Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: Natto.5819

Natto.5819

Now that we know human gods are weaker than they were in GW1, but still have strong magic compared to mortals, this explains who Queen Jenna really is. No human should have magic strong enough to create a barrier around a whole city. If Balthazar can walk among mortals with the help of Lyssa, then she can do it too. I think Queen Jenna is really Lyssa in disguise.

Or Lyssa could have split into her individual selfs, Lyss and Ilya, and Queen Jenna is one of them.

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Posted by: ugrakarma.9416

ugrakarma.9416

I have no idea of the origin of this fixation on this story that Queen Jennah is not herself, but I find it more realistic to give up, apparently, the idea of Anet for racial leaders, it’s something in the style "they came to stay ". at least for a while.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

The human gods are not “weaker than they were in GW1”. Balthazar alone has been weakened. There is nothing to even imply the other gods were weakened.

And there’s nothing to suggest that Jennah is anyone but who she is. Besides, it’d be very, very hard to replace royalty who’s being watched on a near 24/7 basis.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Natto.5819

Natto.5819

Queen Jenna’s power can’t be explained legitimately in lore. No human has that much magical powers. The only explanation is that she’s not human, leading me to believe she is a human god in disguise. Mesmers have the power of illusion, so it’s easy for them to trick people. A god mesmer would be more powerful.

Balthazar being weakened follows lore with the elder dragon gods sucking magic power from them when they woke up. That’s why he was so mad at them.

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Posted by: Djahlat.9610

Djahlat.9610

Queen Jenna’s power can’t be explained legitimately in lore. No human has that much magical powers.

that’s just not true, we have no idea how much power a human can wield. She’s just a very powerful mesmer, I don’t see how that’s so inexplicable.

@OP I’d be more enclined to believe Countess Anise would be Lyssa. Her or Livia, who knows

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Queen Jenna’s power can’t be explained legitimately in lore. No human has that much magical powers. The only explanation is that she’s not human, leading me to believe she is a human god in disguise. Mesmers have the power of illusion, so it’s easy for them to trick people. A god mesmer would be more powerful.

You’ve… not seen what Xera can do, have you? She easily outclasses what Jennah does a dozen fold, and she is 100% human.

Balthazar being weakened follows lore with the elder dragon gods sucking magic power from them when they woke up. That’s why he was so mad at them.

This comment has absolutely no lore backing at all. The gods left the world of Tyria over a thousand years ago, and the Elder Dragons only began waking up a couple centuries ago, and are incapable of taking magic from the Mists let alone beyond the Mists.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Natto.5819

Natto.5819

In lore, the gods gave magic in small amounts humans. There used to be giant races, but it was said the gods took away their powers because they had too much magic. With Queen Jenna showing how much power she has, it looks like it exceeds even what Balthazar was capable of.

A level 80 Elemantalist has a max range of 1500 for spells. Queen Jenna cast a barrier that covered a whole city. If that is the case, then the elder dragons would be targetting her as a huge walking battery. But because she’s a god, she can probably conceal her magical energy from the dragons.

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Posted by: Djahlat.9610

Djahlat.9610

In lore, the gods gave magic in small amounts humans. There used to be giant races, but it was said the gods took away their powers because they had too much magic. With Queen Jenna showing how much power she has, it looks like it exceeds even what Balthazar was capable of.

A level 80 Elemantalist has a max range of 1500 for spells. Queen Jenna cast a barrier that covered a whole city. If that is the case, then the elder dragons would be targetting her as a huge walking battery. But because she’s a god, she can probably conceal her magical energy from the dragons.

You’re mixing so many things I don’t even know where to start;
a) you seem to be talking about the Giganticus Lupicus, and there’s no indication the gods meddled with their magic except through the bloodstones that seeped out less magic than the overwhelming excess of magic Abaddon granted to humans because it caused way too much damage.
b) Jennah already proved how incredibly powerful she has in Edge of Destiny when she created a huge illusion to replicate Kralkatorrik, which made all his minions go away, while simultaneously maintaining a spell on a few hundred charrs and humans that petrified them and made them seem like branded so the Kralkatorrik minions wouldn’t attack them.
c) in-game mechanics have nothing to do with lore. Elementalists have same range/animations/particle effects from level1, your point makes no sense.

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Posted by: Natto.5819

Natto.5819

In lore, the gods gave magic in small amounts humans. There used to be giant races, but it was said the gods took away their powers because they had too much magic. With Queen Jenna showing how much power she has, it looks like it exceeds even what Balthazar was capable of.

A level 80 Elemantalist has a max range of 1500 for spells. Queen Jenna cast a barrier that covered a whole city. If that is the case, then the elder dragons would be targetting her as a huge walking battery. But because she’s a god, she can probably conceal her magical energy from the dragons.

You’re mixing so many things I don’t even know where to start;
a) you seem to be talking about the Giganticus Lupicus, and there’s no indication the gods meddled with their magic except through the bloodstones that seeped out less magic than the overwhelming excess of magic Abaddon granted to humans because it caused way too much damage.
b) Jennah already proved how incredibly powerful she has in Edge of Destiny when she created a huge illusion to replicate Kralkatorrik, which made all his minions go away, while simultaneously maintaining a spell on a few hundred charrs and humans that petrified them and made them seem like branded so the Kralkatorrik minions wouldn’t attack them.
c) in-game mechanics have nothing to do with lore. Elementalists have same range/animations/particle effects from level1, your point makes no sense.

a – There more other giant races that had access to powerful magics. I think this was said in the Jotun storyline.

b – Thank you for reminding me about how powerful Queen Jenna is. That is more proof she is not human.

c – With your thinking, then a White Mantle Elementalist should have been able to cast a city wide Meteor Shower if they wanted to destroy Divinity Reach.

Certain things happen in lore to advance story. Charr had a type if ritual that cast Metor Shower on Ascalon, but that doesn’t mean 1 charr was a god. It was titan god power that was used. So it could be said that Queen Jenna “borrowed” Lyssa’s power. But again, the human gods didn’t want humans to have access to so much magic, so Lyssa wouldn’t grant Queen Jenna that much magic. Looking at all things lore, the only explanation for her power is that she’s a god herself.

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Posted by: perilisk.1874

perilisk.1874

And there’s nothing to suggest that Jennah is anyone but who she is. Besides, it’d be very, very hard to replace royalty who’s being watched on a near 24/7 basis.

Unless you have the support of the watchers. Not to suggest that the Shining Blade isn’t loyal to the crown, but if the last heir of the royal line was lost or incapacitated somehow, and a beloved deity stepped in to ensure that a White Mantle traitor couldn’t take advantage of political upheaval to seize power, the few in the know would probably be okay with the deception. And Chekov’s locket would be the final proof.

Also makes you wonder what her relationship is to the Mesmer Collective. Secret priesthood and elite forces?

Ceterum censeo Sentim Punicam esse delendam

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Posted by: OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

Queen Jenna’s power can’t be explained legitimately in lore. No human has that much magical powers. The only explanation is that she’s not human, leading me to believe she is a human god in disguise. Mesmers have the power of illusion, so it’s easy for them to trick people. A god mesmer would be more powerful.

I beg to differ. There’s some theories going around that the keystone is in fact in DR. Queen Jennah, being (supposedly) of Royal Descent could be channeling energy from said keystone (possibly without even knowing about it), which would amplify her powers way beyond what any regular human could hope to achieve. We can see in game what a mesmer souped up on Bloodstone power is capable of with Xera, so I wouldn’t put what Jennah did in episode 4 out of the reach of a regular human

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Posted by: The Greyhawk.9107

The Greyhawk.9107

c – With your thinking, then a White Mantle Elementalist should have been able to cast a city wide Meteor Shower if they wanted to destroy Divinity Reach.

That doesn’t make kitten any sense. Djahlat’s point there was that Game Mechanics=/Lore, which you had been trying to use as an argument. Also, you didn’t answer Konig’s counter about Xera, who was more powerful than Jennah. Was Xera also a god?

Hate is Fuel.

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Posted by: Mickey Frogeater.1470

Mickey Frogeater.1470

Xera became that powerful due to Bloodstone Shards.

Considering Balthazar needed to drain an entire Bloodstone it’s obvious that he wasn’t unspeakably strong before he absorbed the Bloodstone’s energies due to whatever dimmed his light. I’d assume the same would be the case with Lyssa.

For Lyssa to surpass Xera she would have to consume a lot of Magic.

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: perilisk.1874

perilisk.1874

Queen Jenna’s power can’t be explained legitimately in lore. No human has that much magical powers. The only explanation is that she’s not human, leading me to believe she is a human god in disguise. Mesmers have the power of illusion, so it’s easy for them to trick people. A god mesmer would be more powerful.

I beg to differ. There’s some theories going around that the keystone is in fact in DR. Queen Jennah, being (supposedly) of Royal Descent could be channeling energy from said keystone (possibly without even knowing about it), which would amplify her powers way beyond what any regular human could hope to achieve. We can see in game what a mesmer souped up on Bloodstone power is capable of with Xera, so I wouldn’t put what Jennah did in episode 4 out of the reach of a regular human

Of course, a god could also absorb energy from the keystone, and it would be deliberate.

Ceterum censeo Sentim Punicam esse delendam

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Posted by: The Greyhawk.9107

The Greyhawk.9107

But you didn’t know that this was the case for Lyssa, we don’t know that she was “dimmed” like Balthy was. We don’t know that the actual Lyssa needs bloodstone magic to surpass Xera, though perhaps the human Jennah might.

Hate is Fuel.

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Posted by: Squee.7829

Squee.7829

Jenna is Lyssa, Anise is Livia, Taimi is the real Lazarus (somehow) and my mini pet is the Deep Sea Dragon in disguise spying on all the things I do.

I get it. The Lazarus/Balthazaar reveal kinda threw a wrench into all logical expectations. Anyone can be anyone. But I think we need to calm down with throwing all the false identities around for a moment. Some people might actually just be who they really are.

Leader and sole member of the “Bring Penguins to Tyria” movement.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Some people just have higher magical capabilities than others. The spellcaster PC is pretty far up there, but not the strongest – albeit possibly one of the best around at killing things. Jennah’s speciality is different – she’s best at illusions, counter-magic, and protection, she’s not very good at actually dealing damage.

Also, one thing to note is that “Jennah’s” barrier around Divinity’s Reach may not be entirely her own doing – she says she’s made preparations for defenses, and those preparations might well include having other mesmers standing by to reinforce her spell when she gives the signal. In fact, if you look at the bubble from lake Doric, there are actually swirls of blue in there as well as purple – it’s possible that after the initial establishment, there’s guardians as well as mesmers maintaining the bubble. (That said, mesmer magic does sometimes have blue in the ‘weaker’ parts of the spell, so the blue bits might just be weak spots.)

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Jokubas.4265

Jokubas.4265

I’ve speculated about Jennah and Anise being Lyssa before, but I honestly don’t know.

What I’ll say is that we definitely know Anise is hiding something, even if it is just her age.
During the World Summit, there was this exchange:

Canach: I have a thick skin. I also learn from my missteps. For example, you fooled me once with your illusions, so now I wonder if you’re truly as young as-
Countess Anise: Do not finish that sentence. Not here, not ever.

It isn’t the first time, though. During The Trial of Julius Zamon, she said something normal and then backpedaled, even though it was innocuous on its own.

Countess Anise: Trial by combat? Who’d have thought it? I’m surprised Zamon even knows it’s an option. There hasn’t been one in over fifty years…or, at least, that’s what I’ve been told.

Anise is almost certainly older than she appears, but that could just be an aged sorceress being vain.

Her dialogue throughout The Dragon’s Reach: Part 2 is extremely suspicious and openly disturbing (saying she doesn’t care about noble intentions for instance), but I’m not going to assume anything right now.

As for Jennah being watched, that actually has been called into question before, during the Closing Ceremony.

Queen Jennah: Forgive the deception, Logan. Countess Anise’s security measures depended on as few people as possible knowing about them.
Logan Thackeray: I’m glad you’re safe, but I’m your cap—a Seraph captain. How can I serve if I’m not informed?
Countess Anise: Don’t be petulant. My job is to protect the queen from her enemies. Yours is to seek out and destroy those enemies.

So there’s been at least one point in which very few people knew of Jennah’s true whereabouts, likely Anise and the most trusted of her Shining Blade (if not just Anise). I want to make it very clear that I don’t believe this happened, but just as an example, Anise totally could have offed Jennah at some point and replaced her, and since she and her loyal agents keep information from everyone else, no one would know.

Jennah’s state of being hasn’t really been that suspicious outside of that one instance, but her power is definitely of note. She managed to create an illusion of Kralkatorrik so convincing that even the Branded fell for it, and that also included an illusion of branding the defenders so convincing that they truly believed they had been branded. I think it would be hard to imagine an illusion more powerful than that.

I can believe that Jennah is simply naturally that powerful (even though I think that’s a risky precedent if you don’t want your story to escalate out of control), but it certainly sets up the possibility that there’s a reason she’s that powerful.

The final note I’ll make about Jennah, is that while Anise is generally the much more aggressive and suspicious one, Jennah has her moments. It’s tradition to blame Logan for Snaff’s death, and I did as well, until someone pointed out specific quotes to me from the novel.

“You are bonded to me, now, Logan Thackeray,” she pronounced, speaking to everyone. “If ever I am in mortal peril, I will call to you, and you must come to me.”

As Eir explained her plan, Logan stepped back from the others. A sudden voice spoke in his head: Come to me, Logan Thackeray. I am in Ebonhawke. I have need of you.

“She’s calling to me,” Logan muttered. “Queen Jennah is calling to me. . . .” His knees buckled, and he dropped to the floor. “No!”

Logan has no choice but to follow Queen Jennah’s commands. It wasn’t a request, it was a magical compulsion. Also of note, it was after this that Jennah created her unprecedentedly powerful illusion and saved the day herself. She didn’t even need him to be there. Maybe Jennah just didn’t know if she’d be able to pull it off, but magically forcing someone to do your bidding and causing them to abandon their allies is not a bright moment for any character.

Of course, alongside all of this is the Krytan royal locket mentioned during the Concordia Incident. Narratively speaking, it’s unlikely you’d bring something like that up if it wasn’t relevant. I certainly remember it being sort of jarring when I did the chapter. Among mostly standard dialogue, the Magister decides to be specific about one particular artifact for no particular reason, even admitting they shouldn’t be talking about it. This heavily implies that needing to know the current heir to the throne of Kryta will become relevant at the some point.

(edited by Jokubas.4265)

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: Jaken.6801

Jaken.6801

The human gods are not “weaker than they were in GW1”. Balthazar alone has been weakened. There is nothing to even imply the other gods were weakened.

And there’s nothing to suggest that Jennah is anyone but who she is. Besides, it’d be very, very hard to replace royalty who’s being watched on a near 24/7 basis.

We only know that “Balthazar” is weakened, based on his appearence, words and actions.
We don’t know anything about the state of the other gods.
It appears that they can still give out blessings in some form (we can see that at their shrines and thanks to their followers), however we don’t what powerlevels we are talking about.

As for Jennah, I actually wouldn’t think that it is impossible. I mean, the power of god, more the one of illusions shouldn’t have any problem to replace or work with anyone for their own goal.

More so, if it’s not only Balthazar who is weakened.

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

Besides, it’d be very, very hard to replace royalty who’s being watched on a near 24/7 basis.

For the goddess of illusions? We must have very different understanding of the word “hard”.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

she’s not very good at actually dealing damage.

Except for the time she one-shots three Mantle in a row?

I don’t think it’s that she’s worse at doing damage than defending, I think it’s that she prefers defending to attacking, as a matter of political necessity. That difference in experience might mean her plot-altering powers are all defensive, but if nothing else, she’s at least on par with the PC where offensive magic is concerned.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Amadan.9451

Amadan.9451

she’s not very good at actually dealing damage.

Except for the time she one-shots three Mantle in a row?

I don’t think it’s that she’s worse at doing damage than defending, I think it’s that she prefers defending to attacking, as a matter of political necessity. That difference in experience might mean her plot-altering powers are all defensive, but if nothing else, she’s at least on par with the PC where offensive magic is concerned.

except mesmers are the worst class at dealing dmage in this game, let alone one shot people like it doesn’t matter.
I would certainly enjoy Jennah’s power as a mesmer for once, instead of just sharing boons to every other better damage dealers I walk with.

I kind of want to believe that Jennah is a goddes herself, but the al everybody is someone else is getting old very fast.

just bring back the gods if you have to, but please make them return in a less confusing way

Looking for a gay friendly guild?
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Posted by: Djahlat.9610

Djahlat.9610

she’s not very good at actually dealing damage.

Except for the time she one-shots three Mantle in a row?

I don’t think it’s that she’s worse at doing damage than defending, I think it’s that she prefers defending to attacking, as a matter of political necessity. That difference in experience might mean her plot-altering powers are all defensive, but if nothing else, she’s at least on par with the PC where offensive magic is concerned.

except mesmers are the worst class at dealing dmage in this game, let alone one shot people like it doesn’t matter.
I would certainly enjoy Jennah’s power as a mesmer for once, instead of just sharing boons to every other better damage dealers I walk with.

Once again, in-game mechanics and lore capabilities have nothing to do with each other, stop trying to make them the same

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Posted by: RyuDragnier.9476

RyuDragnier.9476

Or Lyssa could have split into her individual selfs, Lyss and Ilya, and Queen Jenna is one of them.

I have a feeling this is the case, with Anise being the other twin.

[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

she’s not very good at actually dealing damage.

Except for the time she one-shots three Mantle in a row?

Valid point, although we don’t know how powerful those guys were. Could have been that she had a specialised Mantra of Pain charged – and that’s why she spared the fourth guy. We know mesmers can spike effectively, they just aren’t great at sustained damage on bosses (and golems).

Either way, she fights offensively during the rest of the instance, and her damage output isn’t anything to write home about.

Nevertheless, I think there are ample explanations for Jennah’s abilities:

1) Tyrian history is littered with spellcasters that pulled off exceptional feats – Tahnnakai Temple has several, but not the only examples, and most of the examples we do have come from a time when magic is weaker than it is today. We also see (and fight) some exceptionally powerful human, sylvari, and Flame Legion charr spellcasters ingame. Some NPCs simply are just that powerful.

2) As I noted above… do we really know that the things Jennah is credited with, she pulled off alone? The city dome could have been the work of several mesmers, and possibly guardians as well, working together. The Kralkatorrik illusion – she had at least Anise present, and the other Shining Blade might have included a coterie of additional mesmers.

3) As the queen of Kryta, she may have access to artifacts that boost her power. There’s no evidence that the throne-stone is related to the Bloodstones, but it has been hinted that it’s not just some random rock. Heck, we probably can’t rule out the possibility that Jennah has been benefiting from the Scepter of Orr.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

(edited by draxynnic.3719)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

a – There more other giant races that had access to powerful magics. I think this was said in the Jotun storyline.

Thrulnn the Lost is lying on many accounts. The Six never favored them nor did they ever worship them, and the jotun did not fall from power due to confusion from losing magic but rather their loss of magic was caused by civil wars where they targeted their own scholars and sages.

b – Thank you for reminding me about how powerful Queen Jenna is. That is more proof she is not human.

I guess that makes Lord Odran, Sybetha, and Sorcerer Lord Kree who did “impossible” things also not mortal.

Nothing says that what Jennah did is impossible for a human. Given the fact that the raid bosses do greater or equally great things, like Matthias altering the local weather spontaneously or Xera permanently reshaping an entire castle. Or how about Palawa Joko.

There’s dozens of “legendary spellcasters” who did near improbable feats while being mortals.

That isn’t to say Jennah doesn’t have help from something, but there are many more explanations than “she is not who she says she is”.

c – With your thinking, then a White Mantle Elementalist should have been able to cast a city wide Meteor Shower if they wanted to destroy Divinity Reach.

You’re confusing “abilities of a powerful individual” with “standard average of power”.

The average person is an idiot, but this doesn’t mean geniuses are non-humans.

But again, the human gods didn’t want humans to have access to so much magic, so Lyssa wouldn’t grant Queen Jenna that much magic. Looking at all things lore, the only explanation for her power is that she’s a god herself.

Says nothing ever. What the gods didn’t want was wars caused by greed over obtaining more magic – something they failed miserably given that the Guild Wars often occurred for power over the bloodstones.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

a – There more other giant races that had access to powerful magics. I think this was said in the Jotun storyline.

Thrulnn the Lost is lying on many accounts. The Six never favored them nor did they ever worship them, and the jotun did not fall from power due to confusion from losing magic but rather their loss of magic was caused by civil wars where they targeted their own scholars and sages.

To be fair to Thruln the Lost, while he’s not telling the truth*, he may not be lying. It’s possible the story was changed by one of his predecessors, and Thruln the Lost is faithfully repeating what he learned.

*The norn ‘defeat our ancient foes’ story arc involves meeting the ghost of a Thruln who saw the collapse of jotun civilisation unfold – hence how we know that Thruln the Lost’s story is wrong. While there may be some elements of truth to it, it was the fault of the jotuns that their society collapsed.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Natto.5819

Natto.5819

The idea that a human can have god-like powers because of an object is a legit lore theory. But I think in most all cases, the human who gained such power was also transformed physically in some way. A powerful mesmer could create an illusion to cover up this transformation, so I don’t think Queen Jenna doing so is an option we can rule out.

But, ever since Anet writers introduces the idea that a god had his powers reduced due to the Elder Dragons, you can’t deny that with the current lore, other gods could be weakened and be hiding among humans in disguise. Keep in mind that the best way to hide someone’s true identity (in this case a god in human form), is to not allow yourself to show your powers. When Scarlet attack Divinity Reach, Queen Jenna would had to hold back her power from single handedly repel the attack. But with Divinity Reach under attack again by the White Mantle, she had no choice but to use her full powers to protect the city. And even then, only a few people saw her put up the barrier.

As for Lyssa, remember that this goddess is really two beings. Maybe she split herself and one guards the keystone Divinity Reach in, while the other is queen?

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I honestly wouldn’t call Jennah’s capability “god-like”. More than your standard human for sure, but not on par to a god – it wasn’t even as much as what Balthazar showed, really, since he wiped out 20-some White Mantle (and destroyers in another instance) in one go.

And no human who used an object to obtain more power ever changed physically, with the exception of the few humans who embedded bloodstone shards into their body (Matthias and Caudecus).

And nothing in this instance has implied that it was the Elder Dragons who weakened Balthazar – I don’t get why people keep thinking that.

Rather than saying Jennah is a goddess or is Lazarus or whatever, it’s far more likely that Jennah has the Scepter of Orr with her, as we know that Livia had obtained it but no longer did by Sea of Sorrows (could have given it to royal family), or that magical defenses were built into the city to allow a perpetual giant dome to protect it from a siege (it was, after all, built after another city was sunk beneath a tidal wave).

And if there’s a bloodstone within DR (again, another unfounded, unsupported theory) that would be enough to let Jennah do what she has done since Xera did more with less access to a bloodstone.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Walhalla.5473

Walhalla.5473

For the “Dragons weaking Gods” Theory, I have one question.

How?

The Gods are beings from the mists or even another world who left Tyria around 1330 years ago which was called the Exodus. They had some communications with Tyria but weren’t present in the world. And after Abaddon got killed and Kormir joined their ranks they also cut their last ties to Tyria.

So they would be quite far away from the Dragons since they were either travelling through the mists or messing up with another world.

And being made out of magic doesn’t mean that the Elder Dragons can consume them/their magic. We already have beings made of magic that can’t be corrupted or consumed in the game and I would suggest that the Gods are also immune.

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: RabbitUp.8294

RabbitUp.8294

Queen Jenna’s power can’t be explained legitimately in lore. No human has that much magical powers. The only explanation is that she’s not human, leading me to believe she is a human god in disguise. Mesmers have the power of illusion, so it’s easy for them to trick people. A god mesmer would be more powerful.

Balthazar being weakened follows lore with the elder dragon gods sucking magic power from them when they woke up. That’s why he was so mad at them.

Balthazar is not just weakened, he is no longer a god.

If it was just about dragons sucking the gods magic, you would see all 6 in Tyria sniffing bloodstone dust, not just Balthazar.

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: Djahlat.9610

Djahlat.9610

Balthazar is not just weakened, he is no longer a god.

If it was just about dragons sucking the gods magic, you would see all 6 in Tyria sniffing bloodstone dust, not just Balthazar.

We don’t know that he’s no longer a god. In fact, I’d be enclined to say that he still is a god (or kept his divinity) because we know Divine Magic is immune to Dragon Corruption, and the fact that he didn’t explode when he absorbed Jormag’s and Primordus’ energies shows he must have purified them with his divinity.
For all we know, it might have been the alliance of Dhuum and Menzies that weakened him (he says “they” dimmed his light)

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Dragon energies are only corruptive when the Elder Dragon actively choses such. Given that Primordus (and likely Jormag) were incapacitated by the machine, they wouldn’t have corrupted even a mortal.

Also take note that we take in a bit of both Primordus’ and Jormag’s energies in order to fight Temur and Tegan, so the magic isn’t naturally counteractive with itself, just to the Elder Dragons themselves (and potentially their minions given the destroyer wipeout).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

But, ever since Anet writers introduces the idea that a god had his powers reduced due to the Elder Dragons, you can’t deny that with the current lore, other gods could be weakened and be hiding among humans in disguise.

The possibility? Sure. In fact, there is precedent – both Lyssa and Dwayna have disguised themselves as mortals in the past.

However, the inability to disprove a thing does not prove the thing is true.

From what I can see, your argument has the following logic.
A) Balthazar is depowered and disguised
B) Therefore the other gods are depowered and disguised
C) Jennah uses magic outside mortal bounds
D) Jennah’s magic falls within Lyssa’s domain.
E) Therefore Jennah is Lyssa.

There are two flaws in your argument.

The first, lesser flaw is that B does not necessarily follow A. There’s nothing in E5 to indicate that Balthazar’s position is not unique among the gods, and in fact, a possible reading of the final instance dialogue is that it was actually the other gods that caused Balthazar’s fall. One could conclude from the presence of Lyssa’s mirror that she supported his endeavour, but that’s not necessarily the case – the mirror could have been stolen, given as a gift prior to his fall, or could even be a backhanded gift intended to rub salt into the wound that Balthazar took good advantage of. Even if Lyssa is supporting Balthazar, this actually goes against your argument – if all the gods are so weakened that they have to disguise themselves as mortals, and Lyssa is disguised as Jennah, then destroying Tyria could well finish Lyssa off.

The second, greater flaw is that there is good reason to believe C is false.

