Guild Wars 2

Personally I see the lightning being a side effect of nature being perverted to the will of the dragons. It seems like the storm and the lightning can be a reaction between the nature as it is and the nature of the dragon fighting between each other. This makes sense to me because it is found a lot in the Dragonbrand, which is a dragon perversion that stretches throughout the world. It is also found a lot in the north with Jormag’s creeping corruption, mostly from what we can tell it is on the front lines of it.

I’ve read the first few pages and just wanted to point out that in Chinese cosmology “wood” is an element (as is “metal”). This dragons with its supposed focus on plants appears to have this sort of archetypical elemental “wood” as as its material in the same way Jormag is tied to ice.

I also felt there was a strong tie in the language used for the corruptive adjective. “Blight” is primarily a term used for disease among plants.

Fun reading regardless. I imagine we’ll find ANet’s revealtions very much along these lines.

To answer the question on how lightning (electricity) can create crystal, I based this theory on electrocrystallization (in summary, a strong electric field can cause liquids to crystallize). That said, my original intention was just to ask if it’s possible that a form of electrocrystallization could be used by Kralkatorrik to create his crystals, and not to declare that this was the exact method he uses.

Monsters attuning themselves to the nearest or strongest element on waking and gaining abilities that relate to that element is a plot device, and doesn’t have to make real-world logical sense. Same goes for concepts like ‘they remain attuned to that element while awake’ or ‘on awakening they will again attune themselves to the strongest nearby element’. It may not apply to the elder dragons, and examples may be found to disprove this plot device, but saying ‘it makes no sense’ doesn’t prove anything. Furthermore, we’re discussing a group of fictional magical creatures with origins lost in history and immense power; with the huge gaps in our knowledge of the dragons, they could be doing what they do for reasons that only make sense to them; so long as a theory doesn’t directly contradict what has been established as fact (and not belief) and cannot be proven to be clearly untrue, then it could be possible (that said, how likely is a different matter).

Jormag was only brought up regarding corruption levels, Sons of Svanir vs Icebrood, and how Jormag corrupts using his element of ice. I only pointed out his method of corruption doesn’t counter my theory when Konig used it as a counter point.

I’ve mentioned before that Kralkatorrik was sleeping as a ‘mountain’ in the middle of a lake, and that storms may have frequently surrounded him as a result. Two essential things for the forming of storms are moisture (the lake) and unstable air (heat from the body of a sleeping dragon causes water to evaporate, then condense above in the cooler air). If Kralkatorrik awoke in the middle of a storm and attuned himself to it, this would theoretically give him its power and allow him to use electricity, which I then linked to the theory of electrocrystallization mentioned above.

While historical evidence so far tells us what elements the dragons were, it doesn’t tell us why they were that element, whether they have always been (and will always be) that element, and if the element was a result of selection how this selection process was carried out. Since this thread was originally about the possible element/desire of a sixth as-yet-unknown dragon, I brought up the question of the origins of their elements to see if any leads could be worked out regarding the element of the unknown dragon.

Mordremoth using plantlife conflicts with the theory that non-plant creatures like grubs and spiders are also linked to his corruption.

I do not think electrocrystallization turns solids into crystals, which is what Kralk’s corruption does. Mind you, when it comes to water, it does seem like his passing and creation of the Dragonbrand super-heated and super-cooled it (there’s some domes that look like solidified boiling water in the Dragonbrand, often near water), but most of the water in the Dragonbrand was left untouched – it was just the solid things altered. Which is not electrocrystallization.

And you’re not listening. My argument isn’t “it makes no sense” but rather “it makes no sense, because Kralkatorrik doesn’t wake near lightning or crystals” – bolding so that you can see what exactly you’ve been ignoring since the start of this (you’ve never once mentioned storms being present when he awoke, btw). Your argument depends on what’s nearby at the moment of awakening, and as we can tell from Edge of Destiny, no storms were nearby when Kralkatorrik awoke – not until after he awoke and made the storms himself.

Another thing you’re ignoring is the fact that Kralkatorrik was always Elder Crystal Dragon – as proven by Glint – and that Jormag and Primordus were always Ice and Fire. So by your argument, they would always need to be awakening near crystal, ice and fire (respectively), however they move around. So that’s highly unlikely to be the case.

I was focusing more on the crystallization of living creatures, as they would have liquid content in their bodies. The large crystals on the ground also appear more to have erupted through the surface rather than be growing from the ground (this is subjective), so I was guessing that perhaps the moisture from the earth was converted to crystal and forced its way out through the earth. While the ground in Branded territory has a crunchy, crystalline feel, I’m not sure if the ground itself has been turned to crystal, or just all the moisture. Although the lakes still contain water, there are also large amounts of crystallization and Branded in them; unless it is known that Kralkatorrik breathed on the lake and nothing happened to the water, it cannot be proved that the water was really untouched (there are rivers leading into Branded territory, and I’d assume that it still rains).

regfurby.4296

Dragon elements: I meant that the dragons (and not their minions) chose their element based on their original location; Primordus awoke deep underground among rock and lava, Jormag awoke in the far north among snow and ice, Zhaitan awoke beneath an ancient submerged rotting city (other than rot, he seems to like coral, barnacles, tentacle-things and suddenly bursting out from the water), and Kralkatorrik awoke as a ‘mountain’ in the middle of a lake (my OP has a theory on how Kralkatorrik might be using electricity to create the crystals; he is described as being surrounded by storm clouds and having ‘golden breath’, and his original location might have been frequently subject to storms… my belief is that his element is electricity rather than crystal). All these suggest that the dragons simply took as their element whatever they were in contact with when they awoke, and not in relation to their desire (for example, Glint, who was a champion of Kralkatorrik in his previous awakening, looks nothing like the Shatterer or other Branded minions).

While Kralkatorrik did not wake near crystal in this cycle, if he woke surrounded by storms then that would be a source of lightning. Of course, if he did not wake surrounded by storms, and the storms only started to surround him after he took flight, then the theory of taking nearby elements would be disproved.

We don’t know where the dragons awoke during the last cycle; even if they moved around, they could have went to sleep in the same area, or it could have been coincidence that the area they slept in had the same element. Either way it’s not something that can be used to disprove the possibility of elemental attunement.

Pages 341 to 347 of Edge of Destiny describes Kralkatorrik’s awakening in detail. There is no rain, lightning, thunder, or storms mentioned as he awakens – just rumbling and creatures around the scaly mountain being transformed into large crystallized beings. He doesn’t create crystals via lightning, and he himself blocked out the sun (something no possible if there was a storm) just after he awoke. There’s no mention of lightning until the scene where Chief Kronan was branded (right before Kralkatorrik flew over Ebonhawke). I think there’s also lightning in the scene of Almorra’s retelling in Ghosts of Ascalon, but that’s less relevant since we know that when he woke, there was no lightning.

The first scene of Kralkatorrik’s awakening states how his breath – no lightning involved – turned the first of his branded. The second scene (with Chief Kronan of the ogres) showed yellow lightning striking his tribe and “broiled” them as it transformed their “muscles to crystals and their bone to stone” – so it was turning their physical mass, not their liquid mass.

Furthermore, all evidence points to Kralkatorrik corrupting physical – that is to say solid – matter. He leaves ghosts unharmed and the water appeared untouched besides the possible super-boiling and super-cooling that I mentioned before as the only change in the branded lakes is the animals and ground, the water itself for the most part is unchanged.

