Guild Wars 2

I’m not sure when it started, or if it’s tied to guild level, but the crystal core at the center of our home in the Gilded Hollow is getting bigger.

I looked around and haven’t seen anyone else remarking on this.

It seems important somehow.

I am vexed.

When we were capturing our guild hall last night, someone remarked that the crystal does indeed grow with your guild level.

I’m a bit curious about the nature of those crystals. They set it up as the crystals being both what’s attracting mordrem… and repelling them.

I have a theory:

Glint’s Legacy.

Glint, as evidenced by Tarir did a lot more than spin off a few prophecies. Glint had a very long game in mind. She had an agenda for Tyria, in the interest of the free peoples of tyria.

If we assume that those who “attune” with they crystals are somehow special (the game makes this about guild leadership, but I’m willing to say that’s just a convenince for game mechanics) and we know that the expeditions happen some time in the HoT storyline before the fall of Mordremoth (as the bosses we fight are those we prevent from replicating during DS) then it’s reasonable to assume that what maked the attunement possible is the act of being chosen by the egg.

Why is this important?

Mordremoth posits that the Elder dragons are the natural state of things. They eat magic because it is unnatural. We know this to be true, as magic didn’t exist in tyria before it was brought by the human gods. If the EDs are in fact the tidal forces that cause the mists to calesce in to what we know as tyria, then Mordy is right. The free will of the peoples of Tyria is an aberration.

We also know that Zhaitan was unable to corrupt sylvari because they were creatures of mordremoth. This seems to insinuate that the EDs are unable to “reclaim” things not of their domain.

What’s interesting is that there are a series of trials, both in GW1’s crystal desert and GW2’s Tarir designed by the forgotten, under the instruction of Glint. Those who complete these trials are deemed worthy to take on some form of power.

In Tarir’s case we know that this attunement is to the egg. The egg of a crystal dragon. Specifically the crystal dragon that believes our free will is important and desirable.

Those trials aren’t arbitrary. They’re part of Glint’s plan. That plan is a benign form of “corruption” of tyria. The crystals, like the source of Orr, were placed there to carry this “corruption” throughout the world. The two we know about are in the Gilded Hollow and Lost Precipice, but we can only assume that more exist, in new guild halls in new expansions at the very least, and quite probable lore-wise in other places.

We attune with the egg to prove our worthiness. We become “corrupted” champions of this new ED. We attune with these crystals in order to claim dominion of and “corrupt” the lands around them.

This form of corruption, designed by glint isn’t meant to enslave, but rather to empower us. It’s like an innoculation. We take on a bit of the new crystal dragon to safeguard us from the others.

The trials are to ensure that only those who have demonstrated virtue and ability to uphold the ideals that Glint believes to be necessary for ensuring that that power, the power to enslave through the very nature of this “corruption” is only held by those that would not abuse it.

That’s my theory anyway. The Guild hall crystals are outposts of this new symbiotic elder dragon and part of Glint’s plan to save us by ensuring that her offspring and the people of tyria are given a system in which they depend on one another in balance.

It is entirely possible that the Guild Halls are not the only place we are going to see these, and it’s almost certain that the two we know of now aren’t the only two in the world.

There is, however, a giant sylvari shaped hole in this theory. If its true that EDs can’t reclaim the “property” of the others, then how is it possible Glint’s plan applies to sylvari? Can sylvari, as free willed beings simply choose to be corrupted in this manner in the same was they can choose not be become subservient to Mordremoth? Given the extraordinary circumstance that gave rise to the Pale Tree’s sylvari, was this part of Glint’s design? Was Glint in contact with Ventari, or was the rise of the Sylvari people simply an anomaly that Glint couldn’t have possibly forseen?

We know that in the case of Zhaitan his minion can’t possibly posess free will because they’re dead. We know that Mordremoth can only corrupt weak willed sylvari, but otherwise constructs minions. We know that Jormag can only corrupt the willing. We have yet to see Primordus corrupt anything, but rather than Primordus seems to construct all of its minions. We know that Kralkatorric seems to corrupt forcibly, but also that it is not inveitable. Almorra Soulkeeper witnessed the corruption of her warbang but was not herself corrupted. Was this simply a matter of the will to resist it as well?

The “free will defense” seems to be consistant among the limitations of the Elder Dragons. They can only corrupt the willing, but it takes an exceptional and heroic amount of will to resist that corruption, enough so that Glint rightly assumes that the peoples of tyria as a whole are not equipped mentally to resist in large enough numbers. This cleanly solves the sylvari paradox in relation to this theory. We know that sylvari player characters are exceptionally strong willed sylvari.

Im confused. How were the Elder Dragons consuming magic if you are saying magic did not exist before the Gods?

Randulf.7614:

Im confused. How were the Elder Dragons consuming magic if you are saying magic did not exist before the Gods?

Randulf.7614:

Im confused. How were the Elder Dragons consuming magic if you are saying magic did not exist before the Gods?

Elder dragons don’t exist to consume magic. They consume magic because they exist.

It’s a sort of chicken and egg thing that goes in the the whole nature of the mists/reality in the Guild Wars universe. Basically, the mists are the “stuff that makes up everything”

Sort of the outer space between dimensions. What we know about our particular plane, tyria, is that magic as we know it didn’t exist before the human gods brought it here (along with humans) but that the elder dragons did exist. There are records of the previous rise of the EDs from the elder races, from a time that predates tyrian humans. There are also records that a squabble between those gods (specifically abbaddon versus the other five) was about giving magic to the world, and that magic then being locked away in the bloodstones.

It is probable the entire reason the gods were nervous about giving away all that magic was that they knew about the EDs. This would also explain their swift exist form the tyrian stage as the EDs began to awaken again.

We extrapolate that what causes the elder dragons to rise is actually the presence of magic. Sort of like how a dog is content to just sleep on the couch, but will get up and start barking when someone that’s not supposed to be there enters the room. The jotun are an example of another race that, reportedly, had a great civilization and powerful magic before the last rise. Now the story we do know about the jotun is that they sort of murdered their own civilization, and we have records that are spotty at best of the exact amount of magic employed by the other elder races during that time, like the dwarves. However, given our newfound understanding of the EDs thanks to sylvari connection to mordremoth it seems probable that the EDs are the natural state of things and that magic, and possibly even free will, are unnatural.

assasin oates.3018:

Randulf.7614:

Im confused. How were the Elder Dragons consuming magic if you are saying magic did not exist before the Gods?

And we know for a fact magic existed before the gods arrived. That's why they chose the Artesian waters to enter Tyria, it was abundant in magic

It’s not about the binary existance of magic, but rather the amount. Saying the world was completely without magic is incorrect, yes, but it’s the difference between a toilet and flooding the house in this case.

The human gods (abby specifically) flooded the house, the others tries to engage in some emergency plumbing with the bloodstones, but then dad (the EDs) found out and got mad at everyone.

I just realized this analogy leads to dad then drinking all the toilet water. It could be better, but meh, you get the idea.

The previous rise of the EDs seems to coincide, again, with a rise in the general magic level of tyria as well, given what little records we have of that time.

The Six Gods didn’t bring any magic into the world. They utilized magic stored in the Bloodstone that was created by the Seers – who created it to store the non-corrupted magic in the world during the previous dragonrise.

Natural state of Tyria is between 0 and 100. When dragons awake, it’s at ~90, when they go to sleep it’s at ~10. During previous rise, the Seers took ~40 magic and took it out of the world and into the Bloodstone; the Gods released that ~40 magic back into the world in 1 BE.

The gods did not “flood the house”. The Elder Dragons consumed – and exuded – magic for thousands upon thousands of years before the Six Gods even stepped foot on Tyria, let alone release magic from the Bloodstone.

Thank you Konig.

My interpretation may be incorrect as to the source of the magic, but the net effect is pretty much the same. The gods did in fact flood the house by releasing that magic

The central theory here regarding Glint’s agenda still seems sound, though the specifics of magic being unnatural is a little murky. Rather, it isn’t that magic is unnatural, but that there are inherantly natural and unnatural densities. The dragons, being the natural state of things, enforce that natural order, or density of magic right?

However, the raw release that modern tyrians rely on as a resource for energy, defense, and a number of other things is core to their way of life, and taking that away seems to have the same disastrous results.

The theory itself still seems to work, though the details are a bit different.

But they didn’t flood it anymore than it normally would be.

It’s not so much that the gods flooded anything, so much as the seers put the water in buckets and took it out of the pool, and the gods just put it from the buckets back into the pool.

All they seemed to do, given the statements that the Elder Dragons’ awakening matches the previous cycle’s length per Varra Skylark in Arah, is basically undo what the Seers did. Resulting in no change overall.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But they didn’t flood it anymore than it normally would be.

It’s not so much that the gods flooded anything, so much as the seers put the water in buckets and took it out of the pool, and the gods just put it from the buckets back into the pool.

All they seemed to do, given the statements that the Elder Dragons’ awakening matches the previous cycle’s length per Varra Skylark in Arah, is basically undo what the Seers did. Resulting in no change overall.

The real question is the why of the seers, which is murky for anything they have ever done. I mean all we really know about them is that they are or were at war with the mursaat, that neither race is native to Tyria, and that both have attempted to use it in one manner or another as some sort of base/weapon/battleground/something in that war. We also know that the human gods aren’t native to Tyria.

All these races came here for a reason, but the Seers and Mursaat came here first, presumably as part of their war. Perhaps the Mursaat were attempting to weaponize the EDs in a greater conflict and were thwarted by the Seers, whos work was then undone by the gods?

Abaddon was cast out for this act, right? Is it possible the other gods discovered the truth of the EDs and forbid it for just that reason?

We’re not certain all that magic was natural to tyria in the first place, and the fact that a swell of that magnitude causes such a violent reaction from the EDs raises all sorts of questions. I’m fairly certain the EDs themselves are natural inhabitants of tyria, possibly even the reason it exists at all as powerful consciousnesses have a tendancy condense the mists in to various material or semi-material planes. It begs the question why there would be such massive fluctuations in the first place if this were the case, as it would seem the natural state of tyria would be just a by product, the dream of the dragons.

What we’re told is that they did it to save magic from the Elder Dragons who wanted to consume it all. That’s what the Forgotten told the Exalted, at least, as shown in the achievement A Study in Gold.

And, uh… you make a lot of mistakes.

1. The ONLY races confirmed to not be native to Tyria are humans and Forgotten. By all indication, the mursaat and Seers were both native. As were jotun, dwarves, ogres, charr, centaurs, etc. etc. etc.
2. To our knowledge, the war between mursaat and Seers didn’t involve the Bloodstone – but there are theories that the Seers sealing all magic was the reason for the war outbreak, with the mursaat not wanting to give their magic up.
3. The mursaat were actively fighting the Elder Dragons alongside the Seers, Forgotten, dwarves, and jotun. This is why the mursaat nearly wiping out the Seers and fleeing the world is an act of betrayal to the alliance. Unfortunately, we do not know when in relation to the Bloodstone’s creation – or intent to create it – was.

As for Abaddon being cast out: Abaddon was cast out not for releasing magic, but his (re)actions after the magic was released. Abaddon’s ‘gift of magic’ incited wars amongst humans and non-humans alike, so the other gods lessened the amount of magic given out by resealing some of it in the Bloodstone and splitting the Bloodstone into 5 pieces. On top of Abaddon not liking this, his most devout followers, the Margonites, were in a war with the Forgotten. From what I’ve pieced together: the Margonites defaced some statues of the other five gods at the biggest temple to all six gods on the Crystal Shore, the Forgotten saw this as an declaration of war and waged it, Jadoth prayed to Abaddon for intervention and Abaddon gave it, then the other five gods stepped in because Abaddon was ‘going too far’ by transforming humans into etheric demonic beings (closest thing any god has done to dragon corruption, curiously). Some sources of lore – a very minor and canon-questionable couple – state and/or imply that Abaddon was out to create his own hierarchy in Tyria. To be the ruler of the world, effectively, and the others wouldn’t allow it. But other sources – more credible – simply give no reason behind his actions other than he didn’t like limiting magic to the point he would wage war. Though some do paint Abaddon as the victim – that he didn’t start the war but merely defended his assaulted servants and was punished for it.

Fascinating stuff, but I’ve been unable to corraborate your evidence for an alliance between the mursaat, seers, dwarves, and jotun. We know that the EDs rose in the past, and that at least the dwarves and seers were involved in a fight against them, but I’d love a link to the information about this alliance of races. As far as I can tell there’s no real evidence regarding why the mursaat/seers went to war in the first place, but the common assumption is that the mursaat were the agressors.

I’d also like to note that there’s no evidence that the mursaat ever actually had a tyrian civilization. A real possibility exists that the seers settled tyria in an effort to flee a mursaat controlled plane, and it worked for a time, until the mursaat found them in tyria. What they found in tyria (the elder dragons? sources of manufacturable magic? special plants?) may very well be the turning point that allowed them to find a counter to spectral agony by using the essence of those squid guys, but it was too little too late.

For all we know they may have been responsible for that rise accidentally as a result of conjuring/using essences in and effort to infuse themselves against the mursaat’s agony attacks? This puts the bloodstones in to perspective. They needed that magic (which they perhaps brought or somehow manufactured) in order to fight the mursaat, which caused, unexpectedly, the EDs to rise. Thus they create the bloodstone to safeguard it, but in the end it becomes their undoing, as without that magic they can’t do enough infusions to combat the mursaat effectively?

PopeUrban.2578:

Fascinating stuff, but I’ve been unable to corraborate your evidence for an alliance between the mursaat, seers, dwarves, and jotun.

You’ve never done Arah dungeon, have you? Go in and talk to the scholars, particularly Randall Greyston, you don’t even have to do the dungeon path.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_%28explorable%29

What can you tell me about the Seers?

Randall: Not much is known. They were an elder race, alive when the Elder Dragons first awoke. They allied with the Forgotten, the dwarves, the jotun, and the mursaat to resist the Elder Dragons and survived.
PC: Weren’t the Seers and the mursaat enemies?
Randall: Indeed. They worked together once, but the mursaat betrayed the other races and fled from the world, returning as the Unseen Ones.

PopeUrban.2578:

As far as I can tell there’s no real evidence regarding why the mursaat/seers went to war in the first place, but the common assumption is that the mursaat were the agressors.

Pretty much. We don’t know the why – not directly at least – but we know the when. And that when was “during the previous dragonrise”.

There was an alliance, and as found during the mursaat path of Arah, the mursaat had the strongest weapon and defense against the dragon minions. However, for reasons unstated, the mursaat betrayed the other races, nearly wiped out the seers, and fled the world.

PopeUrban.2578:

I’d also like to note that there’s no evidence that the mursaat ever actually had a tyrian civilization. A real possibility exists that the seers settled tyria in an effort to flee a mursaat controlled plane, and it worked for a time, until the mursaat found them in tyria.

They had fortifications and cities in GW1’s time. They were in an alliance with the other elder races fighting the ED. That’s evidence enough for a Tyrian civilization.

And nothing says they originate from the Mists, but fled there. You don’t flee to your origin, you return.