First, there is precedent for exceptional humans pulling off similar great feats of magic. Tahmu, the heroes of Tahnnakai Temple, Koro Sagewind, and so on. Now, many of them paid with their lives, but they lived at times when magic was a lot weaker than it is now. (And this is without considering the possibility that Doric’s line has greater than average magical potential)

Second, there is precedent for multiple spellcasters working together to create a more powerful effect. A particularly pertinent example is in Sea of Sorrows, where at one point a number of guardians cooperate to create – you guessed it – a protective shield. What’s impressive if you assume it’s one person might be quite pedestrian if Jennah had half the Mesmer Collective waiting for her signal.

Third, there is precedent for a magical artifact or device to be able to generate effects that the creator could not produce directly. The Searing Cauldron copies, God’s Vengeance at Fort Aspenwood, and many asura devices fall into this category. Jennah mentions having made preparations – this dome wasn’t something she’s pulled off on the fly – so it’s entirely possible that she had something enchanted so that if she starts creating a protective shield, the device will amplify and expand it into the city dome we saw. Heck, it’s possible that this particular artifact is an older part of the defences of Divinity’s Reach than Jennah’s reign, and it’s the real reason why the central section has a domed roof.

Fourth, none of the three possibilities above are mutually exclusive. It could be a combination of all three.

Therefore, there are plenty of reasons to believe that what Jennah has done is within the bounds of what a mortal, but royal, spellcaster might be able to achieve with the appropriate preparation and resources.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318

jennah’s power is definately way more then i’ve ever seen. I can understand things like bloodstone or another external magic source. But then again logan has massive magic power as well. his shield did defend against a quite massive explosion of the giatn earth elemental in the tutorial mode.

So it’s not impossible i guess. but yeah jennah is on a completely different scale. technically the more impressive part is maintaing that massive barrier against damage and sustaining it. I figure the barrier went down after u defeated caudacus. but to do that your pc had to help in the battle at lake doric and prepare for an raid at caudecus castle. so even doing this for 10 minutes is incredibly kittening impressive.

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

You’re still assuming she maintained it alone. It could be being maintained by some sort of artifact, or she could have some sort of collective of mesmers maintaining it for her.

Possibly even reinforced by guardians, since blue patches can be seen in the dome when viewed from Lake Doric. Both mesmer and guardian seem to be professions that humans seem to be particularly strong in (they invented the latter, while every Mesmer Collective member we currently know of is human).

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: Ngeluz.4860

Ngeluz.4860

Now that we know human gods are weaker than they were in GW1, but still have strong magic compared to mortals, this explains who Queen Jenna really is. No human should have magic strong enough to create a barrier around a whole city. If Balthazar can walk among mortals with the help of Lyssa, then she can do it too. I think Queen Jenna is really Lyssa in disguise.

Or Lyssa could have split into her individual selfs, Lyss and Ilya, and Queen Jenna is one of them.

I honestly suspected of it of it, I thought of it and even thought that Lyssa is split in Queen Jenna and Countess Anise… but at this point its anyone’s guess. Honestly if its true or not Im very exited about this god walking in GW2…so much I started playing GW1 again with some guildies from GW2 to farm points for our Hall!

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: Natto.5819

Natto.5819

I just retouched on who Lyssa is, and it seems I misunderstood a key part of who she is. Lyssa isn’t the combination of 2 people, but rather a set of twin goddesses who are referred to as one being. Also looking into events of the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance, it’s also stated in lore that Lyssa isn’t dead. Combine with Elder Dragon lore, we know that the gods were weakened because the dragons consume magic.

Looking back to Queen Jenna, she is either one of the Lyssa twins, or BOTH Ilya and Lyss disguise themselves as the queen, and the real Jenna is safe somewhere in the floating wizard castle (new theory!). The power to confuse Elder Dragon minions, the power to create extraordinary barriers, it all points to a being with god-like powers.

Keep in mind that Lyssa is different from the other gods. Her focus is to help humans and make them happy.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Combine with Elder Dragon lore, we know that the gods were weakened because the dragons consume magic.

How?

Lyssa physically left the world 1,120 years prior to any Elder Dragon woke up – all the gods did. How could the Elder Dragons, which cannot influence the Mists without stealing powers from individuals like the norn havrouns, weaken the gods?

In all the claims of “the Elder Dragons weakened the gods because they consume magic!” this obvious and directly stated fact is always ignored.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: Natto.5819

Natto.5819

I get the sense that Elder Dragons consume magic, like we breathe oxygen. They just absorb it from the world. Sure Zhaitan ate magic items, but I think that was more like a supplement to speed up his power levels. Like Goku and Vegeta eating those beans to gain his strength back.

It seems that with the Elder Dragons slowly waking up, they absorb more and more magic from the world. The Six probably had their magic slowly drained over time, as that is their connection to our world. Think of a water balloon that’s not tied tight. The water may drip out 1 drop at a time, but 200 years later, the water balloon is half the size.

Balthazar himself said that he had his powers taken. He wanted it back, so he went after Jormag and Primordus to take theirs. Yes he never says directly who took his powers, but one can safely assume that it would take a strong enemy to do so. For this, I’m leaning towards the Elder Dragons and their natural ability to inhale magical energies. Another option could be Balthazar’s brother Menzies somehow took his powers, but I don’t think Anet would make the story that complicated.

The Elder Dragon route makes the most sense, lore-wise and storytelling-wise. They consume magic, which could lead to the Six being weakened. It could also explain why no one has seen or heard from them in hundreds of years. But if another option like Menzies is explained, that would be too bad, since it could also bring back the Fissure of Woe.

Lastly, I have faith that Anet writers wouldn’t pull a deus ex machina on us. They wouldn’t let the story get too complicated to have to rely on that.

