Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.
On the psychology of the Elder Dragons
I’ve been doing this topic as research since release, slowly improving it as we got information. I was intending to go over it again next week with the new knowledge from E5 for when I get home and could quote everything I needed with screenshots.
A light version of my latest research notes can be found here, though my views of Mordremoth have changed – I do think we have a definitive view of his persona and goals now.
To summarize my current view:
Zhaitan views itself as a leader, seeks to rule the world, and promises his minions immortality and reunion with loved ones through undeath. This is most clearly evident in the novel Sea of Sorrows – among other select quotes that are in the link above.
Jormag is a manipulator who seeks to be the top dog in a ‘gang’ or ‘nation’ of only the strongest; he seems to have a focus on the old addage of ‘survival of the fittest’ if you would – and he wants the fittest to worship him as their leader. Anet often calls the Elder Dragons on a whole an “apex predator” – Jormag takes this description literally, it seems, in wanting to be exactly what the Sons of Svanir preach him to be (perhaps because this is what he and his champions told them). Even outside of the Sons of Svanir, we see mentions of power amongst his minions, and how do the Sons of Svanir teach recruits? Hunt icebrood. Sons of Svanir are also known to kill female icebrood, just for being females – and Jormag’s stated to simply not care about it. I suspect he doesn’t care for a mentality akin to “if they can be killed off, then they’re weak and I don’t need weaklings.”
One thing on Jormag I haven’t worked out is the mentions of EoD about his “intense hatred” – one could argue that his hatred is towards the weak or those not under his command.
Kralkatorrik seems to be vain like Jormag, but in a different meaning. He seems to “become” everything. This mostly comes from Edge of Destiny when Snaff enters his mind, but he description is of a storm that is ever trying to consume the eye of the storm, attempting to destroy and consume anything the storm is not. And the harder it is for Kralkatorrik to destroy/consume what he is not, the more he hates it and the more he wants to destroy/consume it.
This would explain Kralkatorrik’s drive to kill Glint: “what I cannot have, no one can” seems to be an adpt description of his thoughts. And Glint was no longer his, so no one can have her.
Primordus we can only go after the actions his minions do. Unlike all other dragons – except possibly the DSD – Primordus excludes corruption of living beings by choice. He can corrupt – we know this, and we know how he would – but he never once does; not even the Destroyer Queen seems to be a corrupted being, despite common belief because it was the first of two possibilities presented by the mentor. His minions are aptly named destroyers for that is what they do: they destroy all life. When the Great Destroyer rose, his role was not only to wake Primordus early, but to prepare the way for his coming – and he was to do this by wiping out all surface life. And in this is where I get his motivation: genocide of living beings.
Mordremoth we only recently got real hints into his motivations, persona, and goal. In the second instance of E5 – the Pact instance – the Masters tell us some of Aerin’s ravings on the ship: talking about destroying the world (to quote: “He said odd things about believing the world must be destroyed. "). This matches Scarlet Briar’s vision of “death, destruction, and destiny”. Ogden in the final instance of Hidden Arcana, says he views Mordremoth as ‘the most destructive of the Elder Dragons’. So similar to Primordus, Mordremoth seems to seek destruction – but unlike Primordus whom seems to only seek the destruction of life, Mordremoth seems to seek the destruction of the world.
The DSD is completely unknown. We only know he created minions out of water and drove out the underwater races.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Zhaitan obviously set the organization, he picked the former rulers to be his eyes and overseers. He chose the former captains to be his navy commanders. Many of the important Risen members were also famous before their death.
Unlike other dragons, he took the minion’s status before their death quite seriously to set a powerful nation based on human nation’s statue. They used their intelligence and knowledge to expand the dragon’s influence. The only major difference is that all of them serve him without a question. He relied living’s intelligence to rule.
Because of this, when many of his champions were defeated, the source was cleansed and many minions were killed, he was greatly weakened and got beaten so easily.
Jormag mostly wanted to be “worshiped”, he used tricks to lure mortals to worship him and feed him with power. Even his greatest champion, the Dragonspawn, was a shaman and could summon his power. Unlike Zhaitan, he prefer to let powerful individuals, not to be easily turned into Icebrood. The Icebrood weren’t that organized compare to Zhaitan’s Risen. Nor do they have that much difference between individuals.
But at the same time, he does not really give his worshipers that much importance. Other than the nornbear, who existed before his awakening, the other known champions were all its own creation.
“This mostly comes from Edge of Destiny when Snaff enters his mind, but he description is of a storm that is ever trying to consume the eye of the storm, attempting to destroy and consume anything the storm is not. And the harder it is for Kralkatorrik to destroy/consume what he is not, the more he hates it and the more he wants to destroy/consume it.”
I think this could apply to all Elder Dragons, not just Kralk. It fits their behavior. It fits the way all the dragons corrupt and consume. It fits the Jotun description of the Elder Dragons as Devourers.
Not really, Stooperdale, as this differs from the others. The difference is not in consume or destroy, but why consume or destroy.
