poisoned by the Dragons. The hive mind view is kinda confusing in my opinion, since it is confirmed only when regarding the Destroyers in relation to the Great Destroyer, and they are very particular creations comparable to constructs; if anything the Dragon has access to the mind of those corrupted, it has access to the past and future experiences (knowledges) of those corrupted and is able to communicate with and/or through those corrupted (or at least with the most powerful minions). In the most recent living world episode (EP3) we can witness a high rank corrupted Svanir (possessing high quantities of magic and retaining most his mind capabilities) giving direct orders to his weaker (and it follows lower in rank) corrupted Brothers; so, while this high rank Svanir’s will is forever lost to that of the Dragon, he’s still an individual mind (like every minion really).

Konig Des Todes.2086

I think I just stated the exact reason to believe that it is proven otherwise. Captain Grumby was killed atop of a bloodstone, yet he is not crazed like those killed atop of the Maguuma Bloodstone.

Captain Grumby is quite different from the typical Chosen, and not because of the bloodstone on which he happened to be sacrificed: the Chosen didn’t know what they were going through: they’re scared, deranged, disoriented about their condition, they refuse to face reality (they had trust and believed in the White Mantle and they were ultimately betrayed); the Chosen are blinded by their inner struggle and don’t seem to recall who did this to them, accusing every living being they come in contact with instead. In the event Defeat the spirit of Justiciar Hablion however, we are able to heal the deranged spirits and make them face reality, finally opening their eyes to what really happened: it was the White Mantle to do this to them.

When a ghost is defeated

Angered Spirit (Female): You murdered us all!
Angered Spirit (Male): I remember now. The White Mantle are our enemies. So many broken promises! You betrayed us! Hablion!
Deranged Spirit (Female): Death to the oppressors!!
Deranged Spirit (Male): They must pay for their treachery!
Enraged Spirit (Female): It was you, Hablion! You imprisoned us! You…killed us!
Enraged Spirit (Male): Hablion!

On the other hand, Captain Grumby knows he was sacrificed to the mursaat by the White Mantle, he knows who did this to him and how he ended there, he wasn’t tricked by the Mantle’s lies. Why however… why the bloodstones have this effect over the souls imprisoned in them (once the Door of Komalie was broken, each spirit went back into its respective bloodstone) is the real question, and we do not know (and I doubt even Grumby knows why he’s stuck there, in the vicinity of a bloodstone).

Konig Des Todes.2086

And we know that Bloodstones were designed […] The Seers created the Bloodstone via the Shadowstone.

Of course the original Bloodstone was designed by the Seers, we know that. I was arguing about the crystalline formations… Based on its icon, the Shadowstone is a metallic magical container and it seems to work together with crystals to channel magic inside and store it for future use (and now that I think about it, the ancient Seer artifact stolen from the Durmand Priory by the White Mantle was probably a Shadowstone). The Shadowstone is loosely a (portable) precursor of the Bloodstone: the main difference however is that the magic channeled inside a Shadowstone was tappable at will, while the Bloodstone was strictly designed as a container: an outer shell containing magic, aided in channeling magic by the crystalline formations; magic could just be taken from the Bloodstone via the use of separate artifacts.

So the Bloodstone as a whole is composed by an outer shell (a containment border) and by those blood-red crystalline formations.

The crystal does not equal a Bloodstone. In your view – I think you view the red crystals as the Bloodstone – it would be impossible for the Shadowstone to even exist priorly to the Bloodstone, since it’s implied it uses those very same crystals to function; do you see the paradox?

—CONTINUES—

Konig Des Todes.2086

If that was the case, they [the holograms] would not be capable of damaging things.

Light interacts with matter, it can push matter and it can “damage” matter. Also, consider what a laser (light) is able to do. Scarlet’s holograms are referred to as light constructs, along other things they make use of laser attacks; the magical aspect deals with shaping and constraining light and might be linked to eventual magical spells used by said holograms.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Then you’d call every necromancer evil.