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

That’s just your theory, however, so you can’t state it as proven fact in support of another theory.

We can easily point out other interpretations:

1) By and large, the dragons have only been seen to drain magic energy from Tyria. The gods are not in Tyria. Therefore, such leeching is unlikely to affect them. You claim that they retain a link to Tyria through which their energy can be drained – however, there is no evidence that such a link remains.

2) As you say, there are other possible causes for Balthazar’s depowering. Menzies. The other gods deciding he needs to be taken down a few pegs for whatever reason. Some other threat we don’t know about.

3) We’ve been told why the Six have been silent – they want humanity to learn to stand on its own feet rather than having the gods hold their collective hands.

4) You have faith in ArenaNet not making the story overly complicated? Overly complicated is what they do. We could probably list dozens of plot threads that have been left hanging because ArenaNet let things get more complicated than they could handle.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

in Lore

Posted by: perilisk.1874

perilisk.1874

Balthazar himself said that he had his powers taken. He wanted it back, so he went after Jormag and Primordus to take theirs. Yes he never says directly who took his powers, but one can safely assume that it would take a strong enemy to do so. For this, I’m leaning towards the Elder Dragons and their natural ability to inhale magical energies.

Not buying it. Balthazar was massively kittened about whoever took his power. Primordus, however, he treated more as a means to an end, not the end itself. Plus, well, it’s boring. And Primordus has been more or less been put on a bus, so unless Balthazar is going to gank him offscreen, I don’t see the story headed that way.

Another option could be Balthazar’s brother Menzies somehow took his powers, but I don’t think Anet would make the story that complicated.

Given that Grenth already proves that gods can be deposed by usurpers, and given that the fight between Menzies and Balthazar over control of the domain of War was the basis behind core GW1 endgame content and also played a role in Nightfall, I don’t see exactly how it’s complicated. The Balthazar/Lazarus Scooby Doo plot was unnecessarily complicated. Balthazar being usurped by Menzies is just taking an obvious followup on an existing plot thread in the greater GW1/GW2 story.

Ceterum censeo Sentim Punicam esse delendam

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: ugrakarma.9416

ugrakarma.9416

Enthusiasts of the “pseudo Jenna” theory have to wonder first why it should be someone else.

Second, it is completely banal in history that royalty is created to exceed commoners in various areas, especially in studies. The anet only changed the
“knowledge” for “magic,” We can assume that
Queen Jennah was trained from childhood to be an exceptional Mesmer, just as a few medievel kings dominated dozens of languages still young.

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I get the sense that Elder Dragons consume magic, like we breathe oxygen. They just absorb it from the world. Sure Zhaitan ate magic items, but I think that was more like a supplement to speed up his power levels. Like Goku and Vegeta eating those beans to gain his strength back.

It seems that with the Elder Dragons slowly waking up, they absorb more and more magic from the world. The Six probably had their magic slowly drained over time, as that is their connection to our world. Think of a water balloon that’s not tied tight. The water may drip out 1 drop at a time, but 200 years later, the water balloon is half the size.

While I would disagree with it being like we “breathe oxygen” (the Elder Dragons release it in sleep only as far as we’re aware, that would be like if we only breathed in while awake, and only exhaled while asleep), the key phase is your second sentence:

They just absorb it from the world.

The Six have not been on the world since they woke (began consuming magic), only while they were asleep (while they were exuding magic).

So by your following line of thought, the Six Gods would have been getting stronger and stronger prior to their leaving, not weaker.

Furthermore, there is nothing to even indicate your conclusion of “that is their connection to the world” if the “their” is referring to the Six Gods.

Balthazar himself said that he had his powers taken. He wanted it back, so he went after Jormag and Primordus to take theirs. Yes he never says directly who took his powers, but one can safely assume that it would take a strong enemy to do so. For this, I’m leaning towards the Elder Dragons and their natural ability to inhale magical energies.

Balthazar showed some very clear hatred to those who weakened him, but treated Primordus as nothing but a means to an end. Primordus was far from the goal. Yes, he wants his power back, or at the very least he wants revenge against those who took his power, but to get his revenge he needed new power and that’s the purpose the bloodstone and Primordus was serving (he got Jormag’s magic as an added bonus).

Another option could be Balthazar’s brother Menzies somehow took his powers, but I don’t think Anet would make the story that complicated.

Honestly, saying “the Elder Dragons took the Six Gods’ magic while they were in another world” or “the Elder Dragons absorbed the Six Gods’ magic while asleeping and otherwise exuding magic” is far more complicated than “Menzies finally won the centuries/millenias long war”.

Besides, as drax said, there are so many convoluted plots that ArenaNet has made that they stopped making sense or have yet to continue them. I mean, if you really look at it, they made a huge complicated argument for why sylvari were not dragon minions, and never un-complicated it or answered these complications when they revealed that they were, leaving a dozen contradictions.

Hell, the whole “Lazarus is actually not Lazarus” was needless complication. If they had no interest in complicated plots, they would have had Balthazar appear in a pillar of fire instead of Lazarus at the end of episode 1.

It could also explain why no one has seen or heard from them in hundreds of years.

You mean when ignoring the explanation we had gotten years ago for their ceasing of communication. We have an explanation, but everyone decides to ignore what we’ve been told and proclaim “there is no explanation!”

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Lastly, I have faith that Anet writers wouldn’t pull a deus ex machina on us. They wouldn’t let the story get too complicated to have to rely on that.

Do you know what a dues ex machina is? Because the reason for Balthazar’s weakening is not going to turn his appearance into a dues ex machina.