The short of my interpretation:
- Zhaitan seeks to rule as a leader.
- Jormag seeks to be worshipped.
- Kralkatorrik seeks to own.
- Mordremoth seeks to destroy.
- Primordus seeks to kill.
For Jormag and Zhaitan, destroying is merely eliminating opposition.
For Mordremoth, corruption is just a means to an end (annihilation).
For Kralkatorrik, corruption is the goal, destroying is just so there is nothing that is not corrupted (a means to an end).
For Primordus, both is the goal.
Via my interpretation at least.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Why consume and destroy? I suspect that they are devourers. Their primary instinct, above all else, is to devour. Nothing precedes that. They only rest when they are sated.
Sure, that’s in their nature, but they all show evidences of using their nature for ulterior motives.
To me, your argument is akin to taking a fat aristocrat that has overtaxed his people for food as “well, it’s in his nature to eat”.
Their nature is balancing magic. But this doesn’t necessarily mean corruption and destruction is, but even if it is, they show ulterior motives that often utilize their corrupting and destroying things.
But as the world’s balancers as magic, I doubt that their nature is such evilness. And yes, they are evil – even if they are a ‘necessary evil’. They have sentience and show personality.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
The Deep Sea Dragon awoke before Jormag, it might be waiting for something to happen. Maybe it spent some efforts to make itself a secret, including destroy/hide the knowledge about itself.
Their nature is balancing magic.
I wouldn’t exactly say that. I’d say that their nature is to devour magic and some external balance might happen when they do so.
The Deep Sea Dragon awoke before Jormag, it might be waiting for something to happen. Maybe it spent some efforts to make itself a secret, including destroy/hide the knowledge about itself.
This is only theory. We don’t know what the order of the orbs shining means, really.
ALL lore facts point to the DSD waking up 50 years prior to the game, not between Primordus and Jormag’s awakening. Only that cinematic points to that, so it’s one possible hint versus three or so.
Their nature is balancing magic.
I wouldn’t exactly say that. I’d say that their nature is to devour magic and some external balance might happen when they do so.
To quote Angel McCoy, though I loath the interview it comes from:
“Magic is the lifeblood of Tyria. The entire world is infused with it, and it flows through everything via ley lines that criss-cross the planet.
The natural role of the dragons is to keep this magic balanced. From time to time, in the long history of the world, the dragons have awoken and begun to draw the world’s magic into themselves, reducing the level of magic flowing through the ley lines.”
http://esprits-dorr.fr/node/261
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
It clearly was showing the order of the dragons’ awakening.
This might mean nothing but it also might give insight. The gold orb in Orr is slowly turning everything around it to gold. I think it’s pretty likley that somehow that orb is linked to Kralkatorrik. The thing is though, it’s not actual gold. There are elementals around that have been transformed, and these aren’t gold elementals, they’re pyrite elementals. Fool’s gold. The orb transforms things to have the illusion of beauty and wealth, but its just a mask.
Maybe Kralkatorrik isn’t trying to make everything “itself” so much as its own corrupted ideal of beauty. i.e. a really twisted aspect of Lyssa.
It clearly was showing the order of the dragons’ awakening.
Really? Because there is more than one interpretation of that no-context vision. So clearly, it isn’t clear in what it means.
You’re trying to shove your speculation as fact.
It could be order of strength, awakening, age, or a dozen other things.
Aside from the vision, all things point to the Deep Sea Dragon being active only 50 years prior to Zhaitan’s fall. Not 150+ years. Both the Krait and the DSD are stated to have lived in the deepest part of the ocean – meaning the Krait lived on top of the DSD, so when they were pushed out – ~50 years ago – that would be the earliest activity of the DSD.
This might mean nothing but it also might give insight. The gold orb in Orr is slowly turning everything around it to gold. I think it’s pretty likley that somehow that orb is linked to Kralkatorrik. The thing is though, it’s not actual gold. There are elementals around that have been transformed, and these aren’t gold elementals, they’re pyrite elementals. Fool’s gold. The orb transforms things to have the illusion of beauty and wealth, but its just a mask.
Maybe Kralkatorrik isn’t trying to make everything “itself” so much as its own corrupted ideal of beauty. i.e. a really twisted aspect of Lyssa.
Kralkatorrik isn’t linked to gold, and the golem that is piloted by an Inquest asura when powered by the orb’s magic chants ‘must protect Orr’ – not very Elder Dragon like.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Oh am I imagining all the gold bubbles and melted gold?
Oh am I imagining all the gold bubbles and melted gold?
Care to share a link/source/picture of kralkatorrik having control over gold? I have honestly not seen a single sign of that. Everything of kralkatorrik ahs allways been purple roccks and crystal, the only thing gold about him is apparantly his breath, but the color gold and the material gold are not quite the same thing.
Mordremoth we only recently got real hints into his motivations, persona, and goal. In the second instance of E5 – the Pact instance – the Masters tell us some of Aerin’s ravings on the ship: talking about destroying the world (to quote: “He said odd things about believing the world must be destroyed. "). This matches Scarlet Briar’s vision of “death, destruction, and destiny”. Ogden in the final instance of Hidden Arcana, says he views Mordremoth as ‘the most destructive of the Elder Dragons’. So similar to Primordus, Mordremoth seems to seek destruction – but unlike Primordus whom seems to only seek the destruction of life, Mordremoth seems to seek the destruction of the world.
This is very interesting, because it led me to a rather disturbing thought: what if Mordremoth is interested in destroying everything basically because it is tired?
I mean, we have learned that the ED rise and go back to slumber periodically according to the magic flow in the world; they act as some sort of magic buffer, they apparently have no other purpose. Like WEAPON (sorta) in the Final Fantasy VII world.
So, what if Mordremoth became weary of that? Of perpetuating that cycle? What if it just wants it to be over, and to do that, it must destroy ALL?
Really? Because there is more than one interpretation of that no-context vision. So clearly, it isn’t clear in what it means.
You’re trying to shove your speculation as fact.
It could be order of strength, awakening, age, or a dozen other things.
Aside from the vision, all things point to the Deep Sea Dragon being active only 50 years prior to Zhaitan’s fall. Not 150+ years. Both the Krait and the DSD are stated to have lived in the deepest part of the ocean – meaning the Krait lived on top of the DSD, so when they were pushed out – ~50 years ago – that would be the earliest activity of the DSD.
There were Krait, a bunch of them in GW1. So it’s not like they have never been in the surface. The Ocean is very huge so the dragon might not have come to their territory until 50 years ago, they might also want to live in the upper floor of the ocean until Zhaitan’s navy occupied the sea. The karka came to the surface only for a while, does it mean the Deep Sea Dragon only woke for a little while? No. Obviously the Deep Sea Dragon had awoke long ago but only invaded their territory recently.
(edited by Slowpokeking.8720)
There were also a few similarities between Abaddon and DSD. Both has the domain of water. The Unending Ocean was once ruled by the Margonite. Both of them were the most mysterious of the six for different reason. Abaddon also was the god of secret.
As far as I know, Margonites ruled the Crystal Sea.
As far as I know, Margonites ruled the Crystal Sea.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unending_Ocean
Over a thousand years ago, the Margonites are said to have ruled the Unending Ocean until they lost their humanity.
Oh am I imagining all the gold bubbles and melted gold?
Given that those things are all black… Yes.
There were Krait, a bunch of them in GW1. So it’s not like they have never been in the surface. The Ocean is very huge so the dragon might not have come to their territory until 50 years ago, they might also want to live in the upper floor of the ocean until Zhaitan’s navy occupied the sea. The karka came to the surface only for a while, does it mean the Deep Sea Dragon only woke for a little while? No. Obviously the Deep Sea Dragon had awoke long ago but only invaded their territory recently.
The krait having been to the surface before is irrelevant.
There cannot bot two deepest parts if the ocean. “deepest” means the singular most deep. Both are said to have been at the deepest parts of the ocean.
An exodus only needs to occur once, so what purpose does that comment on karka have? Another irrelevant fact. Norn only fled Jormag for a little while, does that mean Jormag was awake for only a little while?
As far as I know, Margonites ruled the Crystal Sea.
Both The Crystal Sea and parts if the Unending Ocean. Most likely the part between Cantha and Tyria – dubbed the Clashing Seas.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
I stand corrected, and what I knew wasn’t very far, then.
Thanks.
The krait having been to the surface before is irrelevant.
There cannot bot two deepest parts if the ocean. “deepest” means the singular most deep. Both are said to have been at the deepest parts of the ocean.
An exodus only needs to occur once, so what purpose does that comment on karka have? Another irrelevant fact. Norn only fled Jormag for a little while, does that mean Jormag was awake for only a little while?
So it showed a few of them already came to the surface long ago.
“and the invasion of the krait, who formerly lived in the deepest trenches of the Unending Ocean, into quaggan lands 50 years ago coincide with the approximate awakening of this dragon.”
It’s not saying a single deepest place, but a few very deep trenches, it doesn’t mean DSD and the krait lived in the same place.
It showed the DSD didn’t affect all the creatures right after its awakening since the Ocean is very huge. It only affected them after it invaded their territory. So the time of the krait’s invasion might not accurately match its awakening time. Just like Jormag’s awakening didn’t affect Krytan people for a long while.
So it showed a few of them already came to the surface long ago.
And what does the existence of raiding parties (for that is what krait lore dubs them – source ) have to do with a confirmed (source – note Angel here points to a wiki page which has been altered sense, here is the version she linked to) case of the krait fleeing their home due to the DSD?
It’s not saying a single deepest place, but a few very deep trenches, it doesn’t mean DSD and the krait lived in the same place.
False. It says the deepest trentches. Aka the deepest trentches in the ocean. So unless the DSD awoke in an abyssal plain that would be deeper than the trenches, it would be at those deepest trenches.
It showed the DSD didn’t affect all the creatures right after its awakening since the Ocean is very huge. It only affected them after it invaded their territory. So the time of the krait’s invasion might not accurately match its awakening time. Just like Jormag’s awakening didn’t affect Krytan people for a long while.
Jormag didn’t awake in Kryta. Norn were forced out in ~4 years after Jormag’s awakening. Deepest trenches is where both were.
Furthermore, it should be noted that Jeff Grubb confirmed that the Elder Dragons awoke approximately every 50 years. Per the aforelinked post by Angel McCoy, the ~50 years has a wiggle room of +/- up to 15 years. So between 35 and 65 years can pass between each awakening. Between Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik is 101 years. Between Primordus and Jormag is 45 years.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
So they already moved to their surface at that time.
False. It says the deepest trentches. Aka the deepest trentches in the ocean. So unless the DSD awoke in an abyssal plain that would be deeper than the trenches, it would be at those deepest trenches.
It said a few very deep trenches. It’s not a single place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanic_trench#Deepest_oceanic_trenches
They were far away from each other and only one is the deepest. Obviously the Kraits lived in a few trenches of the Ocean that were not very far away.
Also where is the source of the location of DSD’s awakening?
Jormag didn’t awake in Kryta. Norn were forced out in ~4 years after Jormag’s awakening. Deepest trenches is where both were.
And DSD might not awake in the same place with the Krait, the Ocean is a even bigger place than the whole Tyria.
Furthermore, it should be noted that Jeff Grubb confirmed that the Elder Dragons awoke approximately every 50 years. Per the aforelinked post by Angel McCoy, the ~50 years has a wiggle room of +/- up to 15 years. So between 35 and 65 years can pass between each awakening. Between Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik is 101 years. Between Primordus and Jormag is 45 years.
Wrong, Mordemoth woke only 7 years after Kralkatorrik. Also, Primordus originally was going to wake in 1078, around 90 years before Jormag’s rise.
(edited by Slowpokeking.8720)
Wrong, Mordemoth woke only 2 years after Kralkatorrik. Also, Primordus originally was going to wake in 1078, around 90 years before Jormag’s rise.
You seem to have missed the entirety of season 1 so let me put it short, Scarlet FORCED Mordremoths awakening. You’re welcome
Wrong, Mordemoth woke only 7 years after Kralkatorrik. Also, Primordus originally was going to wake in 1078, around 90 years before Jormag’s rise.
You seem to have missed the entirety of season 1 so let me put it short, Scarlet FORCED Mordremoths awakening. You’re welcome
I know that, if you count this in, then our forces pushed back Primordus’s awakening by 42 years. Jormag’s rise was also accelerated by its worshipers. If we put mortal’s influence away, Primordus and Jormag’s rise would have a huge gap for at least 100 years or more.
Wrong, Mordemoth woke only 7 years after Kralkatorrik. Also, Primordus originally was going to wake in 1078, around 90 years before Jormag’s rise.
You seem to have missed the entirety of season 1 so let me put it short, Scarlet FORCED Mordremoths awakening. You’re welcome
I know that, if you count this in, then our forces pushed back Primordus’s awakening by 42 years. Jormag’s rise was also accelerated by its worshipers. If we put mortal’s influence away, Primordus and Jormag’s rise would have a huge gap for at least 100 years or more.
Might i ask for a source that suggest that Jormag’s awakening was affiliated by his worshippers?
Interestingly, if we put DSD’s awakening beside these two’s original awakening time, then it fills the gap of “each 50 years”.
Might i ask for a source that suggest that Jormag’s awakening was affiliated by his worshippers?
from EoD
“For the next hundred fifty years, the voice seduced more norn, and they joined the cult, becoming the Sons of Svanir. They believed they were drawing upon the ancient voice, but in fact it was drawing upon them, gaining the power to rise.”
So they already moved to their surface at that time.
Do you not know the meaning of “raiding party”?
They came, they raided, and they leave.
“Equally comfortable above and below the water, the krait have never felt truly threatened by any of the land-dwelling races of Tyria. Perhaps that is why they have not bothered to communicate with other races. They have no need of anything land-dwellers can give them, other than slaves for their use and sacrifices for their rituals. However, the krait can seize those for themselves—with ruthless efficiency.”
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadows_in_the_Water_%E2%80%93_The_Krait
Their exodus ~50 years prior to the game is different. The entire race fled their home – their first loss in known krait history. And an utter defeat it was. This was not just raiding to seize land-made tools and slaves, it was becoming refugees.
It said a few very deep trenches. It’s not a single place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanic_trench#Deepest_oceanic_trenches
They were far away from each other and only one is the deepest. Obviously the Kraits lived in a few trenches of the Ocean that were not very far away.
You quoted it yourself, and it said “deepest trenches”. Meaning there is no trench deeper than where they lived.
Nothing says that the Unending Ocean’s deepest trenches are spread far apart – and nothing says that, even if they were, the krait didn’t live that widespread.
Also where is the source of the location of DSD’s awakening?
The Movement of the World.
“In the deepest waters of the sea, another dragon breathed, twisting the waters themselves into tentacled horrors that rose from every lake and river of the land.”
Deepest waters of the sea; and not the Sea of Sorrows – so what sea, perhaps the Clashing Seas (between Tyria and Cantha)?
Deepest trenches of the Unending Ocean – and where in the Unending Ocean, perhaps where they can be found by human ships: between Tyria and Cantha (the Clashing Seas)?
Deepest. Same general location.
And DSD might not awake in the same place with the Krait, the Ocean is a even bigger place than the whole Tyria.
But there is only one ‘deepest’.
Just as there is only one ‘widest plain’ and only one ‘tallest mountain’. There is only one ‘deepest trench’.
Wrong, Mordemoth woke only 7 years after Kralkatorrik. Also, Primordus originally was going to wake in 1078, around 90 years before Jormag’s rise.
I know that, if you count this in, then our forces pushed back Primordus’s awakening by 42 years. Jormag’s rise was also accelerated by its worshipers. If we put mortal’s influence away, Primordus and Jormag’s rise would have a huge gap for at least 100 years or more.
Mordremoth was not yet to awaken, as pointed out by dsslive.
Similarly, Primordus was not yet to awaken in 1078 AE – keep in mind that the Great Destroyer was an alarm clock. The Great Destroyer’s death left it to wake when it was meant to.
In all honesty, Jormag’s rise being pushed forward is the best argument you’ve yet to give. But who’s to say how soon it was risen? Zhaitan was still awoken 54 years after Jormag.
The best possibility for your argument would be “Jormag’s early awakening caused Zhaitan to also awaken sooner, but not Kralkatorrik” or “Zhaitan had an unknown-to-us means of waking early that, like Jormag, was not stopped.” Or even, if you’re desperate, “Glint caused Kralkatorrik to wake up late, and Mordremoth woke up when he was supposed to, relatively.” But in all honesty, this is no different than saying “Balthazar and Grenth share mothers.”
Though nothing says that Jormag rose early, and if he did, how early, in all honesty, given the fact that like Primordus, Jormag had at least one champion killed: Svanir.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
You quoted it yourself, and it said “deepest trenches”. Meaning there is no trench deeper than where they lived.
Nothing says that the Unending Ocean’s deepest trenches are spread far apart – and nothing says that, even if they were, the krait didn’t live that widespread.
But there is only one ‘deepest’.
Just as there is only one ‘widest plain’ and only one ‘tallest mountain’. There is only one ‘deepest trench’.
Deepest trenches of the Unending Ocean – and where in the Unending Ocean, perhaps where they can be found by human ships: between Tyria and Cantha (the Clashing Seas)?
Deepest. Same general location.
No, it means a few trenches like I linked. Like I listed, they were very far way from each other. It makes no sense if the Krait lived that far away from each other, so obviously they lived in a few of the trenches but not all of these trenches and DSD woke in a different place. Also, these trenches might not be the deepest place. Even if a few of the tribes do live near, DSD could have simply annihilated the ones near it.
Mordremoth was not yet to awaken, as pointed out by dsslive.
It did awake.
Similarly, Primordus was not yet to awaken in 1078 AE – keep in mind that the Great Destroyer was an alarm clock. The Great Destroyer’s death left it to wake when it was meant to.
Are you denying the fact? REALLY?
The Movement of the World
Primordus was the first of the ancient dragons to awaken, calling his servants from their slumber. With his breath, he twisted earth and stone, shaping creatures and giving them life. Although the death of the Great Destroyer, his most powerful general, set back the dragon’s awakening by two generations, Primordus once again rose to create ever more minions far beneath the ground. To this day, he continues to spread his power throughout the deep caverns beneath Tyria.
The so called “Natural 50 years agenda” breaks immediately with this fact.
Seriously, I don’t think you don’t know this since you even checked this article when writing your thread, but simply because you want to ignore it to support you point.
Since Jormag was draining on many Norn worshipers for around 90 years and spent a lot on the effort, it could have let it woke earlier for many years. But that does not matter really. With Primordus’ original timer being set at 1078, there was at least a 90 years gap(maybe 100 years if Jormag hadn’t drained power from others), which breaks the “50 years” cycle unless we put a dragon between them.
No, it means a few trenches like I linked. Like I listed, they were very far way from each other. It makes no sense if the Krait lived that far away from each other, so obviously they lived in a few of the trenches but not all of these trenches and DSD woke in a different place. Also, these trenches might not be the deepest place. Even if a few of the tribes do live near, DSD could have simply annihilated the ones near it.
Ignoring the fact that you linked Earth’s geography, you’d be right:
it would make little sense (though not no sense) if the krait lived that far away.
But you see, they don’t live in all the deep trenches.
They live in THE deepest trenches.
Difference.
You say that the DSD woke elsewhere, but you have no proof. You’re spouting unsupported conjectures.
Mordremoth was not yet to awaken, as pointed out by dsslive.
It did awake.
Forcefully. At a time it was not going to awake if not for Scarlet Briar giving Mordremoth one of the biggest power surge on Tyria.
It would be like giving a sleeping person a shock treatment to startle them awake three hours before their alarm went off.
Are you denying the fact? REALLY?
The Movement of the World
Primordus was the first of the ancient dragons to awaken, calling his servants from their slumber. With his breath, he twisted earth and stone, shaping creatures and giving them life. Although the death of the Great Destroyer, his most powerful general, set back the dragon’s awakening by two generations, Primordus once again rose to create ever more minions far beneath the ground. To this day, he continues to spread his power throughout the deep caverns beneath Tyria.
The so called “Natural 50 years agenda” breaks immediately with this fact.
Seriously, I don’t think you don’t know this since you even checked this article when writing your thread, but simply because you want to ignore it to support you point.
I am not denying anything.
In an interview after The Movement of the World’s release to the public, the Great Destroyer was explained to have been acting as an alarm clock for Primordus, to wake him early, and to prepare the way for Primordus’ coming by wiping out all life on the surface.
What I said was not contradicted by that article. We’re, in fact, saying the same thing:
Killing the Great Destroyer pushed back the awakening of Primordus that the Great Destroyer would have caused.
But the interview explained further: the Great Destroyer was trying to wake Primordus up early. Thus by killing him, rather than “putting Primordus back to sleep when he should have woke up” it was more that “we hit the snooze button on the alarm clock (Great Destroyer) before Primordus would wake up to the alarm clock, leaving him to wake up on his own, naturally.”
I deny nothing.
Since Jormag was draining on many Norn worshipers for around 90 years and spent a lot on the effort, it could have let it woke earlier for many years. But that does not matter really. With Primordus’ original timer being set at 1078, there was at least a 90 years gap(maybe 100 years if Jormag hadn’t drained power from others), which breaks the “50 years” cycle unless we put a dragon between them.
The timer which was a sooner-than-should be timer. Just like Mordremoth.
And where do you get 90 years from, exactly? Because nothing says that the Sons of Svanir came into existence shortly after Svanir’s death. It likely took quite some time for that to happen. And the Sons of Svanir has been stated to be relatively small until recently. How small would it have been when formed, and how much magic could they really take from the Sons of Svanir before they grew?
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Ignoring the fact that you linked Earth’s geography, you’d be right:
it would make little sense (though not no sense) if the krait lived that far away.
But you see, they don’t live in all the deep trenches.
They live in THE deepest trenches.
Difference.
You say that the DSD woke elsewhere, but you have no proof. You’re spouting unsupported conjectures.
What fact? They could live in a few of the trenches but not all of them, and the ones near the dragon could have been killed.
Forcefully. At a time it was not going to awake if not for Scarlet Briar giving Mordremoth one of the biggest power surge on Tyria.
It would be like giving a sleeping person a shock treatment to startle them awake three hours before their alarm went off.
No, it gave the dragon magic so it could rise. Same with Primordus lost its power.
I am not denying anything.
In an interview after The Movement of the World’s release to the public, the Great Destroyer was explained to have been acting as an alarm clock for Primordus, to wake him early, and to prepare the way for Primordus’ coming by wiping out all life on the surface.
What I said was not contradicted by that article. We’re, in fact, saying the same thing:
Killing the Great Destroyer pushed back the awakening of Primordus that the Great Destroyer would have caused.
But the interview explained further: the Great Destroyer was trying to wake Primordus up early. Thus by killing him, rather than “putting Primordus back to sleep when he should have woke up” it was more that “we hit the snooze button on the alarm clock (Great Destroyer) before Primordus would wake up to the alarm clock, leaving him to wake up on his own, naturally.”
I deny nothing.
Where does this nonsense "interview " come from?
Using the alarm clock is a bad example. The dragons do not truly “awake” unless it had enough power. We can see the whole process of Jormag’s awakening. Same with Mord, it woke because a lot of magic was sent to it. Primordus was pushed back simply because it didn’t gain, but lost power due to the death of its champion.
The timer which was a sooner-than-should be timer. Just like Mordremoth.
And where do you get 90 years from, exactly? Because nothing says that the Sons of Svanir came into existence shortly after Svanir’s death. It likely took quite some time for that to happen. And the Sons of Svanir has been stated to be relatively small until recently. How small would it have been when formed, and how much magic could they really take from the Sons of Svanir before they grew?
“For the next hundred fifty years, the voice seduced more norn, and they joined the cult, becoming the Sons of Svanir. They believed they were drawing upon the ancient voice, but in fact it was drawing upon them, gaining the power to rise.”
It lasted for a long while for sure, since the dragons don’t care about just a few years and Jormag continue to spend some effort to gather these Norn, it could have given him a big amount, 5-10 years early at least.
(edited by Slowpokeking.8720)
What fact? They could live in a few of the trenches but not all of them, and the ones near the dragon could have been killed.