That would happen (and it does happen amongst tyrians if I recall correctly) just if you approach necromancers with the prejudice that dealing with death is an evil/bad thing.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Thing is that we see purple with every Elder Dragons’ corruption to small degrees (sans Primordus). So whether the comment was originally a joke, it has been kept around and remains evident. That said, I think the idea is “all evil has purple hues, but not all purple is evil”.

I’ll repropose this statement of mine, which you quoted: “in my view, dark energy (which I associated with purple) is related to evil/bad”, in addition to this, in my view dark energy is related to the Dragons.

Konig Des Todes.2086

How is this at all different?

“Elder Dragons use the same magic everyone else uses”

“Dragon magic (Defined as the magic Elder Dragons use) is the same magic we use”

The focus on a word can make the difference. The focus is not “dragon” but “magic”: that’s why I switched the words: we don’t use “dragon magic”, we all use the same “magic” (even the Elder Dragons).
There’s no reason to refer to “magic” as “dragon magic”, since the latter is not a thing; there is nothing that’s exclusive to the Dragons’ nature; anyone powerful enough could absorb their “spheres”.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Even if a fractal is an exact duplicate, the events change the moment the PCs enter the fractal.

Ree Soesbee stated something very clear actually there: "[…] you can go back in your own minds and sort of write someone into a memory where they weren’t there and what would have happened “if this person went to the movies with us.” And the fractals are very simpler, the Mists are very simpler". The movie (the end result) won’t change, its interpretation may change.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Explosions can happen for multiple reasons, you know.

Indeed, and one of these reasons being when Anomalies absorb too much magical energies.

Konig Des Todes.2086

You know… Mesmers’ magic?

Kind of why they have a trait line that says “Chaos Magic”

I’m not implying anywhere that “chaos magic” is not a thing.

Konig Des Todes.2086

You’re now contradicting yourself. Earlier you said they pulled magic from the ley lines to duplicate dragon corruption.

Now you’re saying they didn’t draw from ley lines.

It cannot be both.

No contradiction here: ley lines are a very separate magical “thing” compared to the magical aspects that flow through them, those that magic-users utilize; it’s important to separate the two. There are “empty” ley lines, in which no magical aspect runs through them. “Pulling magic from the ley lines” doesn’t necesseraly mean pulling the ley lines themselves, that’s what I was intending.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Either Scarlet was lying, or Ellen Kiel, Marjory Delaqua, and two Inquest members were lying. They couldn’t all be telling the truth.

Or perhaps nobody was lying. If you think you are interacting with something (the Inquest thought it was “chaos magic”) even if in reality it’s not what you think it to be, you aren’t really lying: you are wrong.

Konig Des Todes.2086

I never said Scarlet lied about Thaumanova being over ley lines – we know this is true per the Season 1 finale cinematic.

Exactly, we know that is true; and not just over ley lines, but over an intersection of ley lines (a ley line hub). Is it then that far off to think the Inquest was unknowingly tapping from the ley lines? On a side note, the waypoint system itself exploits the ley lines after all.

Konig Des Todes.2086

I never said anything about Scarlet implying dragon energies running through ley lines – however, I will say now that nothing in her dialogue implies this.

But of course that’s implied in her speech: she keeps talking about ley lines, ley lines’ intersections and “dragon energy” in the same context. In Scarlet’s view (which, I think, is the correct view) these infamous “dragon energies” could very well be the ley lines themselves, intended as the source of energy that helps sustain the Elder Dragons (we know afterall that’s what Scarlet used: the ley lines, and not “dragon energies” nor “dragon magics”, because, again, these aren’t even proper “dragon” things).

—CONTINUES—

Konig Des Todes.2086

It makes clear usage of the ley lines after Scarlet moved the machine there.

The Existence of ley lines has long been theorized, and they have had many names. In 1316, a sylvari named Ceara (alias Scarlet Briar) found proof.

Do your research, please.

Ley lines weren’t confirmed until Ceara – as Scarlet Briar – figured it out (I’m fairly certain 1316 is a typo for 1326, given that in 1316 Scarlet would have been with the charr gladium at the time).