So, again, for the tenth or so time, your theory is disproven. Please stop being stubborn and read the whole of my posts, because I’ve explained that there is no lightning when Kralkatorrik awakes – as proven by Edge of Destiny – several times already. You’re only paying attention to my addendums, the side points which are less stable. Here, I present no side points, only facts that disprove you.

To summarize my points:

• There was no storm when Kralkatorrik awoke, but there was when he flew south – this storm is one he made.
• He corrupted and made Branded via his breath/presence, and lightning, so he does not create crystals via lightning – he makes both directly.
• All observations and descriptions show that he only corrupts physical mass.

I want to point out when it comes to this changing attunement theory. The Great Destroyer has been around and serving Primordius since his last awakening, and both times now he has been fire and rock related…

@Konig

Then you should have listed all these details earlier, instead of saying ‘Kralkatorrik did not awake near crystals or lightning so your theory is disproven’ ten times or so.

Most cells in a human body contain water, so muscle is not a reliable example of only solids being transformed (bone may have no liquid, but marrow does; this is more tricky to argue). The same would likely go for most other living creatures, although I wouldn’t claim to know their physiology. While around half of a human body is liquid, there remains another half to be accounted for; in the case of muscle, from your description it is entirely turned to crystal, but there are no details of the exact process; this leaves open the possibility that the liquid in the muscle cells crystallized and tore the solid fiber of the muscles apart. (Bone could have underwent a fossilization process which involves crystals filling up the hollow spaces of the bone and hardening it into rock.)

Your detailed description of the awakening of Kralkatorrik proves that he did not attune himself to a nearby element on waking in this cycle, and makes it unlikely that the other dragons performed any similar attunement in this cycle, or any cycle at all. However, this does not prove or disprove whether Kralkatorrik uses electricity to create crystal. Also, for further elaboration, the term ‘using electricity’ does not necessarily mean something as blatant as being struck by lightning, but could also refer to static electricity, magnetic currents and other electrical phenomena.

So, to answer your points:

There was no storm when Kralkatorrik awoke, but there was when he flew south – this storm is one he made.

• As said, this disproves my theory that Kralkatorrik attuned himself to a storm on waking, and further contends that the dragons perform any elemental attunement on waking, or at all. And only those theories.

He corrupted and made Branded via his breath/presence, and lightning, so he does not create crystals via lightning – he makes both directly.

• While he did not create crystals/Branded by striking them with lightning, this does not rule out the possibility of other electric phenomena, and we don’t have any detailed knowledge of his breath attack other than its visual aspect (golden) and the results of being attacked by it.

All observations and descriptions show that he only corrupts physical mass.

• The examples you listed cannot prove this, however. Living cells contain liquid, the ground contains moisture, and please clarify if the water example was written in the book as a first-hand observation (unfortunately, I don’t have Edge of Destiny, which is why I have to keep asking instead of just reading from it) or from in-game observation. A counterpoint to your solids-only argument is the common presence of uncrystallized rock and metal (both clearly and fully solid) in Branded territory; if solid matter was the focus of corruption, shouldn’t most of these have turned to crystal?

On a side note, I would like to bring up the Branded Spark. Based on physical appearance, it seems to be a dense field of living electricity; the loot table of regular Sparks suggest they have a crystal core, whereas the loot table of Branded Sparks do not contain any core (just dust and barbs). Are Branded Sparks a corruption of regular Sparks, or are they entirely a creation of Kralkatorrik? If they are corruptions, how did it take place, and what happened during the process?

@Narcemus.1348

The changing attunement theory only suggests the possibility that the elder dragons attuned to their element based on where they woke up. Things it does not suggest are: the dragons attuned to a different element this cycle from their last cycle, the dragons can change their attunement any time while awake, the dragons use elements around them to corrupt, dragon minions can change their attunement, dragon minions use elements around them to corrupt; these are just the ones I remember being discussed.

The Great Destroyer being fire/rock element for two cycles means that Primordus was fire/rock element for two cycles, but this does not rule out that Primordus woke up and attuned himself to fire/rock twice in a row. This was a pretty long discussion on semantics, please refer to previous posts for more details.

Either way, Konig has brought up a detailed example of Kralkatorrik’s awakening to disprove my basis for the theory that the dragons attune to their element on awakening, read it above. For all purposes this theory has been effectively disproved (unless someone else wants to support it with new evidence).

regfurby.4296:

Then you should have listed all these details earlier, instead of saying ‘Kralkatorrik did not awake near crystals or lightning so your theory is disproven’ ten times or so.

….

From my second to latest previous post:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Your argument depends on what’s nearby at the moment of awakening, and as we can tell from Edge of Destiny, no storms were nearby when Kralkatorrik awoke – not until after he awoke and made the storms himself.

And I dare say, stating that he didn’t wake up near lightning is the same exact thing as saying “there were no storms when he awoke.”

I didn’t bring up his crystallization method off the bat because I at first requested clarification on how lighting makes crystals. When you explained, I then explained how Kralkatorrik twists solids, which is not what your explanation entails. I suppose I should have skipped straight to “Kralkatorrik doesn’t corrupt (solely) though lightning.”

Humans, sure, but the muscles and bone comes from ogres, not humans. And I only pulled out a portion of the description; here’s the full:

A golden thunderstroke broke across Chief Kronon and his warriors.
It bathed them. It broiled them. It turned their muscles into crystal and their bones to stone.
He felt like he was dying.
He felt like he was solidifying – a pupa becoming a wasp.
He grew twice his height before his hide hardened. Then his bones warped to basalt. His hair elongated into thorny spikes.

Backstepping a page, allow me to write the description for Kralkatorrik corrupting a charr and the land nearby:
Ferroc Torchtail crawled across the ground. His broken limbs ached, but he struggled to find cover.
Then the dragon’s breath flooded over him.
He was transfixed
Transformed.
Hackles melted to spines, hair to scales.
Legs crystallized.
Ferroc was becoming something new. The dragon’s kiln-hot breath was hardening fear into fury and turning him into a giant.
Then the golden gale moved on, pouring on new ground and baking it and transforming it. The dragon scudded away like a thunderhead.
Ferroc stood in the burned and branded wake of the beast, and with his last conscious thought, he hungered to serve Kralkatorrik.

These descriptions do not include turning liquid into crystal, but rather hardening solids through heat. Its basically overcooking them (which is continued to the fight with Destiny’s Edge, which describes the corruption of land as “the ground seemed to melt, to boil and twist” and “the plasma splashed down across the desert, melting sand to glass […]” said plasma referring to the breath).

Edge of Destiny does, actually, disprove the notion that Kralkatorrik must use lightning to make the crystals. Above, with Ferroc, he uses his breath – not lightning. As I stated in my previous post, he uses breath, presence, and lightning to corrupt. Earlier before Ferroc, Branded are coming from near Kralkatorrik away from his head (closer to the back of the neck by the description), so it’s unlikely he breathed on those, but they still became corrupted due to being near him.

Unless you’re wanting to claim that his breath holds electrical charge as does his body. Which is plausible, but given the other portions of Edge of Destiny (such as when Kralkatorrik fights Destiny’s Edge – no lightning ever used, nor any electrical attacks, just turning into a sandstorm (which isn’t electrical at all) and breathing), I find it extremely unlikely.

Furthermore, when Snaff dives into Kralkatorrik’s mind there isn’t even an ounce of mention of lightning, electricity, thunder or related bits. The closest you get is the comparison of his mind to a cyclone, but only once and the rest was always a storm of sand or a crystalline tempest or the like. Everything else, is crystal.

regfurby.4296:

please clarify if the water example was written in the book as a first-hand observation […]or from in-game observation. A counterpoint to your solids-only argument is the common presence of uncrystallized rock and metal (both clearly and fully solid) in Branded territory; if solid matter was the focus of corruption, shouldn’t most of these have turned to crystal?