Or all of them were near the dragon, and they were forced into a flee or die scenario.
No, it gave the dragon magic so it could rise. Same with Primordus lost its power.
Exactly what I was saying. You just excluding that it rose early.
Where does this nonsense "interview " come from?
Using the alarm clock is a bad example. The dragons do not truly “awake” unless it had enough power. We can see the whole process of Jormag’s awakening. Same with Mord, it woke because a lot of magic was sent to it. Primordus was pushed back simply because it didn’t gain, but lost power due to the death of its champion.
Unfortunately, it is a very old interview and was before folks like myself bothered having an archive of interviews, so I haven’t been able to find it.
But it isn’t nonsense.
The reason the Great Destroyer was an alarm clock was because it was feeding Primordus magic. In the same sense, Scarlet Briar, Drakkar, and Svanir were alarm clocks. We killed the Great Destroyer, preventing Primordus from gaining energy and rising early; we killed Svanir, but not Drakkar, slowing Jormag’s rise but not as much as we could have; we failed to kill Scarlet before she woke Mordremoth, allowing him to rise early.
“For the next hundred fifty years, the voice seduced more norn, and they joined the cult, becoming the Sons of Svanir. They believed they were drawing upon the ancient voice, but in fact it was drawing upon them, gaining the power to rise.”
It lasted for a long while for sure, since the dragons don’t care about just a few years and Jormag continue to spend some effort to gather these Norn, it could have given him a big amount, 5-10 years early at least.
And you know how long it was between Svanir’s death and Jormag’s rise? About 100 years.
Do you know how long it was between Jormag’s rise and GW2? About 150 years.
And how long were norn being seduced with promises of power? 150 years.
Hmmmmmmmmm.
Not very reliable, it would seem. Unless you’re misquoting.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Not really, Stooperdale, as this differs from the others. The difference is not in consume or destroy, but why consume or destroy.
The short of my interpretation:
- Zhaitan seeks to rule as a leader.
- Jormag seeks to be worshipped.
- Kralkatorrik seeks to own.
- Mordremoth seeks to destroy.
- Primordus seeks to kill.
For Jormag and Zhaitan, destroying is merely eliminating opposition.
For Mordremoth, corruption is just a means to an end (annihilation).
For Kralkatorrik, corruption is the goal, destroying is just so there is nothing that is not corrupted (a means to an end).
For Primordus, both is the goal.
Via my interpretation at least.
Is this what the “spheres of influence” are?
Is this what the “spheres of influence” are?
No, the spheres of influence seem to deal with how they corrupt, and the form their corruption takes.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Or all of them were near the dragon, and they were forced into a flee or die scenario.
The orbs showed the otherwise.
Exactly what I was saying. You just excluding that it rose early.
It’s very different from alarm clock.
Unfortunately, it is a very old interview and was before folks like myself bothered having an archive of interviews, so I haven’t been able to find it.
But it isn’t nonsense.
The reason the Great Destroyer was an alarm clock was because it was feeding Primordus magic. In the same sense, Scarlet Briar, Drakkar, and Svanir were alarm clocks. We killed the Great Destroyer, preventing Primordus from gaining energy and rising early; we killed Svanir, but not Drakkar, slowing Jormag’s rise but not as much as we could have; we failed to kill Scarlet before she woke Mordremoth, allowing him to rise early.
The Great Destroyer didn’t feed its master with magic like Drakkar or Scarlet did. It was simply trying to command the destroyers to occupy the underground. Actually, the central transfer chamber was keep using Primordus’ energy to power the gate(that could be a lot of energy running out). But the Great Destroyer didn’t destroy the chamber when the destroyer overrun the chamber, but was actually using the gate to attack the Norns.
And you know how long it was between Svanir’s death and Jormag’s rise? About 100 years.
Do you know how long it was between Jormag’s rise and GW2? About 150 years.
And how long were norn being seduced with promises of power? 150 years.
Hmmmmmmmmm.
Not very reliable, it would seem. Unless you’re misquoting.
It doesn’t matter, Jormag spent so much effort to drain from these people, so it had to make some significant amount of time.
The orbs showed the otherwise.
You speak as if absolutely certain.
Yet there is no concrete proof that your interpretation is correct.
It’s very different from alarm clock.
Wasn’t my analogy, but Jeff Grubb’s.
The Great Destroyer didn’t feed its master with magic like Drakkar or Scarlet did. It was simply trying to command the destroyers to occupy the underground. Actually, the central transfer chamber was keep using Primordus’ energy to power the gate(that could be a lot of energy running out). But the Great Destroyer didn’t destroy the chamber when the destroyer overrun the chamber, but was actually using the gate to attack the Norns.
Please point to me your proof that the Great Destroyer wasn’t giving Primordus magic. I know I haven’t linked the interview, but I’m not pulling it out of my kitten , regardless of what you may or may not think.
This is what you’ve been doing constantly. You state your interpretation, and claim them to be undeniable fact, but you can’t prove them. You don’t even try.