PopeUrban.2578:

They needed that magic (which they perhaps brought or somehow manufactured) in order to fight the mursaat, which caused, unexpectedly, the EDs to rise.

The Bloodstone was created while the Elder Dragons were awake – per Randall Greystone, lead scholar on seers, and A Study in Gold, which documents a speed by an ancient Forgotten – in order to counter the Elder Dragons. The magic in the Bloodstone was natural Tyrian magic. Not brought or manufactured (as far as we know, there is no method of making magic – it is a stable but finite resource which merely changes location: within the world, within a dragon, within artifacts).

Interesting facts there Konig. I’ll have to go run Arah through a few times.

It seems odd, though, if we assume that all tyrian magic is a natural resource, and that EDs are natural inhabitants of tyria, that they would be related in this way. Maybe it’s just poor writing, but if the EDs are indeed, as Mordremoth claims, the natural state of tyria, then why would tyria naturally spike and fall off in magic levels in such a way that makes them go all batkitten crazy?

I can accept that magic is a natural resource (and one attractive enough to draw all sorts of outside planar beings to tyria) but it seems unlikely that the rise and fall of its “release” or “potency” or whatever “power level” triggers an ED event is naturally occuring in this circumstance.

I don’t think the “spike and fall” is related to the Elder Dragons’ mental or moral states. The Elder Dragons, according to A Study in Gold, seek to consume all magic in the world, but there being six means that they can’t – without causing themselves to go into hibernation from starvation. It’s a simple case of too many apex predators in a region, resulting in the region (in this case the world) to run out of the predators’ food sources.

Unlike most predators, however, the Elder Dragons don’t have the option of moving to a place with more food, but they do have the option of letting food regrow without eating – this is what they do to hibernate.

By all appearances, despite the lack of interaction the Elder Dragons are actually rivals, each trying to consume magic to gain power and remain active. The lore we have from Elder Dragons – not just Mordremoth – imply that they believe themselves to be the ‘true state of Tyria’ (in The Source of Orr, the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan calls us poisoners for trying to cleanse Orr), and imply if not explicitly show that they seek to remain awake (too many risen have lines of Zhaitan’s eternal rule to believe Zhaitan wants to lower magic just to go back to sleep).

People keep assuming that the Elder Dragons are a natural part of Tyria’s balancing cycle in their entirety. But this isn’t necessarily true – while The All does have 6 bodies of power in balance and the Apostate mentions a theory that taking them out of balance would result in the world collapsing (metaphorically), there are two things that’s often overlooked:

1. The six bodies of power are not necessarily the Elder Dragons. In the same instance we learn about The All, Hidden Arcana, there is a generically named Priory norn who mentions that we don’t know what the bodies of power represent, only that they’re are somehow tied to the Elder Dragons. That particular scholar theorizes that they are spirit realms of sorts. My theory is that they are ‘forms of magic’ – basically, the two domains that the Elder Dragons have rule over.
2. We don’t know what would happen if we take Elder Dragons out of the equation entirely. While Ogden does state that ‘too much magic and the world falls to chaos’ during Hidden Arcana, the question is: does all magic in Tyria and the Elder Dragons equate “too much”? And even if the answer is yes, can we avoid the Apostate’s theoretical/metaphorical scenario if we simply find a different means of taking magic out (e.g., another Bloodstone or two) and avoid such an apocalyptic scenario?

A lot of misinformation.

Elder Dragons awoke many times before, wiping entire races.
During their last awakening, Seers, Forgottens, Dwarves, Jotuns, and Mursaats were the dominant races.
Some works together to craft the Bloodstone to suck all the magic flow from the Mists and making Elder Dragons starving, having to sleep to preverve themselves.
That’s how they manage to not be obliterated by Elder Dragons.

The Six Humans Gods disabled the Bloodstone and even broke it later, letting the magic flow again.
Magic IS a natural thing, but creatures start feeding on it and became the Elder Dragons.

Either they are completely different creatures with similar features.
Or the last six survivors of a specie in civil war for magic.
Or six beings from a whole specie of dragons that decide to feed on magic and became corrupted by the power it gives to them.

I’m fairly certain the EDs sis not “come to be” because of the consumption of magic. The consume magic because of what they are.

Though, If you have evidence to the contrary I’d love to see it!

As to Konig, the apex predator theory is one I’ve heard before, but given the longevity of these beings, and their apparent intelligence I can’t accept a largely instinctual “and then we ate all the magic and hibernated” explanation from a standpoint of logic.

While its true that what we learn from the apostate indicated we don’t know the exact balancing mechanisms, it would be foolish to assume the EDs are not intrinsically linked with it given the vision we experienced in Omadd’s machine, or the one passed to us by the pale tree, or the tail end of the one passed to use by the egg. Omadd’s device is more abstract, but clearly represents that balance being thrown out of whack, and the tree’s vision clearly warns of a representation of rays of energy as dragons through multiple dragon images. Again, at the tail end of the egg’s vision we see what is presumably tarir, or a representation of the civilised world in danger of consumption by a dragon (likely mordremoth).

These are all of course puzzles designed by the lore team, but given what we know and even the generous corrections provided by your encyclopedic historical knowledge, I think if I were to return to the original theory regarding Glint’s agenda, it still seems sound.

We can easily assume that even if the dragons themselves are not the six elements, they are extremely closely linked to them. We can also assume that Glint’s agenda was in the interest of the people of tyria, and that the egg, the exalted, tarir, and thus the guild halls (which are abandoned exalted settlements according to notes in tarir) are also part of that plan.

And finally, the crystals in those guild halls only react to certain people. Guild officers for the purpose of gameplay, but for purposes of lore to conncetion between crystals, and the egg of the crystal dragon seem to close to be mere coincidences. Passing the Forgotten’s test chamber allows us to activate and bond with these crystals, and they feed of of us. As we invest ourselves in to the guilds, they grow.

Think back to prophecies, where another set of Forgotten trials had to be passed. In that time the trials were to gain entrance to glint’s domain, and glint again forced another set of trials.

Any time we deal with Glint or her agents, we are tested. Why?

It could just be random trope invocation, but I really do believe that Glint’s endgame, the egg, the crystals, the tests, all of it is to leave us with the only force capable of containing or controlling whatever aspect of the All the EDs exist to balance: Another ED.

And Elder dragon raised by, dependant upon, and in a symbiotic relationship with the free peoples of tyria. Just as every other ED can not sustain itself without agents to see to its needs, so too would this younger and much more vulnerable ED be unable to withstand the sure and swift wrath of its opponents.

Glint knows the mind of at least kralkatorrik, and can infer from that knowledge the mind of the others. They view the existance of the free willed minor races of tyria as an abomination, and would easily crush her fledgeling offspring. She knows it needs us to get started, and we need it to get finished.

The crystals, the tests, everything leads to the likely outcome that we and the dragon in that egg are part of that agenda. Those found worthy to feed it, protect it, and care for it until it can do the same for us, and only then, together, can we end the cycle of the EDs and claim a harmonious world in which we and the one remaining ED, usurper of the vast power of the All, lives in harmony with us, as a guide and guardian, just as Glint was before she failed.

That plan was Glint’s failsafe in case she fell, and she obviously invested a lot of time and effort in to setting it all up.

I must say, this thread has given me a wonderful idea on how to have some fun with my guild.

PopeUrban.2578:

I’m fairly certain the EDs sis not “come to be” because of the consumption of magic. The consume magic because of what they are.

I wasn’t trying to imply that… in a way.

“Dragons consume magic” is a line used quite a bit… but it’s not about Elder Dragons. It’s about dragons. This is one of many implications of a species or group of species called ‘dragons’, and we know of some: Dragon Moss, Turtle Dragons, and Saltspray Dragons are three such we saw in Cantha. Bone Dragons had to come from somewhere, as did the corpses that make up Zhaitan’s dragon champions, and Glint is said to have been a creature before corruption. Those later three were likely all the same species of dragons too.

What are the Elder Dragons? Hard to say. But dragons exist outside of the Elder Dragons and they consume magic.

If the Elder Dragons are merely different members of the same superspecies that is ‘dragons’ then they would be special individuals amongst them.

Thus “they consume magic because of what they are” but also “they came to be” because of their (over) consumption of magic.

But there is indication that the Elder Dragons were never anything before being Elder Dragons. Some, minor, indications imply that the Elder Dragons came to be as Elder Dragons, and that their very nature is being beings made out of magic. Thus again, ‘they consume magic because of what they are’ but they also ‘came to be because of consumption of magic’.

The two are not mutually exclusive. And I would argue that both are true whether their nature is ‘most likely outcome number 1’ or ‘most likely outcome number 2’ and both may remain true even if their nature is ‘outcome number 3 that never got hinted or implied before’.

PopeUrban.2578:

As to Konig, the apex predator theory is one I’ve heard before, but given the longevity of these beings, and their apparent intelligence I can’t accept a largely instinctual “and then we ate all the magic and hibernated” explanation from a standpoint of logic.

Whomever said instinctual? Certainly not I.

It is a pretty obvious fact – especially if you read Edge of Destiny and Sea of Sorrows – that each Elder Dragon has their own ultimate goals for the world, as well as their own individual personalities and their own individual concepts of self and of the world (if they deign to separate the two – Mordremoth doesn’t).

Nothing about the Elder Dragons is instinctual.

I was saying that they eat magic then go to sleep because they have no other choice. To remain awake would mean starving to death, and the Elder Dragons do not wish to die (like just about every other being) – or perhaps starving results in hibernation simply due to the nature of their bodies and being.

In other words: there are too many Elder Dragons for all six Elder Dragons to remain awake permanently and consume magic at the rate all six are consuming magic.

In theory, if they consumed less magic then they could remain awake longer (if not indefinitely), but they are not allied and as such if one were to avoid eating the others may not and become capable of overpowering the one that avoided eating to attempt to stay awake longer. Since they also seek self-preservation (as all beings do), they do not make themselves vulnerable to the other Elder Dragons.

PopeUrban.2578:

While its true that what we learn from the apostate indicated we don’t know the exact balancing mechanisms, it would be foolish to assume the EDs are not intrinsically linked with it given the vision we experienced in Omadd’s machine, or the one passed to us by the pale tree, or the tail end of the one passed to use by the egg.

What part of these three visions indicate that the Elder Dragons are part of The All?

Omadd’s Machine showed us six colored orbs lighting up and circling around Tyria, then one crashing into Tyria. These orbs are related to the Elder Dragons by the Durmand Priory.

The Pale Tree’s vision shows the egg and Tarir and how Mordremoth is after it.

The egg’s vision shows Mordremoth’s plans for Destiny’s Edge.

I don’t see how the latter two relate to the All at all, and the first being so abstract is hard to see the exact relation between the All and the Elder Dragons.

PopeUrban.2578:

the tree’s vision clearly warns of a representation of rays of energy as dragons through multiple dragon images.

No it doesn’t. It shows the egg glowing high in Tarir with the Shadow of the Dragon seeking it; we see then pillars of light, then we see the egg dropping down into a crystal lair (Glint’s Lair) which shatters.

The vision showed a kind of reverse of what we did: go to Glint’s Lair to see it drop down into the Master of Peace’s hands. Take it to Tarir, where it lit up in a pillar of light, all the while Mordremoth seeks the egg out.

PopeUrban.2578:

Again, at the tail end of the egg’s vision we see what is presumably tarir, or a representation of the civilised world in danger of consumption by a dragon (likely mordremoth).

Which has no relation to The All.

PopeUrban.2578:

We can easily assume that even if the dragons themselves are not the six elements, they are extremely closely linked to them.

I never denied such. In fact, I explicitly stated that: “we don’t know what the bodies of power represent, only that they’re are somehow tied to the Elder Dragons.”

PopeUrban.2578:

We can also assume that Glint’s agenda was in the interest of the people of tyria, and that the egg, the exalted, tarir, and thus the guild halls (which are abandoned exalted settlements according to notes in tarir) are also part of that plan.

The guild halls were visited by the Forgotten, not Exalted.

But if you go to Lost Precipice you can tell with absolute definitiveness that the location is neither Forgotten nor Exalted. It’s full of human statues – the same statues seen in Aquatic Fractal – and more importantly is made of the same structures as the forts in Silverwastes. There is also a hidden statue of Melandru or Dwayna (couldn’t get a good look) in an overgrown portion of it.

We don’t know why the Forgotten visited the halls, but it’s hard to be so certain thakittens into Glint’s legacy.

PopeUrban.2578:

Passing the Forgotten’s test chamber allows us to activate and bond with these crystals, and they feed of of us. As we invest ourselves in to the guilds, they grow.

What if claiming guild halls happens canonically before doing City of Hope?

No trials then.

PopeUrban.2578:

Think back to prophecies, where another set of Forgotten trials had to be passed. In that time the trials were to gain entrance to glint’s domain, and glint again forced another set of trials.

Wrong. The trials were to gain access to the Hall of Ascension. After we ascended, Glint opened a portal for us to get to her lair from the Hall of Ascension. The trials are unrelated to us getting to Glint’s lair.

PopeUrban.2578:

Any time we deal with Glint or her agents, we are tested. Why?

Ruka explains – the Forgotten always test people before giving them things, to ensure that they are worthy of what’s being given. It’s got nothing to do with Glint, but the Forgotten.

And each set of tests – always, curiously, in threes – is done for different purposes.

Forgotten establish tests for those seeking Ascension – something unrelated to Glint in the long run. They established tests for those who would become Exalted. And they established tests for the one who brought the egg to Tarir to ensure they are worthy of facing the Elder Dragons.

I think separating the forgotten from glint’s agenda isn’t really a valid assumption. Glint didn’t open a portal to her lair for us because we ascended. Becoming ascended was the prerequisite. This was unbeknownst to us, but there was literally no other reason to do so. The ancient elonians may have attempted ascension for different reasons, and the forgotten may have initially designed the asecnsion trials for different reasons, but by the time prophecies rolls around, it is made quite clear that the reason we are seeking ascension is specifically to gain audience with glint.

Glint foresaw that a group of chosen would fulfill the flameseeker prophecies. Glint actively hid herself away from those not fit to persue her agenda. Ascending has no other narrative purpose.

Khilbron tells us to go to the desert and ascend, which is obviously against his own interests. We do so under the false impression that we are obtaining power to return and fight the white mantle. Khilbron has the scepter of Orr already. He believes (rightly) he can take on the Mursaat alone. He’s attempting to dispose of us without showing his hand. Only after we ascend are we immediately whisked away (by the forgotten) to speak with glint and have our true purpose revealed. The only reason for ascension is to find those worthy to carry out glint’s agenda, an agenda the forgotten are quite obviously complicit with.

In the time of prophecies that agenda was to close the door of Komali, because then, as 200 years later, Glint has in mind the best interests of the peoples of tyria.

Only after these events did glint establish the forgotten and their mission. After the flameseeker prophecies were fulfilled, and the immediate threat of the titans was dealt with.

Whatever they may have served originally, it’s quite clear that well before the events of GW1, many of the forgotten aligned themselves with glint’s agenda.