In-game observation for the water – both from environment as well as objects and NPCs (such as the Branded Waterfall skill point in Iron Marches, which talks about it containing corruption, yet its not crystal (or electrical)); as for the rock, if you take note what is crystallized is organic, while inorganic solids are simply blackened (which would explain why Branded Earth Elementals look rather lack-of-crystal), with only some purple glow and patches of crystals, this also fits the book descriptions mentioned above, where the land is boiled and melted, rather than being described as crystals. Ghosts of Ascalon also shows this the same – the plants are what’s called to be crystals, aside from the crystal guardian giant, though the true nature of that being is left ambiguous (was it a giant? an elemental? or as it seemed, the land coming to life?).

Regarding the Branded Air Elementals: I’d presume the former, otherwise they should be purple – or golden based on the book – as all lightning related to Kralkatorrik in game is purple (and in the book, golden). But these are blue.

regfurby.4296:

@Narcemus.1348

The changing attunement theory only suggests the possibility that the elder dragons attuned to their element based on where they woke up. Things it does not suggest are: the dragons attuned to a different element this cycle from their last cycle, the dragons can change their attunement any time while awake, the dragons use elements around them to corrupt, dragon minions can change their attunement, dragon minions use elements around them to corrupt; these are just the ones I remember being discussed.

The Great Destroyer being fire/rock element for two cycles means that Primordus was fire/rock element for two cycles, but this does not rule out that Primordus woke up and attuned himself to fire/rock twice in a row. This was a pretty long discussion on semantics, please refer to previous posts for more details.

Either way, Konig has brought up a detailed example of Kralkatorrik’s awakening to disprove my basis for the theory that the dragons attune to their element on awakening, read it above. For all purposes this theory has been effectively disproved (unless someone else wants to support it with new evidence).

I apologize, my impatience didn’t allow me to finish reading your (both of your) 6 page long responses in this account.

@Konig

Your second to last post contained the declaration that I’d been ignoring Kralkatorrik not waking near lightning or crystals all along, that I’d never mentioned storms, and that from Edge of Destiny no storms were mentioned surrounding him until he took flight, all in the same paragraph. I admit that I chose not to address the third statement until the issues with the first two were resolved; even so, that cuts the 10 times or so down to 9.

Hackles melted to spines, hair to scales.

Of the entire excerpt, I’d say that this is the only line that directly links the heat of Kralkatorrik’s plasma breath to crystallization, while the rest are just inference (the victim was bathed in plasma, melted, and became crystal; therefore the crystallization was a result of melting in the plasma). However, the lack of anything electrical being described is a strong indicator that electricity is not a part of his breath attack (unless it was at unnoticeable levels, but a typical plot would have given other hints that it exists anyway), and I would guess that this ongoing debate would also mean that nothing electrical was mentioned anywhere in the book regarding Kralkatorrik’s corruption, so I would have to concede that electricity is probably not involved in Kralkatorrik’s corruption process, regardless of whether or not it is possible.

That said, I still want to point out some things:

• Corruption by presence just means that Kralkatorrik exudes an aura that corrupts creatures that are exposed to it. It doesn’t signify what that aura is (it could be magical, electrical, chemical, or something else). It is the lack of any electrical description that makes the aura unlikely to be electricity.

• Rather than corruption by lightning, I was arguing for corruption by electrical phenomena. I also never declared it as the sole method for Kralkatorrik’s corruption.

• Plasma (superheated matter) happens to be a good conductor of electricity, so it really is possible to claim that Kralkatorrik’s breath attack contains electrical charges.

• I would assume no heat or plasma was discovered by Snaff when delving into Kralkatorrik’s mind either, so this doesn’t explain why his plasma breath attack causes crystallization. Also, corruption by presence makes it clear that even if the heat of Kralkatorrik’s plasma breath causes crystallization, it is not the only method of crystallization, and is also not a necessary factor.

• I assume your point about water is that if liquids were the target of crystallization and all water was crystallized, then there should be lakes of crystal (and not why there is water in the Brand; that would be because there are rivers that flow into the Brand and it still rains). While I used liquids as an example, I didn’t specify it as water, and was instead referring to liquid in organic cells and moisture found in the earth (which is not the same as water). This is the same as you saying that Kralkatorrik corrupts solid matter and targeting animals and the ground, but actually meaning organic solid matter (which would not count rock and metal). While corrupted-but-not-crystallized water is a good counterpoint for liquids being a target for corruption (and crystallization), it also raises the question of how much the crystallization is related to Kralkatorrik’s corruption at all (What kind of corruption creates crystals and what does not? What are the limits of his corruption?)

• Correct me if I’m wrong, but I would have thought organic solid matter refers to solid matter composed of living cells (which contain liquid).

• If Branded air elementals are corrupted from normal air elementals, and crystal is the result of Kralkatorrik’s corruption, then why do Branded air elementals not drop the crystal cores that their uncorrupted counterparts drop? (This is based on the loot table provided in the wiki, and so may be unreliable.)

Aside from all that, this also caught my eye:

Ferroc was becoming something new. The dragon’s kiln-hot breath was hardening fear into fury and turning him into a giant.

Why fury? Does this have any relation to Kralkatorrik’s desire?

Narcemus.1348:

I apologize, my impatience didn’t allow me to finish reading your (both of your) 6 page long responses in this account.

6 pages? We’re only on page 3 for me.

Then again, the pages are looooong.

@Refugby: Ten was obviously an exaggeration. I’ve only stated it probably 4 or so times, if that, excluding the last time.

As to electricity, the only time it is used for corrupting is when it struck the ogres; he does use it to strike at Ebonhawke’s walls, but that’s an attack not corruption (no corruption around the walls was made). Only other presence of anything electrical in description is just the storm that surrounded him as he flew south.

“It is the lack of any electrical description that makes the aura unlikely to be electricity.”

Which is what I’ve been saying from the get go.

“I also never declared it as the sole method for Kralkatorrik’s corruption.”

Not explicitly, no, but you definitely implied that being the sole means of him making crystals.

“Plasma (superheated matter) happens to be a good conductor of electricity, so it really is possible to claim that Kralkatorrik’s breath attack contains electrical charges.”

Fire is also plasma, which is a typical fantasy affiliation with dragons.

“I would assume no heat or plasma was discovered by Snaff when delving into Kralkatorrik’s mind either, so this doesn’t explain why his plasma breath attack causes crystallization. Also, corruption by presence makes it clear that even if the heat of Kralkatorrik’s plasma breath causes crystallization, it is not the only method of crystallization, and is also not a necessary factor.”

No, I don’t think there was heat or plasma mentioned in Kralkatorrik’s mind – just crystals, sandstorms, and his mental thoughts. However, one must also remember that all Elder Dragons corrupt via presence, and multiple via breath (at least Primordus and the DSD are said to).

“While corrupted-but-not-crystallized water is a good counterpoint for liquids being a target for corruption (and crystallization), it also raises the question of how much the crystallization is related to Kralkatorrik’s corruption at all (What kind of corruption creates crystals and what does not? What are the limits of his corruption?)”