As to the Great Destroyer not destroying the Central Transfer Chamber – that’s because the CTC was using magic Primordus had already leaked out. It wasn’t siphoning from it, it was siphoning from the air around it.
Chances are, the Great Destroyer could easily have been siphoning the magic of the CTC, rather than outright destroying it, while utilizing its system to its advantage.
It doesn’t matter, Jormag spent so much effort to drain from these people, so it had to make some significant amount of time.
Here you go again, spouting your interpretations as undeniable fact without concrete proof.
It’s possible, certainly, but it isn’t a definitive.
You present only definitives. This entire time I’ve presented evidence that points to the contrary. There is no definitive scenario known to the players yet.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
You speak as if absolutely certain.
Yet there is no concrete proof that your interpretation is correct.
It’s more likely.
Wasn’t my analogy, but Jeff Grubb’s.
Source?
Please point to me your proof that the Great Destroyer wasn’t giving Primordus magic. I know I haven’t linked the interview, but I’m not pulling it out of my kitten , regardless of what you may or may not think.
This is what you’ve been doing constantly. You state your interpretation, and claim them to be undeniable fact, but you can’t prove them. You don’t even try.
As to the Great Destroyer not destroying the Central Transfer Chamber – that’s because the CTC was using magic Primordus had already leaked out. It wasn’t siphoning from it, it was siphoning from the air around it.
Chances are, the Great Destroyer could easily have been siphoning the magic of the CTC, rather than outright destroying it, while utilizing its system to its advantage.
I don’t need to prove something “didn’t” do it, you need to prove if you say it “did”, that’s basic logic.
Actually I’m not saying it’s hard fact but a possibility, you are trying to establish “fact” even though it’s just some speculation sometimes.
So let’s drop it, I don’t think it’s meaningful for either of us to continue wasting time on it. Overall it’s just game lore, it’s not worthy to get angry on someone because of it.
It’s more likely.
Maybe, maybe not.
Except for a single vague cinematic, you have nothing to support the claim that the DSD woke between Primordus and Jormag.
Similarly, you have nothing to support your claim that the krait didn’t live where the DSD was.
However, I have support for both arguments on my side.
Wasn’t my analogy, but Jeff Grubb’s.
Source?
I already explained that, unfortunately, I don’t know where the interview is – if it is even still on the internet for that matter.
I’m sure other lore veterans like drax recall it, however.
I don’t need to prove something “didn’t” do it, you need to prove if you say it “did”, that’s basic logic.
That’s a fallicious argument.
You’re saying it did something else, so by your own argument, you have to prove that it did that “something else.”
The weight of evidence falls on both sides, not just one.
If someone is put on trial, and they plead not guilty, it falls onto not just the other party to prove them guilty, but on themselves to prove that they are not guilty.
Actually I’m not saying it’s hard fact but a possibility, you are trying to establish “fact” even though it’s just some speculation sometimes.
Now you’re just denying your own previous wording.
Here you stated that the DSD awoke before Jormag, not “might have” but that it did.
Here you stated that the cinematic at the end of Episode 2 was “clearly” showing the awakening of the Elder Dragons. However, you have yet to provide evidence that makes it so cleary.
Just two cases of the many.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Question for König:
Why would Mordremoth want to “destroy the world”?
He feeds on the world, like the other dragons do. Destroying the world would destroy his own home, his own food supply.
About that interview, I recall it. Very old interview where they talked about the dragon champions and what they were doing before the elder dragons awaken. Basically the interview was saying that the Elder Dragon Champions prepare for the awakening of the Elder Dragon and its usually through siphoning magic to the Elder Dragon. An example of this would be Drakkar and the Sons of Svanir.
Elyas Wolfbane – Ranger, Xukavi – Thief
Question for König:
Why would Mordremoth want to “destroy the world”?
He feeds on the world, like the other dragons do. Destroying the world would destroy his own home, his own food supply.
I don’t think we have enough information to discern this.
All we have is Aerin’s rambling.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
It suppose “the world” could just mean “the civilized world”.
Or Mordy is a bit of a ‘negative’ nihilist (I view nihilism takes to forms – those who think ‘nothing matters so I should do whatever I want’ and those who think ‘nothing matters so it should all end’ – the latter I call negative nihilism). Or he seeks to first destroy then recreate the world. Maybe he seeks access to the Mists by imbalancing Tyria, which could theoretically remove his bindings to the world (similar to the theory of the Six Gods being their homeworld’s variety of magic balancers, and fleeing the world when it became ruined as hinted at).
Or a variety of things, really. It could be that he knows Aerin (and Scarlet) – that is, if Mordremoth truly was the force behind them (beyond heavily implied but even with that, Anet doesn’t outright say they were) – cannot destroy everything so he simply pushed them to destroy what they can under the thought of “destroy everything,” but Mordy himself doesn’t want to destroy everything.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Maybe the Deep Sea Dragon’s goal is to just have the ocean to itself. Happily doing dolphin flips and splashing around all day long.