There’s really not a distinction between the forgotten and glint’s agenda. The forgotten have always served forces of balance. They may not serve glint, but they are obviously aligned with glint’s agenda, and it is quite obvious in both prophecies and in Tarir that the forgotten and glint do not serve unrelated goals. The forgotten are deeply linked with glint’s agenda any time we encounter them in tyria. In fact the only other place we find them is as wardens in the domain of anguish, which is a conflict not entirely unrelated to closing the gate of komali and ansuring tyria isn’t overrun by the titans.

Think about this for a moment.

The Titans are being of extreme magical power. Letting them run roughshod over Tyria would look pretty attractive to a bunch of sleeping elder dragons would it not?

What we could not have known then, but what glint (as a former minion of kralkatorrik) already knew was that stopping the titans was paramount if she was to have time to prepare the rest of her grand design.

The flameseeker prophecies weren’t a vision of the future. They were a series of meticulous manipulations of many of the key players in tyria by both glint and the forgotten to prevent the rise of the elder dragons.

The forgotten care for glint’s sanctuary in prophecies, and are her oldest allies. They are the gatekeepers and the administrators of trials, but untimately all such trials lead right back to glint, glint’s agents, glint’s egg, etc.

The forgotten are absolutely related to glint’s agenda, as are their tests. Their alliance with glint goes back further than recorded history. Though the forgotten seem to have a larger mandate (as we see them as the gatekeepers of the domain of anguish) for the preservation and balance of tyria, it is impossible to deny that they are both complicit and willfully involved in glint’s agenda. They literally guard her sanctuary. They literally designed the tests in tarir, a city built specifically to house her egg. Though the forgotten may not be subservient to glint, they are (were) functionally her agents (or allies if the semantics bother you)

I will concede, after reviewing the tablets again that the guild hall ruins are of forgotten rather than exalted origin, but their purpose remains unchanged. They were built to nuture those crystals, and those crystals were created by glint specifically to extend her power, or that of her offspring, ot protect tyria from the elder dragons.

As for the visions, I respectfully disagree with your interpretations. Given what we know, and what I’ve seen I offer the following interpretations:

There are multiple points of light in the tree’s vision, emanating from magumma itself. We see her represent the jungle as the dragon (as evidenced by the dragon eye motif in the branches) and the shadow of the dragon as its agent. I believe these additional points of light represent glint’s crystals.

We see a warning from the egg about what may become of civilization is Mordy is allowed to succeed, yes, but the end of that vision isn’t merely about Moredremoth. It represents both mordy and dragons in general, and the shining city represents both Tarir and tyrian civilization.

The vision in Omadd’s machine specifically references the fact that we killed zhaitan. The central orb represents tyria, and the others orbit it. One orb (zhaitan) crashes in to tyria, at which point the balance of the other obs in orbit is disrupted, all but the pink orb which remains in place, but is quickly covered by the disruption that emanates from the center. I believe the pink orb represents kralkatorrik, and thus glint’s, and her offspring’s sphere of influence. I believe the disruption specifically shows the displacement of zhaitan’s sphere of influence. That vision is a warning that the other dragons (orbs) are becoming untethered by the absence of zhaitan, but that one orb (the pink one) is choosing to remain in place. This orb is Kralk, Glint, her offspring, and if her plan comes to fruition, us.

PopeUrban.2578:

I think separating the forgotten from glint’s agenda isn’t really a valid assumption.

I think it’s foolish for us not to do so!

You seem to be under the impression that the Forgotten only served Glint, but this is false. The Forgotten disappeared shortly after the Six Gods did, served for over a thousand years as Abaddon’s wardens, even went to war when the Margonites defaced the statues of the five gods (not Abaddon’s) at the Temple of the Six at the border of the Crystal Sea.

The Forgotten did serve Glint, but it was more of an alliance. The ones they were truly devoted to were the Six Gods. They came to the world at the Six Gods’ behest. They acted as guardians for the races, helping them recover from the Elder Dragons’ assault, at the Six Gods’ behest, and suffered living in the worst place in the multiverse in service to the Six Gods. They only allied with Glint because Glint was capable of hiding the races from the Elder Dragons and because the Forgotten could not create another Bloodstone and had to make preparations for saving Tyria that, apparently, the Six Gods either could not or would not do.

Not everything the Forgotten did was in relation to Glint – this is a FACT. The question is more of “what did they do for Glint” not “did they do anything not for Glint”.

PopeUrban.2578:

Glint didn’t open a portal to her lair for us because we ascended. Becoming ascended was the prerequisite. This was unbeknownst to us, but there was literally no other reason to do so.

Ascension wasn’t a prerequisite for visiting Glint. Destiny’s Edge never Ascended, yet they went to her lair. The GW2 PC never ascended, yet they went to her lair.

Ascension was needed to fight the mursaat, not to go to Glint’s lair.

PopeUrban.2578:

The ancient elonians may have attempted ascension for different reasons, and the forgotten may have initially designed the asecnsion trials for different reasons, but by the time prophecies rolls around, it is made quite clear that the reason we are seeking ascension is specifically to gain audience with glint.

Again false. The reason we are seeking Ascension is not to gain audience with Glint, but because the Flameseeker Prophecies state that a group of Chosen will Ascend so that they can fight the mursaat – our stated enemies, though still by the name of the Unseen Ones at that point.

This is the dialogue that explains why we go to the Crystal Desert:

Vizier Khilbron: “Do not be so sure. There is still a way to beat the White Mantle.”
Vizier Khilbron: “Venture to the Crystal Desert and Ascend. Only then will you be powerful enough to take on the rest of the White Mantle and their unseen gods.”
<Party Leader>: “What must we do?”
Vizier Khilbron: “Find the prophet, and claim the gift of True Sight.”
Vizier Khilbron: “That’s right. You are all Chosen.”
Vizier Khilbron: “And now you must venture through the desert. Prove yourselves worthy and claim your birthright.”
Vizier Khilbron: “Then you will take this fight to them.”
Vizier Khilbron: “Prepare yourselves. the trials of Ascension await.”

While Khilbron does say to find Glint (aka the prophet), the purpose of Ascension is to become powerful enough to fight the Unseen Ones. The goals of heading to the desert is “find Glint and become Ascended” not “become Ascended to find Glint.”

PopeUrban.2578:

Glint foresaw that a group of chosen would fulfill the flameseeker prophecies. Glint actively hid herself away from those not fit to persue her agenda. Ascending has no other narrative purpose.

If this was so, why did she remain in hiding in her lair during the time of Edge of Destiny? There would be no more need.

“No. No. The great dragon has little to fear from intruders. Little indeed. Her defenses are not to protect her. They are to test those who wish to gain her audience. The task she has foreseen in your future is not one for the weak. Oh no. She wants to be sure, sure that only those strong enough to complete this important task reach her.”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Forgotten_Gate_Keeper

Her defenses are there for anyone who wished to seek her audience, not specifically the Chosen.

PopeUrban.2578:

Khilbron tells us to go to the desert and ascend, which is obviously against his own interests. We do so under the false impression that we are obtaining power to return and fight the white mantle. Khilbron has the scepter of Orr already. He believes (rightly) he can take on the Mursaat alone. He’s attempting to dispose of us without showing his hand.

This is also false.

Khilbron led us not only to the Crystal Desert but the Ring of Fire. He could dispose of the mursaat… but only after opening the Door of Komalie, which he needed the Chosen for. And besides Khilbron and the titans don’t kill off most of the mursaat we do.

From Abaddon’s Mouth journal entry: “With the Mursaat in shambles, there is no one left to stop the Lich but me. I have little time before he sends his titans across Tyria to rule the world.”

The mursaat were destroyed by us.

PopeUrban.2578:

Only after we ascend are we immediately whisked away (by the forgotten) to speak with glint and have our true purpose revealed.

Oh, yes, we are “whisked away” when we follow a voice (Glint’s, we later learn) and head into a portal.

Very much ‘whisked away’.

PopeUrban.2578:

The only reason for ascension is to find those worthy to carry out glint’s agenda, an agenda the forgotten are quite obviously complicit with.

You do not know what Ascension is, then. It is more than mere trials – it is an actual thing. It, like Weh no Su (which is just another form of Ascension), allows those who undergo it to see souls and those hiding in the spirit realm with ease. This includes the mursaat who would slip partway into the Mists (aka spirit realm).

Ascension is more than a mere title. It is more than a simple series of tests. It’s a literal thing.

PopeUrban.2578:

In the time of prophecies that agenda was to close the door of Komali, because then, as 200 years later, Glint has in mind the best interests of the peoples of tyria.

Actually, the agenda was to kill off the mursaat. Opening the Door was just a means to an end – a means that proved far more devastating than Glint had foreseen.

PopeUrban.2578:

Only after these events did glint establish the forgotten and their mission. After the flameseeker prophecies were fulfilled, and the immediate threat of the titans was dealt with.

Whatever they may have served originally, it’s quite clear that well before the events of GW1, many of the forgotten aligned themselves with glint’s agenda.

Yet even during the events of GW1, these many of the forgotten are aligned with the gods’ agenda too.

PopeUrban.2578:

The forgotten are deeply linked with glint’s agenda any time we encounter them in tyria.

Not any time.

And seeing how we only encounter those who served Glint while in Tyria – sans the one above – that’s a rather biased sample. We know that while in Tyria, there were many who were not aligned with Glint. Like those who were around before Glint was freed, or those who fought the Margonites in the name of the gods.

PopeUrban.2578:

In fact the only other place we find them is as wardens in the domain of anguish, which is a conflict not entirely unrelated to closing the gate of komali and ansuring tyria isn’t overrun by the titans.

Realm of Torment*

And their purpose is not to keep the titans in check, but to keep Abaddon in check. And each and every one of them there mention only the gods as the ones they align with. Not a single mention of Glint.

Which caused many to think that the Forgotten were a people divided in two.

PopeUrban.2578:

The Titans are being of extreme magical power. Letting them run roughshod over Tyria would look pretty attractive to a bunch of sleeping elder dragons would it not?

Source? They’re made from tormented souls, which while true are oft used as a form of energy by demons… are not necessarily ‘extreme magical power’.

Besides, if you knew your lore you would know that the Fury was leading the titans into Tyria, and would have followed suite if the Door hadn’t been closed so quickly, to lead the way for Abaddon’s return.

Abaddon was using Khilbron to open the Door of Komalie to bring forth his first attempt at Nightfall. Shiro was his second attempt. Varesh his third.

PopeUrban.2578:

The flameseeker prophecies weren’t a vision of the future. They were a series of meticulous manipulations of many of the key players in tyria by both glint and the forgotten to prevent the rise of the elder dragons.

This statement is countered by everything we know of Glint, however.

Even by the Exalted and Forgotten, Glint is said to be a prophet who foresaw the future – just not everything of it.

PopeUrban.2578:

The forgotten care for glint’s sanctuary in prophecies, and are her oldest allies. They are the gatekeepers and the administrators of trials, but untimately all such trials lead right back to glint, glint’s agents, glint’s egg, etc.

Just because Glint makes use of them doesn’t mean they were designed for her.

PopeUrban.2578:

Though the forgotten seem to have a larger mandate (as we see them as the gatekeepers of the domain of anguish) for the preservation and balance of tyria, it is impossible to deny that they are both complicit and willfully involved in glint’s agenda.

Exactly. The Forgotten have a larger mandate.

And that is serving the Six Gods. THAT is their larger mandate.

Just because the trials of Ascension was utilized by Glint does not mean that they were made for Glint.

PopeUrban.2578:

I will concede, after reviewing the tablets again that the guild hall ruins are of forgotten rather than exalted origin, but their purpose remains unchanged. They were built to nuture those crystals, and those crystals were created by glint specifically to extend her power, or that of her offspring, ot protect tyria from the elder dragons.

Lost Precipice isn’t even Forgotten in origin. The Forgotten were there – that is undeniable – but they did not build the place.

Given the human statues there, it is safe to argue that humans built it. The same people who built the ruins in Silverwastes (the forts and near the skritt place underground).

PopeUrban.2578:

There are multiple points of light in the tree’s vision, emanating from magumma itself. We see her represent the jungle as the dragon (as evidenced by the dragon eye motif in the branches) and the shadow of the dragon as its agent. I believe these additional points of light represent glint’s crystals.

What dragon eye. The only motif created by Branches is the Pale Tree’s face at the very beginning.

The vision begins showing the Pale Tree going into dormancy (“I am fading”). Then the vision pushes beyond the Pale Tree to show a crystal egg that the Shadow of the Dragon flies towards, with golden structures rising from clouds, then a series of pillars of lights which drive off the dragon. Then the egg sinks into the crystals, which shatter as the screen pulls back showing Mordremoth’s vine growing.

Interpretation aside, none of this is The All, which you claimed.

PopeUrban.2578:

We see a warning from the egg about what may become of civilization is Mordy is allowed to succeed, yes, but the end of that vision isn’t merely about Moredremoth. It represents both mordy and dragons in general, and the shining city represents both Tarir and tyrian civilization.

Which is, again, not The All, which you claimed.

PopeUrban.2578:

The vision in Omadd’s machine specifically references the fact that we killed zhaitan. The central orb represents tyria, and the others orbit it. One orb (zhaitan) crashes in to tyria, at which point the balance of the other obs in orbit is disrupted, all but the pink orb which remains in place, but is quickly covered by the disruption that emanates from the center. I believe the pink orb represents kralkatorrik, and thus glint’s, and her offspring’s sphere of influence. I believe the disruption specifically shows the displacement of zhaitan’s sphere of influence. That vision is a warning that the other dragons (orbs) are becoming untethered by the absence of zhaitan, but that one orb (the pink one) is choosing to remain in place. This orb is Kralk, Glint, her offspring, and if her plan comes to fruition, us.

That’s just image manipulation. Tunnel vision, effectively, that centralizes on the middle. The purple orb was close to the center in the background while the others were on the edge of the screen. You can tell this is mere image manipulate by how everything gets distorted and stretched, with more distortion the further away from the center is. Even the purple orb becomes less of an orb, with it being pulled to a side giving it a “squished” appearance. See attachments.

I never stated glint designed the ascension trials. The trials were designed by the forgotten, and utilized by Glint and her forgotten allies. At not point did I state that the forgotten were wholesale slaves or agents of glint. However, it is clear that a large number of them were in fact both complicit in and aware of her agenda.

The vision in Omadd’s machine is not simply image manipulation. The dispersion of the remaining orbs is not merely a lens effect, they are seen physically moving away from the center.

Though all of GW1 was a combination of Abbaddon’s various plots to return, and foiling those plots was the primary journey of the PCs, Glint, in the very first release of prophecies, is taking part in that plot for a very different reason.

Many of your rebuttals rely on strictly literal interpretations of text and dialogue spoken or written by entities who have demonstrated a willingness to deliberately mislead from or obfuscate the truth.

As early as eye of the north we already see the formation of an Exalted-like organization charged with the protection of Glint’s egg. EOTN marks the epilogue of the battle against abbaddon, and sets the stage for the waking of the elder dragons.

This responsibility can not be left with the dwarves, however, as more and more of them find themselves pulled away by the rite of the great dwarf, and so Glint requires new agents.

As the gods (whom the majority of the forgotten serve) exit, presumably taking many of their forgotten servants with them, those complicit in glint’s greater plan (for whatever reason. Compassion for humans, loyalty to their ally glint, who knows? They are by all accounts free willed creatures.) begin to prepare these crystal sanctuaries and, just as they did in the crystal desert, shepard a and instruct a new group of pilgrims on a new path.

These pilgrims build the crystal sanctuaries alongside the forgotten, learn from the forgotten, and some among them are tested by the forgotten. Those that succeed their tests become exalted.

Those that fail the tests continue to tend the crystals in these sanctuaries until they are driven out by the rise of the elder dragons and the death of glint. Without glint, the crystals that protect them cease to do so, and the sanctuaries are overrun.

Those that remain flee to cantha, build a kite city, and will later be known as the zephyrites. Over time and without any more direct contact with the forgotten or glint, their histories become muddled or willfully distorted to protect the secret of Glint’s egg.

It is entirely possible that the egg that now sits in Tarir is the last such egg (we know Glint birthed an entire brood, not simply one egg) , and that each such outpost held its own egg and its own group of proto-zephyrites and forgotten, caring for their respectiv eggs and training to deicde who among them was worthy to become exalted.

In fact, the entire reasoning bechind establishing her sanctuary may have been for that very reason. Stop and consider what little we know about dragon reproduction. How many eggs could Glint have laid, and might her passive non-involvement for so long have been not an intentional one, but one of necessity, as birthing the eggs was a central part of her strategy.

Glint may have potentially become more powerful and active as a participant in the fight against the elder dragons earlier, but she still had work to do, and that work involved having a LOT of eggs. It understandable, if this is the case, why she would not have joined the fight herself any earlier. If she truly posesses the gift of prophecy then such a long term strategy may have had benefits only she could forsee.

PopeUrban.2578:

I never stated glint designed the ascension trials. The trials were designed by the forgotten, and utilized by Glint and her forgotten allies.

You pretty much were saying that Glint had ordered the Forgotten to make the trials of Ascension just like she did the trials for the Exalted and beneath Tarir.

PopeUrban.2578:

At not point did I state that the forgotten were wholesale slaves or agents of glint.

Slaves? No. But that was the very first thing you said.

“I think separating the forgotten from glint’s agenda isn’t really a valid assumption.”

Which means that the Forgotten never work outside of Glint’s agenda.

PopeUrban.2578:

The vision in Omadd’s machine is not simply image manipulation. The dispersion of the remaining orbs is not merely a lens effect, they are seen physically moving away from the center.

Not when the green orb crashes into the center. They light up in order and circle around, but they all eventually still and then the green orb crashes into the center.

PopeUrban.2578:

Though all of GW1 was a combination of Abbaddon’s various plots to return, and foiling those plots was the primary journey of the PCs, Glint, in the very first release of prophecies, is taking part in that plot for a very different reason.

Yes and no.

The plots were, ultimately, made to be us unwittingly countering Abaddon, but Glint never showed any acknowledgement of a force behind the titans. If she did, then she would never have called the titans (aka the “flame”) to be a force that could destroy both good and evil – because if Glint knew they worked for Abaddon, who is evil, it would not be destroying evil.

PopeUrban.2578:

Many of your rebuttals rely on strictly literal interpretations of text and dialogue spoken or written by entities who have demonstrated a willingness to deliberately mislead from or obfuscate the truth.

And your claims rely strictly on individuals lying when they have no need to.

But aside from hiding the fact he was the Lich and knew what was behind the doors, what did Khilbron hide? What possible reason would he have to see the heroes dead before they could open the door for him? Why would he send them to the Crystal Desert at all when going there would lead to them getting the one tool that ensured they could fight the mursaat? The PCs gave up hope and he led them on the path. If his goal was their death, why would he do this?

All others I quoted never lied at all – to our knowledge – thus your claim is wrong there too.

PopeUrban.2578:

As early as eye of the north we already see the formation of an Exalted-like organization charged with the protection of Glint’s egg. EOTN marks the epilogue of the battle against abbaddon, and sets the stage for the waking of the elder dragons.

The only such thing we see is the Brotherhood of the Dragon protecting Gleam.

No formation of any organization there.

PopeUrban.2578:

As the gods (whom the majority of the forgotten serve) exit, presumably taking many of their forgotten servants with them, those complicit in glint’s greater plan (for whatever reason. Compassion for humans, loyalty to their ally glint, who knows? They are by all accounts free willed creatures.) begin to prepare these crystal sanctuaries and, just as they did in the crystal desert, shepard a and instruct a new group of pilgrims on a new path.

These pilgrims build the crystal sanctuaries alongside the forgotten, learn from the forgotten, and some among them are tested by the forgotten. Those that succeed their tests become exalted.

Those that fail the tests continue to tend the crystals in these sanctuaries until they are driven out by the rise of the elder dragons and the death of glint. Without glint, the crystals that protect them cease to do so, and the sanctuaries are overrun.

Those that remain flee to cantha, build a kite city, and will later be known as the zephyrites. Over time and without any more direct contact with the forgotten or glint, their histories become muddled or willfully distorted to protect the secret of Glint’s egg.

This doesn’t work.

Per A Study in Gold, the Exalted actually came from the Zephyrites – established by the Brotherhood of the Dragon, not Forgotten – who primarily derive from Elonians. This means that the Exalted and Zephyrites were formed roughly the same time – first chosen by the dwarves, then by the Forgotten for the Exalted.

The structures we see in Lost Precipice and Silverwastes predate the Exalted’s formation per A Study in Gold. It seems more likely that they were established by a group that once had a presence in those areas: the Druids.

It should be noted that Lost Precipice lines up with the western edges of the Bloodstone Fen mission (most of it being off the map, mind you), which was a location where the druids post-transformation resided. This sounds far more likely than your claim, in all honesty, given this singular question:

Why?

Why would the Forgotten establish Lost Precipice with humans (we know the Forgotten were there for a time) but not make it a golden cannot-be-consumed-by-dragon-minions location like Tarir and the Gilded Hollows?

And if they were at Lost Precipice and the origins of those structures, that means they were the origins of the structures in Silverwastes – as well as the Shrouded Ruins in Verdant Brink. Which again makes one ask: why did they make those differently?

And it’s not just a matter of the substances of the structures, but the very design. They have two wholly unique appearances in the mere design. Tarir and the Gilded Hollows appearing far more akin to the Hall of Ascension and Hall of Heroes, while the Lost Precipice, Verdant Brink, and Silverwastes are more akin to sandstone versions of the original GW1 Tarnished Coast ruins (just highly worn).

Whether you place the origins on the Forgotten or the people who became the Exalted or the people who became the Zephyrites (which is no different than the people who became the Exalted), it just doesn’t fit because the Forgotten would have been there for that construction like they were for Tarir/Gilded Hollows\.

PopeUrban.2578:

It is entirely possible that the egg that now sits in Tarir is the last such egg (we know Glint birthed an entire brood, not simply one egg) , and that each such outpost held its own egg and its own group of proto-zephyrites and forgotten, caring for their respectiv eggs and training to deicde who among them was worthy to become exalted.

Why would they place all these different eggs in different structures… right next to each other?

While we know that the egg we’ve been seeing is “the last one intact” (per Ogden in Hidden Arcana), it would seem silly to guard and move them… all to the same location, if their survival was paramount. Spreading them across the world would seem a bit more reasonable – at least until their purpose is needed.

So does the crystal grow when your GH gets a higher level?

Per second post in this thread: Yes.

As to why, given the assumptions of this theory, you don’t see the same gold leafing in the structures in the wastes or lost precipice, I think it comes down to location.

The gold is a countermeasure to mordremoth specifically, and these locations are quite some distance from the percieved stronghold of mordremoth. It also worth noting that as far as we know that gold leafing is a product of the exalted themselves as some sort of magical constructs.

Maybe we’re looking at other orders, perhaps not proto-zephyrites, but sister orders similar to how the brotherhood of the dragon was related in purpose but not directly in lineage. These were guarding eggs in these locations, and that not all of these people were destined to ultimately joining the ranks of the exalted, it would also make sense that those settlements didn’t bear the distinctive architecture and materials used by the exalted. My house doesn’t look like a military base because it doesn’t house and equip soldiers. My house would also probably fall to enemy forces quite quickly if the protections that keep those forces at bay failed.

The exalted may have been a concept invented later on, after the establishments of these orders, specifically in preparation for when/if they fell. This falls in the timeline pretty well, and would also support this idea that the forgotten in support of glint weren’t around for their founding, but showed up later to assist and direct the exalted recruiting process.

They’re simple structures seemingly carved from local materials. I’d imagine that if you were to find such a place in, say, the fire islands, or the shiverpeaks it would also look quite different as a reflection of its local populace. They may have even been pre-existing settlements converted to glint’s cause later.

I’m also pretty sure they’re not related to the druids. We’ve seen pre-transformation druid dwellings all over magumma in GW1. Empty cities in the thick jungles, usually not too far from a few helpful local druids. You find them in exploration zones and all over the jungle, always devoid of population, unlike everywhere else in GW1 we see dwellings, which are either explained as or physically populated by npcs.

PopeUrban.2578:

As to why, given the assumptions of this theory, you don’t see the same gold leafing in the structures in the wastes or lost precipice, I think it comes down to location.

The gold is a countermeasure to mordremoth specifically, and these locations are quite some distance from the percieved stronghold of mordremoth. It also worth noting that as far as we know that gold leafing is a product of the exalted themselves as some sort of magical constructs.

There are a number of issues with this, which I’ve actually already addressed.

1. You see golden structures in Verdant Brink and Silverwastes, where you also see the non-gold ruins.
2. You see the golden structures in GW1, in Hall of Ascension (aka Augury Rock) and Hall of Heroes.
3. We know for a fact that the Forgotten, not Exalted, created Gilded Hollows.

PopeUrban.2578:

Maybe we’re looking at other orders, perhaps not proto-zephyrites, but sister orders similar to how the brotherhood of the dragon was related in purpose but not directly in lineage. These were guarding eggs in these locations, and that not all of these people were destined to ultimately joining the ranks of the exalted, it would also make sense that those settlements didn’t bear the distinctive architecture and materials used by the exalted.

These ruins look to be older, imo, and based on the dialogue of A Study in Gold with the Forgotten naming Lost Precipice but just called Gilded Hollows ‘a hollow’ seems to indicate that Lost Precipice was a place before the Forgotten showed up.

Furthermore, this does not address the critical question: why house multiple eggs in the same region? Why house an egg in Lost Precipice but the one meant for Tarir be carried across the world?

PopeUrban.2578:

The exalted may have been a concept invented later on, after the establishments of these orders, specifically in preparation for when/if they fell. This falls in the timeline pretty well, and would also support this idea that the forgotten in support of glint weren’t around for their founding, but showed up later to assist and direct the exalted recruiting process.

The supposed founding of these establishments to guard Glint’s eggs requires Glint to be around… You just contradicted yourself in the singular post…

And it still doesn’t solve the fact that it is the Forgotten, not the Exalted, who built the golden structures.

PopeUrban.2578:

I’m also pretty sure they’re not related to the druids. We’ve seen pre-transformation druid dwellings all over magumma in GW1. Empty cities in the thick jungles, usually not too far from a few helpful local druids. You find them in exploration zones and all over the jungle, always devoid of population, unlike everywhere else in GW1 we see dwellings, which are either explained as or physically populated by npcs.

We’ve seen structures in the Maguuma, but never any origin placed to them. The closest thing to structures we saw druids nearby resemble the sylvari’s houses, and even that’s a bit of a stretch and is where the druids were as spirits not as flesh and blood.

The forgotten built the structures, but I’m fairly certain Exalted Burnishers put that golden sheen on them. That is literally their only job. They make stuff gold. If there were no exalted prior to GW1, then how is it possible we see the same forgotten architecture with gold leafing?

The only possible explanation is that the exalted derive this ability through instruction from the forgotten, which supports my theory of the fogotten having a heavy hand in testing/training the exalted, and thus being complicit with glint’s agenda.

Those multiple eggs were not only housed in this one region. The core of my theory assumes such places exist all over tyria. we just so happen to have access to these ones.

Tarir, being, as far as we know, the newest of these structures was created without an egg at its heart, specifically to house the last egg which glint kept close by until she passed it off to the zephyrites. Tarir and the exalted are late comers because they’re failsafes. Tarir’s location has a lot more to do with its position as a leyline nexus. It’s a heavily fortified, leyline powered, purpose built bunker for a worst case scenario in which the outposts themselves (guild halls and other regions of tyria that include such a crystal) failed.

I’ll break it down to a simpler timeline to illustrate.

Human settlements exist.

Glint breaks away from kralk, shutters herself away in the crystal sanctuary with the assistance of a faction of forgotten.

Glint begins work on a plan to safeguard tyria from the next rise of the EDs by creating a symbiotic “corruption” of tyria. She begins birthing a massive brood of eggs.

Glint tasks her forgotten allies with establishing sanctuaries throughout tyria for these eggs so that they can mature in to her leutentants for this new plan.

The forgotten enlist the aid of human settlements, sometimes just visiting, sometimes sticking around.

A series of enclaves is established across tyira. Each is protected by an aspect or device of Glint, a crystal, and each houses an egg.

Glint, recognizing the first stirring of the EDs and realizing her plan may not come to fruition soon enough.

Glint asks her forgotten allies to seek among the places they’ve established and the heroes of tyria candidates for an elite, immortal order called the Exalted.

Under Glint’s instruction, the forgotten, with their exalted allies, construct Tarir at a leyline nexus. Its mission is to rapidly accelerate the hatching of one of Glint’s eggs so that, should Glint die, her plan can be carried out anew by one of her offspring.

The exalted in Tarir, having completed their work, go in to stasis, only to be activated by an egg.

Glint accompanies DE against Kralk, in an attempt to buy her enclaves more time. She fails, and is killed.

With Glint’s death, the crystals protecting the egg enclaves fail. They are overrun quickly by forces seeking to consume or destroy the eggs. Some of these forces are elder dragons, some are domestic. The occupants of these settlements are killed or flee.

Glint entrusts a final egg, kept in stasis in the sanctuary, to the Zephyrites. Their mission, take the egg to Tarir.

Caithe discovers this information in the Silverwastes by accident. She determines that it is pert of her wild hunt to end the dragons that she deliver the egg to Tarir.

The Zephyrites fail.

Caithe Fails.

The Commander succeeds in bringing the egg to Tarir.

The Commander undergoes forgotten tests, becomes bonded with the egg, the commander is now “corrupted” by the infant dragon within.

The Commander discovers a sanctuary, clears it of Mordrem, and reactivates the crystal.

The crystal grows in strength as the commander and the egg mature in power.

The Commander lobotomizes Mordremoth.

Tarir achieves its function, redirecting the leyline energy in to the Egg. Glint’s plan has a newfound chance at saving the world from the Elder Dragons and avoiding a catastrophic event that may come to pass if they are all killed.

PopeUrban.2578:

The forgotten built the structures, but I’m fairly certain Exalted Burnishers put that golden sheen on them. That is literally their only job. They make stuff gold.