I can’t really tell from that link where it should state that Scarlet moved Omadd’s machine. I really think Omadd was aided by Scarlet in perfectioning his machine (before the asura was killed obviously), given the interest in Scarlet to learn about the Eternal Alchemy.

Also, 1326 would be a terribly wrong date for the discovery of ley lines, since Scarlet entered Omadd’s machine in 1320 (or if we suppose she re-entered the machine on her own, she did so roughly a year later, in 1321) so I highly doubt that’s a typo. Omadd’s machine (as we’re presented to it in Dry Top – also it’s called “Omadd’s machine”, not “Scarlet’s machine” nor “Omadd’s revisited machine”) is honestly designed to channel and make use of the ley lines. Also, in 1324, Scarlet already knew quite well about the ley lines and had dealt with them already, before experimenting in Thaumanova.

In addition, the Cavern of the Shining Light is a revered place for the centaurs living around there (if I recall correctly); while not explicitly stated by the centaurs to be ley lines, the knowledge of those lights flowing underground might have reached Ceara (while being in Town of Prosperity or elsewhere), and might have rang a bell in her mind (given the theories about the ley lines which she most certainly already knew about).

Konig Des Todes.2086

The only thing she’s stated to have shared is claiming all the chaos magic was draconic energies.

She does not say “chaos energy” is “dragon energy”: she says the Inquest misunderstood what they were dealing with, it’s pretty different.
Also, I wasn’t referring to her final speech in the fractal, but to the things shared with the Inquest representatives collaborating with her before going to Thaumanova:

Inquest Operative (1): Chaos magic? That’s not what the special consultant says. You don’t have any idea what’s really going on here, do you?

Which implies something more than “it’s not chaos magic” was shared with some Inquest members by Scarlet.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Which counters what’s brought up later, and does not involve the discovery of ley lines.

Scarlet obviously already discovered the ley lines priorly to the Thaumanova events, as I’ve addressed before.

Konig Des Todes.2086

It was actually Ellen Kiel who spread the knowledge of ley lines. […] Kiel wouldn’t be saying it’d be a significant breakthrough if ley lines were known prior to the end of 1326 AE.

I don’t really understand, would that be suprising? Nor Scarlet nor Inquest members would share their knowledge with their enemies.

In addition, I have the impression you keep assuming that 1316 was a typo because it doesn’t make sense to you.

Konig Des Todes.2086

The term “dragon magic” and “draconic energies” is only and always used in reference to the corrupting magic, the stuff that creates dragon minions. Without. Exception.

As I said earlier: “tyrians have seen and have associated this behaviour [dragon corruption] just in regards to the Elder Dragons; there’s no reason not to refer to it as ‘dragon magic’ for tyrians”.
And from the most recent living world episode (EP3) I think it’s pretty clear that the magic used by the Dragons is not really their own magic.

—CONTINUES—

Konig Des Todes.2086

Honestly, not being able to see a Margonite would not stop people from making an association so long as they had a reliable (to them) description.

As far as we know, margonites stopped interacting with the “flesh world” long ago, before the elder dragons even started to awaken; why would tyrians need or want to connect those to “dragon corruption” when they know they were a result of Abaddon’s corruption?

Konig Des Todes.2086

Ehhhhh….

Burn, buuurn!

You sure about that?

I’m pretty sure of what I’m saying, that’s just a Molten dredge being an hateful dredge (he laughs too).
Not sure if you’re implying something here; are you even being serious?

Back in GW1, the Flame Legion treated the Titans as their newfound gods. Once the Titans were annihilated, the Destroyers took their place as godlike figures (and not Primordus) but they [the Destroyers] ultimately kill everyone, even Flame Legion representatives.

In GW2, their god figure is instead one of their own kind: Gaheron Baelfire.
It’s clear Flame shamans (and it follows Molten shamans too) are not a case of “dragon corruption”.

This would be cool idea of how DSD corruption could work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDFqAPWbuy0