This might be just my fantasy but id like to share.
When mursaat past through to the mists, Menzies has seen an oppurtunity and made a deal with mursaat on beating balthazar.
But mursaat being mursaat they backstab menzies while they are about to win against balthazar and take both of their powers.
Balthazar gets throwed in prison of mursaat like lazarus the dire who must have became friends over the years?(who knows right?)
Then something happens and in the end balthazar fights his way out?
Balthazar, the guy who has lost his brother, friend and powers to mursaat, then goes to the tyria acting as lazarus-his friend.So where is the intervention of other gods? Where is lyssa with her mirror?
Other gods might not like a guy with anger issues but lyssa being a bit two sided helps balthazar to atleast live as a normal mortal or to trick everyone?
Might be that after mursaat took menzies’s and balthazar’s powers,other gods might have to fight against mursaat and not being able to help any other than themselves.Balthazar lost his ultimate opposite, his brother.
Thats why he doesnt feel like war is important anymore.
Because a war needs two sides.(Shoot me(i dont know how realistic this all is))
Given current lore, the mursaat would have traversed the Mists in 3,000 BE at the latest. However, the oldest record of the Six Gods is about 1,500 years later (Forgotten arrived in 1,769 BE from the Mists; likely as servants of the Six then too).
Not to say the gods could’t be that much older, however I’d argue Balthazar and Menzies are not given the state of Balthazar’s father during his arrival on Tyria – being a non-decaying (by all indication) severed head. Depending on whether Balthazar and/or Menzies began demigod like Grenth and/or which parent between the two were shared, this could indicate that Balthazar wasn’t very old at this point.
There are a lot of variables, but if we follow the notion presented that Balthazar was not born a god but rose to godhood (this notion presented by the fact that a singular god’s power when released destroys the current world and nearby ones, indicating that if Balthazar was born a god rather than demigod he’d have to have two dead god parents or one of those two divine parents never once playing any significant role in Tyria and Tyrian records never mention them and it was Balthazar’s father’s death that created the supposed calamity the Six and humans escaped, ultimately unlikely IMO) then either his father or his mother would have been the god and the other mortal. If the father was mortal, then Balthazar could have been no more than 60 at the time (though he looks more 30s/40s now, imo, but who knows maybe gods can ‘choose their age’ though that would make Grenth appearing as an old man to be fairly odd given his Orrian statues’ youthful appearance); on the other hand if his father was the god then we cannot really say what his age is.
Thus it’s kind of a 50/50 for Menzies and Balthazar to both be 1,500+ years old by the time they arrived on Tyria. It seems both from Balthazar’s persona and what little we know of his family that, until Grenth, he was the youngest god (though maybe Lyssa is younger, given her origins are explicitly in-universe “unknown”).
More importantly to your theory though, it would be impossible for the mursaat to overthrow Balthazar or for Balthazar and Lazarus to become friends because Balthazar’s decline in power occurs post-GW1, and the mursaat were wiped out all down to Lazarus, who was split between the aspects, by that point.
Lastly, Balthazar is not uninterested in war. He just sees no honor in war anymore, compared to his constant teachings in GW1. There’s a very stark difference. Given the line right after his line about no honor in war, he talks about “the glory of battle” so it seems he still loves fighting as much as before, he just no longer see it as being something of honor to fight in.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
TBH, I’m not sure if that was really Lyssa’s mirror. I mean, I don’t think that an illusion made by the goddess of illusions herself would shatter from a trap we set up in the space of about a minute.
You can always beat brute force with trickery. That’s effectively what we did – by exposing the type of magic to its fatal flaw. The metaphorical Achilles’ Heel of all illusions, if you will.
Plus, made by a god or not, it was a mere object, and just because the maker was powerful doesn’t mean the object should be as powerful as the maker.
As in they left behind some artifacts. This old line, if I recall, is in reference to the statues of Orr and nothing else. There is nothing to make this “power felt in Tyria” to be a direct connection to the gods’ power that allows one to siphon and even drain the gods.
OK, are we really sure we can state that so matter-of-factly? I’ve not seen it as explicitly confirmed anywhere, or maybe you can direct me to it? Because, sure enough, here is Balthazar all of a sudden in the latest episode, so while the Gods left all that time ago, where did they go to? Could they not have been in a place of proximity which allowed them to be exposed?
Regarding Balthazar’s exposure to Primordus in setting up his assault on him, it makes sense what you underline the Elder Dragons somehow cannot consume or absorb the Gods’ magic.
“They” is often used to refer to a singular, gender neutral or unknown, individual. It is considered more polite than saying “it” in such a case where the speaker doesn’t want to use “he” or “she”.
This is far from uncommon.Besides, the Shadow Army is a they.
Yes, I’m aware of its possible forms, but the way it is stated, and the way you would expect Balthazar to describe his strife with his half-brother, would it not be more plausible to have him describe that power struggle as ‘he’… I mean, how often do you run around saying ‘they’ when it’s really one adversary + his minions/army.
When faced with Scarlet and her army, would you not have described it as going to war on her, rather than use the term ‘they’. The Shadow Army, in similar respect, is nothing without its commander, Menzies, which is why I feel Balthazar should have been referring to his opponent as ‘him’, if it was really him.
I guess I’m placing too much emphasis on some choice of words if other things point to Balthazar’s old adversary; and maybe even “dimmed my light” could be a direct, blatant clue to namely the shadow army right there?
His lack of caring about Tyria is rather proof that the other gods are not working with him, I’d say, given that Lyssa, Dwayna, and Melandru (and very likely Kormir and possibly Grenth) would all very much care about Tyria and its inhabitants – far more than the potentially xenophobe Balthazar.
Though, possible unaware what might be the use of her mirror, Lyssa seems to be involved to some extent, either having given some consent to or been lied to by Balthazar, because as a human mesmer you learn from interacting with the broken mirror that. However, I somehow doubt how Lyssa would fall for a lie.. maybe another God, but not her.
The design contains Lyssa’s signature sigils, indicating that it was hers. She must have helped Balthazar for some reason known only to her.
TBH, I’m not sure if that was really Lyssa’s mirror. I mean, I don’t think that an illusion made by the goddess of illusions herself would shatter from a trap we set up in the space of about a minute.
Well, if it wasn’t, then the writers are up kitten creek given the lines you get from interacting with the broken mirror as a human mesmer. See my post above.
OK, are we really sure we can state that so matter-of-factly? I’ve not seen it as explicitly confirmed anywhere, or maybe you can direct me to it?
Wasn’t stating it matter of factly, but rather if I remember that’s what it was about. I believe it was explained at some point but can’t recall.
Because, sure enough, here is Balthazar all of a sudden in the latest episode, so while the Gods left all that time ago, where did they go to? Could they not have been in a place of proximity which allowed them to be exposed?
We’ve long known that the gods were capable of returning to Tyria, [some did momentarily](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Karei). We also are told that the gods are not in the Mists according to the foremost priestess of Grenth who is capable of summoning souls from the Underworld. so they must be beyond it, in another world.
But your two questions contradict each other. Elder Dragons are unable to influence the Mists on their own as shown by Jormag’s need to use havrouns to reach there (read: anywhere outside of Tyria), so if the gods left Tyria, they’re outside of the Elder Dragons’ reach.
Primordus, above all, do not utilize outside sources. Ergo, it is the most impossible for Primordus to have taken a god’s power.
Yes, I’m aware of its possible forms, but the way it is stated, and the way you would expect Balthazar to describe his strife with his half-brother, would it not be more plausible to have him describe that power struggle as ‘he’… I mean, how often do you run around saying ‘they’ when it’s really one adversary + his minions/army.
When faced with Scarlet and her army, would you not have described it as going to war on her, rather than use the term ‘they’. The Shadow Army, in similar respect, is nothing without its commander, Menzies, which is why I feel Balthazar should have been referring to his opponent as ‘him’, if it was really him.
I guess I’m placing too much emphasis on some choice of words if other things point to Balthazar’s old adversary; and maybe even “dimmed my light” could be a direct, blatant clue to namely the shadow army right there?
ArenaNet is clearly wanting there to be mystery, which there would be none if Balthazar simply said “he” even if the context of what Balthazar knows would make it more clear for Balthazar to use “he” or even “she” instead of “they”. Balthazar could also be referring to the alliance Menzies was a part of, rather than just Menzies himself – which at this point to our knowledge is “just” Menzies and Dhuum now (unless there’s a new leader of the torment demons to replace the Dreadspawn Maw).
Though, possible unaware what might be the use of her mirror, Lyssa seems to be involved to some extent, either having given some consent to or been lied to by Balthazar, because as a human mesmer you learn from interacting with the broken mirror that. However, I somehow doubt how Lyssa would fall for a lie.. maybe another God, but not her
I agree that Lyssa seems somehow involved, but she undoubtably is not sharing Balthazar’s mentality of “Tyria is of no concern”.