They don’t make things gold. Per the HoT trailer, it was an Exalted Sage that did such (which we actually see happening in the Auric Basin meta event – it’s sages, not burnishers, going out to activate the pylons turning them and their surroundings golden).

The Burnisher’s job is repair – both stone and flesh, they heal and mend.

PopeUrban.2578:

If there were no exalted prior to GW1, then how is it possible we see the same forgotten architecture with gold leafing?

The only possible explanation is that the exalted derive this ability through instruction from the forgotten, which supports my theory of the fogotten having a heavy hand in testing/training the exalted, and thus being complicit with glint’s agenda.

Theory? It’s outright, explicitly, stated that the Forgotten recruited the Exalted. This is the entire basis, the very origin of the Exalted, stated everywhere there is Exalted lore. It’s no secret.

You’re talking in circles, drawing conclusions where fact has been established and where there is no conclusion to be had alike!

And all the while, you avoid the issues with your theory: if the Forgotten is the source of the golden structures, why did they not make the other ruins – which you claim they are the source of – out of gold too?

PopeUrban.2578:

Those multiple eggs were not only housed in this one region. The core of my theory assumes such places exist all over tyria. we just so happen to have access to these ones.

Magus Falls is the first place such structures have been found, but we have access to a lot of Tyria – so they couldn’t “exist all over Tyria” otherwise we would have ran into others. There may be others like Tarir – in fact, A Study in Gold suggests such – but it’s also implied in A Study in Gold that the purpose for the Forgotten’s visits to Lost Precipice and GIlded Hollow is not related to the Exalted’s task (which is to protect the egg(s) from the Elder Dragons).

Your theory fails to acknowledge the stark difference between the structures despite claiming shared origins. Your theory fails to acknowledge why they moved on from Lost Precipice and Gilded Hollows when the purpose of such visits is stated to not be the same as purpose for visiting Tarir.

It’s no doubt to me that the crystal is tied to the Forgotten’s visits, given the difference in structure, which also hints to different origins.

Your theory also fails to explain why every egg but the one handed to the Zephyrites is treated differently. If they were all so important, one would think that they’d be treated similarly. And further, one would expect such important objects to hold better defenses – defenses the likes of which Tarir has (non-corruptable magic, non-corruptable and unaging defenders, a series of outposts to establish parameter defendes, etc. etc.).

PopeUrban.2578:

Tarir, being, as far as we know, the newest of these structures was created without an egg at its heart, specifically to house the last egg which glint kept close by until she passed it off to the zephyrites. Tarir and the exalted are late comers because they’re failsafes. Tarir’s location has a lot more to do with its position as a leyline nexus. It’s a heavily fortified, leyline powered, purpose built bunker for a worst case scenario in which the outposts themselves (guild halls and other regions of tyria that include such a crystal) failed.

You don’t give a failsafe an insanely huge boost in effectiveness. You simply place it out of the way, out of sight.

Yet Tarir has everything these other places don’t have.

And Tarir isn’t powered by ley lines at all.

PopeUrban.2578:

I’ll break it down to a simpler timeline to illustrate.

Human settlements exist.

Glint breaks away from kralk, shutters herself away in the crystal sanctuary with the assistance of a faction of forgotten.

Problem right here. Glint broke from Kralkatorrik before humanity even arrived on the world – during the previous dragonrise.

PopeUrban.2578:

Glint begins work on a plan to safeguard tyria from the next rise of the EDs by creating a symbiotic “corruption” of tyria. She begins birthing a massive brood of eggs.

Except that her entire plan – the creation of the Exalted and passing her egg to the Zephyrites – went into motion after Primordus began awakening.

PopeUrban.2578:

A series of enclaves is established across tyira. Each is protected by an aspect or device of Glint, a crystal, and each houses an egg.

Except that Tarir has no such device.

And Gilded Hollows/Lost Precipice has no location to house an egg. Nor are they on ley lines which would feed the eggs. Nor do they have any form of defenses. Nor do they have defenders that could prove effective against dragon minions.

Why is Tarir so much more effective as a defensive structure in comparison if all of these places were established as defensive structures?

PopeUrban.2578:

Glint, recognizing the first stirring of the EDs and realizing her plan may not come to fruition soon enough.

Happened before she even made the steps we know of her plan.

PopeUrban.2578:

TGlint accompanies DE against Kralk, in an attempt to buy her enclaves more time. She fails, and is killed.

With Glint’s death, the crystals protecting the egg enclaves fail. They are overrun quickly by forces seeking to consume or destroy the eggs. Some of these forces are elder dragons, some are domestic. The occupants of these settlements are killed or flee.

Glint entrusts a final egg, kept in stasis in the sanctuary, to the Zephyrites. Their mission, take the egg to Tarir.

Caithe discovers this information in the Silverwastes by accident. She determines that it is pert of her wild hunt to end the dragons that she deliver the egg to Tarir.

How can Glint die and then entrust the final egg to someone? Furthermore, the egg was given to the Zephyrites centuries ago per A Study in Gold – back when her plan was beginning to be set into motion (per all our knowledge).

And learning something doesn’t make it a Wyld Hunt for sylvari. Sylvari may not know what their Wyld Hunt is but they don’t just go “oh, this must be my Wyld Hunt”. It’s not like people thinking they found their purpose in life.

PopeUrban.2578:

The Commander succeeds in bringing the egg to Tarir.

The Commander undergoes forgotten tests, becomes bonded with the egg, the commander is now “corrupted” by the infant dragon within.

The Commander discovers a sanctuary, clears it of Mordrem, and reactivates the crystal.

The crystal grows in strength as the commander and the egg mature in power.

The Commander lobotomizes Mordremoth.

Except that there is no timeline comparison between capturing a guild hall and the HoT storyline.

You can capture a guild hall before doing any of the HoT storyline beyond Verdant Brink, or after it all. Furthermore, it’s not the Pact Commander who captures a guild hall. It’s a guild. Which guild? Not in lore. Who is the guild leader? Not in lore.

Per lore, here is the confirmed timeline in relation to Glint:

1. Roughly 3,000 years ago (Exact date unknown, would be post 1769 BE), Glint became freed by the Forgotten.
2. Earliest Human records: 786 BE
3. Forgotten exile themselves to Crystal Desert in 174 AE.
4. Glint compiles Flameseeker Prophecies in 272 AE
5. Flameseeker Prophecies come to pass in 1072 AE, including deaths of a lot of Forgotten at the hands of the GW1 heroes (presuming they weren’t resurrected later). All of Glint’s known eggs are in her lair at this point.
6. Primordus stirs in 1078 AE, Brotherhood of the Dragon begins turning to stone, Gleam, the only known hatched egg, is attacked by Destroyers.
7. Primordus awakens in 1120 AE. Dwarves fully undergo the rite but not before establishing the Zephyrites. Around this time, the Forgotten chose the would-be Exalted and they begin working towards creating Tarir, the Exalted aided by Rata Novans who didn’t exist prior to 1080 AE.
8. Rata Novus falls in 1155 AE, Tarir already in hibernation and the last Forgotten gone.
9. Glint dies in 1320 AE, the final intact egg goes into stasis.
10. 1327 AE, Zephyrites take the final egg to Tarir, The Exalted having become active.
11. 1328 AE, the plot of HoT. No established order of claiming guild halls before or after visiting Tarir – but if we go in order by map, then order would be: clear Lost Precipice → visit Tarir → clear Gilded Hollows → Tangled Depths and on stuff.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Per second post in this thread: Yes.

Many kudos to you <3

Interesting stuff Konig, thanks for correcting my timeline!

Let’s toss out a lot of assumptions and inconsequential theory here and get straight to the core question, as I feel we’re becoming mired in minutiae and really losing the focus of discussion.

What and why are these crystals?

I am not making the assertion that these places were created to guard the eggs. They were converted from existing settlements, by the forgotten and their natural inhabitants, and in most cases were only marginally changed simply to suit the placement of the crystal itself.

I also made no assertion that these locations house ley line energy, or are designed as hatcheries. Tarir is designed for that purpose, as an incubator.

However these other locations I envision as safe houses. Literally a way to avoid putting all of glint’s eggs in one basket. Whether at the urging of glint, or of their own volition, the forgotten establish, as they later do with the exalted and through dwarven proxy the zephyrites, a series of orders charged with safeguarding the eggs.

They aren’t all indicative of forgotten architecture because they are not all forgotten settlements In fact, however many of these places may exist in the world, each may have been originally constructed and inhabited by any number of different cultures or even races. What they have in common is, simply, that they were approached by the forgotten or other agents of this “people’s dragon” agenda and convinced to take up the mantle of safeguarding an egg with the help of these crystalline structures.

The crystals themselves may have housed the eggs given their general size and shape, and their power did not derive from ley line energy, but rather from Glint Herself

Glint’s death was the catalyst that caused them to fail, and, being reliant upon these devices, their defenders may have quickly found themselves unable to prevent becoming overrun, despite their convictions or other martial preparations. The two such places we know of are both well within mordremoth’s realm and overrun by mordrem. Sensible, as even without the energy they derived from glint, it is conceivable that these crystals were still of a magical nature, and thus of interest to various elder dragons and other parties interested in such things.

Tarir, looking at your revised timeline, is either the centerpiece of this plan, or its last resort. In either case, Tarir, and the exalted for that matter, are significantly different in purpose. Tarir was designed for the expressed purpose of incubating a dragon, not simply protecting a dragon egg.

The basic premise here is that The crystals existed to help house and protect eggs until they could be incubated either naturally or artificially in Tarir and _spread wide enough about the world that they could be later used as focal points for these crystal dragons to corrupt, and thereby safeguard the surrounding land and people from the other elder dragons for the rest of time

Furthermore, as to the timeline, we just don’t know where the expeditions sit. You can’t quite ascribe narrative flow to map connections simply because maps are fixed in time, but often connected in bizzarre ways. Vale is connected to Verdant Brink, despite being clearly places after Dragon’s stand in the time line.

As for the guilds angle. Simply put, I can’t really believe Anet would write a narrative system that assumed only certain players were ‘special’ enough to activate/bond with these crystals. The guilds angle assumes that a single person, generally one in a leadership role, is fit to activate/bond with the crystal. However, that person is not uniquely special among his peers (guildmates) aside from the fact they have chosen to follow him.

Either anyone assumed to have made way through the appropriate story steps has the ability and the “leadership” requirement is simply a convenience for gameplay purposes, or arenanet actually wants to codify, in lore, that leading a guild makes you magically special. I’m guessing the first is true.

I mean that’s all I have for you really, a theory, based upon observation and revised with your impressive historical knowledge, but I refuse to believe these crystals aren’t somehow connected with the overarcing emerging plotline of glint’s egg. Their appearance, prominence, and very existence is simply too well placed to be a coincidence.

After all, it would have been really easy to just make the centerpiece of these halls a structure, or a banner, or anything else. Anet chose, specifically, to make them crystals with a very close material apperance to that used everywhere we associate with glint in GW2, and chose to use a shape very appropriate for housing the GW2 version of what we know one of glint’s dragon eggs looks like.

I’m interested to see if you have an alternate theory, but from where I’m sitting it’s the only one that makes even a little but of sense, unless the halls really are just non-canon lore black holes, which is something anet specifically said they didn’t want halls to be.

However, using them in the context of “one place of many” allows them to attach lore significance to every guild hall, as well as establish a non-hall location for story instances regarding such crystals to be introduced. This has the effect of not making any individual hall or guild “the chosen one” but rather communicating that they’re all inducted in to a grand and heroic tradition to save the world, and one even non-guilded players can participate in throughout the stroy by way of introducing one or more such locations that are not guild halls.

PopeUrban.2578:

I am not making the assertion that these places were created to guard the eggs. They were converted from existing settlements, by the forgotten and their natural inhabitants, and in most cases were only marginally changed simply to suit the placement of the crystal itself.

I also made no assertion that these locations house ley line energy, or are designed as hatcheries. Tarir is designed for that purpose, as an incubator.

You indirectly did by claiming they all housed (thus would need to guard and feed) the eggs.

If the eggs were under assault by the Elder Dragons before the Forgotten went to these places (supposedly – we’re not sure on the exact timeline but it seems to all be post-Prophecies/Eye of the North), then it makes no sense to leave the eggs defenseless and if the plan required the eggs to hatch, it makes no sense to have their final location to be without food for the egg/hatchling.

PopeUrban.2578:

They aren’t all indicative of forgotten architecture because they are not all forgotten settlements In fact, however many of these places may exist in the world, each may have been originally constructed and inhabited by any number of different cultures or even races.

Then who created the ruins of Lost Precipice? Who is this mystical group with absolutely zero implication of being tied to the Forgotten or Glint’s legacy in the lore?

PopeUrban.2578:

The crystals themselves may have housed the eggs given their general size and shape, and their power did not derive from ley line energy, but rather from Glint Herself

Glint’s death was the catalyst that caused them to fail, and, being reliant upon these devices, their defenders may have quickly found themselves unable to prevent becoming overrun, despite their convictions or other martial preparations. The two such places we know of are both well within mordremoth’s realm and overrun by mordrem. Sensible, as even without the energy they derived from glint, it is conceivable that these crystals were still of a magical nature, and thus of interest to various elder dragons and other parties interested in such things.

This would be foolish because:

1. The Forgotten established these locations as part of their plan after GW1.
2. We are told that the Forgotten were establishing this plan because Glint had already foresaw her own death.

If these locations were established to be powered by Glint herself, not only would that drain her for when she came to her inevitable battle with Kralkatorrik, but they would have to be designed to fail.

And if the plan Glint had set up was for the eggs to counter the Elder Dragons, she would not establish a defense intended to fail.

Furthermore, we know the Forgotten visited Lost Precipice and established Gilded Hollows for a purpose different than that of Tarir.

More likely, instead, if these crystals did siphon from Glint as you now propose, their purpose would be to function like Bloodstones – housing magic to feed the egg taken to Tarir. However, I do not believe that Glint did this because we know that there was a lot of magic in Glint’s corpse, “as that is where Zephyrite magic comes from”: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Short_Story:_The_Trek_of_the_Zephyrites and they have a lot of it.

So while the idea being for them to be ‘intended snacks for the hatched egg’ might be sound, and would explain why the mordrem were attracted to them (they tried to consume their magic), I would argue that the magic placed in them then would be one-time, and they were intended for Tarir’s egg not for their own.

PopeUrban.2578:

Tarir, looking at your revised timeline, is either the centerpiece of this plan, or its last resort. In either case, Tarir, and the exalted for that matter, are significantly different in purpose. Tarir was designed for the expressed purpose of incubating a dragon, not simply protecting a dragon egg.

Any location housing an egg long term would no doubt be doing both.

There is likely a reason why the Zephyrites were constantly on the move, guided from place to place by their Aspect Masters – the only ones who knew their true purpose.

PopeUrban.2578:

The basic premise here is that The crystals existed to help house and protect eggs until they could be incubated either naturally or artificially in Tarir and _spread wide enough about the world that they could be later used as focal points for these crystal dragons to corrupt, and thereby safeguard the surrounding land and people from the other elder dragons for the rest of time

I don’t get you.