For Elder Dragons, as seen in-game via Zhaitan, corruption lies in the magic they exude and can affect things beyond their minions or element – for example, the lands of Orr are corrupted by Zhaitan, including the water and very air, despite the fact that he only makes minions out of corpses, and when said corpses are devoured what did the devouring becomes corrupted but not a Risen (as seen in Sparkfly Fen). Each Elder Dragon seems to hold two forms of corruption: influencial and minion-making – the former is simply the spreading of their corruption which alters what’s corrupted but doesn’t turn the entity into their element (e.g., Branded or Dragonbrand), whereas the latter does. Perhaps this is caused out of potency of corruption, or directness. Either way, the corrupted magic is being spread but new minions not formed from it.

“Correct me if I’m wrong, but I would have thought organic solid matter refers to solid matter composed of living cells (which contain liquid).”

Oh, sure, get technical on me. The Elder Dragons very obviously hold preferences for what they corrupt – Kralkatorrik corrupts the physical. Allow me to reiterate what I meant: he twists all physical things, but only makes crystalline minions out of organic solids, whereas inorganic solids still become twisted but not moving minions (with exceptions of his dragon champions like the Shatterer and the
Branded Lieutenants":http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Veteran_Branded_Lieutenant ).

“If Branded air elementals are corrupted from normal air elementals, and crystal is the result of Kralkatorrik’s corruption, then why do Branded air elementals not drop the crystal cores that their uncorrupted counterparts drop? (This is based on the loot table provided in the wiki, and so may be unreliable.)”

shrug I dunno. Why does it not drop charged or crystal cores irregardless of its origin? It doesn’t seem to be made of crystals so crystal cores make no sense for either version to me.

“Why fury? Does this have any relation to Kralkatorrik’s desire?”

Given the situation, if minions feel the emotion of their dragon (which I find likely), then Kralkatorrik was undoubtably extremely enraged at Glint for her betrayal – he did head immediately after her, after all.

Kralkatorrik’s fury could explain why the branded attacked Ebonhawke in the first place. I mean the branded are hardly ever seen emerging that far from the Dragonband, but when Kralkatorrik first awoke, his minions completely obliterated the charr besieging army, and went directly for Ebonhawke, which was a very good distance from the Dragonbrand, in all honesty. But Kralky’s fury brought a special hatred for all living things to his new minions…

Narcemus.1348:

Kralkatorrik’s fury could explain why the branded attacked Ebonhawke in the first place. I mean the branded are hardly ever seen emerging that far from the Dragonband, but when Kralkatorrik first awoke, his minions completely obliterated the charr besieging army, and went directly for Ebonhawke, which was a very good distance from the Dragonbrand, in all honesty. But Kralky’s fury brought a special hatred for all living things to his new minions…

Most of the minions seem to inherit the vendetta of their dragon masters, and Kralk was furious over Glint and was after her, the fact he assaulted Ebonhawke and everything in between was just circumstantial because it was in between him and Glint’s lair in the crystal desert.

Actually, the reason why the Branded attacked Ebonhawke was because they were trying to follow Kralkatorrik:

Chief Kronan watched the beam go. It was heading south, to Ebonhawke.
That was where the master was going.
Chief Kronan flexed crackling arms. “Follow!” he shouted. Even his voice rang like crystal. “Follow!”

Page 348

And in Fields of Ruin, the NPCs there state how the Branded are trying to head south, and since the Dragonbrand turns sharp west there, the Branded leave the Dragonbrand at that spot. They never get far because the Sentinels are present to keep them from getting far.

@Konig: I was just reusing the number you randomly threw out. At that point we were both on post 9.

“It is the lack of any electrical description that makes the aura unlikely to be electricity.”
Which is what I’ve been saying from the get go.

Except that you have never once said this; What you have said so far are (in post order): Kralkatorrik isn’t the only Elder Dragon related to lightning, Kralkatorrik doesn’t use lightning to form crystals, the Shatterer makes crystals without electrical animations, Kralkatorrik doesn’t wake up near crystal nor lightning, you don’t think electrocrystallization turns solids into crystals, Kralkatorrik doesn’t wake near lightning or crystals, no storms were nearby when Kralkatorrik awoke, (excerpt from Edge of Destiny.)

It was only after reading the excerpt and noting the lack of anything electrical being described in the transformation, that I conceded it was unlikely electricity was being used.

“I also never declared it as the sole method for Kralkatorrik’s corruption.”
Not explicitly, no, but you definitely implied that being the sole means of him making crystals.

Up to now, I have only been asking whether it was possible that Kralkatorrik’s method of creating crystal was through electrocrystallization, and the arguments against this have progressed from Kralkatorrik not waking near lightning to electrocrystallization of solids not being possible to heat being used to crystallize. Since my theory of electricity being used was never even once considered possible, naturally there was never an argument on whether electricity was the sole method of corruption. As for whether or not I was implying this: I would say no, I gave all possibilities equal consideration (and painstakingly went over every counterargument thrown at me); but then again this is subjective, wouldn’t you say?

“Plasma (superheated matter) happens to be a good conductor of electricity, so it really is possible to claim that Kralkatorrik’s breath attack contains electrical charges.”
Fire is also plasma, which is a typical fantasy affiliation with dragons.

There are long, long arguments on this subject (is fire a plasma?) on other threads, one of them can be found here. To sum up my findings, plasma conducts electricity, and arguments that fire is a plasma uses its electrical conductivity as proof that it is plasma. Since this argument was on whether Kralkatorrik’s plasma breath could contain electrical charges: yes, based on the properties of plasma it could, but based on other evidence (or lack thereof) it is unlikely to contain any electrical charges.

However, one must also remember that all Elder Dragons corrupt via presence, and multiple via breath (at least Primordus and the DSD are said to).

But we don’t know how the elder dragons corrupt by presence. It could be magical (meaning it can defy logic and make things happen just because), elemental (Jormag projecting a chilling aura that corrupts creatures into Icebrood, Zhaitan a poisonous/rotting aura that raises the dead etc) or something else. Also to clarify, presence/aura is something that happens automatically, and doesn’t require the dragon to specifically will it to happen, therefore examples of the elder dragons targeting specific creatures for corruption cannot be used. An argument could possibly be made, however, for creatures being hit by an elder dragon’s breath attack to also be under the influence of this aura, and being corrupted by presence rather than by the breath attack.

“Correct me if I’m wrong, but I would have thought organic solid matter refers to solid matter composed of living cells (which contain liquid).”
Oh, sure, get technical on me.

This particular argument went as follows: I suggested liquids in living cells were being electrocrystallized, you countered by saying solid matter was the one being targeted, I pointed out rock and metal wasn’t being crystallized, you countered by explaining it was the only the organic solid part of the rocks that were crystallized; so it’s only fair I point out that the organic solid part of rock would be solid matter composed of living cells, which brings me back to my first point.

Allow me to reiterate what I meant: he twists all physical things, but only makes crystalline minions out of organic solids, whereas inorganic solids still become twisted but not moving minions (with exceptions of his dragon champions like the Shatterer and the
Branded Lieutenants)

Which does nothing to disprove the electrocrystallization of the liquid in living cells. But I think while you’re still talking about crystallization of (organic) solids, your focus has shifted to something else; and since I’ve already conceded that electricity probably isn’t being used in the crystallization process, the electrocrystallization of liquid is now a moot point.

Other things:

• Air elementals look like a dense field/ball of electrical energy, and the crystal cores could mean just that, a crystal core surrounded by a dense field/ball of electrical energy (nothing illogical about that to me, it’s a fantasy creature after all). What puzzles me is why the crystal disintegrates to dust and barbs after being Branded, considering the crystallization of other Branded creatures.

• Since dragon minions share the emotions of their masters, are there any examples of what the current in-game Branded are feeling? This could give more evidence on whether Kralkatorrik indeed desires perfection (so far this is just an inference from Snaff discovering that Kralkatorrik seeks to fill the void within himself and attempting to assimilate Snaff, am I correct?).

