Guild Wars 2

“Charr are just mindless monsters, Sethus.” Cobiah yawned. “There’s nothing interesting about a mindless eating machine.”

This is an excerpt from page 39 of Ree Soesbee’s Guild Wars novel “Sea of Sorrows” and in my mind it exemplifies (?) perfectly why the Elder Dragons -or at least their conceptualization at the moment- are bad villains.
I don’t want to get into the discussion about what makes a good villain character , basically it boils down to “only an character with a distinct personality can make the player feel like there’s something at stake and motivate the player to fight.”
I also don’t want to give suggestions about how this conclusion should be applied to the Elder Dragons, but I want to ask a question:
From the current understanding of the Elder Dragons, do they have any semblance of personality?
If not, is it possible for the Elder Dragons we have yet to meet to have a personality and we have simply not witnessed it yet?
What sort of personality traits would you assign the different Elder Dragons and how would the player/Tyria experience their personalities?

If these questions have been answered recently, feel free to link the source (forum thread/interview/etc.) – Thank you.

I’d say it is quite likely that they have a personality, even if we haven’t met any of them up to this point (except for Zhaitan). The only one we’ve seen so far is Zhaitan, and he doesn’t speak. So currently the only way we could try to discern a personality, is through their minions, and to a lesser extend, their actions.

Zhaitan

Zhaitan’s minions seem fiercely loyal, and several of them speak of his greatness. Zhaitan has also special minions acting as his eyes and mouths. But does this mean the Elder Dragon speaks directly through them? We know that some of Zhaitan’s minions have a mind of their own. This seems to suggest that Zhaitan might prefer to have creatures join his cause willingly, rather than force them against their will. Zhaitan also raised the continent of Orr back from the depths. This seems to suggest he wanted a base of operations, or a place to feed from. One could argue that perhaps there is some sort of vanity aspect here, where he wanted a seat of power in honor of his greatness. But there is little to support such a notion right now. Zhaitan seems to have a direct link with his minions, or it is implied. Interestingly enough, Zhaitan’s defeat is not the defeat of his army. Tequatl is still attacking from the south, and there are still waves of Risen everywhere.

Jormag

All of Jormag’s minions have either been corrupted into icebrood creatures, or they follow him loyally. We know that Jormag uses promises of power to convert his minions. He whispers promises directly into their minds. From a certain point of view he’s not lying to them, he really does give them power, but he also corrupts them in the process. We know that Jormag has a bit of a temper. He gets a bit upset when his champions are defeated, or his plans are thwarted and his roar can be heard across the Shiverpeaks when that happens.

Kralkatorrik

I haven’t read the books, so there’s probably a lot of information I’m missing out on regarding this dragon. Kralkatorrik also corrupts creatures, but it doesn’t seem like he’s building an army (so far). Instead, the Dragonbrand was simply something he chose to leave in his wake (otherwise it would have extended further). The creatures that became ‘branded’ in the process, may have been an unintended side effect. Kralkatorrik of course does have his own general The Shatterer, attacking the lands of the Charr. So there obviously are ranks amongst his minions.

Primordius

We know very little about him, except for the fact that he simply wants to destroy (his minions are called Destroyers for a good reason). Primordius seems a bit more sneaky in his ways. His army has been spreading all over Tyria, without anyone noticing. But we know very little about his personality.

I don’t like how Zhaitan was presented in game personally. We saw him just once, for a few min. We don’t even was able to talk to him, he was an just another flying animal.

You have to read Zaitan’s personality from his minions rather than from any dialogue of his own. The minions are systematic, ruthless, humorless, sadistic, arrogant and single minded. At first glance those look like the characteristics of all the dragon minions but Jormag’s minions are more cunning and are adaptable in their strategies.

Without much dialog it is difficult to read anything into the characters of the other minions and their masters.

/shamefully promotes my old research on the subject matter

Though the above is greatly out of date, predating further research into Mordremoth, theorycrafting on him, and predating Sea of Sorrows which delved deeper into the persona of the Risen.

Now, before I summarize my theory for this thread as I always do, I’d like to mention something about the OP: If you point out al ine from Sea of Sorrows, then you likely read the full novel. The end of the novel shows full well that not only do the Risen have personalities that are influenced by Zhaitan, but that Zhaitan himself has emotions – and thus a personality.

Now then, a summary of my research into the mentality and personality of the Elder Dragons:

In general, all dragon minions hold a fierce fanaticism to their respective dragon (something Malafide lists as “fiercely loyal” and seems to only denote to Zhaitan – an incomplete look), but the route of these fanatic views and the extra alterations given differ from minion to minion, from dragon to dragon.