How does turning the world into crystalline monstrosities – even if kind monstrosities – save the land and people? That is what dragon corruption does – even good dragon corruption seen used by Glint and the Pale Tree.

PopeUrban.2578:

Furthermore, as to the timeline, we just don’t know where the expeditions sit. You can’t quite ascribe narrative flow to map connections simply because maps are fixed in time, but often connected in bizzarre ways. Vale is connected to Verdant Brink, despite being clearly places after Dragon’s stand in the time line.

In HoT, each map is based after the previous map. Tangled Depths is based after Verdant Brink, as we see an NPC from Verdant Brink show up in Tangled Depths. We know that Dragon’s Stand is based after the other three maps, for they have NPCs from all three (and then some) – even if the number of NPCs is only equal to the number of islands in the final fight, give or take.

We also know that certain story steps happen before and after certain map events. We know that City of Hope and Prized Possessions takes place before the Tarir defense – as the egg is used to activated the outposts thus allowing the Sages to activate the pylons.

We also know that The Jungle Provides takes place before the Itzel meta chain, and we know Torn from the Sky takes place before the Pale Reaver and Pact Encampment meta chain, as well as indication that the meta chains for Pact Ordnance group and Noble Ledges are before Prisoners of the Dragon.

Indicated order of open/instanced storyline of HoT is:

Torn from the Sky → Pale Reaver meta → Pact Encampment meta → The Jungle Provides → Jaka Itzel meta → Noble Ledges meta → Pact Ordnance group → Prisoners of the Dragon → Prized Possessions → Pylons events → City of Hope → Tarir defense meta → Roots of Terror → Buried Insight → Tangled Depths meta → Bitter Harvest/Blighting Towers meta → Hearts of Minds/Mouth of Mordremoth meta

The question is where the guild hall claiming fits in. If we base on this, I would argue Lost Precipice happens between Pact Ordnance group and Prisoners of the Dragon, while Gilded Hollows happens between City of Hope and Tarir defense meta.

Or it might not happen at all to the Pact Commander and is done by ‘adventurer guilds’.

PopeUrban.2578:

As for the guilds angle. Simply put, I can’t really believe Anet would write a narrative system that assumed only certain players were ‘special’ enough to activate/bond with these crystals. The guilds angle assumes that a single person, generally one in a leadership role, is fit to activate/bond with the crystal. However, that person is not uniquely special among his peers (guildmates) aside from the fact they have chosen to follow him.

If memory serves me, you just have to be the highest ranking member of the guild in the claiming instance. Which means if the leader isn’t there but five equally ranked officers are, any one of them could work with the crystal.

PopeUrban.2578:

Either anyone assumed to have made way through the appropriate story steps has the ability and the “leadership” requirement is simply a convenience for gameplay purposes, or arenanet actually wants to codify, in lore, that leading a guild makes you magically special. I’m guessing the first is true.

There’s only one Pact Commander. Well, there’s many of the rank, but in the main story there is only one player character. The others when involved are just random adventurers or simply non-existent.

So there couldn’t be any “made way through the appropriate story steps” for dozens of folks. There is one egg bearer.

PopeUrban.2578:

I mean that’s all I have for you really, a theory, based upon observation and revised with your impressive historical knowledge, but I refuse to believe these crystals aren’t somehow connected with the overarcing emerging plotline of glint’s egg. Their appearance, prominence, and very existence is simply too well placed to be a coincidence.

They’re involved with Glint’s legacy plan. But her legacy plan exceeds the existence of the egg.

From A Study in Gold: “Glint’s legacy is far more than just her offspring, and you must protect it all.”

PopeUrban.2578:

Anet chose, specifically, to make them crystals with a very close material apperance to that used everywhere we associate with glint in GW2, and chose to use a shape very appropriate for housing the GW2 version of what we know one of glint’s dragon eggs looks like.

I disagree that they’re close in appearance to Glint’s crystals.

Most of Glint’s crystals are blue, some are transparent – in both games. These are pure white.

Corruption != monstrosities.

We’ve seen on several occasions completely or mostly unaltered early stage minions of several elder dragons. We ourselves experience it when we bond with the egg during HoT. We’ve seen norn who give themselves to jormag do not immediately become hulking monstrosities. That takes time, and presumable effort on the part of Jormag or his agents by proxy. It seems only logical that if the aim was not to create grotesque weapons of war, but a simple “inoculation” against outside corruption this would be well within the sphere of ability of any elder dragon. Most choose not to do so as their mandate is conquest, and thus they have no interest in preserving those they corrupt.

The egg is important to this plan specifically because Glint isn’t around to facilitate that role. The crystals were important as there was no guarantee any one egg would survive, thus spreading and hiding them throughout the world in such out of the way places.

As for who built the structures in lost precipice? Could have been anyone, but if it was in fact the forgotten, then I ask the same question you asked my about them. Why don’t they look like other forgotten structures? More importantly, why are they filled with human statues and imagery not directly related to the gods?

It seems obvious these were at some point in the past human settlements, either indigenous humans or refugees from the war in kryta. We didnt see similar structures during GW1 in the region, but at that time most humans were relatively new to the region, and largely consisted of soldiers and merchant caravans.

These crystals and their pink/white sheen are absolutely related to glint. they share the same appearance as the crystal bits we find on “arbiter” armor, her egg, and the crystal bits of the herald’s gear. nowhere in GW2 can I recall seeing remarkably blue crystals unless you could the obviously blue zephyrite ones (which come in multiple hues for readability)

There is only one egg bearer. However, any character who can interact with that crystal is likely treated by the plot as both pact commander and egg bearer. Just like the game treats YOU like the commander for the purposes of open world storytelling and everyone who isn’t you as other pact personnell. This viewpoint extends to guild halls. YOU are the important character when the plot and gameplay systems demand it. In this case the person activating the crystal. Just as there can’t be seven thousand pact commanders, there logically can’t be seven thousand people activating the crystal. It’s a slight plot hole for gameplay purposes necessary to tell a story in an MMO.

Indeed glint’s plan extends beyond the egg. The theory I posit is one explanation for that plan. Benign “corruption” which requires glint, or one of her offspring to function as a central controlling factor in the same manner that the other EDs must exist and be alive to effectively corrupt new minions. By caliming and holding these locations player guilds (and NPC organizations for any non-hall apperances of these crystals) are “protecting it all” with the obvious super important centerpiece being the plot-specific singular egg bearer and the singular location of Tarir, right?

I wouldn’t put eggs at the guild halls. But if anything they would be magic container crystals. The more magic/effort you put in the more they grow. Clearly they speak of both not being able to lock away the magic using bloodstones as that knowledge is lost they want to keep magic from the Elder Dragons using Glints expertise and knowledge.

If anything at all I would say it’s that Guild Halls are exactly that. The last time guilds with magic waged wars, by putting these Guild Halls at the center of Guilds the magic a guild possesses is managed.

It’s said that Glint’s Legacy is much more than just it’s off spring in that speech and by putting eggs all over the world it would simply contradict that. Also, it seems to me that benevolent corruption of magic would be exactly against what any of the parties want. It just wouldn’t make sense to me.

But that’s just my simple take on it.

PopeUrban.2578:

Corruption != monstrosities.

We’ve seen on several occasions completely or mostly unaltered early stage minions of several elder dragons.

Corruption, by its very definition in this situation, is the act of physically changing the body and enslaving the mind.

PopeUrban.2578:

We ourselves experience it when we bond with the egg during HoT.

That’s not corruption, that’s sharing energy.

Magic coming from dragons by nature is not corruptive. If that was so, then all magic in the world would be corrupted, because all magic in the world had been consumed and exuded by the dragons in their many cycles of awakening and hibernation.

PopeUrban.2578:

We’ve seen norn who give themselves to jormag do not immediately become hulking monstrosities.

Jormag – and Primordus when he corrupts living beings – has the physical changes being transitional. But all icebrood eventually become akin to Icebrood Goliaths and Icebrood Colossi.

Branded – the corruption of crystal dragons – is entirely instantaneous. You will never see a non-crystalline branded. Just like risen are instantaneous in appearance.

Even icebrood, every one of them has heads and hands turned into ice very quickly.

PopeUrban.2578:

It seems only logical that if the aim was not to create grotesque weapons of war, but a simple “inoculation” against outside corruption this would be well within the sphere of ability of any elder dragon.

The only times we see such happen is when corruption radiates from artifacts (like for Kellach, the Sanguinary Blade, Howl, etc.). But such are never done directly by an Elder Dragon. Or a dragon champion.

PopeUrban.2578:

The egg is important to this plan specifically because Glint isn’t around to facilitate that role. The crystals were important as there was no guarantee any one egg would survive, thus spreading and hiding them throughout the world in such out of the way places.

The lore we have indicates that the egg is important because Glint knew she would die. Her entire legacy is built around one singular fact: Glint dies.

So if the crystals are important to the legacy, they would be important regardless, because the egg is also important regardless.

PopeUrban.2578:

if it was in fact the forgotten, then I ask the same question you asked my about them. Why don’t they look like other forgotten structures? More importantly, why are they filled with human statues and imagery not directly related to the gods?

You are the one continuously stating that Lost Precipice was built by Forgotten – or by aid of the Forgotten.

I have no reason to answer this question, because I do not believe them tied to Forgotten. I never did. They were visited by the Forgotten – that’s outright stated – but nothing says or implies Lost Precipice was made by the Forgotten.

PopeUrban.2578:

We didnt see similar structures during GW1 in the region, but at that time most humans were relatively new to the region, and largely consisted of soldiers and merchant caravans.

With exception of the druids. They’re the one and only group that held a strong presence in the Maguuma Jungle. Outside the users of Fort Koga, that is.

PopeUrban.2578:

These crystals and their pink/white sheen are absolutely related to glint. they share the same appearance as the crystal bits we find on “arbiter” armor, her egg, and the crystal bits of the herald’s gear. nowhere in GW2 can I recall seeing remarkably blue crystals unless you could the obviously blue zephyrite ones (which come in multiple hues for readability)

Uhm…

• Arbiter armor can be dyed. I made mine on my revenant look like Bloodstone shards.
• Her egg is prismatic. There’s a multitude of colors to it. And it doesn’t have the same sheen as the guild hall crystals.
• Herald’s gear is also dyable – unless you refer to the shield, which as I saw (don’t have it in-game yet) is also transparent and similar to Glint’s Lair.

As to the blue crystals, I refer to Glint’s Lair, which is nothing but blue crystals of various hues, or transparent blue. I also refer to The Dragon’s Lair in GW1, which is blue with a very sepai tone over the area. Even Glint’s body is blue (but looks gray in GW1 due to the tone over the area).

PopeUrban.2578:

There is only one egg bearer. However, any character who can interact with that crystal is likely treated by the plot as both pact commander and egg bearer. Just like the game treats YOU like the commander for the purposes of open world storytelling and everyone who isn’t you as other pact personnell. This viewpoint extends to guild halls. YOU are the important character when the plot and gameplay systems demand it. In this case the person activating the crystal. Just as there can’t be seven thousand pact commanders, there logically can’t be seven thousand people activating the crystal. It’s a slight plot hole for gameplay purposes necessary to tell a story in an MMO.

But then who are the other people in the guild? Why are you in a guild that isn’t Destiny’s Edge?

In the story, Destiny’s Edge is your guild. So why do none of them show up for claiming their guild hall, if interacting with the crystal is done by the Pact Commander/Eggbearer?

That’s more than just a ‘slight plot hole’ unless the plot is taking it to be ‘random adventurer who’s in a guild’ rather than ‘The Pact Commander’.

PopeUrban.2578:

Indeed glint’s plan extends beyond the egg. The theory I posit is one explanation for that plan. Benign “corruption” which requires glint, or one of her offspring to function as a central controlling factor in the same manner that the other EDs must exist and be alive to effectively corrupt new minions.

But why?

You are suggesting that Glint’s legacy is to turn the world into a shiny bright crystalline world full of shiny bright crystalline people.

Why would she corrupt the world?

I am absolutely NOT stating that she wants to do turn anything in to a crystalline world full of crystalline people, nor did I ever do so.

What I’m calling “benevolent corruption” or “innoculation” you are calling “sharing energy”

It is a purely semantic argument. The ideal is simple. Beings and area “touched” by one elder dragon can not be “corrupted” by another. “Corruption” is only so because the elder dragons are of malicious intent and actively seek to enslave other beings and have no concern for their individuality

You’re entirely too hung up on the literal meaning of the word “corruption” which is why I made certain to place it in quotations every time I used it as it is the closest corollary.

I’ve made the why quite clear. The how and exact what is pretty fluid and I’ve had a lot of fun revising it based on your information.

As for your argument that “you can dye stuff” I’ m not talking about your personal customizations. I’m talking about the default appearance of the gear.

It is painfully clear that these crystals are linked to glint’s legacy. let’s say they had nothing to do with the eggs. What then is their purpose, where did they come from, and most importantly why are they growing?

My extremely simplified version of this theory, stripped of all sematic arguments, is that the crystals are growing specifically because glint’s egg is maturing at an accelerated rate, and that their purpose is to assist the occupant of that egg in “sharing energy” as you like to call it, with the world to protect it from elder dragon corruption.

Forget the egg angle or the vaguaries of why or why the crystal’s activators are if it makes you happy, it’s immaterial to the central theory here. However you’d be a fool to suggest anything other than that those crystals are tied directly to glint’s plan, whatever it is.

You seem to have this idea that the world is somehow fundamentally changed by this “energy sharing” and you’re correct. It is. however it’s changed in a way that is virtually imperceptable because Glint’s agenda is to protect what is, not to mold it in to an image that mirrors her own.

Unless of course you’re asserting that doing so is actually beyond the ability of a dragon. Which, honestly, seems silly. If you can subugate and transform, surely you can simply gift and not alter. We’ve seen nothing to suggest the elder dragons are unable to use their powers in a benevolent and nontransformative fashion, simply that they have no desire to do so.

What we do know is that the only thing that can absolutely prevent elder dragon corruption is another elder dragon. Anything else is up to some combination of science, free will, and plot convenience.

Also, destiny’s edge is never your guild according to the story. DE is their own guild, whom you happen to meet. DE isn’t out claiming halls because they’re either dead, captured, or have more important things to do by that point in the time line.

Attempting to attach the “logic of multiplayer” to the plotline is a road best not travelled because the game itself doesn’t attempt to travel it. What the game does do however is make sure it can assume that any person that interacts with, lives nearby, or otherwise has access to those crystals… is also the commander of the pact, egg bearer, slayer of mordremoth, and the most important person in the world… just like everyone else.

PopeUrban.2578:

I am absolutely NOT stating that she wants to do turn anything in to a crystalline world full of crystalline people, nor did I ever do so.

What I’m calling “benevolent corruption” or “innoculation” you are calling “sharing energy”

It is a purely semantic argument. The ideal is simple. Beings and area “touched” by one elder dragon can not be “corrupted” by another. “Corruption” is only so because the elder dragons are of malicious intent and actively seek to enslave other beings and have no concern for their individuality

Nothing states that Elder Dragons cannot corrupt another Elder Dragon. The sylvari immunity has already been tied to the Dream. And we see, via the Inquest, that multi-corruption is possible.