ArenaNet is clearly wanting there to be mystery, which there would be none if Balthazar simply said “he” even if the context of what Balthazar knows would make it more clear for Balthazar to use “he” or even “she” instead of “they”. Balthazar could also be referring to the alliance Menzies was a part of, rather than just Menzies himself – which at this point to our knowledge is “just” Menzies and Dhuum now
I don’t think this is a case of ANET going to such lengths to make it a mystery. It would be mysterious enough if he simply used “he”, “she” or whatever else. Yes, if he had used “he”, the most likely character he’d be referring to would have been Menzies, but it still leaves room for other pre-existing male characters or even new characters. The word “they” as you are suggesting would make sense if he didn’t know who had wrong him. But he does know who took his power. He knows because he’s on Tyria to get more power and go right back to settle the matter using his newly gathered power. I find it hard to believe that someone or something stole a god’s power without the god even realizing it. When Balthazar says “they”, he is clearly referring to a group. Whether the group is Menzies + Shadow Army, Menzies + Dhuum alliance, some of the other Six even, a completely new group etc. remains to be seen, but it is definitely more than one character that he is referring to.
I would disagree. If they used “he” then we have a more narrow potential for who weakened Balthazar, specifically it would be an individual male.
By saying “they”, people have theorized not just Menzies, but also the other Six Gods may have weakened him, or the Elder Dragons – if Balthazar had used “he” or “she” or even “it” then those theories would not come to be.
Thus by having it as “they”, ArenaNet created more potential lines of thought for theorycrafting. Which they’ve repeatedly said they love watching develop.
All the same, the choice of pronoun is definitely not proof that he is referring to a group.
Hmmm… totally random theory. “They” is the Charr. Say, the Foefire is rooted in Balthazar’s magic (eternal zeal for fighting enemies, divine fire, it’s sort of his motif), and Rytlock in trying to break the curse somehow drained Balthazar’s power instead, not only causing the events of LS3, but also allowing Menzies’ faction to win the conflict in FoW. So the last episode will be in Ascalon, with a ticked off deity looking for revenge against the Charr, as a last act on Tyria prior to retaking FoW.
That feels a bit too recent of an event for Balthazar to have learned so much about the secret ongoings of Tyria (Lazarus’ state of being particularly). Possible, though.
But honestly, I’d think the Foefire is more likely tied to Dhuum. Endless ghostly torment and forced to relive their last day alive over and over for eternity sounds more like unjust god of death than the once-semi-just god of war.
That feels a bit too recent of an event for Balthazar to have learned so much about the secret ongoings of Tyria (Lazarus’ state of being particularly). Possible, though.
But honestly, I’d think the Foefire is more likely tied to Dhuum. Endless ghostly torment and forced to relive their last day alive over and over for eternity sounds more like unjust god of death than the once-semi-just god of war.
Except that Dhuum hated any form of life after death, whether undeath or resurrection, so I don’t think he’d be pro-Foefire. More likely, he’d just want to consume all of those delicious souls. While Balthazar does have a history of converting spirits into warriors fighting in an eternal war.
Considering that the portal opened up into ‘somewhere in the Mists’, it’s possible that it has had an influence – maybe, for instance, the portal opened into the Fissure of Woe, and that ended up benefiting Menzies in some way that tipped the balance. You’re right in that the timeframe is pretty close, but there has been two years between the releases (and thus, by ArenaNet’s current policy, about two years had passed in Tyria as well) – it’s possible that that is enough.
Ghosts are neither undeath nor resurrection. What I got from all the lore about Dhuum is that he’s a sadistic kitten who punishes those who don’t deserve the punishment they’re given (thus “unjust”), and that’s what the Foefire effectively does.
We also know that Dhuum is very hypocritical when it comes to the things he hates. He’ll use them himself, but not allow others to do so. And he certainly isn’t against using ghosts as minions either.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Something tells me that Balthazar has been ousted by Menzies or another entity who defeated him and claimed the role of God of War, but in a not honourable way, hence precipitating him toward his current actions. At least, it would make sense of his behaviour.
This is my theory too. His line “They abated me, they dimmed might light… But now they will see me.” indicates a loss of godhood as well.
Whether it was Menzies+Dhuum coalition, or the Six Gods, or some new, unknown entity is unclear. But it does seem that Balthazar has been usurped but, like Dhuum and unlike Abaddon, survived his overthrow.