It should also mention that all Elder Dragons can corrupt equally – but they each seem to hold a preference for how to corrupt.

Zhaitan – His minions hold a common theme, seen primarily in a select few personal story and event risen who speak, and in Sea of Sorrows. This theme is that of “immortality through undead” – to quote a few favorite lines of mine: The Mists are filled with lies. Zhaitan is our only chance at immortality. Serve him! (Risen Keeper of the Shrine ) Zhaitan’s chosen… Never truly die… (Veteran Risen Kitah Conjurer ) All the death around you. All those who have gone before you. Come to Zhaitan, and find everything you have lost. You can be with them again. _ (Sovereign Eye of ZhaitanSource_of_Orr ) Don’t worry, Grym. You’ll join me in the service of the dragon, and we will again fight as one. We will server Zhaitan forever! (Sea of Sorrows, page 422) The rule of the living has ended. This is the time of the Elder Dragons. Thus begins the time of Zhaitan and of Orr. The days of their ultimate victory is close. (Sea of Sorrows, page 426)

This points to Zhaitan desiring immortality, and seeking that through undeath – perhaps a nod to the phrase said by H.P. Lovecraft: “That is not dead which can eternal lie, yet with stranger eons, even death may die.” Or perhaps more simply to the common phrase of “How do you kill that which doesn’t live?” and its variations.

This mentality also shows in how Zhaitan corrupts: though we’ve seen cases (Necromancer Rissa and Corporal Kellach as well as some hearts in Sparkfly) in which Zhaitan’s energy corrupts living beings, and we’ve seen cases where he corrupts plants, without tampering he only corrupts corpses – and not plant corpses at that. The plants corruption is a side-effect of the Risen’s own corruption seeping into the land.

Unlike what Malafide said though, Zhaitan doesn’t seem to have creatures join him willingly – or rather, they may, but he still enslaves and alters them. All dragon minions have larger amounts of independent thought the more dragon energy they receive when being made, but what’s to note is that only Jormag has been observed “not enslaving” creatures to its will. Which brings us to…

-continued in next post-

Jormag – There are two things that are constantly used to describe Jormag and his minions: “hate” and “power.” One thing of interesting note is, as I mentioned, Jormag is stated by a Whispers agent, Khrigar Ripjaw (note: the Whispers agent dialogue is not on the wiki – you get it only if you’re Whispers), the only Elder Dragon to prefer taking willing ‘converts’ if you will over enslaving via corruption. To quote him (thank you screenshots of old!): “That’s what makes Jormag different. Other dragons corrupt creatures in order to enslave them, but Jormag entices victims with promises of power before they’re corrupted.” Other mentions of power include the Frost Portal in Drakkar Spurs, and the entire addage of the Sons of Svanir (viewing Jormag as the strongest Spirit of the Wild, going to him for strength) and those they convince to worship Jormag, such as Korag The mentions of hate come primarily from the novel Edge of Destiny, particularly: _ […] They were crossing the frozen waters when a strange presence grasped Svanir’s mind. It whispered seductions to him, promised power and prey. It was a voice of infinite hunger and hate, and Svanir listened to it. Jora heard the voice, too, but it terrified her. She refused its dark gifts and tried to drag her brother away, but he struck her and told her she was weak, tolder her he had discovered the well of power. She fled. Svanir remained to commune with his newfound lord. In time, the voice began to change him. It taught him to hate all living things. […] And despite the destruction, there are still foolish norn who hear the call of Svanir and seek the power of Jormag. In the end they are reduced to icebrood themselves, flesh wrapped in ice, fed by malevolence and hatred._ (page220/221; recapping the events of Jora and her brother and the rise of Jormag). There are more mentions of both, but I cannot recall where at the time.

Something else to note is that only the Sons of Svanir (or former Sons who’ve kept their minds upon becoming Icebrood) forcefully corrupted beings into icebrood. There’s rare cases of corpses being corrupted, but all directly-by-icebrood corruption is through mental enticements. Jormag is, in short, a mesmer and a seducer.