“Dues ex machina” refers to a storytelling device that means an unexplained, unforeshadowed plot device (individual or device or event) comes in and solves an old conflict to end a narrative.

Balthazar did not come out of nowhere (while him being Lazarus was without clues, it was not without prior establishment); he did not instantly solve a conflict (even though it ended in the same episode as his reveal, he had been around since episode 1; even then, it was the Pact Commander thwarting Balthazar that solved the old conflict); and most importantly, he did not end the narrative as he created a new conflict.

Balthazar’s appearance was shoddy writing – and that’s being kind – but it was a far cry from a dues ex machina. If you want a dues ex machina, the closest thing ArenaNet put in of such in GW2 is the sudden revelation of what Mordremoth’s weakness is. But even that isn’t a true dues ex machina, since we had been told that he had a weakness beforehand.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

While I would disagree with it being like we “breathe oxygen” (the Elder Dragons release it in sleep only as far as we’re aware, that would be like if we only breathed in while awake, and only exhaled while asleep), the key phase is your second sentence:

They just absorb it from the world.

The Six have not been on the world since they woke (began consuming magic), only while they were asleep (while they were exuding magic).

So by your following line of thought, the Six Gods would have been getting stronger and stronger prior to their leaving, not weaker.

To expand further on this:

Magic itself has been getting stronger on Tyria since the gods left. Right now, it’s at the strongest it’s been since the last time the dragons were awake. While the dragons are absorbing magic from the environment, in the current circumstances they don’t even seem to be able to absorb it fast enough to prevent the ambient magic levels from rising, which suggests that they’re not exactly pulling in magic with such a high suction force that they’re able to drain other powerful magic entities that aren’t even present on Tyria, even if the artifacts and temples they’ve left behind establish some form of link.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

in Lore

Posted by: Natto.5819

Natto.5819

The Six left the human world, yet their powers are still felt. That, coming from Anet, indicates that just being in the Mists doesn’t mean their magic is contained. Think of radiation from a nuclear rod. You put it in a normal plastic air tight container, and the energy still goes through. I feel magic from the gods acts in this sense. They’re on another plain of existence, and yet magic coming from them passes through dimensions. Going off this idea is where I believe that the Elder Dragons can in fact consume a part of the Six’s powers.

*note – I know that thick enough material can contain radiation. My point being that being separated by some type of physical object doesn’t mean you stop it from going through.

As for dues ex machina, I was saying that I have faith that Anet wouldn’t write themselves into too deep kitten to have to rely on one later. Yes the story got complicated by Balthazar appearing as a Laz, but to throw in too many angles lore-wise, and a writer’s option is to either use a dues ex machina to save himself, or kick the can further down the story, and hope readers forget about the complications.

Going back to Lyssa, it is written in lore that she cares about humans. She thinks differently from the other gods. If Anet says the Six left the world to let humans fend for themselves, Lyssa is the only person who’d probably step back in while the others would be focused on something else.

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

She thinks differently from the other gods. If Anet says the Six left the world to let humans fend for themselves, Lyssa is the only person who’d probably step back in while the others would be focused on something else.

While Lyssa’s the only one with a known history of defying the other gods to remain with humans, she’s certainly not the only one attached to them. Dwayna is practically defined by compassion. Kormir was a Tyrian human, who made clear at the end of Nightfall that she’d watch out for her allies. Until this last episode, Grenth was the only god to have recent contact with Tyria.

It’s impossible to say for sure given how little we know, but with we have to work with, Balthazar and Melandru sound like the only gods who would ignore humanity for the sake of a bigger picture.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

The Six left the human world, yet their powers are still felt. That, coming from Anet, indicates that just being in the Mists doesn’t mean their magic is contained. Think of radiation from a nuclear rod. You put it in a normal plastic air tight container, and the energy still goes through. I feel magic from the gods acts in this sense. They’re on another plain of existence, and yet magic coming from them passes through dimensions. Going off this idea is where I believe that the Elder Dragons can in fact consume a part of the Six’s powers.

The power of the gods is felt in what they did before they left and in the power they had already invested in what they left behind. This includes humanity itself – humans appear to have divine racial skills because humans have a portion of the divinity of the gods (see the Gate of Madness mission dialogue). What we’ve been told is that the gods have not directly influenced events in Tyria since Kormir’s ascension… until LS3.

You’ve also ignored my previous point – the dragons aren’t even draining magic from Tyria at a rate that is greater than replenishment. It’s a pretty big stretch to say that they’re then able to drain the gods to almost nothing through some tenuous link to Tyria that probably doesn’t even exist.

Going back to Lyssa, it is written in lore that she cares about humans. She thinks differently from the other gods. If Anet says the Six left the world to let humans fend for themselves, Lyssa is the only person who’d probably step back in while the others would be focused on something else.

It’s possible that she thinks differently, but caring about humans is not the difference. While the gods were still intervening, Dwayna intervened to help individual humans a few times (there are even a couple of quests involving avatars of Dwayna in GW1 on this theme). Kormir was human, so presumably cares about them. Grenth was possibly motivated by caring about what happens to humans in the afterlife. And that’s just off the top of my head.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

Queen Jenna identity [spoilers]

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Posted by: maxwelgm.4315

maxwelgm.4315

Too bad raids are so inaccessible. You wouldn’t turn a second eye to Jennah’s shielding if you went through Xera’s twisted maze. Mesmers in general have been (lorewise) grossly overpowered in relation to GW1, and I see no reason for Jennah having to be someone else rather than just being herself (an overpowered mesmer).