By the way, thanks for sharing excerpts from Edge of Destiny, it really helps those of us without the book to understand what you’re referring to when using the book as an example.

• In that precise wording? No, I wasn’t saying that. But I was saying from the get go that Kralkatorrik shows no signs of using lightning as the primary component of his corruption. But enough splitting hairs over the unnecessaries.
• I’m just going to leave it as “how I read your wording gave the impression you were strongly implying such” rather than continuing to split hairs over more unnecessaries.
• I don’t really delve into the field of science enough to further argue the components of what plasma is – though I extremely doubt the writer of Edge of Destiny knew such either, and probably regarded the term plasma as the most layman-worthy definition of “a high temperature state between liquid and gas” (regardless of how accurate said definition is).
• Dragon minions corrupt in the same means that their Elder Dragon corrupts – Jormag and his icebrood corrupt mentally; Zhaitan’s corruption is produced via magical radiation; Primordus’ is less certain, though both the Great Destroyer and Destroyer of Life form destroyers from pools of lava. The difference is that Elder Dragons seem to hold more means of corruption (their breath, for instance). We know from Eye of the North that Elder Dragons radiate magic – even while hibernating. I don’t really know where you get the “chilling aura” for Jormag though. As to those hit by the breath being under this aura effect – I’d argue otherwise, as it would imply that those with the same distance but not in the breath’s effect would also be corrupted, however this does not seem to be the case – I’d instead argue that the breath attack (it is not constant, so it is a conscious action on the Elder Dragons’ part, akin to a typical fantasy dragon breathing fire) is more of an extension of the emitting corruptive magic. Though there’s a counter-argument to Kralkatorrik corrupting via presence – and that is that those creatures changed by being near Kralkatorrik were 1) right up next to him (literally coming out of crevices that was the “mountain” known as Kralkatorrik) and 2) pretty close to his head (about neck distance by the description, if not a little further), so considering Kralkatorrik corrupts physical matter primarily/solely, it may be that they were corrupted due to touching him, or alternatively that they were affected by the breath, which was redirected down his neck due to his head still being submerged in rock. Side note: it’s rather hard to debate stuff on a book with someone who hasn’t read it. :/
• But you were also arguing the crystallization of moisture in the ground too.
• No, but that wasn’t the focus – rather the focus was to help debunk the notion of liquid being crystallized, and primarily to pinpoint Kralkatorrik’s corrupting nature.
• Crystal Cores are just a high-end drop that’s better than Crystal Shards and so forth, and lesser than Crystal Lodestones; they’re effectively just a part of a Crystal Lodestone so that’s what you should focus on, not the word “core” but the word “lodestone” – a lodestone by nature is a magical stone, usually with elemental attunement (Glacial, Charged, Molten, etc.) and in the GW universe seems to be what most – if not all – elementals are made out of. The point was why a crystal core and not a charged core – or rather, lodestone. As for the existence of barbs – I believe that’s just a default junk drop, as during the BWEs, icebrood dropped them too (if they don’t now – I think now they drop ice shards).
• The best we got outside of defending their territory is that they’re heading south and somehow making more of themselves. This isn’t really personality, emotions or desires though, but I haven’t spent a lot of time in the Dragonbrand – not enough to enjoy enough events at least. The notion of perfection comes from that, yes, primarily the wording “The center of every vortex is a great emptiness-a hollow longing. The storm tries to fill the emptiness, but the more it hungers, the deeper the emptiness becomes. And Kralkatorrik’s hunger was insatiable. To draw the dragon, Snaff had to become the eye of the storm-to _be what the Kralkatorrik was not."_ There’s a bit more, entrenched in Snaff becoming Kralk’s opposite mentally which enraged Kralkatorrik and he as corrupting became unavailable, Kralk begins seeking to want to destroy, the intruding mind. It and other parts of the mentality of Kralkatorrik and the branded can be viewed as either seeking perfection, as I prefer, or as being greedy.

In that precise wording? No, I wasn’t saying that. But I was saying from the get go that Kralkatorrik shows no signs of using lightning as the primary component of his corruption.

The biggest issue I have with this is the repeated use of the word ‘lightning’, which is clearly being used in the context of a lightning strike (your focus), and not in the context of electricity (my focus), and which is also the primary reason for arguing everything but the point I’m trying to discuss. Furthermore, I believe there’s a huge difference between suggesting a possibility and supporting a possibility; but I agree, there’s no further need to argue semantics at this time.

[…]and probably regarded the term plasma as the most layman-worthy definition of “a high temperature state between liquid and gas” (regardless of how accurate said definition is)

Even in layman terms, plasma exists as a state after gas. If the writer of Edge of Destiny also had the misconception that plasma comes after liquid and before gas, then it’s my mistake for bringing up this topic.

I don’t really know where you get the “chilling aura” for Jormag though.

I’ll say straight up that the examples I gave of elemental auras are made up by me to describe what an elemental aura could be, and are in no way an actual description of the auras of the elder dragons (sorry for any misunderstanding). I also agree with the concept that the breath attack of an elder dragon contains high amounts of corruption (nothing to do with the plasma), and probably has nothing to do with corruption by presence.

But you were also arguing the crystallization of moisture in the ground too.

Slime contains moisture, but can’t be considered water. Although, to counter myself, I haven’t seen any Branded Oozes around.

No, but that wasn’t the focus – rather the focus was to help debunk the notion of liquid being crystallized, and primarily to pinpoint Kralkatorrik’s corrupting nature.

And, like I said, crystallizing organic solids does not debunk the notion of liquid being crystallized. But really, we’re just going around in circles due to semantics or misunderstandings.

Crystal Cores are just a high-end drop that’s better than Crystal Shards and so forth, and lesser than Crystal Lodestones;[…]

I was referring to the Buzzing Crystals and Shocking Crystals (both junk items) in the loot table, not the crafting materials.

“The center of every vortex is a great emptiness-a hollow longing. The storm tries to fill the emptiness, but the more it hungers, the deeper the emptiness becomes. And Kralkatorrik’s hunger was insatiable. To draw the dragon, Snaff had to become the eye of the storm-to be what the Kralkatorrik was not."

Based on this excerpt alone (I really need to get the book…), the only thing I can infer is that Snaff was trying to grab Kralkatorrik’s attention by being as unnatural as possible in his mind.

There’s a bit more, entrenched in Snaff becoming Kralk’s opposite mentally which enraged Kralkatorrik and he as corrupting became unavailable, Kralk begins seeking to want to destroy, the intruding mind.

The middle part is a bit garbled so I can’t make sense of it, but the end result I’m getting is that Kralkatorrik intended to destroy Snaff rather than become him.

Regarding the concept of Perfection: by definition, perfection means taking only the best qualities (a selective process), as opposed to taking everything; unless you view what you are not as the ‘perfect’ being (or just better), trying to be what you are not is unrelated to perfection.

Therefore, I have to ask: was Kralkatorrik drawn to Snaff because Snaff represented something completely opposite to him, or because Snaff represented what he viewed to be better than him?

regfurby.4296:

The biggest issue I have with this is the repeated use of the word ‘lightning’, which is clearly being used in the context of a lightning strike (your focus)

Actually, my focus is electricity. I simply use lightning because it’s what I just happen to write. Lightning strikes, thunder, sparks – I’m referring to all that. Though not static or electrolytes.

regfurby.4296:

Even in layman terms, plasma exists as a state after gas. If the writer of Edge of Destiny also had the misconception that plasma comes after liquid and before gas, then it’s my mistake for bringing up this topic.

Funnily enough, I grew up (not literally, mind you) being told that plasma is a state between liquid and gas.

So not all laymen would say plasma is a state after gas, unless I just have “archaic” (read: out of date by 5 or so years) knowledge.

regfurby.4296:

Slime contains moisture, but can’t be considered water. Although, to counter myself, I haven’t seen any Branded Oozes around.

Funny thing to mention oozes, seems they’re corrupted by Zhaitan – or at least they don’t fight with risen (same with elementals).

regfurby.4296:

And, like I said, crystallizing organic solids does not debunk the notion of liquid being crystallized.

And if you read my last post which you quote, I wasn’t using it alone as a means to debunk, but as one point among many to loosen the notion.

regfurby.4296:

I was referring to the Buzzing Crystals and Shocking Crystals (both junk items) in the loot table, not the crafting materials.

Then it may be better to use that than crystal cores. But my point still stands. And you probably should have corrected me in my misunderstanding when I mentioned charged cores, cuz I’ve always thought you meant the crafting material. But why Branded Air Elementals don’t have those, well, they’re not your branded crystals.

regfurby.4296:

Based on this excerpt alone (I really need to get the book…), the only thing I can infer is that Snaff was trying to grab Kralkatorrik’s attention by being as unnatural as possible in his mind.

Well, yes, that’s what he’s trying to do. What’s important to note is how he does it and why he goes about that method.

regfurby.4296:

The middle part is a bit garbled so I can’t make sense of it, but the end result I’m getting is that Kralkatorrik intended to destroy Snaff rather than become him.

Rather than corrupt him.* Basically, Snaff dived into Kralkatorrik’s mind and was met immediately by a “mental eye” and was nearly corrupted on the spot (but was saved by Zojja grabbing his attention and effectively pulling him out of Kralk’s mind); second time he goes in he’s more prepared and manages to delve deeper into Kralk’s mind without becoming corrupted, though Kralk’s still trying and as he’s trying Snaff realizes how Kralk’s mind works and compares it to a cyclone trying to fill its center. Upon this realization, Snaff figures out that to control Kralk’s body he must become Kralk’s opposite – and since Kralkatorrik cannot corrupt Snaff inside his mind, he decides to destroy what he cannot obtain.

regfurby.4296:

Regarding the concept of Perfection: by definition, perfection means taking only the best qualities (a selective process), as opposed to taking everything; unless you view what you are not as the ‘perfect’ being (or just better), trying to be what you are not is unrelated to perfection.

Therefore, I have to ask: was Kralkatorrik drawn to Snaff because Snaff represented something completely opposite to him, or because Snaff represented what he viewed to be better than him?

There’s actually two definitions of perfection – one is to be without flaw, the other is to be an absolute entity (that is, contain everything – by this definition, the Abrahamic God is the sole thing that’s “perfect” – though I find this definition to be paradoxical at face value).

What Kralk, to me (and yes, this is interpretation), seems to be doing is obtaining everything he can and destroying that which is harmful (the “flaws”) – so to him, Snaff would be a flaw because it is harmful to him. Another interpretation is just that he’s trying to obtain everything and destroy the rest so that he is/has “everything” (which would also lead to perfection in a view) – thus greed.

As to your question: the former – because Snaff was what Kralkatorrik was not. It was what Kralkatorrik lacked.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

regfurby.4296:

Even in layman terms, plasma exists as a state after gas. If the writer of Edge of Destiny also had the misconception that plasma comes after liquid and before gas, then it’s my mistake for bringing up this topic.

Funnily enough, I grew up (not literally, mind you) being told that plasma is a state between liquid and gas.

So not all laymen would say plasma is a state after gas, unless I just have “archaic” (read: out of date by 5 or so years) knowledge.

Both are correct, from a certain point of view, although regfurby is quite a bit more correct here. Some of the physical properties of plasma do fall between those of liquids and gases, but in terms of the sequence of states from low temperatures (bose-einstein condensates, solids) through to high temperatures, plasmas come after gases and represent the highest-temperature state that has been observed (there is a hypothesised hotter state, but to my knowledge has never been observed – the conditions it requires are pretty extreme).

Technically speaking, a plasma occurs when a significant proportion of the particles inside the sample are ionised, with the cutoff being at the point where enough ionisation has occurred for the sample to start showing the properties that distinguish a plasma from a gas (collective motion, conductivity, response to magnetic fields, and so on).

(To confuse the issue, it is possible to have a plasma within the crystal lattice of a solid, but it’s been a while since I’ve studied that in depth. And before anyone goes ‘Aha! Crystal-plasma connection!’, I’ll point out that ‘crystal’ here is a technical term that can cover a wide range of solids that may look nothing like the typical layman’s idea of a crystal.)

Sorry to de-rail things a tad, but I’m a bit confused about something. If im reading the last few pages right, the 6th edler dragon is supposedly useing the Dream (in the form of the Nightmare) to corrup sylvari and Pale Tree-related things. However, any description of the Dream seems to suggest that the Nightmare has always been a part of the Dream. I’ve never read anywhere that the Dream ever existed without nightmare. So to me this either means that the Dream was created by the 6th dragon itself, or that the nightmare has nothing to do with the elder dragon.

Off the top of my head, I don’t recall it ever being said the nightmare was always present – after all, it was years until Faolain became affected by the nightmare, and same goes for Cadeyrn – these were the first two (known) Nightmare Court members, and neither were affected by a nightmare in the Dream of Dreams.

There is, as far as I’m aware, no indication for how old either the Dream or the nightmare are.

Furthermore, nothing says the Dream of Dreams doesn’t predate sylvari or the Pale Tree – given the White Stag’s ability to be within the Dream like the Pale Tree, I would argue otherwise. Furthermore, given the White Stag’s affiliation with the DoD, I cannot see the Dream being created by the sixth dragon.

Since the speculation is the the 6th dragon inadvertently created the Pale Tree, yes the Dream has always had Nightmare, and in fact the Nightmare came FIRST, with a rogue champion (the Pale Tree) intruducing the Dream into the Nightmare landscape as an alternative to mandatory programming fitting in with the Dragon’s goals.

If you take note, everything in this thread actually argues that the Pale Tree is NOT a champion of the sixth Elder Dragon – rogue or otherwise. Because, quite frankly, nothing supports it but the vivid imaginations and desires of the playerbase who try to connect things that aren’t actually there. There is a tie between Mordremoth and the Nightmare and in turn the Nightmare Court, but not sylvari on a whole let alone the Pale Tree or the Dream of Dreams (directly).

Mordremoth is as connected to the Pale Tree as it is to the White Stag.

And nothing hints to the Dream of Dreams being a creation of the Pale Tree (in fact, she out right states that she did not create it and does not fully understand what it is! Which heavily implies that it predates her by a long shot).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Off the top of my head, I don’t recall it ever being said the nightmare was always present – after all, it was years until Faolain became affected by the nightmare, and same goes for Cadeyrn – these were the first two (known) Nightmare Court members, and neither were affected by a nightmare in the Dream of Dreams.

There is, as far as I’m aware, no indication for how old either the Dream or the nightmare are.

Furthermore, nothing says the Dream of Dreams doesn’t predate sylvari or the Pale Tree – given the White Stag’s ability to be within the Dream like the Pale Tree, I would argue otherwise. Furthermore, given the White Stag’s affiliation with the DoD, I cannot see the Dream being created by the sixth dragon.

O I would totally agree that the Dream predates the Sylvari. After all, the Pale Tree says she is only its caretaker (or something along those lines). And, the wiki states that “The Nightmare Court are sylvari who embrace the darkest parts of their nature” which to me suggests that the Nightmare doesn’t need to be a part of a Sylvari’s Dream at all for it to affect them. I think that Caderyn’s questioning of the Pale Tree is evidence enough to show that Nightmare Court-ish philosophy can be present without a seedling experienceing Nightmare in their Dream.

I may be totally biased, thought, because I am just hoping that the Nightmare has nothing to do with the elder dragons. I would rather see it as sort of an inherehant difficulty in being a Sylvari – they get the benefits of a collective conciousness, but have the risk of being drawn to darker things. If that makes sense at all lol I just think that, while your evidence is impressive linking Mordremoth to the Nightmare Court, it is all very circumstantial (and deep down I just don’t want to believe it haha)

Well what the wiki says there is the Nightmare Court’s belief and is, in fact, no different than saying “psychopaths are humans who embrace the darkest parts of their nature” truth be told. And all Cadeyrn’s questioning does is show that sylvari have free will and can disagree with the philosophy they grow up with. Hint: dragon minions don’t have free will (at best, champions have independent thinking, but they still are fanatically serving their dragon).

Personally, I don’t think either the Dream or the Nightmare are part of what makes a sylvari – especially given that there are those who can disconnect themselves from both cases (intentionally or not – Soundless for the former, Malyck for the latter), and even Nightmare Court eventually stop sending feelings to the Dream when they become twisted enough.

And yes, your view does make sense. Though the failing point is that non-sylvari can access the Dream (White Stag, PC’s via Pale Tree), thus it’s outright known to not be a “collective consciousness.”

I would like to throw out two things
First, although elder dragons have a preferred method of corrupting, they don’t seem to be completely limited to that, considering how Zhaitan was able to warp the minds of the still living in the Charr’s personal story.
And secondly, I think that Mordremoth is tied to disease in general, though primarily plant disease, which can be transferred by insects, which he also has an affinity for.

Just my two copper

I never said that they couldn’t corrupt otherwise, just that they hold a preference to such. And due to said preference, chances are you won’t see Primordus or his champions doing around corrupting Branded – but you might see Kralkatorrik and his champions going around corrupting Destroyers.

I have had a theory about the Sylvari and the possible 6th ED. After you create your character and go through the cinematic you go and talk to Caithe who says that something is corrupting the dream. When I first went through this I had simply assumed that this had something to do with the Nightmare Court, but after thinking about it you do not fight any Nightmare Court in the dream. Just their corrupted Fern Hounds and the plant dragon at the end. Also when you actually get to doing the story for about 10-15 levels or even before that you also find out that the Nightmare Court has had no luck with actually finding a way of corrupting the dream (well they find ways but always get stopped at the last second by your character).
This had lead me to believe that perhaps the corruption that you were fighting in your dream before you awake could have perhaps been the 6th ED attempting to awaken but that awakening gets put off until later due to you getting rid of the corruption. Does anyone agree with this?

Skykiller.3160:

When I first went through this I had simply assumed that this had something to do with the Nightmare Court, but after thinking about it you do not fight any Nightmare Court in the dream.

Well, that’s kind of to be expected. No sylvari can physically return to the Dream of Dreams – not without the help of the Pale Tree.

The Nightmare Court do spread the nightmare in the Dream of Dreams, but they themselves don’t return to the Dream of Dreams. So you wouldn’t find Nightmare Courtiers in the Dream – just the memories of them.

Skykiller.3160:

Also when you actually get to doing the story for about 10-15 levels or even before that you also find out that the Nightmare Court has had no luck with actually finding a way of corrupting the dream (well they find ways but always get stopped at the last second by your character).

Wrong – what you stop are their major movements to corrupt the Dream of Dreams. But they’re all still spreading Nightmare.

At least as far as we know – and by all means, they should be. By spreading negative emotions and painful memories among the sylvari, more darkness (nightmare) spreads into the Dream of Dreams.

Personally, I’d consider that there’s two kinds of nightmare:
The nightmare produced by negative emotions and painful memories – the kind spread by the Nightmare Court. And then the kind that instigated the Nightmare Court – the darkness that Faolain saw before joining the NC, for instance. The latter I personally think may be tied to Mordremoth (the sixth).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And its Mordremoth – the former thread on Mordramoth apparently typo’d the name. I would argue that Mordremoth is “plant” – except for the grubs, all of the beasts related to the Nightmare Court appear rather planty (the spiders have a more green and thorn-like appearance than most other spiders, should they too be corrupted). Thus, the six Elder Dragons’ elements would be (in order of awakening with Mordremoth last): Fire, Ice, Rot (I say rot and not undeath due to Explorer Hekja during Estate of Decay in which she is rotten and decayed mere minutes after death, even in EoD the newly risen… risen are instantly greyed and decayed in appearance), Water, Crystal, and Plant.

Hmm, it hit me while reading this that you can reclassify plant and rot/decay as “positive/life-giving” and “negative/life-taking”.

This in that plants growing are always seen as a sign of life returning to a place, tho too much plants can in essence suffocate a place.

And eventually everything succumbs to decay, being it animate or inanimate.

In essence then you have a variation of the classical elements, if you reclassify crystal as earth. Oh and Jormag would be air (freezing cold air) rather than ice.

Kralkatorrik – through the heavy use of lightning – shows more relation to air than Jormag’s ice does. However, I don’t think any of the six can be classified as air – Jormag’s about snow and ice, which is all frozen water, and not about cold wind; while the lightning is overall a show of how heavy magical concentrations seem to take form (alongside the heavy use of lightning with Kralkatorrik, there’s also lightning in heavily corrupted areas in Drakkar Spurs and Arah – furthermore, iirc, crackling static is used as a description for powerful magic in the novels).

There’s also a matter of colour. True lightning, in Guild Wars, has traditionally been primarily a yellow or blue-white colour, with the latter dominating in Guild Wars 2. The purple stuff that gets thrown around by mesmers… Spatial Surge is often described as purple lightning and some of the other mesmer stuff looks like purple versions of lightning projectiles, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen any of them trigger the ‘electrocuted’ death animation. Chaos Storm does, but that one’s just plain weird.

And what colour are most of the ‘lightning’ effects associated with Kralkatorrik’s minions? Purple. Thus, Kralkatorrik might not actually have any true affinity to lightning at all, but that the ‘purple lightning’ effects actually represent an affinity with the chaos magic of the mesmer..

I think it’s rather foolish to try associating the Elder Dragons with either the professions’ or the four schools’ field/effects of magic – seeing how they predate all of it, and effectively twist magic into their own kind of it, I doubt they’d be bound by such situations.

Purple just seems to be Kralkatorrik’s theme, rather than it being tied to mesmers/chaos magic (and certainly Denial). And Jeff Grubb explained this color relation as simply being “the color of evil” – and in fact, there are parts of Orrian corruption that glows purple. Just like Jormag’s color seems to be light blue. So I wouldn’t put too much thought into colors.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Kralkatorrik – through the heavy use of lightning – shows more relation to air than Jormag’s ice does. However, I don’t think any of the six can be classified as air – Jormag’s about snow and ice, which is all frozen water, and not about cold wind; while the lightning is overall a show of how heavy magical concentrations seem to take form (alongside the heavy use of lightning with Kralkatorrik, there’s also lightning in heavily corrupted areas in Drakkar Spurs and Arah – furthermore, iirc, crackling static is used as a description for powerful magic in the novels).