So by ‘corrupting’ the world, whether it’s turning things into crystalline things or just temporarily giving a person a boost (which is not the same as corruption at all), would do nothing to prevent the other Elder Dragons from corrupting them.

Subject Alpha should make this crystal clear – no pun intended.

PopeUrban.2578:

As for your argument that “you can dye stuff” I’ m not talking about your personal customizations. I’m talking about the default appearance of the gear.

Which I’m arguing holds no strong tie to its actual appearance.

PopeUrban.2578:

It is painfully clear that these crystals are linked to glint’s legacy. let’s say they had nothing to do with the eggs. What then is their purpose, where did they come from, and most importantly why are they growing?

I never argued they didn’t, since the Forgotten are obviously the most likely originator of them as they are the only (known) linking factor between the two guild halls.

As to their purpose – that’s the question to be figured out, but we have absolutely zero indication as to what their purpose is. So unfortunately that means we can just say “their purpose is to attract the dragon minions away from Tarir” or something.

PopeUrban.2578:

My extremely simplified version of this theory, stripped of all sematic arguments, is that the crystals are growing specifically because glint’s egg is maturing at an accelerated rate, and that their purpose is to assist the occupant of that egg in “sharing energy” as you like to call it, with the world to protect it from elder dragon corruption.

Their growth is tied to the guild’s progression, however. The egg’s maturation is tied to the main plot. Which means that we can get to the point where the egg hatches and the guild hall crystals are unchanged – or the guild halls are maxed and the egg isn’t even in Tarir.

PopeUrban.2578:

Forget the egg angle or the vaguaries of why or why the crystal’s activators are if it makes you happy, it’s immaterial to the central theory here. However you’d be a fool to suggest anything other than that those crystals are tied directly to glint’s plan, whatever it is.

And I never argued otherwise. What I’ve been arguing against is that these places were meant to incubate other eggs.

PopeUrban.2578:

Unless of course you’re asserting that doing so is actually beyond the ability of a dragon.

For a mere dragon champion to be capable of sharing energy with the entire world that would prevent dragon corruption?

Yes, I would say that’s impossible.

Because not even full-blown corruption prevents corruption of other Elder Dragons – as the Inquest has proven, whether or not the Elder Dragons are willing to do that is another question entirely but it is possible. And as we saw during Prized Possessions, even ‘energy sharing’ didn’t prevent Faolain from corrupting and killing the player character. We had to run away from her. It effectively made the PC weaker to dragon corruption given how ‘easy’ it was to kill her later on.

Sharing magic tied to the attributes of the Elder Dragons is known to be possible. This is the very foundation of Zephyrite crystals – it’s using magic from Glint’s corpse. It’s the same thing the egg does to the PC. But this – as I stated – does not prevent corruption, does not make you stronger against dragon minions.

PopeUrban.2578:

What we do know is that the only thing that can absolutely prevent elder dragon corruption is another elder dragon. Anything else is up to some combination of science, free will, and plot convenience.

FALSE.

Forgotten magic is immune – fully immune – to dragon corruption. Dragon corruption does not prevent dragon corruption.

PopeUrban.2578:

Also, destiny’s edge is never your guild according to the story. DE is their own guild, whom you happen to meet. DE isn’t out claiming halls because they’re either dead, captured, or have more important things to do by that point in the time line.

False again.

Avatar of the Tree: Yes, Caithe has spoken to me about your involvement in Zhaitan’s demise. You still run with Destiny’s Edge?

To non-sylvari: Caithe has spoken your name to me in her tales of Zhaitan’s demise. You run with Destiny’s Edge.

And at the end of Hearts and Mind, you can talk to the group again, and Braham and Marjory both mention “our guild” – as if including Caithe and Rytlock too.

The biconics and the PC have joined Destiny’s Edge in the main story.

I must have missed something. The inquest’s multi-corruption was a fabrication, and the point of the facility. Such corruption does not happen naturally, it requires specialized equipment. Unless, you’re asserting that the crucible of eternity isn’t built specifically to facilitate unnatural uses of dragon energy, and it’s just a big building.

I’d also appreciate if you could point out where it is confirmed or indicated that the dream effectively isolated the pale reavers from being corrupted by Zhaitan. The source of the Sylvari’s immunity, unless I’ve missed something extremely important, is that they are “property” of Mordremoth. This is why there are no sylvari risen. The dream is a fabrication to protect their developing psyches from Mordremoth specifically. As we’ve seen, sufficiently strong-willed sylvari were able to resist his call. How the Soundless and other sylvari from other trees fare, or if they’re able to resist it unclear.

Again, the PC never joins destiny’s edge. The biconics join YOUR guild, of which you are the leader, and which is never explicitly named. You do in fact run WITH DE, but are not and never were a part of it. You are in fact in charge of the biconics. You lead them. they formed a guild around you and made certain not to name it. For plot purposes you’re a guild leader of at least a group of NPCs, as well as commander of the pact.

PopeUrban.2578:

I must have missed something. The inquest’s multi-corruption was a fabrication, and the point of the facility. Such corruption does not happen naturally, it requires specialized equipment. Unless, you’re asserting that the crucible of eternity isn’t built specifically to facilitate unnatural uses of dragon energy, and it’s just a big building.

It is built specifically to study dragon energy and to create a custom dragon champion the Inquest (specifically Kudu) can control.

However, the notion that multi-dragon corruption is fabrication, capable only with specialized equipment, and cannot happen naturally is 100% player speculation. The only equipment we see is that of delivering dragon corruption into subjects.

So is the claim that sylvari are immune due to being dragon minions.

And to claim that the Inquest are capable of creating a multi-corrupted dragon champion but the Elder Dragons cannot is the same as claiming that the Inquest are better at corrupting than the Elder Dragons, who’s very essence is that of dragon corruption.

PopeUrban.2578:

I’d also appreciate if you could point out where it is confirmed or indicated that the dream effectively isolated the pale reavers from being corrupted by Zhaitan. The source of the Sylvari’s immunity, unless I’ve missed something extremely important, is that they are “property” of Mordremoth.

Not just Zhaitan, but dragon corruption in general.

It is, in fact, stated that the Dream is protection against Mordremoth as well.

Avatar of the Tree: There are those who reject my protection. It leaves them vulnerable in ways they cannot imagine, in ways they never were before. I shield you as best I can and will for as long as I can.
PC: You’re talking about dragon corruption. We’ve been immune to it.
Avatar of the Tree: Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth’s corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth’s corruption can change you.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rallying_Call

The Elder Dragon can implant thoughts in its creations—thoughts they may even believe to be their own—and only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control. Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/

“Pale Tree’s protection” can only be The Dream (and, indirectly, Nightmare), as evident by the fact that people can leave her protection (becoming Soundless).

Mordremoth is capable of bypassing this protection, but the other Elder Dragons are not. In the final story instance of HoT, just as in the blog post, it’s revealed that Mordremoth has a connection to the Dream as well, and that is how he’s getting at the sylvari. But as we see during Buried Insight’s side achievement to talk to the mordrem guard there, even the mordrem guard are not truly corrupted – for they are still tied to the Dream, the protection. They just gave into Mordremoth’s whispers which happen through the Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts, showing to us that even Mordremoth cannot corrupt sylvari.

PopeUrban.2578:

The dream is a fabrication to protect their developing psyches from Mordremoth specifically.

The Dream is the sole way Mordremoth gets into sylvari psyches.

How can it be protection against Mordremoth, when it is the single reason he can attack them mentally?

PopeUrban.2578:

Again, the PC never joins destiny’s edge. The biconics join YOUR guild, of which you are the leader, and which is never explicitly named. You do in fact run WITH DE, but are not and never were a part of it. You are in fact in charge of the biconics. You lead them. they formed a guild around you and made certain not to name it. For plot purposes you’re a guild leader of at least a group of NPCs, as well as commander of the pact.

It’s stated elsewhere too that you are a member of Destiny’s Edge. The members of Destiny’s Edge treats you as one of their own as well.

The PC is a member of Destiny’s Edge. The PC is the one who brought them together again. The Pact Commander is Snaff’s replacement. The PC fulfills the role that Snaff played – the glue to keep the guild together, adviser to the guild’s actions, and effectively the strongest member.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

PopeUrban.2578:

I must have missed something. The inquest’s multi-corruption was a fabrication, and the point of the facility. Such corruption does not happen naturally, it requires specialized equipment. Unless, you’re asserting that the crucible of eternity isn’t built specifically to facilitate unnatural uses of dragon energy, and it’s just a big building.

It is built specifically to study dragon energy and to create a custom dragon champion the Inquest (specifically Kudu) can control.

However, the notion that multi-dragon corruption is fabrication, capable only with specialized equipment, and cannot happen naturally is 100% player speculation. The only equipment we see is that of delivering dragon corruption into subjects.

So is the claim that sylvari are immune due to being dragon minions.

And to claim that the Inquest are capable of creating a multi-corrupted dragon champion but the Elder Dragons cannot is the same as claiming that the Inquest are better at corrupting than the Elder Dragons, who’s very essence is that of dragon corruption.

PopeUrban.2578:

I’d also appreciate if you could point out where it is confirmed or indicated that the dream effectively isolated the pale reavers from being corrupted by Zhaitan. The source of the Sylvari’s immunity, unless I’ve missed something extremely important, is that they are “property” of Mordremoth.

Not just Zhaitan, but dragon corruption in general.

It is, in fact, stated that the Dream is protection against Mordremoth as well.

Avatar of the Tree: There are those who reject my protection. It leaves them vulnerable in ways they cannot imagine, in ways they never were before. I shield you as best I can and will for as long as I can.
PC: You’re talking about dragon corruption. We’ve been immune to it.
Avatar of the Tree: Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth’s corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth’s corruption can change you.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rallying_Call

The Elder Dragon can implant thoughts in its creations—thoughts they may even believe to be their own—and only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control. Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/

“Pale Tree’s protection” can only be The Dream (and, indirectly, Nightmare), as evident by the fact that people can leave her protection (becoming Soundless).

Mordremoth is capable of bypassing this protection, but the other Elder Dragons are not. In the final story instance of HoT, just as in the blog post, it’s revealed that Mordremoth has a connection to the Dream as well, and that is how he’s getting at the sylvari. But as we see during Buried Insight’s side achievement to talk to the mordrem guard there, even the mordrem guard are not truly corrupted – for they are still tied to the Dream, the protection. They just gave into Mordremoth’s whispers which happen through the Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts, showing to us that even Mordremoth cannot corrupt sylvari.

PopeUrban.2578:

The dream is a fabrication to protect their developing psyches from Mordremoth specifically.

The Dream is the sole way Mordremoth gets into sylvari psyches.

How can it be protection against Mordremoth, when it is the single reason he can attack them mentally?

PopeUrban.2578:

Again, the PC never joins destiny’s edge. The biconics join YOUR guild, of which you are the leader, and which is never explicitly named. You do in fact run WITH DE, but are not and never were a part of it. You are in fact in charge of the biconics. You lead them. they formed a guild around you and made certain not to name it. For plot purposes you’re a guild leader of at least a group of NPCs, as well as commander of the pact.

It’s stated elsewhere too that you are a member of Destiny’s Edge. The members of Destiny’s Edge treats you as one of their own as well.

The PC is a member of Destiny’s Edge. The PC is the one who brought them together again. The Pact Commander is Snaff’s replacement. The PC fulfills the role that Snaff played – the glue to keep the guild together, adviser to the guild’s actions, and effectively the strongest member.

Again, where is it stated that the player is a member of DE. This is never stated by any source or NPC in the game. You are never inducted in to DE. No member of DE or any NPC ever refers to you as such. You are an outsider responsible for reassembling them, and a close friend, yes, but you are not one of their number.

Further, The dream, or rather the sylvari capacity for that state, is of mordremoth originally. The nature of the pale tree, and the sylvari is that of mordremoth. The fact that the dream even exists is due to the sylvari being creations of mordremoth, and thus being designed with a limited hive mind

If what you are asserting is true, then the soundless would have been vulnerable to corruption by zhaitan. We know for a fact they are not, despite having no connection to the specific isolated hive-mind of the pale tree’s dream.

All sylvari are naturally part of one “dream” or another. The soundless go through intense meditation to shut it out. Other trees don’t have avatars that seem to care much about talking with or rearing their children. However, as evidenced by Mordremoth’s unfluence, sylvari are naturally psychically connected with one another, just like most dragon minions are naturally psychically connected to the dragons they serve. The dream is protection against mordremoth because the mother tree’s will stands as a bulwark between mordy and young sylvari. That doesn’t change the fact that their ability to experience it is all is specifically because they were designed with the capacity to take direct orders from an elder dragon if called upon. This communications method was simply hijacked and repurposed by the pale tree, after having been reared by ventari in the absence of an awake mordremoth.

There is no firm logical basis to assume that, given the copious amounts of evidence we have, Elder dragons are able to take ownership of anything claimed by another dragon. The only place we see it happen is in CoE, where years of research and specialized equipment to harness dragon energies without the consent of those dragons was used to do so.

PopeUrban.2578:

Again, where is it stated that the player is a member of DE. This is never stated by any source or NPC in the game.

It is. I recall reading it during S2. Someone called the PC a member of Destiny’s Edge, the PC denies it due to not acting with them for a while, the NPC reaffirms it stating it’s true whether the PC sees themselves as a member or not.

I thought that was the Pale Tree but the dialogue from Rallying Call is not what I recall, and I see nothing else on the wiki. I am not going to replay the entire season looking for this singular line.

PopeUrban.2578:

Further, The dream, or rather the sylvari capacity for that state, is of mordremoth originally. The nature of the pale tree, and the sylvari is that of mordremoth. The fact that the dream even exists is due to the sylvari being creations of mordremoth, and thus being designed with a limited hive mind

False!

• Malyck has no Dream – and no Nightmare. Yet he is sylvari.
• The White Stag is connected to the Dream just as the Pale Tree and Mordremoth are, yet is not a dragon minion – let alone a mordrem.

This shows that the Dream is independent of Mordremoth!

We know of three powerfully magical beings – all located in the Maguuma – tied to the Dream: the Pale Tree, Mordremoth, and the White Stag. Through the Pale Tree, her children are tied to the Dream but it is a tenuous tie. We have no indication of other mordrem being tied to the Dream, and we know that not all sylvari are tied to the dream (again: Malyck).

PopeUrban.2578:

If what you are asserting is true, then the soundless would have been vulnerable to corruption by zhaitan. We know for a fact they are not, despite having no connection to the specific isolated hive-mind of the pale tree’s dream.

No, we do not know for a fact they are not for the Soundless in their small numbers and small community never interact with dragon corruption of any kind!

We never once see a confirmed Soundless interact with anything except mordrem.

Furthermore, all Soundless are still connected to the Dream. They’ve merely muted that connection.

PopeUrban.2578:

All sylvari are naturally part of one “dream” or another.

Malyck disagrees. Repeatedly.

PopeUrban.2578:

sylvari are naturally psychically connected with one another, just like most dragon minions are naturally psychically connected to the dragons they serve.