Kralkatorrik – Most of what we get for Kralkatorrik’s personality comes from Edge of Destiny where we see Snaff delve directly into Kralk’s mind. In the game, I’ve only noted one talking Branded (note: I have not done the ogre storyline). This guy is a full out masochist/sadist. But in Edge of Destiny we get a different view. Though the branded who’s minds we see and ‘hear’ them speak only talk about following Kralkatorrik – a bit of serving there, but the emphasis is follow; and in-game, we’re told that the creatures of the Dragonbrand are heading south. And when Snaff enters Kralkatorrik’s mind: It was like standing in the eye of a cyclone. All around, a great storm raged, tearing down the heavens and churning up the sands and whirling all in primordial chaos. Tortured coils of cloud mixed with dissolving seas of silt. The winds scoured away rock and rill, tree and blade, flesh and bone – and tossed them all to a crystalline tempest. All things were fuel to that storm. Everything was a feast to Kralkatorrik. […] The center of every vortex is a great emptiness – a hollow longing. The storm tries to fill the emptiness, but the more it hungers, the deeper the emptiness becomes. And Kralkatorrik’s hunger was insatiable. To draw the dragon, Snaff had to become the eye of the storm – to be what Kralkatorrik was not. (page 390/391)

In short, this points to Kralkatorrik seeking to obtain things. One can view this as I originally did as seeking perfection – to become everything (one of the definitions of perfection is “to be all things” while the standard is just “to be without flaws” – it’s a paradoxical definition which is meant to match that of the Abrahamic God). Another view is that he has absolute greed, wanting everything.

-continued in next post-

Primordus – Even excluding the name of his minions, there is only one thing we really have about Primordus and his plans: genocide. It isn’t so much that he seems to seek destruction, so much as he seeks to end all living life. For the most part, all we have is just the actions of his minions and how he corrupts. His minions kill remorselessly. They’re just simply mindless (until a champion comes about) killing machines. Burning things seems to be more of a side-effect out of what they’re made out of (lava) than their intent, as per Edge of Destiny they burn simply by touch. The means of corruption is that they are born out of pools of lava, formed slowly over time. The exception to this is the Destroyer Queen whom is speculated in-game to either have been a living being corrupted by Primordus, something unheard of, or a new type of dragon minion – what most folks don’t know on this is that if you go to save the skritt you see that some eggs spawn Destroyer Trolls, thus proving the first theory false. The Destroyer Queen is not a living being corrupted, despite most thoughts. The eggs seem to simply be what eggs are: portable incubations for spawning destroyers – the difference is that the destroyer eggs are forming what will be birthed out of rock and lava, rather than flesh and born. It should be noted that Primordus is still capable of corrupting living beings (see this interview ).

The only solid evidence we have of Primordus’ intentions via descriptive words rather than actions is from an old interview – though sadly I don’t have any records of it – is that the Great Destroyer awoke early in order to pave the way for Primordus; and this was to be done by eliminating all life on the surface. This was the same interview which described the Great Destroyer as an ‘alarm clock.’ Most Elder Dragons act by corrupting life, but Primordus is unique in that he solely destroys it.

Mordremoth – Even harder than Primordus given that we know even less of him. All we can really do is theorize his persona based on theorycrafting of what is tied to him.

I believe that the Nightmare (thus the Nightmare Court) and the “Blighted” in Wychmire Swamp are tied to Mordremoth. Tie this to the Crucible of Eternity’s Zone Green/Experimental Lab Green and we get one consistent theme: Poison and Plants. In the above linked interview, Jeff mentions an Elder Dragon being tied to “Vegetation” and with the ties of poison, we can get one very specific concept: the one of nature overrunning civilization. I further theorize that the Toxic Alliance may have – intentionally or not – delved into Mordremoth’s corruption, as well as the Fervid Censor which create similar effects; hostility through pollens. One does this through hallucinations, making the victim believe allies are enemies, while the other somehow drives them into a craze. In Wychmire Swamp, we see grubs and husks and finally a wurm become oddly hostile (most grubs are docile until attacked). If we go further, there’s an event in southern Caledon in which Mosshearts are twisted by the Nightmare Court – this model is the same as the Champion Ancient Rotting Oakheart in Queensdale (whom we’re told can spread it’s ‘corruption’ if not killed), as well as the Veteran Rotting Oakheart that teleports into Thaumanova (which has now been confirmed to have been researching dragon energies! Another tie!); on top of this, Nightmare Hounds which appear in CoE are stated to be permanently changed physically. This all points to corruption akin to that of an Elder Dragon – and the motive of corruption: through plants, making them hostile. If the Tower of Nightmares and Fervid Censor hold ties to Mordremoth, then he only affects animals via pollen infection – and though those on Southsun are permanently affected, those by the Tower of Nightmares are not (implying the Fervid Censor is more concentrated corruption).

This all points to corruption through hostility, with a preferred medium of poison and pollen.

-continued in next post-

The Deep Sea Dragon – Similar to Mordremoth, since we know so little we can only base the perosnality after our theories of what’s tied to the DSD, I hold the theory that it and its champions are tied to the krait Prophets. This is supported by a number of things: the Deep Sea Dragon was hibernating near where the krait lived originally; the Blue Orb has an effect which causes the risen to keep their distance (thus far, the dragons and their minions have kept distance from each other except when forced together by the Inquest) – this though requires the belief that the risen are not made because Zhaitan would seek avoiding conflict with another Elder Dragon and senses the DSD’s magic coming from the orb, rather than the orb having a real counter against corruption (it should also be noted that the Blue Orb is of deep water origins and is said to hold “dangers” to it). Not very strong backing, but the implications are there.

If this is so, then the DSD would seek a flooding of the world – if the belief of the krait are accurate to what their “prophets” seek. This then can be viewed as the DSD wanting to cover the world with his minions, as his minions are made by twisted water itself (much similar to Primordus).

In the end, the personalities can be summarized as:

• Zhaitan seeks Immortality and ruling through undeath
• Jormag seeks Power and holds immense hatred
• Kralkatorrik seeks Perfection/is immensely greedy
• Primordus seeks the genocide of all life
• Mordremoth seeks to have plants overpower animals
• DSD seeks to flood the world (with his minions).

The last two are heavy speculation, though.

Very good read Konig. I’d agree with most of what you said. I might differ on a few things with DSD and Mordremoth, but being as they are highly speculative there’s no real point in debating them.

Thanks for the extensive reply!

No, I haven’t actually finished the book, I only read the first 7 chapters, saving the rest for a upcoming flight. The line I quoted simply reminded me of how Zhaitan is void of all personality in the Personal Story and how deep one has to dig to find any semblance of character. But I guess this can be tied back to AN’s overarching problem, the inability to effectively bring their lore to the players in an enjoyable manner. Which I hope the work towards before tackling the other Elder Dragons.

Regarding Zhaitan, you say he wants to rule, right? That makes me wonder: Does he, and by extent the other Elder Dragons, know what their “part” in the world of Tyria is? To absorb magic and go to sleep once their “duty” is fulfilled?

Cheers!

I don’t think they know their ‘’duty ’’ in the World. They are like beast, or plant. A mushroom doesnt know he decay the organic matter for some bacteria and plant, and some bacteria doesnt know they can take the N2 in the air to NH4 on the ground, for the plants. ( The NH4 is change in NO3 before. )

But they do it, because they can and they need it to survive. The little bacteria doesnt care if the plant have is NO3 and us, animals, can eat that plant to have N for our metabolism and our DNA ( and other thing ) , as long as he can take that N2 to make NH4 and survive. It’s the same for dragon : They don’t know the magic in Tyria is saturate and someone must bring it down to an acceptable level ; they just eat it because they can and they need it. ps : Sorry for bad english

To say that ‘regulating’ magic in the world is the Elder Dragon’s duty is like saying it is humanity’s duty to be the most dominant species on Earth. All scientific data presently available (as much as a science fantasy game can give us for scientific data that is) does not point to some higher entity (the Mists, gods, or otherwise) having given the Elder Dragon a specific purpose – in the same view, while religions may claim such there is no scientific data to support some higher entity has determined that humans should rule the Earth.

The Elder Dragons consume magic as their nutrition no different than you and I eat plants and animals. They radiate it no different than you and I take a dump – as foul as that may sound, and though not a directly relevant metaphore (they seem to more “sweat” or “stink” magic out, in more accurate metaphorical sense, rather than go to the bathroom, otherwise they’re all big bedwetters…. heh.).

So their “task” or “duty” in regulating magic holds no innate bearing on their wants and desires – regardless of how animalistic such things may truly end up being.

On that note, I would like to clarify a small statement Bigtony made:

No one knows if magic must be “brought down”. All we know is that when magic rises – and it rises by the Elder Dragons releasing it while sleeping – the Elder Dragons eventually wake when it reaches a certain point. It is fully unknown if it would rise without the Elder Dragons, and it is unknown what the effect of it rising to a point after an Elder Dragons’ waking level would show as. For all we know, there would be no difference in the world except more magic available to use if the Elder Dragons are all eliminated. On the flip side, it is possible that too much magic results in total catastrophe.