Lighting can be produced in many ways.

Thing is that after i wrote that bit i found this on the wiki, “Jormag is often referred to as being a living blizzard. It and some of its champions have powerful mental capabilities that alter their enemies’ way of thinking.”

A living blizzard? Alters ways of thinking? Perhaps i am reaching but the latter made me think about “whispers in the wind” promising power and fueling distrust.

The Elder Dragons are often referred to as various storms – Kralkatorrik is both called a hurricane and a sandstorm, which is just as air-related as a blizzard. I don’t see how, effectively, strong mesmerism is related to “whispers in the wind” or the like.

And I don’t think it’s ever said Jormag fuels distrust – though I may be wrong on that.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I think it’s rather foolish to try associating the Elder Dragons with either the professions’ or the four schools’ field/effects of magic – seeing how they predate all of it, and effectively twist magic into their own kind of it, I doubt they’d be bound by such situations.

Purple just seems to be Kralkatorrik’s theme, rather than it being tied to mesmers/chaos magic (and certainly Denial). And Jeff Grubb explained this color relation as simply being “the color of evil” – and in fact, there are parts of Orrian corruption that glows purple. Just like Jormag’s color seems to be light blue. So I wouldn’t put too much thought into colors.

While the dragons clearly operate by their own rules rather than those enforced by the Bloodstones, each clearly does have certain areas of magic that it has an affinity for – Primordus fire, Jormag ice, and so on. Its questionable how much of this is a limitation on what the dragon can do and how much is simply preference, but each dragon clearly has its specialty.

One of the the Branded Human varieties shows a beam attack identical in appearance to one that you yourself has identified as mesmer-like. There is also precedent – in Spatial Surge and similar skills – for the chaos magic of mesmers to resemble lightning without actually being lightning, being a discharge of magical energy rather than electricity. Thus, it seems reasonable to presume that the purple lightning effects seen by the Branded and employed by Kralkatorrik is not true lightning, but an energy akin to that used by mesmers.

This does not mean, of course, that Kralkatorrik can be thought of as the ‘mesmer dragon’ – since the magic of dragons is independant of the Bloodstones. The crystal side of Kralkatorrik’s powers, for instance, is clearly a better fit to elementalism than mesmerism, and as far as I know none of Kralkatorrik’s minons, save for Glint, have demonstrated a talent for illusions, thought manipulation, or any of the other general mind-catenery that mesmers are known for.

(note: responding as I’m reading through your post)
The Branded have skills that are similar to mesmer attacks, true, though elementalist attacks as well. However, just as there are icebrood kodan who wield torches, I don’t think their attacks are solely from Kralkatorrik’s domain – but rather from what they once were, just geared towards Kralkatorrik’s domain of purpleness (just as the Risen use green water attacks instead of standard blue).

Given how Zhaitan’s strongest minions gear towards mesmerism alongside necromancy and elementalism, I’m guessing that the Elder Dragons overall just enjoy mindscrew magics – after all, every single dragon does twist the mind of those they corrupt – and they just add other fields of general magical directions (element magic, death magic, etc.) based on their own preference.

Primordus is the only active dragon that hasn’t shown mesmer-like abilities (directly or indirectly), but that’s probably due to how he doesn’t corrupt living beings (at the moment).

On the topic of electricity and crystals:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectricity

Speaking as a physicist, electricity can be related to everything if you look hard enough – electrical forces are directly or indirectly responsible for everything that most people experience in their day-to-day lives apart from the pull of gravity. Trust me when I say that I could connect any of the dragons to electricity, and some of the connections would be less tenuous than a property of some crystalline materials – especially since the technical definition of ‘crystalline’ covers multiple things that most people wouldn’t regard as crystals.

@Konig: There are mesmer skills that appear as if they could be elementalist skills if not purple as well. The point is, I think there is reasonable doubt on whether any of that ‘lightning’ is actually electrical in nature.

In Zhaitan’s case… I’d question how much of his propensity for mesmerism comes from him, or whether it’s a case of denial magics being favoured by the Orrian elite. He certainly does seem to enjoy the mindscrew in general, though.

Well I never really wanted to claim it was elemental lightning – I merely stated that’s the closest thing with which any dragon can be related to air/wind/sky.

Regarding the Risen and mesmerism – I think it’s just a case of it being the best befitting magic for the risen personality of using psychological warfare, rather than any propensity of either the risen pre-corruption or of Zhaitan himself (Zhaitan uses nothing which is mesmer-like, but does use necromancer-like skills so I doubt Zhaitan himself is favorable to mesmerism).

Though again, every dragon has some degree of mind manipulating magic. It’s the very core behind what their minions are: creatures/things transformed using mind alterations and elemental additions. Effectively, every single Elder Dragon is an E/Me – Zhaitan’s just /N tacked on top.

Dunno, Zhaitan showed very little interest in over recruitment of the living and instead reanimates their remains.

Jormag however seems to have this as a theme as seen with the Sons.

Primordius makes his own creatures from fire and magma.

And what we have seen of kralkatorrik is a virtually instant conversion of living beings into crystalline recreations of themselves.

Bubbles and “Jung” we know little about so far, tho if speculations are accurate it may well be that the latter will in essence grow his forces similarly to what the Pale Tree do with Sylvari.

Yeah, I kinda wanna say that Zhaitan has about as much of a knack for mesmerism as any other necromancer does. Sure he is able to control his minions, but so is any necromancer, and it is obvious via Palawa Joko that necromancers can enforce a will on those they control, soul or no soul.

Dunno why it slipped my mind before, but Zhaitan was strong enough to not only animate the remains but pull the spirit back into it and bend it too his will. So the mindscrew could simply be a side effect of the spirits having been accomplished mesmers in their lifetime.

Which is obviously visible in the fact that Lyssa’s servants do a lot of the mindscrewing.

digiowl.9620:

Dunno, Zhaitan showed very little interest in over recruitment of the living and instead reanimates their remains.

Jormag however seems to have this as a theme as seen with the Sons.

Primordius makes his own creatures from fire and magma.

And what we have seen of kralkatorrik is a virtually instant conversion of living beings into crystalline recreations of themselves.

Bubbles and “Jung” we know little about so far, tho if speculations are accurate it may well be that the latter will in essence grow his forces similarly to what the Pale Tree do with Sylvari.

1. If you’ve seen my posts on the matter in the past, you’ll know that I hold the interpretation that the Elder Dragons hold a preference on what they corrupt. Zhaitan prefers corrupting corpses – but as shown by Kellach in the human storyline, Zhaitan’s magic can corrupt living beings.
2. Jormag’s known to corrupt corpses too (see Edge of Destiny novel, chapter 1), but he shows a preference for corrupting individuals who are seeking power of their own accord (as opposed to enforcing slavery via corruption, Pact members in Frostgorge note how he seems to corrupt those who go to him for power first and foremost).

So what I’ve said is not really contradicted by your post – rather, it’s exactly alongside what you said.

@Narcemus: However, Zhaitan does more than simply “able to control his minions” like any standard necromancer or lich lord. Zhaitan makes his minions desire to follow him – this is what I was referring to with Zhaitan and the Elder Dragons having mind manipulation in their actions – whereas standard necromancers and two of the three known liches command either mindless undead that seem to naturally follow the strongest nearby undead (Khilbron), or rule through fear (Joko).

Well, the OP’s theory on the sixth Elder Dragon seems good to me, I hope they’d actually take that and use it for whenever we get to dealing with the sixth dragon. Hey! Quit arguing people..this is about the sixth dragon, not how exactly the other dragons corrupt.