This event clearly demoralized Balthazar and made him loose faith in his old beliefs – not just about honor in combat, but also the worth of his followers’ lives (he was a very pro-human god in the past, and cared greatly about human life as shown with the story of Kaolai, the Scriptures of Balthazar in GW1, and the Orrian History Scrolls). He’s become clearly apathetic and hellbent on revenge, regardless of the cost to those around him.
I agree with all you’ve said in this thread Konig. One little thing to add to evidence pile for Menzies is that his sword made an appearance in the gem shop. I honestly don’t think that it was a red herring. My gut just tells me that Menzies has taken Balthazar’s place by force or by admission by the other gods.
The other gods would not be in favor of him harming Tyrians. Dwayna loves humans and Kormir was human. I am sure they for certain would not be pleased with Balthazar’s current actions.
I believe we will be seeing at least some of the other gods in the future.
Ghosts are neither undeath nor resurrection. What I got from all the lore about Dhuum is that he’s a sadistic kitten who punishes those who don’t deserve the punishment they’re given (thus “unjust”), and that’s what the Foefire effectively does.
We also know that Dhuum is very hypocritical when it comes to the things he hates. He’ll use them himself, but not allow others to do so. And he certainly isn’t against using ghosts as minions either.
being a ghost is a form of existence after death that isn’t life. It’s undeath. Mad King Thorn is technically a ghost, albeit a particularly powerful one, and he’s concerned…
What I get from it is that his ‘unjustness’ is that he simply consumes them. It’s not explicitly stated that I’ve found on a quick search (I thought it was, but nevertheless), however, many of his many titles relate to a concept of ‘final death’ or ‘oblivion’ – bringing the soul to a final end. His method of gaining power is connected to this – it is death in the underworld that empowers him, which gives him further incentive to just consume souls rather than granting them an afterlife.
Regarding his minions… I’ve generally regarded them as being demons that have characteristics of being undead rather than undead per se. There is some precedent to this: the partially-formed demons of the Stygian Veil, for instance (they don’t have vulnerability to holy, but then, neither to Dream Riders or Mindblades). That said, it is possible that Dhuum transforms his followers while destroying all other souls that come under his domain. It’s also possible that he regards processes that remove all trace of the soul’s original personality as a ‘final death’.
being a ghost is a form of existence after death that isn’t life. It’s undeath.
It’s more of being dead than undead. Undeath is a “partial return to life”, or rather giving the dead a semblance of living; excluding game mechanics (whether video game or tabletop), undead are virtually always mobile corpses – being neither dead nor alive. Ghosts are dead, ergo are not undead.
Mad King Thorn is technically a ghost, albeit a particularly powerful one, and he’s concerned…
That would undoubtably be due to Dhuum’s whole “unjust punishment” side.
A final death can easily be part of such punishments, but there’s plenty of implication that Dhuum did more than simply make souls cease to be.
His method of gaining power is connected to this – it is death in the underworld that empowers him, which gives him further incentive to just consume souls rather than granting them an afterlife.
Nearby deaths and consuming souls are very different things, however, and not all killed are souls anyways – in fact, the majority of Dhuum’s servants are living demons.
It’s more of being dead than undead. Undeath is a “partial return to life”, or rather giving the dead a semblance of living; excluding game mechanics (whether video game or tabletop), undead are virtually always mobile corpses – being neither dead nor alive. Ghosts are dead, ergo are not undead.
In my experience, in basically every setting, ghosts (and other incorporeal undead such as wraiths, which are essentially a specific kind of ghost) are a subclass of undead. I’m pretty sure Adelbern has been referred to as an undead king, for instance. “Undead” is basically anything that was alive once, is not alive now, and isn’t “properly” dead.
That would undoubtably be due to Dhuum’s whole “unjust punishment” side.
A final death can easily be part of such punishments, but there’s plenty of implication that Dhuum did more than simply make souls cease to be.
Which implication is this? I’ll have to admit that I thought that there was something more solid saying that Dhuum destroyed souls than when I first raised it (although his titles are indicative of that), but there’s also nothing solid saying that he does something else either.
About the only real indication is Dhuum’s minions sending souls to the Realm of Torment, but this seems to be more of part of a strategy of supporting Abaddon (and possibly Mallyx after Abaddon’s fall) than an indication of what his ultimate goal is. Letting the souls continue to exist for a longer period of time in order to empower an ally could simply be a necessary compromise in Dhuum’s eyes.
Nearby deaths and consuming souls are very different things, however, and not all killed are souls anyways – in fact, the majority of Dhuum’s servants are living demons.
Which essentially just makes his attempts to control the Underworld a win-win for Dhuum.
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