No, it’s utterly and totally different.

First of all, the Dream is not a hive mind – which is what dragon minions typically have. Ghosts of Ascalon page 120.

Second of all, all other dragon minions have a telepathic link which is two-ways. They give and receive by all indication (even if that reception is just orders). And without it, they are mindless. Sylvari are neither mindless nor are they receiving – except when Mordremoth hijacks the Dream’s connection to them, and except for before their birth.

This is just one of many things that sylvari are utterly and totally different from all other dragon minions – including other mordrem – which makes their ‘reveal’ to be utterly ridiculous (the fact that the reveal was never necessary for the plot of HoT is even more insulting to the consistency of the game’s lore).

PopeUrban.2578:

There is no firm logical basis to assume that, given the copious amounts of evidence we have, Elder dragons are able to take ownership of anything claimed by another dragon. The only place we see it happen is in CoE, where years of research and specialized equipment to harness dragon energies without the consent of those dragons was used to do so.

No logical basis?

So it is completely logical for the Inquest to be better at what the Elder Dragons do by their very nature of being Elder Dragons?

I disagree. We are talking about eldritch abominations supposedly being mortal comprehension that have existed for tens – if not hundreds – of thousands of years. You truly think that some 40 year old asura would know the functions of dragon corruption more than a 30,000+ year old, intelligent, Elder Dragon?

That is your “firm logical basis” of assumption? The lack of evidence is not the evidence of lacking. You have to think beyond the mere lack of evidence! Think for the reason why there’s a lack of evidence!

Because, quite frankly, you need to keep in mind that, as we see with Subject Alpha, a dragon champion corrupted by multiple dragon minions is capable of controlling minions of every dragon it has been corrupted by. This is very reasonable means for an Elder Dragon to not corrupt another Elder Dragon’s minion.

Example:

Elder Dragon 1 corrupts Being A. Being A becomes a dragon champion.

Elder Dragon 2 corrupts Being A. Being A becomes a dragon champion for that dragon too.

Being A is capable of controlling minions from both Elder Dragon 1 and Elder Dragon 2. This allows Elder Dragon 2 to control Elder Dragon 1’s minions. However, this also means that Elder Dragon 1 can control Elder Dragon 2’s minion. Under the assumption that either Elder Dragon (1 or 2) can control Being A.

If I were an Elder Dragon, that is not something I would risk. I would rather destroy Being A than corrupt it if it has already been corrupted, for I would not want to lose my own army of slaves – be it to another Elder Dragon, or to an uncontrollable being.

Heck, it may even be possible that each of the six Elder Dragons were, in fact, originally beings corrupted by two previous-gen Elder Dragons that were twice as numerous, thus showing why each modern Elder Dragon has two spheres of influence. We after all are told that Glint could have become an Elder Dragon – so it is thus entirely possible that our dear six Elder Dragons are successors of older Elder Dragons. Mind you, this possibility – while viable – is a longshot indeed.

But it is less of a longshot, in my honest opinion, than claiming that the Inquest have figured out how to do the Elder Dragons’ job better than the Elder Dragons. Which is what you and everyone else claiming the same unsupported speculation that “dragon corruption prevents dragon corruption” argues.

In reference to elder dragon corruption and the inquest:

Asura in general are constantly attributed to scientific breakthroughs beyond the ken of the natural order of things because it’s a core foundation of their fictional archetype. Omadd’s machine, CoE, the fractal observatory, these are unlikely miracles of magitech that serve as plot fulcrums specifically because of the miraculous and unlikely nature of their success or existance.

I don’t think it’s at all silly to assume that yes, the inquest discovered a way to do something that the elder dragons can’t simply based upon the fact that the elder dragons seem to have no desire to do so, have never demonstrably done so, and have never once in all of recorded history been shown to have that ability. Creating virtually impossible miracles the strain the limitations of possibility are regular occurances for asura, and doing so with a malicious bent is the sole narrative mandate for the inquest as the ’evil asura faction"

While it is true that lack of evidence does not necessarily prove a point, what we do know is that

• Sylvari are minions of mordremoth.
• Sylvari are notable in the zhaitan arc as the only being that can not be corrupted by Zhaitan
• Not once in recorded history (unless your encycolpekittennowledge can find some, which would be awesome) is there an instance of any being suffering from corruption by two dragons at once, and in fact the elder dragons seem rather content to stay out of one another’s way. However, there were multiple occasions where it would have behooved Zhaitan to corrupt sylvari, and this never happenned. Not to pale tree sylvari or any other sylvari anywhere as far as we are aware. Biologically, innately, sylvari are immune to corruption. Regardless of whther they originate from the pale tree or not, unless that corruption stems directly from mordremoth.

On the subject of the dream and malyck, Malyck does not feel a connection to a dream. however, as a sylvari, he has the capacity for a dream. We know that the pale tree was capable of resisting mordremoth. We also know that malyck came from a tee somewhere.

Where is he circa HoT though? I can’t find him anywhere. Any other tree without the benefit of Ventari’s teaching would likely blindly follow mordremoth. It wouldn’t costruct a detailed mindscape specifically to instill a subconscious desire for righteousness. It would just birth sylvari so that they’re around when mordremoth wakes up. Sylvari are all born with this capacity as a function of their true purpose, including malyck. It doesn’t mean they are encouraged or taught to use it however.

Imagine being of malyck’s tree. As far as you are aware, the tree is just that, a tree. you can speak with the other sylvari around you, but you have no reason to even think about communicating mentally because nobody told you you could. However, as a sylvari you have that ability.

As humans we have the ability to run for miles without stopping. That endurance is somewhat unique in the animal kingdom. It’s a function of our evolution, and is implicit in the way our feet, spines, and musculature have evolved. When we developed complex eyes and upright posture so that we could percieve threats from far away, we evolved in such a manner that we could endure rather than outsprint predators, which are generally designed as sprinters.

However, in the modern age we don’t need to USE that ability, so many of us have never done so. Many people live their entire lives without running ten miles nonstop. However, it is an implicit human ability, and if given the inclination to do so we are unique among many of the creatures around us in our ability to develop that ability.

So too is they sylvari’s metnal connection with their trees, each other, and mordremoth. Just because it isn’t used doesn’t mean it isn’t there. Malyck and his tree were simply never encouraged to develop any sort of overt dream.

As for the white stag, that’s a complex issue that may have more in common with collective subconscious or simply another magical, psychic being with the ability to jack in to that telepathic network like neo jacks in to the matrix. It’s a terribly mysterious creature for sure.

PopeUrban.2578:

Asura in general are constantly attributed to scientific breakthroughs beyond the ken of the natural order of things because it’s a core foundation of their fictional archetype. Omadd’s machine, CoE, the fractal observatory, these are unlikely miracles of magitech that serve as plot fulcrums specifically because of the miraculous and unlikely nature of their success or existance.

I disagree. They do not push beyond the ken of the natural order but instead push the understanding of what is possible within the natural order.

The Inquest aren’t midget versions of Victor Frankenstein – well, most aren’t – who seek to defy natural order (and those that are always fail), but instead are closer to the Illusive Man (Kudu especially) whom are more about finding an understanding about what we currently do not know regardless of the cost. Like any scientist – with or without morals.

They not once break the natural order of things. The closest one can argue, you’ve mentioned: Omadd’s machine. However, even this is just a device to show someone the natural order of the world – which in of itself is not breaking it.

PopeUrban.2578:

I don’t think it’s at all silly to assume that yes, the inquest discovered a way to do something that the elder dragons can’t simply based upon the fact that the elder dragons seem to have no desire to do so, have never demonstrably done so, and have never once in all of recorded history been shown to have that ability. Creating virtually impossible miracles the strain the limitations of possibility are regular occurances for asura, and doing so with a malicious bent is the sole narrative mandate for the inquest as the ’evil asura faction"

On the bold:

Our ‘all of recorded history’ in regards to the Elder Dragons is very, very little, and when we talk about Elder Dragons’ interaction with each other it is non-existent. We have no foundation for the claim that Elder Dragons cannot corrupt another’s minion because we have no situation where minions of two different Elder Dragons interact with each other.

You are basically saying “the sun and moon cannot touch because the sun and moon have never done so” – this is a pure archaic line of thought.

PopeUrban.2578:

While it is true that lack of evidence does not necessarily prove a point, what we do know is that

• Sylvari are minions of mordremoth.
• Sylvari are notable in the zhaitan arc as the only being that can not be corrupted by Zhaitan
• Not once in recorded history (unless your encycolpekittennowledge can find some, which would be awesome) is there an instance of any being suffering from corruption by two dragons at once, and in fact the elder dragons seem rather content to stay out of one another’s way. However, there were multiple occasions where it would have behooved Zhaitan to corrupt sylvari, and this never happenned. Not to pale tree sylvari or any other sylvari anywhere as far as we are aware. Biologically, innately, sylvari are immune to corruption. Regardless of whther they originate from the pale tree or not, unless that corruption stems directly from mordremoth.

All we are proven is that the Pale Tree’s sylvari cannot be corrupted. This is undeniable. But to argue that this immunity comes from the fact they are minions of Mordremoth and not from the fact that they are obviously purified minions and protected by something not all mordrem or even sylvari are tied to is rather foolish.

In fact, I would like to present our very first line about sylvari immunity, which shows the full scope of it that the personal story does not:

“While the other races may be corrupted by the Elder Dragons, turned into undead minions or crystalline creatures of the Brand, the sylvari are never turned. Those born of the Pale Tree simply die before the corruption takes hold. Many sylvari believe that this is because they were born to battle the dragons, blessed with a certain protection against their most horrible powers. Some non-sylvari scholars state instead that the sylvari’s strange biology foils the corruption of the dragons. A few clever souls state that sylvari just taste bad to dragons. No one knows for certain which is the truth.”

https://web.archive.org/web/20120111070324/http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/sylvari/

Take note of the bolded’s wording. Those born of the Pale Tree. This means sylvari not born of the Pale Tree lack this immunity. Malyck is not born of the Pale Tree. What does he lack compared to the Pale Tree’s sylvari? The Dream of Dreams.

Mind you, this was written back in 2010 or so and was removed before release, replaced with a “simplified version,”: and thus knowledge of another tree’s existence was not known. However! Knowledge of other seeds like the one that sprouted the Pale Tree was known thus other sylvari trees out there was a fullblown probability.

It is interesting to note the form in which this immunity takes place: death.

Which means that not only did the Inquest manage to get the two energies to not conflict – if such is a case – but that they managed to keep the subject alive through and after the process. By your argument.

PopeUrban.2578:

On the subject of the dream and malyck, Malyck does not feel a connection to a dream. however, as a sylvari, he has the capacity for a dream. We know that the pale tree was capable of resisting mordremoth. We also know that malyck came from a tee somewhere.

In theory, given the fact that any of the main races enter the Dream – twice – and that we see a non-sylvari/mordrem tied to the Dream (White Stag), any race has the capacity for a Dream.

But the fact is that he lacks this connection.

PopeUrban.2578:

Where is he circa HoT though? I can’t find him anywhere. Any other tree without the benefit of Ventari’s teaching would likely blindly follow mordremoth. It wouldn’t costruct a detailed mindscape specifically to instill a subconscious desire for righteousness. It would just birth sylvari so that they’re around when mordremoth wakes up. Sylvari are all born with this capacity as a function of their true purpose, including malyck. It doesn’t mean they are encouraged or taught to use it however.

Not necessarily so.

Dragon minions can’t simply ‘decide not to follow their dragon’. This goes against all fundamental values of the Elder Dragons creating slaves. They have no free will. They must be broken of it, like the Forgotten ritual that was used on Glint, or the extreme oddity of magical items fed to Mawdrey (I’m of the opinion that it was the Foefire essence – given that its magic was immune to Kralkatorrik’s corruption and burns risen more fiercely than anything else, a similar effect that divine fire had on the mordrem/Shadow of the Dragon).

Which means that the Pale Tree was at one point cleansed of dragon corruption – something I was hoping Anet would delve into. Given that the Pale Tree’s seed came out of a cave of them and ‘plant monsters’ which apparently didn’t attack Ronan, it’s likely that there was a whole cave full of purified seeds – after all, the words of a centaur cannot purify ancient magic any more than the words of a norn, human, charr, or asura can (which we know they can’t).

Which means that each tree that could have been planted would have been with free will. Since Mordremoth ‘corrupted’ the sylvari of the Pact via the Dream, these trees and their sylvari would in turn need to be connected to the Dream. Until directly influenced by corruption, that is (though purification itself does seem to apply a deal of protection – why else would Kralkatorrik not re-corrupt Glint unless he couldn’t? But whether or not it affects those created by purified dragon minions is the question – and it’s unknown if the Pale Tree and the other seeds were purified directly, or if one of those ‘plant monsters’ was the one purified directly and it created the seeds thus leaving the seeds as vulnerable as sylvari).

In short: there is a LOT of factors that affect sylvari but not any other dragon minion. To claim that just because sylvari cannot be corrutped by other dragons means that any dragon minion cannot be corrupted by other dragons is downright foolish. There are far too many unknowns and variables still yet unanswered. All we can say is this: for some reason Kralkatorrik didn’t corrupt Glint, and for some reason Mordremoth didn’t corrupt the Pale Tree, and for some reason the sylvari are immune to dragon corruption from Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan, and seemingly even Mordremoth and the only way Mordremoth got to them was by playing mindkitten games and convincing them to serve him willingly or by cloning their corpses.

PopeUrban.2578:

As for the white stag, that’s a complex issue that may have more in common with collective subconscious or simply another magical, psychic being with the ability to jack in to that telepathic network like neo jacks in to the matrix. It’s a terribly mysterious creature for sure.

And it’s a creature that otherwise completely destroys your theory.

The white stag “destroys my theory” just as much as Scarlet Briar destroys the theory that asura are good at magitech.

The white stag is an exception, not the rule, and is a rather famous exception at that, notable for the fact that it’s an exception. Desired by the nightmare court for the fact that’s its an exception. A risk to the dream because of the fact that it’s an exception.

In reality the white stag is a lore black hole. It’s a convenient plot macguffin that I assure you we will never hear from again, like suits of invincible armor, magical superweapons, people’s sisters, hypnotism macines, time travel devices, and a whole range of personal story macguffins that have no relevance to the primary plotline, despuite how useful they may have been in the ongoing fight against the elder dragons.

Nothing says the White Stag is an exception, thus it is not notable for being an exception. It’s desired by the Nightmare Court in the same sense that they desire any sylvari.

On the note of the other personal story plots:

• Quite a few of the early PS “superweapons” did show up later – such as the Balthazar Idol showing up in the Priory’s Claw Island arc, Gorr’s research showing up in the OoW Claw Island arc and the Orr arc, Ghostbore Musket from charr Iron Legion shows up in Orr arc and Claw Island arc, etc. etc.
• Deborah shows up later too.
• The Whirling Grizwhirl shows up earlier in the asura storyline, though doesn’t seem to show later.

Quite a lot of things show up later. The problem is that they show up in a specific two/three storylines and you’ll not always line them up without the foreknowledge (very rarely will you line them up, in fact, unless you spoil yourself or replay the game multiple times).